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Bailout Bill: Congress Commands AUTOMATIC STAY of court-PROVEN Constitutional Violations!!!!!!

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:07 AM
Original message
Bailout Bill: Congress Commands AUTOMATIC STAY of court-PROVEN Constitutional Violations!!!!!!
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 12:20 AM by Land Shark
Conclusions:

1. The Sec. of Treasury can violate all statutes with impunity, & no one can sue.

2. Even if you prove a constitutional violation in court, Congress stays any order in your favor PROVING A CONSTITUTIONAL VIOLATION until the secretary is done appealing -- or doesn't want the stay.

3. So, in effect, after you take a Constitutional whipping for months or years in appellate courts, and if you finally win in the trial court and the final court of appeal, you will get no money -- just an equitable order for the Secretary to stop violating your CONSTITUTIONAL rights (an equitable injunction).

4. But, even then, he can always keep on violating your statutory rights, forever.

As a practical matter,

Congress is staying, or stopping actions even where constitutional violations are PROVEN. In fact, that's the ONLY time the stay in section 4 below applies, and only Constitutional claims are allowed.



Read it for yourself, and weep, comparing especially section 2(A) with section 4, (square bracketed items are my shortenings or explanations):




Section 119: Judicial Review and Related Matters



(a) JUDICIAL REVIEW.
(1) STANDARD.—Actions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act shall be subject to chapter 7 of title 5, United States Code, including that such final actions shall be held unlawful and set aside if found to be arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion, or not in accordance with law. {N.B. only equitable actions challenging administrative agency decisions under Title 5, section 7, are allowed, and not claims for money damages. (Title 5, section 7 also provides that its relief is further limited under any other terms provided by any other law, including this new bill, if passed…) so the limitations on ‘equitable relief’ below constitute limitations on the entire field of judicial relief available}

(2) LIMITATIONS ON EQUITABLE RELIEF.

(A) INJUNCTION.—No injunction or other form of equitable relief shall be issued against the Secretary for actions pursuant to section 101, 102, 106, and 109, other than to remedy a violation of the Constitution.



(B) TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER. – {If allowable for constitutional violation, it has to be} granted or denied by the court within three days of the date of the request.

(C) PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION.—{If allowable for constitutional violation, it has to be} considered and granted or denied by the court on an expedited basis {…}

(D) PERMANENT INJUNCTION.—{If allowable for constitutional violation, it has to be} considered and granted or denied by the court on an expedited basis. Whenever possible, the court shall consolidate trial on the merits with any hearing on a request for a preliminary injunction, {…}

(3) LIMITATION ON ACTIONS BY PARTICIPATING COMPANIES.—No action or claims may be brought against the Secretary by any person that divests its assets with respect to its participation in a program under this Act, except as provided in paragraph (1), other than as expressly provided in a contract with the Secretary. {i.e. unless the Secretary agrees to be sued in writing, and signs it, and gets some consideration in return for that, the necessity of a valid contract}

(4) STAYS.—

Any injunction or other form of equitable relief issued against the Secretary

for actions pursuant to section 101, 102, 106, and 109, {N.B. and ONLY constitutional violations are allowed to be heard, per Section 2(A) above]

shall be automatically stayed.

The stay shall be lifted {only if the Secretary doesn’t promptly appeal, seeking a stay}.

READ THE ENTIRE BILL HERE: https://financialservices.house.gov/essa/ayo08c04_xml.pdf

Just don't get excited by a provision that giveth, until you've read the parts that taketh away....



Now, I haven't fully analyzed the remainder of the 117 page bill, but i know some will point to 'transparency' provisions and 'reports to Congress'. Perhaps YOU, dear reader, have the entire Congress in your pocket and can move them to get you some personal relief, provided Congress has not delegated and abdicated all its authority in that area.

But I would emphasize this:

All the "transparency" (information) in the world is useless without the power to DO SOMETHING about it. In fact, oftentimes when someone feels they have real absolute power, they FLAUNT what they're gonna do, when they're going to do it, and how, KNOWING FULL WELL that you've got no recourse. So "transparency", alone, is like having a clean windshield, it allows you to see the oncoming train. But if you are powerless (without a gas pedal, brakes and steering wheel) to change the course of action or direction of the oncoming freight train, HOW GOOD DO YOU REALLY FEEL ABOUT "TRANSPARENCY"? You may rationally wish that you'd never know what hit you, rather than see the horror occur in slow motion, powerless to stop it....

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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'm ready to declare our entire government a terrorist organization. n/t
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endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. Wow!
:spray:
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
42. They say the same of you
;-)

:hi: agent Mike!
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. They have for some time
I'm just returning the favor.

:)
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
52. They're sure acting like mobsters will this bill. "Put it all in this bag, see,...."
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. Why would something
like that be in the bill?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. POWER GRAB
NT!

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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Because the jig is up, the Fed Reserve and related banking system is unconstitutional and we're
about to find that out as this crisis unravels and lifts the veil.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
43. The Federal Reserve IS unconstitutional!!! And so is this fucking bill!!!
:argh: :nuke: I'm SO FUCKING TIRED OF THIS BUNCH OF CROOKS OCCUPYING OUR LEGISLATURE!!

Are they trying to start a revolution BEFORE Nov. 4th so they can declare martial law and avoid regime change here at home?? I'm BEYOND furious at this mess!!
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you LS.
We are in the most dire of straits.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
6. What kind of scenario does this paint practically speaking?
:shrug:

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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
7. This applies to participating companies.
You are making it sound like a violation of individual rights. These clauses are there to protect US and OUR MONEY. Do you really not understand this, or are you just enjoying whipping up hysteria?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Nothing can make violation of Constitutional rights OK
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 12:34 AM by Land Shark
so, even if we accept your post as true and correct, why would you approve of this kind of power exercised against ANYBODY? Oh, to protect "our assets"? That's what you said, so you'd make one heckuva "good" business lawyer, out there violating the constitution to protect your clients assets, the constitution be damned....

Look, they flat out call the "oversight" board the FSOB. Everybody knows what SOB stands for, what do YOU think the "F" stands for?
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. Constitutional rights are the one thing protected aren't they?
No injunction or other form of equitable relief shall be issued against the Secretary for actions pursuant to section 101, 102, 106, and 109, other than to remedy a violation of the Constitution.


If there is a violation of the Constitution then an injunction or other form of equitable relief can be issued
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. exactly, but the point is that it's given, then immediately taken away via Stay
that's why it's said, the government giveth, the government taketh away. The automatic stay means that a ruling in favor of the constitution and against a violation of it doesn't go into force and effect for an instant -- the second the ruling is made, it's stayed.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. For three days. nt
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Wrong. Get a better lawyer. "unless the Secretary SEEKS a stay within three days"
in which case the automatic stay remains in effect.

I guess what you don't realize is that preservation of the STATUS QUO is a major consideration in stay decisions, so congress makes sure that the anti-constitutional status quo stays in force and the secretary is forced to change course.

Remember, at THIS point we're talking about, a federal judge has been convinced, which they hesitate to do, that the Constitution has been violated. At that point, the presumption is that the constitution really is being violated. In fact, that would be the legal fact of the matter. Except that the stay keeps it from mattering for even an instant.

I say "get a lawyer" above because the Secretary is extremely likely to keep the stay in force on appeal, given this clear congressional intent to not allow the trial judge's order or injunction to matter even for an instant.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. The automatic stay expires in three days.
If the Sec. wants it to last longer, he's got to go to the courts & prove that a stay is necessary. It's right there in the bill. If it's really a const. violation, which as you say fed. judges are hesitant to find, then the Tres. Sec has to overcome a huge burden to keep a stay in place. Of course he can appeal & drag it out, but that doesn't mean he'd win the appeal. And you've made it sound like this applies to ind. taxpayers, when it's pretty clear that it's meant to apply to Wall Street firms who want to use litigation to halt the bailouts. I don't like it, but I don't think it's imminent fascism either. And if it is unconstitutional, then it should be struck down.
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Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. It isn't explicitly stated as such. It could be used against the individuals
who in a year or more feel that the Sec didn't behave in the taxpayer's best interests.
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. "Taxpayer Standing" might be the issue you're getting at here....
In general, "standing" means that someone has to have a legally cognizable "injury" in order to sue.

Do the research, whoever things there's real recourse here, on "taxpayer standing" not in state courts, but in federal courts, and for this bill, and then get back to us.

$700billion is being taken from the taxpayers. Do you really think that such an EMERGENCY bill is going to allow taxpayers to tie the Treasury up in federal court over this issue?

"EMERGENCY" is like the uber-exception to just about every rule of law or Constitutional provision. THink "Clear and Present Danger" exception to the First Amendment, etc.....
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
8. I'm getting used to my new rogue nation status.
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Feels more like China everyday
where the law is just whatever the regional bully says it is.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
11. Oh, I'm sure they didn't mean anything BAD by it.
There you go, mistrusting politicians and thinking you know better than these very smart business people or else why would the President have chosen them for such important positions? I feel GOOD knowing the business of America is big business!

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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. ...
:rofl:
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Another FISA gift pak, this time for Wall Street.
All of Dumbya's co-conspirators are getting their quid pro quos, with Pelosi is signing the checks.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
14. Did these folks learn NOTHING about the consequences of rash acts on incomplete data?
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
16. Even Dodd's bill was lacking in real oversight.
Six days ago I wrote that simply getting reports is not the same as "oversight". This bill is turning out much worse in that those receiving the reports are Bush administration appointees, so no one's going to know what the heck Treasury is doing, much less be able to sue them. The only thing the House leadership seems concerned about is not having their fingerprints on any aspect of the implementation so that they can't be blamed. Their attitude seems to be to let the administration cause any amount of hardship for the public, so they can't be tied to it.

Will they find their consciences when no formerly middle class person can afford to send their child to college and millions of Baby Boomers who have been pushed out of the shrinking job market are starving on the streets because their retirement has been decimated by a crashed dollar?

To Senators Dodd's and Schumer's credit, their version made an effort to limit the damage to the public, calling for an "independent" oversight board, dropping the first installment to $150B (raised to $250B in this one), required rather than recommending mortgage relief, and said that an evaluation of effectiveness had to be made before any more money was spent. Sen. Dodd's plan required the Treasury Department to receive "contingent shares in the financial institution from which such assets are to be purchased equal in value to the purchase price of the assets to be purchased." The House changes are a nightmare.
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edwardian Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
18. If Congress is in violation of the Constitution
then we are not bound to obey their edicts. The social contract is BROKEN! I am not subject to the laws of a group of conspiratorial criminals and NEITHER ARE YOU! Americans are Americans only because of that "god-damn piece of paper". They have broken our agreement to uphold, protect and defend the Constitution. They ALL have to swear this same oath and they are now in obvious conflict and contradiction of their duties and rights. The time has come for "We, the people" to cast off this tyrannical yoke and costitute a new Republic dedicated to the proposition that all men/women are created equal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Acts in violation of the Constitution are VOID, that's true.
Heck, with the Administrative Procedure Act, acts in violation of those statutory procedures are routinely declared void. So, yes, we need to relearn that usurpations of authority and gross constitutional violations are void, nullities, they don't exist. We do not consent to such travesties of justice from what are sworn to be servants of the public and UP-HOLDERS of the Constitution.

Upholding is more than mere compliance, it's a reverence for and an extreme will to abide by, the limitations set out in the Constitution on government power.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
37. If it's unconstitutional,
then the Supreme Court can strike it down. That's the remedy.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
22. this plan is a no-go
fuck henry paulson and his absolute power.
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VoodooGuru Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
23. "Automatic Stay" is language from the bankruptcy code.
A "stay" is a pause in litigation. When you file bankruptcy, all actions against you are subject to the automatic stay, meaning all judicial proceedings against you are put on hold until your bankruptcy action is resolved.

It's not a power grab, dude. Chill. This automatic stay expires in three days, after which the Secretary must petition for a longer one from a court. It is NOT the same as having no recourse.

I've mentioned earlier that I'm a bookseller. But I was an attorney for 12 years before I got sick of it. ;)
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Since U brought it up, I was an atty for MORE than 12 years, till i got sick
but I never got "sick of IT" (the law) as you imply.

The automatic stay, as applied in bankruptcy law is a sweepingly powerful presumption that goes into effect upon filing bankruptcy to protect the debtor.

Creditors must APPLY to the court and show good cause why the stay should be lifted. Bankruptcy code provides reasons, limited ones, for lifting a stay. This bill provides no reasons that a party opposed to the SEcretary can rely on to make a motion to lift the stay.

A stay is also designed to preserve the status quo. The status quo is a sweeping powers for the Secretary.

THe law does NOT say that the automatic stay expires, it directly implies that it continues if the Secretary appeals within three days and seeks continuance of the stay. A constitutional violation that is being stayed would almost have to involve something so fundamental to the secretary's approach that it would bring the bailout process to a partial or total screeching halt. The appellate court is highly likely to PRESERVE THE STATUS QUO, especially since the secretary will argue that irreparable damage to his plan will occur from a major shift in strategy, and take its time to deliberate over the constitutional issues (the usual thing an appellate court would want to do)

Note the trial courts are required to rush in their actions and decisions, the appellate courts have no language requiring them to expedite their actions.
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D-Lee Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
24. Not so bad and more typical than you think
I agree with VoodooGuru -- there are many instances of this type of language.

And, would you really wnat the people who got us into this mess to take the government benefits and then SUE the government?

I suspect posters are thinking about taxpayer suits, although the more likely scenario is suits by the bad guys ...
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. D-Lee, welcome to DU - 4 posts so far, eh? Lucky you got to post!
"automatic stay" language is not unheard of in the law, but it ain't "common" either. Show me a SINGLE provision of an automatic stay going into effect specifically to keep constitutional violations proven to a trial judge going on, and I'll not be too hard on you. But, until then, you're making statements with no factual basis or backup when you say such provisions are 'common' in the law. Baloney.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. In short: If you liked the Patriot Act
you're going to LOVE the bailout.

Thanks for posting this, it's hard to grasp the enormity.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
28. OVERSIGHT IS A DINOSAUR. Extinct. Dead. Non-existent since 9-11. And it wasn't so great before then.
This is the "new" Democratic party. Beholden to the Big Boys and ready to stick it to the citizens at every opportunity. Get used to it. Obama will not change it. It's part of the System. The western world's financial powers have been trying to dismantle the U.S. Constitution since those uppity anti-aristocracy revolutionaries adopted it 200 years ago. They have finally succeeded.

The worst part is that they will meet only token resistance from the hypnotized U.S. taxpayers who stand to lose the most from this takeover. This baby will be a done deal on Wednesday.

Remember folks, it's OUR Democratic party that is LEADING THE CHARGE ON THIS.

I can't wait until the 2010 and 2012 national elections when the Democratic candidates will be claiming they were mislead and railroaded. A la Iraq War resolution.


Nausea follows.


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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
29. The stay is lifted in 3 days
And the intent seems to be to prevent WALL STREET from using litigation to muck up the process. It's lifted in 3 days unless the Sec. seeks a stay from a higher court; where he'd have to prove such a stay is necessary & constitutional. At least there's actually judicial review now, which is a big change from Paulson's original plan. There's a process for legislative oversight, rules on how Paulson can implement the program. Not having read the whole thing, it looks a whole lot better now.
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. trial judges can stay their own orders pending appeal, if merited. This is different
The question is why would congress require it in all cases of the highest possible (constitutional) violations? the language will lead to arguments that it is congress's presumption that the "automatic" stay continue.

The Secretary would oppose the lawsuit injunction request, of course, and in the alternative ask the trial judge to stay any relief pending appeal.

Why would congress make a "one size fits all" policy to protect constitutional violations and give a big edge in favor of continuing the stay while on appeal?
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Probably
because they don't want Wall Street suing the gov., as others have noted. Let's say Paulson tries to buy up Countrywide's bad mortgages, or limit CEO's pay, & Countrywide sues & says that their cons. due process rights are being violated. That could potentially cause a long, complicated lawsuit that would prevent quick action & allow the crisis to get worse. An injunction prevents the government from acting. But this way, Countrywide's injunction is stayed for 3 days & then the Tres. can decide if they want to appeal it to a judge. I just don't see it as a huge issue, but then I'm probably missing something.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. one thing you're missing is the constitution's "contracts clause"
once the government signs a contract itself, its likely unconstitutional to change it, at the govt's behest, anyway. Thus if "we" make a bad deal, it is likely locked in, and unconstitutional for even congress to rush in and try to change the contract.

Now you say maybe these de-regulators will be too hard on their golden parachute buddies. All I can say is C'mon. You're missing something: the entire record of the Bush administration, and elements of the prior administration as well. This law will lock in Bush philosophy on the bailout for Obama's admin to enforce. Wunderbar!
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. That has nothing to do w/this bill, at all.
You're just quoting things at random here. What does the "contracts clause" have to do w/this automatic stay provision? I thought your objection was to this specific provision? When did I say they'd be too hard on "golden parachute buddies?" Maybe the massive 700$ billion bailout will constrain Obama's adm., but again that's a seperate issue from this automatic stay provision. (also, Wunderbar?) Why did you cut out the rest of the bill's sentence, which shows that the stay only lasts 3 days? It feels like you object to the entire idea of a bailout & are spinning a random provision to scare people into feeling the same.

And also, whether this provision is included or not, if the Sec. appeals the injunction, the injunction is stayed ANYWAY. It's stayed until the higher court hears the case. So basically all this bill does is add a 3-day stay - if the Sec. appeals during that time, the injunction will be stayed till the ruling (like normal). If he doesn't appeal within 3 days, it expires automatically.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. No, once the govt (secretary) makes a contract it achieves Constitutional
significance. If it's a really bad one, something we could well expect from Paulson, he gets to lock in a bad deal for the taxpayers this way. He's unlikely to fight it (since that's his intent, for these purposes) and so it's yet another bad feature of delegating HUGE contractual authority, which is clearly implied by Congress's many references to contracts in the bill...

So no, i'm not making things up, I'm thinking things through.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Yet it still makes no sense...
It's moot anyway, Congress voted it down.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. Sorry you don't understand, but I'll bet they're coming back for more
look for another vote next week. Both party leaderships are on board and they only have to flip 13 reps to change the result.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. Thanks Marie.
:hi:
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ThePowerofWill Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
30. Bookmarked for further reading.
So much to read and sift through this morning. I actually stayed home from work to sift through this, and keep abreast.

With just a skim this does not look good. Looks like some of that unspecified stuff we have been hearing about.
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mlevans Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
33. I hope you sent this out to the papers or something
because it really ought to get a wider audience than it does just on this site. I think the general public would be horrified and outraged to learn what the bill is really doing (or not doing).
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Nothing stopping anybody else from doing so, I'm swamped, but will try
but i also have a new thread, trying to put a frame that understands the entire big picture, here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4117500
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
45. Damn these Corporate Democrats who vote for this theft against the Middle Class.
Are they that "out of touch?!?" Do they HONESTLY think that we will forget this deceit! :(
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. I don't know. Are they just scared, yet again?
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
48. Request for feedback
I'm thinking of blogging this as follows. I've modified some of what you've said to try to make it clearer to ME, but want to make sure it's still accurate. I'd appreciate your confirming or clarifying the following:

Few have had time or whatever to actually read the proposed bailout bill that was (for now) just defeated. From one who did, the bill would have provided:

1. That Sec. of Treasury Paulson can violate all statutes with impunity, and no one can sue.

2. That even if you prove a CONSTITUTIONAL violation in court, any order in your favor, even based on a PROVEN Constitutional violation, is STAYED until Paulson is done appealing -- or doesn't want the stay!

3. So, in effect, after you litigate for months or years in appellate courts, and assuming you finally win (again) in the trial court AND the final court of appeal, all you get is an equitable order for the Secretary to (finally) stop violating your Constitutional rights.

4. And, even then, he can keep on violating your statutory rights, forever.

Thanks.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. response to this
paragraph 1: any old thing can be FILED, the question is if it will be dismissed procedurally. (this is universally true in all court cases). In other words "SUCCESSFULLY" Sue, is the question. Here there are extremely heavy, additional barriers to the already tough job of suing the govt. Clearly some suits are allowed, (constitutional equitable suits) to be precisely accurate -- but its very likely no one can successfully sue under the statutes because (a) the only ones who will have "standing" ( a cognizable, legal, usually but financial but could be rights-based, "damage" that a court recognizes as sufficient to make you a motivated litigant) and the only standing i 'see' right now is having an asset involved in the bailout or a financial claim therein. See paragraph on that point.

Paragraph 2: extremely likely to be true, because of the pre-existing law of stays (wishing to preserve the status quo) and because congress, via the automatic stay, is indicating in the clearest possible terms its preference for the presernvation of the status quo until all appeals are exhausted.

para 3: you may also get an attorney fee award, but that's not YOU, that's your attorney. If the order were to compel a contract to be performed, then you may get the benefits of that contract, but that's not "damages" that's equitable relief.

para 4: "forever" is rhetorical, there are sunset provisions in the bill.

If one wishes to be scrupulously accurate, nobody would or few would understand the extreme difficulty that, as a practical matter, makes it 'impossible' to sue and win.

WHen i think of this, i imagine an attorney advising their client of the hurdles, risks and chances overall, and by the time its done, the client will be quite bummed out indeed.

But you never say never, if you wish complete precision. The apparent intent of the bill is to back off the complete prohibition that was more present in the original version, and substitute a deceptive sliver of light that, as a practical matter, no one would wish on anyone else in good faith.

if that's not clear we'd have to talk by phone
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
49. So where did you go to lawschool?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. check your PMs
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Cool
:hi:
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
56. Our Democratic Congress bought into this.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
57. "Farcical" won't cut it. Just the thought that the Dems countenanced that is a truly surreal
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 05:56 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
nightmare. Munch's Scream. It would almost be comforting to think they were hapless half-wits who didn't know what they asking for. But I don't think so. Like we, DUers, they have access to expert advice.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
58. excellent well thought out post. KR nt
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. I like a person with a sig line that stresses the appropriate weight of principles! nt
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
61. It appears that we may have narrowly avoided turning over our govt over to a band of terrorists.
Makes me wonder about just how much those who voted for/supported it really understood its implications...
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
62. If the details of the language of this bill can argued over this much, it should not be passed.
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 02:29 PM by BrklynLiberal
Wait until there is a bill with CLEAR, CONCISE and NON-ARGUMENTATIVE language. It could be done if they want it to be done.

Nothing should be vague and left to be decided on some future date.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
63. Does anyone in DC read these bills besides Kucinich?
Are they evil or just stupid?
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. That is an excellent question.....The video I posted just below this is essential viewing.
I think he may be the only one who really understands exactly what the neo-cons and Bushco are trying to do to this country.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
64. You MUST check out what Dennis Kucinich has to say about this.
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