Ok we all know the economy is in the shitter

[nadinbrzezinski]

so what can we do?

Here is the list of measures I think the next administration has to follow through

reestablish the WPA... and reinvest in infrastructure

Get OUT of NAFTA, CAFTA, et al...

Re-industrialize the country...

Progressive tax rate, a la 1950s

Create a mixed economy

Break down monopolies, and give power back to small businesses (It worked for 270+ years)

Re-regulate Wall Street

Take over health care as a national federal service... no more health care for profit

Bring back tariffs, to encourage keeping jobs in the US

Companies that refuse to pay taxes, or move factories overseas, or do other shennanigans, will NOT get any guv'ment contracts

Essential services, such as power and energy should be federalized (part of that mixed economy)

The right for labor to organize has to be guaranteed at the federal level, all this right to work shit has to stop

Small, micro loans, have to be offered to busineses to get going

I could go on... but I fear if they decide to go chicago school things will only get worst.

Oh and yes, some in the crazy right call this communism... I have a word for them, so how is their 401K doing these days?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zynx]

2. International trade with developed countries is just as sensible as free trade between the states.

The problem is free trade with the third world. That should not be going on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. The first thing that one has to understand is that Free Trade is not free

there are costs in it...

[Zynx]

16. I don't see the problem with free trade with the UK, Germany, France, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. If labor is cheaper in Canada, it will still move there, the building of cars

and so go the good jobs

Free Trade, as exists today is not free. The costs to the country have been horrendous

It would work if for example we had national health care and the cost of production per unit was about the same... or close enough where moving factories around would not make sense

[Zynx]

20. The shipping costs and transit times largely offset that.

That's like bitching about a company relocating from Washington State to Illinois.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. No it does not... see several Japanese companies

have looked at US States (Alabama comes to mind) but they decided on Ontario in the end... due to health care

[Zynx]

23. Yeah, but that speaks ill of our health care system, not trade.

I have no problem with companies making marginal decisions between roughly equal choices. I would be no more upset about a company locating in Germany instead of America than I am about factories moving from Wisconsin to Missouri.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Wrong, the decision came to 2000 extra per unit

that is what it came to

Free trade (as it stands right now and the RIGHT and DLC likes to peddle) is broken... really broken

And choices are not equal as is

[fascisthunter]

25. costs that cost the average American immediately and not the Investors

or those pushing this bankrupt ideology on the rest of us. The investor will feel it, eventually....

[Oregone]

6. The problem is more than free trade with the third world...

Look, one tenant of "free trade" is that capital/assets cannot be transfered from one region to another (in the trade area). For example, if it is cheaper to make cars in Canada (who is not third world), then we cannot allow factories in the US to be stripped, their machines shipped north, and all the workers fired. This still destroys the manufacturing sector (destroying a class of people who can actually buy products in the first place). Unfortunately, trade agreements do not account for this.

Another problem with free trade is subsidies/credits. Even first world nations can subsidize the production of products (though it is supposed to be illegal). Then you essentially have workers in one country producing widgets at zero cost, selling at incredible margins, and disrupting that industry with any trade partners (google agriculture subsidies and their impact on Mexico and Eastern Europe). Again, this puts people out of works and upsets their economical balance (and in the US/Mexico situation, it displaces farm workers into the United States).

Look, if the tax, subsidies, labor force, currency and manufacturing conditions between two regions are not acceptably homogeneous (as they are mostly in the United States) or the two regions to not have an equal level of trade advantages between all their exports/imports, then tariffs are are not a bad thing at all. Tariffs can be used to reinvest into job training to promote other areas of manufacturing, so that you can equalize trade eventually between two different sets of products. Tariffs can be used to not only protect workers from foreign government intervention (credits/subsidies/investments), but also to help transition those workers to a safer industry, while they are still competing domestically in the mean time.

[pampango]

45. Where do you draw the line on what qualifies as a "third world" country? Many are obvious,

but others are not.

Europe, Canada, Australia and Japan would seem to qualify as "developed countries". What about Eastern Europe, South Korea, Taiwan, Israel, the Gulf states (small populations, high per capita incomes based on oil revenue)?

If we limit the access of the third world to our market, do you have an alternative policy to deal with poverty in the developing world? Or are we back to the "Americans should worry about Americans", "let the Kenyans worry about Kenya" and the "Burmese worry about Burma"? Our concern for people should be based on their color (of their passports)?

[Oregone]

3. Can you pick out 2 things there you actually think will happen in the next term of two?

:)

Come on now...remember, a lot of this stuff is a result of not just Bush, but decades of mismanagement (including the snuggling up to big business during Clinton, including NAFTA, etc).

Health care...didn't Harry Truman put that in the Democratic platform in the 50's?

Its going to take more than a democratic president and congress (who signed off on a lot of this) do address half the list.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Historical storms like this one actually lead to change

anybody betting that FDR would form the WPA in 1932 would have been a fool

Same goes for some other measures of the era

We may get all of that list... as right now the pain is wide spread enough that there will be a demand

Not counting on it... but this storm is spreading world wide

There is no place to run

So happy dreams on that one

[Oregone]

9. Who knows...things were pretty bad first then,

Maybe they gotta get really bad before we can get anything done here. Unfortunately.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. By the time christmas rolls around you may get how bad things

really are already

[leftofthedial]

7. maybe what mcsame meant was the "fundament" is strong.

LOL


nationalize oil, health care, financial sector (insurance, banking, etc.) and all defense-related industries.

[100AcreWood]

8. socialism is coming ...

and now I think it'll be more sooner than later. The latest "rescue" of AIG is a de facto nationalization of a major corporation, and a big slice of a whole industry. More will follow.

Republican or Democrat in power, this is the inevitable current of history. Marx was right, just a little off in his time frame and diverted by the rise of the Soviet Union, which was NOT Marxism ... just a collectivized form of cronyism which delayed the downfall of capitalism by giving the military industrial complex a bogeyman.

This is our chance, and we should embrace it. I'm convinced now more than ever that the hour has come to radically transform our economic system from one based on competition to one based on egalitarianism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Would not bet on replacing one form of utopia for another

as is pure capitalism has not existed either...

Cronyism, with monopolies is not it either

And mixed economies do work best... by the way

[RB TexLa]

10. Are you kidding? Exports are up like 30% year to date. Kind of helping hold up the economy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. No I am not kidding... there is this thing called history

and I like to read it from time to time....

And the only reason they are up is the deflation of the dollar

Hell, the costs are forcing some companies to bring back factories, as their profits get wiped out in transport

[Greyhound]

15. The dollar and the "new" way that the numbers are calculated.

Thanks to the Junta, a single HP laptop now counts as an import, an export, and a domestic product. One computer gets credit for three, nice way to show things better than they are.

(those of you holding HP stock may want to look closer at this, BTW)

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Call me surprised. THey are doing this with all critical numbers

Historians may even call it the enron of the economy

[Hannah Bell]

19. because the dollar is down, uh.

[Raksha]

14. K & R - I totally agree...I've been thinking along the same lines

for a while now.

[nichomachus]

21. This is an excellent place to start

All these ideas may not fly -- but it's a great list to start from.

God knows, the way we've been going lately isn't working -- and anyone who thinks we can fix it by tweaking a few dials and pulling a few levers is cuckoo.

We need something dramatic and drastic.

[fascisthunter]

26. thank you....

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. You welcome... time to start talking of these issues

and chiefly organizing to make sure they happen... or at least part of the list

This is an opportunity.. and to paraphrase Greenspan, the kind that comes once every hundred years

[fascisthunter]

30. From what Little I Know of History...

I see a parrallel between today and the age of the Robber Baron. If there is one positive that will come of this mess, it's the total destruction of the "Free Market" and Friedman's bullshit economic theory. They failed....

Your list is a good one, and I hope to help in these discussions, but will probably read more to learn more rather than post as much as other more knowledgable folks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. You are correct, that is the other grand period of

trickle down economics

Oh did I mention the Grant Depression?

Same essential causes as well... but they kept the same mechanics and it led to the robber barons and in the end another depression at the end of it

major economic events of this type usually have republicans in charge... coincidence?

[fascisthunter]

33. "major economic events of this type usually have republicans in charge..."

nail meet hammer

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Why republicans don't want an informed population

:-)

[TransitJohn]

28. time to revoke some corporate charters

at the very least....best case scenario is

REVOKE CORPORATE PERSONHOOD!

FULL PUBLIC FINANCING OF ELECTIONS

:rant:

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. THANK YOU, forgot that MAJOR one

you are right

[bvar22]

31. K&R

:patriot:

Energy, Utilities, Transportation, Communications, Banking/Lending, HealthCare ALL need to be either nationalized, or heavily re-regulated.

NO corporation should be allowed to get "too big to fail".

Where have you gone, Teddy/Frankiln Roosevelt?
Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

[JNelson6563]

34. Well done!

Another good post on the economy. I think your ideas are very sound and would go a long way toward straightening things out.

I also enjoyed your post about the new hire you talked to in the coffee shop and have appreciated your posts in the Stock Watch Thread during these crazy times.

Disregard nasty little ankle biters. They are frustrated from sounding out the big words in your posts. Besides, DU would be boring without the shitflinging monkeys who know nothing else.

Keep those insights coming my dear. I ALWAYS read and enjoy them!

Julie

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. You welcome, now we have to be careful that Rubin does not

convince Obama to use Austerity Measures (cough, cough, Chicago School World Bank) or we are truly fucked

And Rubin, one of his econ advisors, IS a chicago boy

[bluedem77]

35. Key word: regulation

FDR knew it. That's why his strategy worked.

[fascisthunter]

36. regulation works for EVERYBODY... that will make a good bumper sticker

welcome to DU

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. It went much more beyond regulations

read the list above... it is truly Keinseian

But in my view removing corporate personhood would also help... quite a bit

Oh and certain acts in the books to dissolve monopolies... the kind not enforced in the last few decades

[libnnc]

40. You and a few others here (but mostly you) called it first.

You called it first.


The snark can eat shit and die.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. And I wish I could eat a nice helping of crow

There is one bright side to this.

IT IS HAPPENING NOW

They were not able to hold this disaster all the way to oh after the election, which I think was the plan

[Kablooie]

42. I take issue with one point...

It's not in the shitter because the shitter is sitting in the oval office.

[HughBeaumont]

43. The Feldstien/Friedman/Chi-school methods have churned out Randists in our schools.

This is why you have more than a few "useful idiots" that are more than happy to carry water for the Right by championing the 28-year proven failure that is "tinkle on" economics.

It's amazing that many people don't seem to get that because of our lousy way and tremendously high cost of doing health care, big business is forced to look elsewhere for employees.

It's also amazing that there are still people out there that think only the heavily degreed and privileged deserve to work. College is not meant for everyone, and I'm not sure what the greedbag wealthy (the prime source of this mess we're in now) thought when they shipped most of their plants to slave states. You kind of NEED the blue collar workers making good wages if you want the economy to churn at a great pace. What they did in the past 30 years helped no one but the wealthy make more money. Record profits didn't result in jobs coming back to Ohio and Michigan either; each state is a giant weeded-up parking lot. A truly strong economy EMPLOYS EVERYONE. Yet the "useful idiots" refuse to accept that they're peasants and hate anything labeled "sissy", so they keep shooting the Republican needle, thus continuing the lie.

One more thing you should add is to make higher education MORE affordable and MORE accessible, rather than (again) having a system where the student is an indentured servant well into his/her late 30s trying to pay a necessity back. Many workers cannot afford soaring college costs, putting them behind in competitiveness in their fields. I cannot go back to school because our work cut tuition reimbursement; $1500 bucks a class (not counting the hundreds paid in textbooks, which is another racket that adds to the problem) is simply too rich for my blood and I'm not taking on another student loan.

[earth mom]

44. I've long said that The Great Depression 2 is one of the things that will wake the people up.

Looks like it's almost upon us but will people learn and change from this experience?

Will the people ever wake the hell up?!

Old habits die hard you know.

But that said, what I fear is the plan of the powers that be is the implementation of the North American Union aka Deep Integration. They've had secret meetings about it for years with Canada and Mexico.

I really think *, Cheney, Rove and the rest of the powers that be will do whatever it takes to hang onto their power and control and finally shred the Constitution like they've been trying to do for close to 8 years now. * wants to be dictator after all, he even said so himself.

What's happening right now with the economy is the perfect opportunity (and likely planned and orchestrated) for them to make it happen.


FYI

Harper Not Just Americanizing, But Abolishing Canada

<snip>

Although our leaders deny that the deep integration “dialogue” or agreements will affect the sovereignty of Canada, the U.S., and Mexico, it seems obvious that as they create new supra-national organizations to "coordinate" everything from border security to health policy it is sovereignty and democracy that will suffer. What we are seeing is the creation of an unelected mega-government that answers to no one—except perhaps the giant multinational corporations who have been pushing for this for all these years. It is their CEOs who have been on the task forces and overseen the signing of the documents that have made their dreams a reality. It is these same corporations who will be able to not only influence but practically decide public policy, when everything comes down to whether North America is “competitive” enough and whether goods and services are being allowed to “flow freely” across the old borders.

<snip>

It will be up to regular citizens to understand and oppose this agenda and hold their politicians to account--before it’s too late.

more here:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article/210915992-harper-not-just-americanizing-but-abolishing-canada


more about the NAU:

Deep Integration Timeline

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/content/page/8-deep-integration-timeline



Timeline Of The Progress Toward A North American Union (this page hasn't been updated in awhile-see above link)

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article/163939368-timeline-of-the-progress-toward-a-north-american-union



Vicente Fox Favors a North American Union with a Common Currency and Criticizes U.S. Immigration Policy

http://americajr.com/news/vicentefox0912.html

[Odin2005]

46. It's time for a new New Deal. n/t.