I welcome a Great Depression scenario. Bring. It. On.

[cali]

Is there a stupider or more selfish sentiment? Good for you. You welcome the suffering of millions and countless deaths. Hurrah! Now that's a liberal/progressive value!

I'm still unsure about a bailout. I don't know if I buy the dire scenarios being painted if the bailout doesn't go through, but wishing for a calamitous meltdown of the entire country is monumentally ugly as well being epically stupid.

Oh, and if you think the rich will suffer under such a scenario, think again. They'll largely escape unscathed.

[ixion]

1. I think it's something that's been building for decades

and the longer we wait, the worse it will be.

Let's just get it over with.

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. The Great Depression lasted almost fifteen years

destroyed millions of lives, and - oh, by the way - only ended through a cataclysmic war.

It's not exactly like pulling off a band-aid, you know?

[ixion]

28. there is a difference in magnitude only

the truth is that it's going to happen sooner or later, because of the ponzi scheme we've been running since we abandoned the gold standard for fiat currency.

I didn't say it was desirable, or that it will be pleasant. Only that it is necessary, that it is inevitable, and that we shouldn't saddle future generations with our own hubris because we're scared of paying the bill.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. I'm done

"the ponzi scheme we've been running since we abandoned the gold standard for fiat currency. "

This is nonsense talk. Let me explain something. I am a Marxist. I say this proudly. In terms of economics, I make most people on this board look like Milton Friedman. But this is nonsense.

I guess we're all going to go down together.

[ixion]

37. hmmmm...

"The terms fiat currency and fiat money relate to types of currency or money whose usefulness results, not from any intrinsic value or guarantee that it can be converted into gold or another currency, but instead from a government's order (fiat) that it must be accepted as a means of payment."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency

This is exactly the type of monetary system that we have, and exactly why we're in trouble now. The problem with a fiat currency is that if the government who backs its value ceases to be viable, the currency implodes.

This is what we're seeing now. Nonsense? Hardly.

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. Thanks

I know what fiat currency is.

It is completely unrelated to the specific events of the last several weeks. Your longer term time-line (presumably dating back to the end of Bretton Woods) would seem similarly distant.

[scisyhp1]

76. If you were a Marxist, you would know that

the fate of any society is almost deterministically depends on the
relationship between its productive forces and the means of production.
It does not matter, in the big picture sense, how many billions (or if
any at all) dollars the government gives to the capital. As long as all
means of production are controlled by so very few, the pattern of exploitation
and alienation will reproduce and accelerate until the breaking point is
reached and the total replacement of the economic system is enacted.
In fact, this whole economic crisis can be properly understood and addressed
only on the basis of the Marxian economic theory, and all half-ass-ed attempts
to fix the old system with bailouts and better regulation suffer from lack
of understanding and are doomed to failure. The best they can do is to postpone
the inevitable by few years or maybe, if they are really good and smart, decades.
Yet the main contradiction of capitalism will remain unresolved. This and any
consequent crisis will serve to bring the public consciousness ever close to
reflecting the economic reality. That is the collective understanding, without
which there may be no solution in a democratic society. Opposite to it are
ignorance and denial of today. There is still a long way to go.

[alcibiades_mystery]

84. All true

It has nothing to do with whether removal from the gold standard is a proximate cause of this particular catastrophe, however.

[Toucano]

75. The "magnitude" is a pretty important difference. n/t

[MillieJo]

74. A war started in Europe as a consequence of the

Great Depression. Hitler created jobs, used the Roosevelt model because when people are starving and they are offered a lifeline to
recovery they will take it, if they can feed their families. It was too late once Hitler was in power.
A big depression is very dangerous, governments are getting unstable under the pressure of rising fuel and food prices as it is.

[NMDemDist2]

2. agreed

people don't realize what they're saying.

the economy is gonna crash no matter what the idiots in washington do, it's just a matter of how hard and how long.

I remember the 80s and they were nothing compared to the economic pain coming down the pike on this one.

[stray cat]

3. I agree completely. The people who get hurt are average Americans and their children

[Virginia Dare]

13. We're going to get hurt either way..

if we give this 700 billion to them, we're facing massive inflation. Our dollars will be worth shit. Plus we'll be stuck with a bunch of empty properties that aren't worth shit.

[Jade Fox]

4. Thank you, Cali.......nt

[EV_Ares]

5. Who is hoping for another depression or meltdown? You are right it is not the rich who will

suffer if one occurs but the poor and the working class. The rich will be able to ride it out somewhat unscathed.

[Zynx]

6. Exactly. The rich escaped just fine in virtually all countries last time.

They will again. The poor didn't escape just fine anywhere.

[Arkansas Granny]

7. I opened this thread thinking I was going to have to ask WTF?

Now that you have my attention, I admit to having the same confusion over a bailout since I am not that well versed on economics. I have to wonder about the motives of some I've heard who don't seem to understand the implications of a situation that could lead to another depression.

[RadiationTherapy]

8. "largely unscathed" So what's another 700,000 million dollars then, huh?

It's not about "wanting" a great depression, it is about calling their bluff. Our entire society is a fake, plastic bluff and I am sick of us all living a selfish, obese, Wal-Mart colored LIE.

[cali]

12. wow. I don't think I've ever called anyone here an elitest before

but you fit the bill perfectly. Yes, our culture is fucked up, but a disastrous melt down will hurt the most vulnerable. It will kill the most vulnerable. I live in a poor community- albeit one that's more rugged and independent than most in this country- and I dread the harsh winter already. A complete economic meltdown would mean that many here would literally die this winter.

[Virginia Dare]

16. I don't think anybody here is wishing for Americans to starve..

I certainly don't want to see bread lines make a come back, but I'm sick of propping up this failure of a system, to me that's what that bail out does. If I'm wrong, please explain to me why. I'd rather keep the 700 billion and create jobs and programs for people in need.

[RadiationTherapy]

22. Exactly. nt

[RadiationTherapy]

24. Well, good, because I have never been called anything even approaching the term 'elitist'

So please elaborate; I would like an opportunity to see myself reflected by you.

[sendero]

90. Your completely mistaken..

... idea seems to be that there is ANYTHING congress can do to prevent this.

THERE IS NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. This problem MAYBE could have been fixed in 2005 but now it is WAY TOO LATE.

So, print 700 billion and give it to the very people who created this mess. That is REAL SMART. It will only make things worse.

For all the jerks who for 2 years have been making fun of my warnings, get this. You were wrong, the wolf IS at the door and I hope you are as prepared as possible because THIS SHIT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, and there is NOTHING, ANYWHERE OR ANYHOW that can stop it.

Get it?

[Douglas Carpenter]

9. thank you!! RECOMMENDED!!

[MadHound]

10. Jumping into a bailout scenario, at least what is being currently proposed,

Will be worse than no bailout at all. Taking on this load of debt is going to downgrade the ratings for our U.S. Treasury bonds, to the point where they will be worth just what they are, so much paper. This will lead to our government not being able to fund a damn thing, including payroll, social security, infrastructure, defense, etc. etc. It will all collapse due to lack of funds.

Add on top of the high rise of inflation that will result from injecting that sort of liquidity into the system. Not a good combination, and do we really want to see what's going to happen if the government decides to print its way out of debt? Get your wheelbarrows ready.

I don't want to see another Great Depression, but neither do I want to face the scenario that will come to pass if we pass this bailout. We can survive a depression, we've done it time and again. However we can't survive having our economy and government both collapse.

[LeftishBrit]

86. 'we can't survive having our economy and government both collapse'

And that's precisely what the Great Depression caused in numerous Europaean countries. That's how Hitler got into power.

[Virginia Dare]

11. So you think the 700 billion will be a panacea?

That's what they're telling us, but I have my doubts.

[cali]

15. Clearly not. And I said so in my OP.

"I'm still unsure about a bailout. I don't know if I buy the dire scenarios being painted if the bailout doesn't go through, but wishing for a calamitous meltdown of the entire country is monumentally ugly as well being epically stupid."

I'm not claiming the bailout is the answer. I'm suggesting that a complete economic meltdown is something we should try and avoid. I don't know how we should go about that.

[Virginia Dare]

19. Therein lies the problem, I don't think anybody does..

but I'm very leary of Paulson rushing in and demanding 700 billion. We may face a crash either way, and I'd rather have that money to deal with the aftermath.

[Postman]

20. You can do something on November 4

[MUAD_DIB]

14. Right. Don't wish for a train wreck...especially if you are on it.

[mmonk]

17. Yes. The rich will suffer the least in general.

They will also pick up the pieces to their benefit.

[Generic Other]

18. I welcome a new deal and a return to FDR values

the fulfillment of the last great progressive movement in America. Maybe a realization that the lessons of history are real.

If I must suffer financial ruin to make this country a stronger better place to live for the young and the poor, I will make that sacrifice. Propping up the system as it stands now where a few wealthy and powerful destroy the quality of our lives, our Democratic institutions in the name of profits they haven't earned--why would I support that?

Yeah I stand to lose. When haven't I lost. Time to make a stand. United we stand. United we fall. They brought us here. Not me.

[Virginia Dare]

21. Our choice may be, do we suffer the consequences now?

or do we make future generations pay for our mistakes all over again.

[FedUpWithIt All]

36. Do you think it will be FUTURE generations? I think we are simply delaying the issue for ourselves.

I believe that by putting it off we are creating a bigger and deeper crisis. Is this anywhere near the mark?

[Virginia Dare]

38. You're probably correct..

we'll be paying, AND future generations will be paying.

[deutsey]

49. I do too, but I dread the possibility that we "go the other way"

The neocons and their crackpot allies could use this crisis the same way Hitler used the Depression. Remember, there were the stirrings of fascist coup here in America early in FDR's first term (look up Smedley Butler).

[reggie the dog]

50. EU president Sarkozy

seems to be calling for that on both an EU wide level, which we can do in the EU, and a world wide level, which may be possible but there is no structure He is on the right but sees regulated capitalism and banking as the only way for the future.

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. We're through the looking glass with these people (Little Boy Who Cried Wolf Problem)

DUers in large numbers are essentially doing just what you say. Or, they're in "It's all a fake mode."

Bush's true damage to this country will be gauged in history by how many people thought the 2008 financial crisis was "just a plot." That's what historians will study: how Bush's history of lies caused a nation to completely disbelieve the true crisis it was facing.

Yes, tens of millions thrown out of work and not for six months, but six years, and more. Many will fall out of the system altogether, forever. Millions will die unnecessarily. Millions. Retirement funds will be gone, vanished. And the inflation will make the 1970's look like the late 1990's. It's going to be a fucking mess.

But many DUers will shake their fists at the sky and yell and shout about plots and fake crises and other self-affirming nonsense. Right up until the day their bank balance hits zero and they're forced from their homes.

[Not the Only One]

25. Then just send everyone a check for $2300 if you're scared about the economy

If the government is going to print more dollars, devaluing them and hurting the middle class and poor way harder than a 2000 point drop in the stock market would, then just send a check to every American, young and old. Let them spend the money anyway they want-- even buying low on stocks. It makes more sense than the bailout idea for Wall Street fat cats.

[Frank Cannon]

27. There are ways to get us out of this mess

And they will still be expensive, but they don't involve rescuing the fat cats that got us into this mess in the first place, so those ways will never even be considered.

There will be much sturm und drang and gnashing of teeth over a period of several days, but these bastards will still get their bailout. And we will be twice as fucked as we are now, just a few months later.

[atommom]

29. I was all ready to yell at you

and then I went and read the rest of the post. ITA. :hi:

[tandot]

30. I totally agree. I just posted in another threat ranting againt the bailout.

I don't have enough knowledge about the matter but Obama has great economic supporters and advisers:

Economic policy advisors:
Jason Furman (director of economic policy) source bio
Austan Goolsbee (senior economic policy advisor), University of Chicago tax policy expert source Wikipedia website
Karen Kornbluh (policy director) source bio Wikipedia
David Cutler, Harvard health policy expert source Wikipedia website
Jeff Liebman, Harvard welfare expert source Wikipedia website
Michael Froman, Citigroup executive source bio
Daniel Tarullo, Georgetown law professor source bio
David Romer, Berkeley macroeconomist source website
Christina Romer, Berkeley economic historian source website
Richard Thaler, University of Chicago behavioral finance expert source Wikipedia

Robert Rubin, former Treasury Secretary source Wikipedia bio
Larry Summers, former Treasury Secretary source Wikipedia bio
Alan Blinder, former Vice-chairman of the Federal Reserve source Wikipedia bio website
Jared Bernstein, Economic Policy Institute labor economist source bio
James Galbraith, University of Texas macroeconomist source Wikipedia website

Paul Volcker, Chairman of the Federal Reserve 1979-1987 source Wikipedia
Laura Tyson, Berkeley international economist, Bill Clinton economic adviser source Wikipedia
Robert Reich, Berkeley public policy professor, former Secretary of Labor source Wikipedia weblog
Peter Henry, Stanford international economist source website
Gene Sperling, former White House economic adviser source Wikipedia

Other prominent economists who support Obama:
Brad Delong, Berkeley macroeconomist source Wikipedia website weblog
Joseph Stiglitz, 2001 Nobel laureate source Wikipedia
Edmund Phelps, 2006 Nobel laureate source Wikipedia
Ray Fair, Yale macroeconomist source Wikipedia
Dan McFadden, 2000 Nobel laureate source website
Robert Solow, 1987 Nobel laureate source Wikipedia

Prominent finance people who support Obama:
(not actually economists)
William Donaldson, Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) Chair 2003-05 source Wikipedia
Arthur Levitt, SEC chair 1993-2001 source Wikipedia
David Ruder, SEC chair 1987-1989 source Wikipedia
Warren Buffet, investor, richest person in world source Wikipedia


http://econ4obama.blogspot.com/2008/06/obama-economic-advisors-and-economic.html

[TBF]

31. Nobody wants a depression, nonetheless, we are going to have one -

and the worst thing to do is transfer all of our assets for the next 100 years or so to fat cats on Wall Street. They want to bail out the investment banks. These are not the main street banks backed by the FDIC - these are the investment banks used by the very wealthy. They can take the hit - we can't.

There is no other way to say this: we need to cut spending. I'd start with the ridiculous war-mongering in the middle east, but that's just me.

[MilesColtrane]

69. Almost all big commercial banks are investment banks now to some degree.

That's a big part of the problem.

Is your money in one of these?

Bank of America, Citigroup, HSBC, Chase, Wachovia, Wells Fargo

If it is, it is in an investment bank.

[Pale Blue Dot]

32. Welcoming it and realizing that it's inevitable are two different things. nt

[LanternWaste]

33. I imagine the individuals fantasizing....

Damn straight, Cali...

I imagine the individuals fantasizing about an economic meltdown have little to no idea how it will affect their own households. Little to no idea what a depression is, let alone the direct and indirect consequences it will have on themselves, their family, and their friends.

We get to witness the perfect intersection of the naive armchair survivalist and the naive armchair economist in their posts

I imagine many don't realize that a six month supply of hand-me-down military rations, and a box of ammunition in the basement they stroke lovingly once a week won't do as much good as their vaguely libertarian heroes in the horribly written, dystopian, post-apocolyptic science-fictions "novels" and movies make it out to be.

Kids-- there are no special effects in the real world. There are no 'Level Ups' when it comes to hunger. Or, to bring this home a little more directly-- you can't listen to your I-pods or play your console gaming systems when your parents can't pay the utility bills.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. correct

They make almost zero connection between these events and their own lives. They need not worry, however, since the effects will be felt quite soon indeed.

[cayuga]

39. Just curious - how 'countless deaths?'

war? homicide? disease? suicide? genocide? starvation? How do you see countless people dying?

[cali]

42. first of all, people will literally freeze todeath this winter.

Secondly, people will die of curable disease. They already do now, and it will get much, much worse. And yes, civil strife could kill people and so could starvation.

[Romulox]

53. "People will die of curable disease..." This bailout will be INSTEAD of Universal Health Care

So I'm not sure how you get that bailing out Wall Street will provide medical care. :shrug:

[MillieJo]

80. People are already starving to death

due to the rising food prices in third world countries. If the rich, western countries go broke they will not be given
the aid they are getting now. Collasping economies will bring down governments, people are loosing jobs and can't afford heating this winter, in Europe as well as the USA.

[mike_c]

40. no one in their right mind WANTS to suffer-- but that shouldn't make us...

...willing to buy into the greedy self-centeredness of the Wall Street capitalist mindset, either. It shouldn't make us want to save a system unworthy of saving just to avoid the pain of doing the right things.

I utterly reject the notion of saving the banking system in its present form. Soften the landing, yes, but not a bailout for the greedy rat bastards whose unbridled avarice is the REAL threat to our futures. We need to seize this opportunity to make fundamental economic changes. That simply cannot be done entirely painlessly, but if we don't do it we'll just continue this cycle of destructive consumer capitalism until we all crash hard and burn.

[Stinky The Clown]

43. Did the gound just shift????

I agree with you on something.

[cboy4]

44. Yup. Totally agree. Stupid with a capital S.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[cayuga]

45. Is there a stupider sentiment? Yes there is.

That this will result in "countless deaths" is right up there on the stupider scale.

[cayuga]

46. Is there a stupider sentiment? Yes there is.

That this will result in "countless deaths" is right up there on the stupider scale.

[Stinky The Clown]

67. Actually, history is not on your side with respect to your statement

There were :ahem: countless deaths due to the effects of The Great Depression.

Look it up.

[cayuga]

73. OK. I looked it up.

Googled 'deaths great depression'. No discernable cause and effect was noted. Birth rate was reduced - not a bad thing. Global strife increased - we already have it and hopefully nuclear weapons are a deterrent. Economic programs improved.

An economic collapse may level the playing field. An uneven economic field has played the major role in revolutions throughout history.

Already I am seeing better deals and prices being offered as a result of this. It's not as bad as you think. We'll be okay. And if anyone thinks they are going to freeze to death this winter, there's always Chavez to save the day. We just need to think outside the box.

[MillieJo]

81. In Europe the threat of freezing to

death this winter, is very, very real for the elderly, many of whom starved and frozen in 1940's. The rising fuel prices have conicided with rising food prices and a bad summer for crops.
People are already starving to death in Africa and the worst of the recession hasn't begun yet.
It the USA the "Great Depression" may have been light on deaths, in Europe it was an oppurtunity for
dictatorships to rise. Without the Depression, Hitler would never have come to power with his promise of jobs and his economic
plan.

[PVnRT]

95. LOL - poverty doesn't result in more death?

Are you really that ignorant? Go look up the infant mortality rate in Detroit and get back to me.

[blindpig]

47. If you think this'bailout' will prevent that you're wrong.

Credit is gonna be tight, regardless. A bailout will sink the dollar. Got yer wheelbarrow ready?

It is coming, should we reward the perps, the extortionists?

This is an inevitable feature of capitalism. What's to like?

[PRETZEL]

48. I agree, disagree, and still not sure.......................

not that that makes any sense,

No way in hell is the possibility of another Great Depression a welcome thing. The resulting inflation and loss of equity value will hurt everyone. Low and middle class more so in that a much greater percent of income is used for everyday living. Add to that the loss of value of 401(k), stock holdings and any other retirement instruments could potentially be massive.

But I'm still not sold on any bailout plan. If the capital infusion is designed protect the market against runs on banks and investment companies then maybe I might be a little more inclined to agree with it assuming that regulations and tangible capital requirements are tightened. The resulting "downsizing" that many of these companies would have to do in order to stay solvent would hurt the economy and that would have to be dealt with.

Long and short of it, Damned if we, damned if we don't.

[mistertrickster]

51. I'm not so sure. We never would have gotten Social Security, the 40 hour week, and

medicare without the Depression.

Maybe we're like a drunk that has to "hit bottom" before he or she can recover.

But I would never "welcome" a Depression . . . no way.

[Renew Deal]

52. Is it liberal/progressive to spend taxpayer money to bailout fat companies?

No one wants a depression, but no one wants to continue the dangerous behavior of the last few years either.

[Romulox]

55. Yup. Give all your money to Wall Street, or you ain't no liberal!

Countless deaths, &/c...

[onenote]

56. no one wants a depression, but no one wants to continue the dangerous behavior -- the rub...

As Stephen Pearlstein wrote in today's Washington Post:

"You can try to prevent a financial meltdown or you can teach Wall Street a lesson, but you can't do both at the same time."

[onenote]

54. anyone on this site complaining that they are living in a Depression already

doesn't know jack.

My bet is that nearly every person on this site has a computer (and most have access to a high speed connection), a cell phone, a tv (unless they've chosen voluntarily to do without), a car (to the extent that they need one), to say nothing of a roof over their heads.

My father, on the other hand, shared one pair of nice shoes with his brother during the 1930s.

[carlyhippy]

93. agreed...some of the older folks who were alive during the depression could post stories here

I understand that there are provisions in place now that were not in place back then; food stamps, subsidies etc., but in a "depression", would the govt be able to afford to dole out these provisions to all the people who would need them, and it would be most of America, or will they just tell everyone "sorry, no foodstamps, we have no money"

[kentuck]

57. Are you absolutely, 100% sure, this will be a Depression??

Unlike 1929, people do have $100,000 FDIC protection on their savings, unlike the Great Depression. There are some differences now from then.

[fascisthunter]

58. I Don't Know One Person WHo Wants a Depression

And I thinks it's a reach to accuse those who are against this bailout of asking for a Great Depression.

[WhollyHeretic]

61. Try this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4094384&mesg_id=4094384

[fascisthunter]

63. Oh Jayzus.... it must of been out of anger

emotions sometimes skew ones thinking to make such absurd statements. I understand the anger but not sure that person is that serious.

[yodoobo]

59. Just like cheering on a sports team from your living room

Go Yankees!
Boo Yankees!
GO FDIC!
Boo Goldman Sachs

Doesn't really matter.

I agree with what you posted. But in the end, the folks on these message boards who are cheering on the failures, who are arguing vehemently for or against bailouts, are just taking part in cheering their own version of a sports team from the living room.

The people who makes these things happen. The people with their hands on the levers of power, are not taking their ques from Internet forums.

Even if the power brokers are reading DU, kos or god forbid, Freeperville, their vested interest lies in either their 1) Their own pockets, or 2) Doin whats best for the public. Whether they choose #1 or #2 depends on their person ethics of course.

I'm quite certain that anyone with the power to influence these events, has no interest in trying to satisfy anonymous people on message boards.

[moriah]

60. My man just learned that the money he had invested into WaMu....

... is now worth $0.67.

He's very happy right now.

Oh, is he ever.

[alarimer]

62. The first Great Depression was caused by a complete lack of regulation.

And deregulation has caused this mess. We should have learned the lesson of the 1930s. We know what needs to be done (more regulation) and yet no one seems willing to do that.

[galileoreloaded]

64. You don't understand the complexity of the situation.....

it's no win. Give them the money, don't, whatever, same net effect.

[1awake]

65. agreed..

Though unlike most here, I do not see a "depression" in our near future.. with or without the huge bailout. Mind you, things are going to get rough, but not 1929 rough. You know.. I'll probably get flamed for saying this lol.

[Bill McBlueState]

66. Once again, DU is put back in its place by a wise one.

Or something.

[Romulox]

68. "Blue Dog Underground" nt

[Bill McBlueState]

78. Maybe

But in my case, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the OP, just questioning the need for her to serve as some kind of self-proclaimed moral compass for an internet message board.

[Romulox]

82. Well, I'm questioning the number of people posting from the "center/right". nt

[sinkingfeeling]

70. Cali, I for one do not believe that if this bailout doesn't happen there will be a collapse of

American life. There will be a pretty rough recession. There will be higher unemployment. People will require assistance to get by. If you look back a week ago, Paulson was claiming the markets would fail within 3 days.

There are many other ways to help the economy besides turning over taxpayer dollars for worthless assets.

Many people on DU are young and some have never experienced a true recession like the one that happened between 1973 and 1975, with the oil embargo. Credit tightened up and mortgage rates were in the 15 to 18% range. Unemployment was about 9 to 10%. Or even the 'Reagan recession' of 1980-1982. They have had almost 'unlimited' credit their entire lives. Many probably owe $1000's on credit cards and student loans. Debt, be it personal or national, is the true underlying cause of most of our problems.

People do get through rough economic times. And recessions tend to make people re-prioritize their values. I would rather we save the $700 billion to assist people get through rough times than to keep investment bankers in business.

[MillieJo]

71. People should remember, if Wall Street crashes..

It is an International problem, not purely about America. People are loosing jobs in their thousands in the UK, in banking industry, the travel industry is in serious trouble too because of rising fuel price, food prices are rising and farming has problems because we have had another bad, wet summer. And though many of us are grandchildren of the WWII generation of The Blitz, rationing and post-1945 austerity ( Which lead to Tory rule for more than a decade.),our grandparents in the UK are facing a winter without heating because fuel prices are so high, they will not be able to pay their bills, and our government pays a heating allowance to the elderly. France had a terrible summer too with failing crops, due to rain fall and extreme heat.
Over this year rising food prices have left millions in the third world starving and are dependent on
the economy of the rich countries. http://www.kbc.co.ke/story.asp?ID=52767
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/935a8ca0-8a8a-11dd-a76a-0000779fd18c.html

If Wall Street crashes, London will follow and the last "Great Depression" also hit Europe and lead to a wars, dictatorships and gave Hitler away into power. Whether a bailout is a good salution, I don't know but the world is watching.

[bubba_brutus]

83. Domestic issues vs. International needs

The sad part is that the decisions being made are being driven by Americas Domestic agenda but they will of course have a ripple affect across the globe.

The problem is that our federal and state governments have become more corrupt and cronyism has become common place. Just look at our current President, he is the son of a President a former State Governor and his brother is Governor of Florida. Do you believe that handing down the Presidential office between a single family after a very questionable election is exemplary of a transparent Republic?

These corrupt bastards are a disease eating the heart of our Republic, they have trashed the Constitution and are actively pilfering the coffers of this nation by handing out Billions to their corporate friends and launching wars in order to enrich themselves. They are intentionally catering to the uneducated and and working class by constantly injecting race and immigration issues into their rhetoric in order to pit us against each other and keep us divided.

Like treating an advanced spread of cancer, we will have to cut them out but the cure might kill the patient.

LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC!!!!

[tosh]

91. WAS. Jeb Bush WAS gov. of Florida. Past tense.

[LeftishBrit]

89. Agree. Excellent points! (unfortunately)

[redqueen]

72. Why? We can make money off of this bailout.

By getting an equity stake, we are doing a HUGE favor for future generations.

And personally I prefer a softer correction and re-regulation than a crash.

[nolabels]

77. Yea, keep on waxing in the establishment's so called truisms

You don't know what will happen and neither does anybody else. The thing i do know is reality always eventually humbles everyone

[bubba_brutus]

79. 1 Trillion for a loaf of Bread

The government is going to pay for this bail out by printing more money!!! That money will only be as good as the junk paper it is going to back up, our dollar will be diluted even further and the inflation caused by this "hail mary pass" to save the economy will make basic staples and products incredibly high priced. Of course the hard working citizens of this Nation will bare the brunt of this calamity while men of privilege who run WallStreet and this government have already moved their fortunes to Gold and overseas assets.

We the People....will be left holding the bag while the Bush oligarchy moves to their Ranch in Paraguay. http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7BEBA55617-2676-4091-ABBC-20650EB6FEE1%7D&language=EN

[judasdisney]

85. Equating opposition to The Bailout with "wishing for a Great Depression"?

Are you a clown, spook, or Neocon?

[LeftishBrit]

87. A number of people here have said that they would be prepared to have a Depression to bring

the bankers down; or even that it would be a good idea to let the economy collapse, in order to bring down a corrupt system and start from scratch.

Of course it's not equivalent to opposing the bailout; but there are people who have expressed such views.

[sendero]

88. It doesn't matter...

... whether it is welcomed or not, it is coming.

There probably are folks who "welcome" it, their tune will change once we are in the middle of it.

It's not going to be a good time for anyone, but there will be some positives on the other side, our regulatory structure will be re-implemented, people will stop living beyond their means, the nation will get a serious dose of much needed humility.

[LeftishBrit]

92. I think there must be *much* more regulation as a condition of a bailout

and no more huge bonuses for the already-rich.

But I disagree with the 'bring it on, we can survive!' mentality. Worldwide, lots of people won't survive. The people who are most affected by a depression are not in general the rich. At most they may have to tighten their belts a bit temporarily - but they're the ones who will survive long-term.

Those who suffer most in a depression are those close to the margins. Many relatively poor people who are just on the right side of survival under ordinary circumstances, but will fall under bad ones. Sick, disabled or elderly people. Those who depend on benefits that will get cut in a failing economy. Children, whose whole future may be affected by undernutrition when growing up and by interrupted education.

Whenever I hear people argue that temporary suffering is a price worth paying for changing the system and forcing people to live more within their means - I hear chilling echoes of Margaret Thatcher and her tough 'cures' for Britain's failings. Yes, the exact nature of the ideology may be different, but the effects are the same: in order to force change, let the weakest go to the wall!

And economic disaster is as likely to produce a Hitler as an FDR.

Note that I am not defending the bankers, or supporting every aspect of the bailout. And I consider that capitalism rides far too roughshod these days, and there must be reforms. But there are some arguments here that remind me of the military statement, 'we destroyed this village in order to save it'. One cannot save an economy - a global economy at that - by destroying it.

[PVnRT]

94. Right on, but this will fly over the heads of many here

It's been this way since the beginning of this website, the "secular end-timers" as you call them. They want calamity and death so that they can be right and feel smug.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

96. The People Who Say That Are More Begging For Attention Than Anything Else.

Their mentally immature and are acting like children who act out just to seek attention. Their sentiments aren't real, they're just ignorant and childish.

But I agree that there is little that is more moronic and selfish than their sentiment.