Let it burn

[Mortos]

The obscenely rich CEO and corporate honchos are sweating. They should be. They have ripped off the American people, shipped our jobs overseas in order to fatten their bursting bank accounts, and played fast and loose with the rules, paying the prostitutes in Washington to change the laws protecting consumers and investors whenever possible to squeeze another billion or so into their pockets.

The American people carry responsibility for this mess also, living above their means. Buying houses they couldn't afford and hocking everything. We have no savings. We have nothing but debt accumulated by buying every useless lead tainted plastic product sold to us by third world dictatorships.

It is time to pay for the recklessness of 20+ years of republican deregulation and corporate boondoggle. The Ponzi scheme is crashing down and it is going to affect us all.

It won't affect everyone. The poor, the only thing grows under republican rule, will get by fine. They are used to having nothing and making meager dollars stretch. The shrinking middle class will pay by having to live within their financial means. Most for the first time in their lives. The rich will be fine, they are obscenely rich and even if the lose 75% of their money they will still have more than 90% of U.S. citizens will ever dream of.

It's time to readjust our priorities. I hear people won't be able to buy a new car or computer. Good. There was a time when people SAVED up for purchases and bought them with cash and because they did, they demanded high quality and longevity in those products.

Maybe after we all wake up and realize how broken the American financial system is, we will take action and hold people accountable. All of the scandals involving corporations and not one high profile CEO has actually served time in prison. That needs to change.

The American public has become reactive and are only prodded into action when no other option is available. The failure of our government, our financial institutions and our lifestyle may be the only thing that can prod us into some sort of long term responsible change that holds people, government and businesses accountable.

It may bring a return to the support for unions, reasonable CEO pay, regulation of industry, stronger familes, more ecological lifestyles, savings, accountability and a stronger middle class.

There is a reason people who grew up in the depression are referred to as the "greatest generation". They grew up under adversity and never forgot the lessons that provided. Maybe we all need a dose of reality in order to change our flawed expectations. A temporary bail out of the same cheaters and con-men who got us into this mess is not the solution it will just delay the inevitable.

Let's pull off the band aid, pull back the curtain reveal the huckster and deal with the consequences whatever they may be. Americans used to be tough. We are going to have to get tough again.

[tinrobot]

1. Do you let your house burn to spite the arsonist?

Just sayin...

[azurnoir]

2. Unfortunately

all the water has been allocated for the arsonists.

[lonestarnot]

3. No, but if their houses catch with flying cinders, maybe some of their

equities will thrown into the water pot. Why all of ours and none of theirs?

[TexasObserver]

6. Wrong analogy. Do you let your house burn or water your neighbor's big lawn?

This bailout money is not going to save your burning house. It's intended to save a handful of big companies that don't deserve or need to be saved, and it's to be done with money that burdens everyone.

And exactly how would allowing one's house to burn spite an arsonist? That doesn't even make sense, even if one wanted to agree with you.

[annabanana]

7. Right. If they want money for Wall Street I say fine.. IF

They make sure that this batch of clowns are not allowed to play with anyone else's money, ever again. I say "Arm the SEC"

[tinrobot]

8. Let it burn... that's what the thread is titled.

The original post suggests that it's our economy that's burning, and we should let it burn/collapse to spite greedy people and teach them all a lesson (apparently, by causing another great depression.)

I don't think creating another great depression will teach greedy people much of a lesson at all. A depression would be just another crisis -- like the Iraq War, Katrina, and all the other crises that the greedy have profited from in the past.

I say bail out homeowners and regulate the crap out of Wall St -- but don't let it burn.

[TexasObserver]

11. No, it's that neighbor who is careless, whose property is burning.

That's why "let it burn" makes sense. You don't say "let it burn" about your own house!

Again, you missed the analogy entirely.

[LeftishBrit]

14. But supposing that if your neighbour's house is allowed to burn, it will burn yours as well..

and spread to burn all the other houses on the street?

[TZ]

16. Hey but if that neighbor is rich or invests in the stock market

They obviously deserve to suffer...:sarcasm:
Fucking moronic OP. Does NOBODY learn about the depression in school anymore?

[TexasObserver]

19. This ain't the Depression.

It's not even 1987, so come back outside, Chicken Little. An acorn hit you on the head and you panicked.

[TZ]

21. Read about the Depression

ALOT of the causes are there. We've already started to see bank runs..One of THE causes of the depression. FIVE BANKS have failed in the last 3-5 days. IFs thats not a danger signal I don't know what it is. No this is not 1987--its far worse..And I'm usually NOT a chicken little HOWEVER..I am a realist.

[TexasObserver]

23. The DOW lost 22% of its value in ONE day in 1987. Yesterday it lost 7%.

And it has regained over 2% today. This is NOTHING like the Great Depression. This isn't even on the scale of the 1987 collapse.

This bailout is a boondoggle. The credit crisis is a fraud. The crisis is bad loans and securities, and when they're not paid, the lenders go under, as they should. It is insane to save the bad companies that drove themselves off the cliff.

[TZ]

31. I'm calling bullshit

We didn't have massive bank collapses in 1987. Frankly in 1987 we had a market correction. Overinflated prices coming back to earth.
AND if you pay attention to INTERNATIONAL NEWS you will see that its having ripple effects around the globe..If you think global destabilization of the banking industry is a good thing than nuts on you.
Maybe the best analogy is 1991 recession..BUT it doesn't have the threat of massive inflationary backlash that this does. You know a lot of countries have gone through this. Why ANYONE thinks the US is immune to economic disaster is beyond me. We aren't there yet..but we will be shortly.
Oh also not found in 1987--high energy prices, high food prices..etc. Take 1970's era energy issues and 1991 unemployment issues and the Savings and Loan Crises and you MIGHT have where we are NOW.

[TexasObserver]

33. You don't know enough to call bullshit.

The DOW dropped 22% in one day in 1987. FACT.

The DOW dropped 7% yesterday. FACT.

The DOW Regained over 2% today. FACT.

The BAILOUT in 1989 for failed banks and S&Ls was almost $300 billion, in 1989 dollars. FACT.


You're uninformed and unworthy of my further time. You don't know enough to discuss this topic intelligently, as you've proved.

[TexasObserver]

18. That's the reason you need to save your WATER to stop the fire from spreading to your assets.

We should not save bad companies. Let them burn. Let them be dismantled, liquidated, and forever remembered as that sorry company that couldn't make a profit.

[TZ]

22. Well I hope you don't have the misfortune for working for one of those bad companies!

WTF is wrong with you?..WANTING people to be unemployed? Are you sure you are on the right board?

Edit: If anyone wants to see what social darwinism truly is..read the post I replied to...

[TexasObserver]

25. That's lame, really, really lame.

The only jobs you will save are Paulson and a few Wall Street hacks. Sell crazy somewhere else, lady.

[tinrobot]

24. You sound like a conservative

Let the market play itself out. Let the bad companies fail, regardless of the consequences.

That's pretty much what Hoover did in 1929.

[TexasObserver]

28. You sound like someone who knows nothing about economics.

Because you are.

Invoking Hoover now? Grow up. The one thing that binds most of you clamoring for a bailout is your complete lack of economic or historical knowledge. You don't know what Hoover did, and that's obvious. The problem wasn't Hoover. It was Coolidge, who came before him. Hoover wanted to put in place programs FDR eventually passed or revised.

Hoover had been in office only a few months when the markets crashed, and they crashed not because of Hoover, but because of the excesses of the previous 5 years.

[tinrobot]

29. Hoover didn't use federal money until late in his term.

During most of his term, Hoover opposed legislative intervention and relied on voluntary measures. Some of his ideas were actually good, such as the voluntary organization of the National Credit Corporation in 1931, which had larger banks extend loans to smaller banks. It's kind of what people are arguing here - let the financial companies work it out voluntarily amongst themselves. (i.e. let them crash and burn or let them buy each other out without government help.)

Hoover's voluntary measures, however, didn't really work -- because the solvent banks didn't want to extend loans to failing banks. Only after Hoover helped form the Reconstruction Finance Corp in 1932 as a federal company using taxpayer money, did the failing banks actually get some real relief. The failing banks became solvent only after taxpayer money was infused into the system. And, yes, it took him longer because the Republicans did try to block Hoover's federal intervention (just like conservative Republicans did yesterday.)

So, yes, Hoover did do something, but it took him almost 4 years to get significant government money involved. During that time, the depression deepened. It was only when he infused government money into the system did the banks start becoming more stable and the rate of depression start slowing (though it took Roosevelt another decade and a war to finally lift it.)

So, that's the history. In the end of Hoover's term it was government money that finally helped the financial system recover. I'll leave it up to you to draw the parallels to today's situation.

[BuyingThyme]

26. Jesus died for arsons.

[stray cat]

4. Let us burn meaning you, your family and neighbors - I fear its a letter of credit economy

and the wealthiest have a much greater safety net than most of the rest of us

[SIMPLYB1980]

5. Letting it burn out of control is not an option.

It will lead to a bigger disaster than I think you realize. emo.

[Mortos]

9. When will we take responsibility for what we have done and allowed to be done

to our economy. What is the worst thing that could happen? That is what hasn't been explained. We have all been living in a bubble of expectations and in the myth of a strong economy based on speculation and greed. We have trillions of dollars in unpaid debt. It has to be paid at some point or defaulted on. I think the American people are strong enough to get through this and it will ultimately make us stronger.

Your analogy of an arsonist is wrong. Do we build a house of oily rags and dry tinder and fix the cracks by packing in napalm instead of letting the dangerous structure burn completely down and start over again?

[SIMPLYB1980]

10. I made no analogy to an arsonist, don't know where that came from.

I'm thinking about those people who already need more than the upper middle and the rich. The upper middle and rich people will be just fine during the coming depression. The pore will be hit the hardest. If there is a total collapse Millions of Americans will die of starvation, simple as that.

[hogwyld]

12. Not if we eat the rich. n/t

[LeftishBrit]

20. No; I do NOT think that most people will be strong enough to survive a real economic disaster

without serious damage. And those who will be strongest to survive are the already-rich, followed by tough, physically healthy young adults with no caring responsibilities for children or elderly relatives - and of course those who just happen to be lucky.

And this particular fire if unchecked could spread over the world. It's everyone's problem, not just the Americans.

The idea that hard times will make people stronger, and that forcing the population to 'take responsibility' rather than helping them out is a good thing, is the very ESSENCE of the right-wing, Thatcherite, Reaganite, Hooverite, attitude that I have always fought against with all my passion. Saving people from suffering is *more important* than forcing people to take responsibility. There, I've said it, and that's precsiely what makes me a bleeding-heart liberal. Even if the 'fat cats' do suffer as a result (and they won't, compared with others) it's NOT worth the suffering that it will cause everyone else.

As I've said elsewhere, I think that massive economic changes are needed. I would like my country to go back to a much more progressive taxation system and to much more emphasis on industry and public services and less on Big Money. Although the details of what the USA does are less of my business than what we do, we are all in this together, and I certainly think that something like the Bernie Sanders plan is much better than the Paulson plan. But the concept just 'letting it burn' and expecting individuals to 'take responsibility' and be 'strong' enough to get through it (no, the elderly and ill and disabled and young children and plain unlucky will NOT be) truly horrifies me. I am a leftwinger just because such attitudes horrified me when practiced by the Thatcherites and horrify me today.

[iiibbb]

13. You are funny. You think the muckity mucks are sufferring in this?

They'll lose... sure... but they have piles of it.

It is hilarious that you think that Joe Investment Banker is going to be in the soup lines after all of this. They've hedged. They've got gold. The own their homes.


They will barely feel this.

[PVnRT]

15. You think the wealthy will pay for this?

If so, you're naive as hell, but that's a common strain on DU these days.

[TZ]

17. I like the we are tough, we can handle this idiocy as well!

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it...:banghead:

[tinrobot]

27. I thought WWII created the greatest generation.

There is a reason people who grew up in the depression are referred to as the "greatest generation". They grew up under adversity and never forgot the lessons that provided.

Don't forget the great depression was also global - and that the economic crisis caused the rise of fascism in Europe, which lead directly to the Second World War.

So, in addition to another great depression, are you advocating third world war as well?

[Jed Dilligan]

30. What does it mean for people with large debts,

who service them faithfully but don't have any assets (like a home) to show for it? Will we ever get anything out of the years we've put in to keep our credit good? What happens when our creditors go under?

[LanternWaste]

32. I'm poor and it's damn well affecting me.

I'm poor and it's damn well affecting me-- in the last six weeks, I've watched my 401 retirement package lose $650.00. In only SIX WEEKS!

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I get the part time job across the street at the liquor store so as to keep any realistic chance at retiring before I'm 95 solvent.

And that raise I'm up for in November-- I've already been told that it will be a whopping $1.00/hr instead of the $1.75 I'd earlier been led to believe I'd receive.

The car purchase I wanted to make to replace my twenty year gas-guzzling POS hog with something more environmentally friendly certainly wont happen any time soon.


Unless of course you think that my gross income of 24k/year, and my 750 sq/ft apartment places me in the realm of "obscenely rich"




Faux-populists talk a good game consisting of invalid and sweeping generalities until there's no extra money to pay for this month's internet connection or upgrade to the newest I-Pod. Then it's "Screw my ideals! I'll screw over whatever I have to to play grand Theft Auto online tonight..."

From what I've observed over the years, the people who first tell us to rip off the band aid are usually the first ones to cry when it hurts more than they thought....