I know this may not go over very well here at DU, but

[cboy4]

I'm sad to read so many negative comments about police officers on this board.

Let me first state that I absolutely condemn some of the tactics of law enforcement .. especially when it comes to civil disobedience. I believe the line of reasonable force is crossed far too many times, and it's shameful.

Let me also say I've had one very infuriating encounter with police, which prompted me to threaten legal action against a city, until all sides came to an understanding.

But, do you single out an entire race to hate because of the actions of some?

Of course you don't. At least, I'm hoping not.

And you shouldn't do this with all cops.

There are good ones and bad ones.

My brother, who is a progressive Democrat, works for the California Highway Patrol helping to, among other things, breath life into women and children who are ejected out of vehicles onto darken roadways in the middle of the night .. and pull passengers trapped in burning cars.

He also dodges out into Los Angeles traffic, grabbing debris from the freeways so families driving home don't crash.

I always worry about him dying.

I'm obviously a little biased, but I sure don't think he should be disliked for the behavior of others.

He is very loving and respectful .. and is not afraid to criticize his profession often when he sees things that bother him.

That's all. :)

[WeDidIt]

1. K&R

[aquart]

2. My first cousin is up for Chief of Police in a New Jersey town.

I am totally proud of him and his amazing, wonderful family.

[MissDeeds]

13. My brother is the chief of police in a KS town

He is a terrific guy and is loved by the citizens of his small town. It's heartwarming to see people stop him on the street or in the stores and thank him for his service and the positive impact he's made on the community.

Best of luck to your cousin, aquart.

[Alameda]

3. you are right, there are many brave and wonderful peace officers

[Kitty Herder]

4. I know many fine, decent cops.

My beef is not with cops, but with how they are sometimes used. For example, the abuses and the egregious violations of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and freedom to petition for redress of grievances that occurred in St. Paul during the RNC. That was not the fault of the cops, although I'm sure some of the sadistic ones used the opportunity to indulge their sadistic tendencies. Most of them were just doing the job they were assigned.

[bean fidhleir]

72. "Most of them were just doing the job they were assigned"

Unfortunately, the same can be said about any oppressive force.

Most of the concentration camp guards were just doing their job. And that applies to the Brits who invented concentration camps during the Boer War, the Germans during WW2, and the Americans at Abu Ghraib. Just doing the job they were assigned.

That's what the subjects in Milgram's experiment did, too - they obeyed orders and did the job. Water inspector "Pasqual Gino" described his experience at the end of the experiment: "Well, I faithfully believed the man was dead until we opened the door. When I saw him, I said, 'Great, this is great.' But it didn't bother me even to find that he was dead. I did a job."

People should never "just do" a job of oppression. Unless they walk away, the blood is on their hands too.

[Kitty Herder]

108. You make a great point.

I just hate to paint an entire group of people with a broad brush. I can imagine what it's like to be in their shoes. They have families depending on their paychecks and their health insurance, so they keep doing the job, even if it's wrong. Of course, the ethical and moral thing to would be to refuse. But I'm sure they would lose their jobs over that. I'm sure they try to rationalize what they're doing to make it acceptable to themselves. And, of course, there are the bastards among them who delight in the cruelty.

Like I said, I know many fine and decent cops. But I live in a rural community, and I can't imagine most of the cops I know ever participating in the kind of oppression that we saw in St. Paul. (But some of the ones I know I can easily imagine doing it.) Of course, you never know. They might. Hopefully, I will never have to find out.

[bean fidhleir]

147. "I'm sure they would lose their jobs over that"

That's the evil genius of the US system, I think. "Wage slave" is not the metaphor we'd prefer it to be. We really are enslaved because our very lives, ultimately, are dependent on our being obedient so that we don't lose our jobs. The system makes sure that if we lose our jobs, that event starts a cascade that, if not stopped by getting another job (which might not be possible), eventually leads to the loss of *everything*. Being a citizen conveys no rights - any of us can easily end up starving under a bridge somewhere.

I think, if I were a cop, I'd get flu any day I was scheduled to play Brownshirt in defense of the wealthy elites.

[FLAprogressive]

5. K+R!

[bowens43]

6. Most cops are honorable decent people

but far too many are completely out of control and tactics used on a daily basis by nearly all cops are completely unnecessary and over the top. What we need is far greater restrictions on the use of both lethal and non-lethal force. We need to see more cops who abuse their get long prison sentences. I'm sorry but using tasers on children and old ladies is way over the top.

[struggle4progress]

7. One of the best environmental activists I ever met wore the blue

[druidity33]

8. you can put lipstick

on a pig, but it's still a pig.

Pigs are nice. And they're really smart.

Why does everyone have to go and disparage pigs?


I like pigs.

:)

[zeemike]

9. It is not about the individual officer

it is about the system that they work in.
And I can say that in my life I have never been treated with anything but respect by every cop I came in contact with.
But then I am white too, and that makes a difference.
Most cops do what they are trained to do, and the system is training the m to punish the (perceived) bad guy, which is the job of the judicial system.
And there are a minority of cops that are in it because they are authoritarian in nature and just love punishing the bad guy at every opportunity.
And they give the good people in law enforcement a black eye.

[HillbillyBob]

36. Yes most are decent honorable people,

its the 10, 20 or 30% that want to be "Law and Order", the problem is with
those types that have the attitude of Do as I say, not as I Do type.
I have had some good encounters with police, even when i was in the wrong.
There have been several times where cops in question did nothing to help me,
I did nothing wrong, but was beaten, pepper sprayed, spied on, and had my home
invaded 3 times by police, even a few abu grhaib tactics used, dog scenes.
One tends to lose faith in the protect and serve part of their oath,
when they seem to have forgotten it. I think they need to work harder and weed
those kind out, they are psychopaths or latent.
Watching the video coverage of Amy Goodman getting roughed up for asking why her producer
and cameraman were arrested and roughed up for covering a protest,charges pending for rioting?! that was not violent the police were violent. There is something very wrong, but not new about sending the riot squad out to any gathering over 3 people. That was part of why
we fought the revolution, King George III did much the same.
I also wonder why no ID was posted on them anywhere, are they actually local
police or or they blackwater? and if so isn't there something in the Constitution
about no private armies And well regulated militia? They are a private army and they
are not regulated at all.....

[kikiek]

10. Thanks for posting this. This is exactly what I was feeling.

[PeaceNikki]

11. Anyone with power over you should constantly be questioned.

Yes, there are some here who are very vocal in their "hate" of cops, but I bet it comes from a series of very bad experiences. Being a minority or poor or both can result in a much different general "experience" with the police than being white.

The issue of racial disparity with regards to arrests, searches and seizures is very real. Calling it out and demanding better is not "bigoted". Here's some real data: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3252960

My state leads the nation in this racial disparity. There's an offense here called "driving while black" which is real. Minorities are pulled over more, harassed more, arrested more and generally treated like shit. Their "bigotry" of cops comes from a real place of first-hand experience.

ALWAYS question authority and ALWAYS insist that they can do better.

[Kitty Herder]

109. Yes, they should be questioned.

And their authority should not be total, as it is for all intents and purposes. They must be held accountable when they abuse their authority.

[Festivito]

12. DU and the police, we each have some greatness and some nuts.

Don't fall into making it a real pisser.

[seabeyond]

14. when these many outrages occur, especially tasering, does your brother stand up and say NO

when an off duty cop shoots a fellow citizen in a bumper accident and kills the man, and then is not even arrested or taken to police station, did he stand up and say UNACCEPTABLE. we cops must be processed like all other people.

you are right, there are too many cops going over the line today. it is not all cops. where are the "good" cops disgusted adn not allowing this behavior to escalate. they say nothing. they are part of the problem too. they are helping to create a worse problem than we have today by quietly and shamefully keeping their mouth shut.

i am a christian. not all christians are bad. majority are good people. and still those that keep mouth shut on what the fundamentalist are doing is as much IF not more responsible for what is going on in this nation with our religion. we have an obligation and responsibility to all of our nation to speak out against the hate in our religion. ANYONE that keeps mouth shut is part of the problem

cops have too much power, and when we create an environment where i have to teach my sons to be weary of the police, there is a problem. when an upper middle income, white, old woman doesnt respect police, there is a problem

instead of demanding a respect, cops need to reflect what the problem is when people like me dont trust or respect them.

[Fumesucker]

15. What impresses me the most about our police officers in America..

Is the huge number that come forward to expose corruption, malfeasance and misfeasance in their departments.

Every day we hear of police officers standing up for what is right and exposing the corruption of their fellow officers, this happens so often that the news gathering organizations cannot keep up with the flow of negative information, they are overwhelmed with the sheer number of whistleblowers in blue.


At the rate things are going, we should have the police forces around the country completely cleaned out of corrupt, vicious control freaks in mere months

[PeaceNikki]

16. Yes, there are a lot of brave and wonderful cops, but there are a lot of abusive horrible ones, too.

And denying that is willful ignorance. The problem is that they have our lives, safety and liberty in their hands. A bad cop is not equivalent to a bad waitress who fucks up your order. They fuck up your life.

[cboy4]

22. Okay PeaceNikki, I get it....but why the need for a second

post on this subject?

I read your first post perfectly fine.

And nowhere do I deny that there are horrible cops, if that's what you're insinuating.

I said there are good cops and bad cops in my OP.

You've obviously had terrible experiences with law enforcement .. so hopefully, a cop will be able to help you out some day and maybe you'll have the pleasure to display some gratitude for people who risk getting shot while you sleep safe in your bed.

[PeaceNikki]

26. No, I'm a young white woman in an affluent suburb. My personal experiences

are not a reflection of most. I've had cops help save my life when my abusive ex-husband hurt me. I appreciate what they do and have expressed gratitude for them doing their jobs. The reality is very different for many. We ALL have anecdotal evidence of a great cop we know, a friend or a relative. But, I bet the friends and relatives of the http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=299468">TWELVE off-duty cops who beat Frank Jude Jr to a bloody pulp all thought they were brave and wonderful, too.

[1monster]

61. That's a horrifying story. Did any of the perps ever get charged? Tried? Convicted?

[PeaceNikki]

70. It got very interesting. They were aquitted by an all-white jury in state trial

And pled guilty in a Federal trial.

The Wikipedia article is pretty thorough, but doesn't link well due to a comma in the URL. First hit here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=frank+jude+jr

The state trial

On March 27, 2006, a joint jury trial commenced, which was covered by Court TV. The prosecutors took the unusual step of challenging the racial composition of the jury when an all-white jury was selected. The court rejected the prosecutors’ challenge and permitted the case to proceed with an all-white jury, laying the groundwork for much community outrage. The prosecution’s task was made particularly difficult by the fact that nearly all of the eyewitnesses to the crime admitted drinking that evening, some heavily. Further, it was later revealed that one of the state’s key witnesses, Joseph Schabel, the first on-duty Milwaukee Police Officer to arrive at the scene, lied in his testimony. Also, the state was presented with credibility problems with respect to its two victims. Frank Jude had previously been convicted of the felonies of selling marijuana and bribing a police officer in 1996 and was convicted of the misdemeanors of battery and disorderly conduct in 2000. Lovell Harris was previously convicted of being a felon in possession of a firearm and was charged with first degree intentional homicide (on-line court records do not indicate if he was convicted of this crime).

Shortly after 11 PM on April 14, 2006, after deliberating for roughly 27 hours, the jury returned its verdict, acquitting Andrew Spengler and Daniel Masarik. Jon Bartlett was acquitted of second-degree recklessly endangering safety but the jury deadlocked on the charge of substantial battery. It was the only felony jury trial that District Attorney E. Michael McCann ever lost in his 38 years as a prosecutor.

Community outrage

The acquittal drew prompt community outrage. Even despite the late-hour, a small group of protesters, led by Alderman Michael McGee, Jr., marched through the streets surrounding the county courthouse. There were prompt calls for federal charges. On April 18, 2006, a crowd of 3,000 to 5,000 people marched from the Milwaukee County Courthouse to the Federal Courthouse demanding a federal investigation. On May 15, 2006 a motorcade of more than 300 cars delivered a petition to United States Attorney Steven Biskupic demanding a federal investigation. In response to these demonstrations United States Attorney Steven Biskupic promised a full investigation.

[1monster]

93. Yeah, I'm sure that guy battered himself so he could sue for damages later

"Jon Bartlett was acquitted of second-degree recklessly endangering safety but the jury deadlocked on the charge of substantial battery.'...

Isn't it strange how the winingest prosecutor will lose so easily on what should have been a slam dunk case? :eyes:

[cboy4]

69. Yea, you do a lot of betting PeaceNikki.

But in the end, you have no idea what the friends and relatives thought.

Stop bringing extreme examples into this discussion, when those stories/incidents are few and far between.

[PeaceNikki]

74. Here's the every day "non-extreme" reality for minorities treatment by cops

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3252960

I posted that already and you ignored it.

[Chovexani]

140. Thanks, Nikki.

:hug:

[bettyellen]

113. actually friends are relatives are usually pretty aware of their loved one's cowardice and callow

behaviour... but thanks for making shit up for dramatic effect. Bravo !

[HEyHEY]

114. I don't get it

[bettyellen]

119. she's assuming that anyone who know a cop has some sort of wool pulled over their eyes..

the few truly big assholes on the job that i've met- it was pretty obvious to everyone around them. if your scary like that, it's not so easy to hide. Hi Hi Hey Hey.

[PeaceNikki]

121. That's not what I said. Secondly, there were 12 cops involved in that story I linked.

And several more who, while not involved in beating, lied for the other guys. I don't think it's a stretch to say that at least of few of them have friends and family that thought they were wonderful, upstanding, honorable men. While I can't say that with certainty, I think it's a safe assumption.

And I know several cops. All but one appear to be good people. I have never broad brushed ALL cops, but pointed out that it's a position that is inherently full of corruption and yes, even some really bad people.

As I stated a few times here, most of my personal interactions with police have been helpful, courteous, kind and occasionally, dare I say, pleasant. But I am not blind nor am I a "cop-bigot" as I've been called here, because I see the racial disparity, abuse of power and evil that can, and often does, go with the job. No, not all cops. But we need to keep busting the bad ones and calling attention to their corruption or we run the risk of them becoming the rule rather than their exception.

[bettyellen]

122. so now you meant to say few (not all) of the friends and relatives, and didn't mean to broad brush

your mistake, thank you.

"But, I bet the friends and relatives of the TWELVE off-duty cops who beat Frank Jude Jr to a bloody pulp all thought they were brave and wonderful, too."

[PeaceNikki]

123. But I didn't say "anyone who know a cop has some sort of wool pulled over their eyes".

[bettyellen]

124. that was your implication - they are all fooled into thinking they are good people. ALL of them.

you do know that's what the expression means? all these people don;t know there loved ones (not like you do, huh? )
and you do realize there's no broader brush than the one you chose buy saing "all"?

[PeaceNikki]

125. Did you read the rest of my post(s) or were you mezmerized by that one word?

Just curious.

[bettyellen]

127. yeah, you're obviously so passionate- but why you need to exagerrate and totally broadbrush

people is beyond me. it's dishonest as well as alienating.
you mean well, i'm sure but you're so over the top, it really works against you. hey, i'm not the only one who thinks so,,,, many of your responses say much the same. not all, but many.
goodbye + peace.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

42. No, there aren't.

A few, but not a lot.

[PeaceNikki]

45. Yes, there are.

It varies greatly by location. I am not saying that there are more bad than good, but there are a lot of bad and the bad are VERY bad.

I, personally, live in WI where the racial disparity of arrests and convictions is the worst in the nation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3252960

In addition, it's blatantly obvious when you see how minorities are treated and how these neighborhoods are patrolled and protected (or not). Milwaukee is a very racially segregated city.

[midnight]

107. You bring up a wonderful point. And that is why we need

only excellence in that uniform and nothing less.

[RB TexLa]

17. Good for him, I doubt there are many of them that will stop for a car accident

or a car on fire.

[Vickers]

19. Have you seen cops drive by a car on fire?

:shrug:

[cboy4]

23. Of course, they all drive by, racing to the donut shop.

:eyes:

[RB TexLa]

24. Sure. They aren't the fire department.

[Vickers]

47. Can you tell me a date/location that this happened?

I'm sure that a simple Google search of local sources can confirm that a car fire did indeed take place.

Otherwise I'd just have to conclude that you are talking out of your ass, and we *know* that's not possible!

[RB TexLa]

85. Do you think police officers put fires out? What the hell would they care?

There are signs over the freeways that say non-injury accident pull over to the side and don't call 911.

[annarbor]

89. In my 17 years as a cop....

I have ran into two buildings and extinguished two car fires. Ann Arbor is not that large so the the fire department was not too far away. I have also performed CPR on more people than I can remember.

I've never beaten or mistreated a soul and I served on the department's Internal Affairs Department for several years. During my tenure there I had two of our officers fired and a couple placed on extensive suspension.

And for what it's worth I've been a member of DU since 2002. One year after its inception.

Ann Arbor

[RB TexLa]

90. I think you replied to the wrong post

[annarbor]

92. No, I was replying to your question about car fires....

[RB TexLa]

94. Then why did you post all the stuff about that other crap?

[annarbor]

95. Define "Crap"

My response was to you and to many other statements made on this posting.

[RB TexLa]

96. Well that explains why I thought and think it is in the wrong spot.

[annarbor]

97. Bottom line...I never drove past car fires...

That was my primary point....

Asked and answered.

Peace-

[RB TexLa]

100. OK, but you sounded like I should be on the look out for a property tax vote for police

salaries or something.

[annarbor]

101. Sorry, but you completely lost me on that one...

I am truly sorry that you feel the way you do about cops. I truly am.

[RB TexLa]

102. I don't feel any way about cops.

[annarbor]

98. Double post-self delete

[Vickers]

129. So you *admit* you are talking out of your ass?

SHOCKING!

:rofl:

[RB TexLa]

142. I am not really familiar with that slang expression. Sorry.

[cboy4]

144. You don't seem like you're familiar with much.

No offense of course.

:dunce:

[RB TexLa]

145. No, just slang doesn't hold any importance to me.

[cboy4]

148. Right on. Just as long as you've come to terms that you don't

seem familiar with much.

[RB TexLa]

149. Why do you seem to be insulting toward me? Are you wanting to insult me?

Why?

[cboy4]

150. Listen, anyone would have to be borderline retarded

to actually think a cop would not stop if he or she saw a car on fire.

You're either an idiot or you're ignorant or you're stubborn. I'll let you choose.

If you're simply ignorant, I don't necessarily wish to insult you. I'd theoretically like to educate you.

Unfortunately, I suspect you're trying to play dumb to trigger a response because you hate cops.

Well you triggered responses so you got your wish.

So yes, Why?

Why are you mad at me?

[RB TexLa]

151. Not ignorant, no mental or physical retardation, and I have no feelings toward cops.

Really got your little insults in there didn't you. I don't expect people of any profession to stop at accidents. In a non-injury accident the police do not become involved, a fire doesn't change if there is an injury or not.

Maybe it's you expect of people and I don't. If someone did, that's fine, but I would never expect it of someone.

I can't be mad at you it's an internet message forum.

[cboy4]

152. State troopers would be fired if they didn't stop at accidents...

especially fiery accidents.

They stop because they have to check to make sure everyone is okay and nobody is trapped in a burning car.

And what do you mean the police don't become involved if there's an injury involving a fiery crash?

Who takes the report and interviews witnesses?

You cannot be for real.

[RB TexLa]

154. There isn't a citation issued in every single car accident. People exchange insurance information

and go on. The police tell you if you call them that they don't come out for every accident. Most accidents the people involved just take care it of themselves. You see them closing lanes and moving traffic around it if the people aren't able to get their cars to the side of the road. But if no one's hurt, no traffic is blocked, and there isn't any argument over who's at fault, I can't see what they are needed for.

[cboy4]

156. No, no....don't change the subject. We're talking about

cops stopping for accidents when a car is on fire.

You're on record as saying you don't see what a cop would stop for a fiery car accident.

That's a far cry from a fender bender where nobody is hurt and people can in fact exchange information.

SO you tell me why you can get it through your skull why any cop in their right mind would drive by a fiery crash.

You're the only person here at DU who doesn't get it RGBolen.

[RB TexLa]

157. I'm not trying to be insulting or degrading toward you but I think you do expect of other people

I think that is what this comes down to. I really don't mean to insult you, but that's what I think.

[cboy4]

158. No, pay close attention RGBolen. Cops will be fired if they

don't stop at fiery accidents.

That's all you need to know. It's in their job description and it's a responsibility, and even the most challenged simpleton would know it's the right thing to do.

It's irrelevant whether the occupants are safe and sound and decide to roast hot dogs over the burning wreckage.

Cops stop, if not to double check the welfare of everyone involved .. to handle what will be one nasty ass traffic mess.

Oh my gosh I'm being so nice.

[Vickers]

162. Why aren't you familiar with that slang expression?

:shrug:

It seems to be common enough. Did you try to Google it, or are you being intentionally hebetudinous?

[RB TexLa]

163. Didn't search anything for it. They aren't that important.

[Vickers]

169. Well aren't YOU the intellectually curious one!

:rofl:

Lemme guess...your dad is an oilman!

[RB TexLa]

170. He's dead. Slang expressions have no importance. I searched babys mama when Fox

made it something by using it and causing people to think it was an appropriate way to speak.

[Vickers]

171. Yeah, my dad croaked, too.

Fucking kick in the pants, huh?

[cboy4]

172. LOL....I'm of course not laughing at your dad, but at the

absurdity of the other poster.

I still don't believe a word he says.

[Vickers]

175. Oh, c'mon now! What's not to believe?

Here are some unimpeachable things he's posted:

- Police officers routinely drive by car fires without stopping.

- He doesn't understand ANY slang.

and

- He doesn't try to insult anyone!

It's like a fucking hat trick of honesty!

:crazy:

[cboy4]

176. hahahahaha

:rofl:

[ieoeja]

178. I'm sure he's not familiar with the slang "croaked".

If you do not speak proper English, do not expect RGBolen to be interested in what you state.

[Vickers]

179. That's why I posted it.

:P

[Fla Dem]

86. I'm sorry, but that is just so lame. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

18. My father in law

is also a detective in NYC. He's a kind and generous man, and he's who made me really respect the police force. Sure, there are some corrupt bad eggs, but they also put their lives on the line every day.

[Brewman_Jax]

20. A job is a choice

being a cop is a choice; being a minority/other race is not.

[Orsino]

21. I think that all American police are entrusted with too much power.

Sufficient checks are desperately needed.

That we don't see universal corruption among cops is a tribute to the honor and benevolence of most officers. That the actions of a few do so much harm is an indictment of the system that fails to protect us.

[Eurobabe]

25. I guess I am lucky, I have had only good encounters with Police Officers

Even the one I hit in 1993 on a cold December evening, my car slipped on black ice as I was turning the corner, and I bumped into an Police SUV, no damages to either car, he was very nice about it, I was totally embarrassed. :blush:

There's bad apples in every field, just as there are good people.

Let's hear it for the public servants who put their lives on the line everyday. :applause:

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

27. It's kind of like lawyers,

people hate them until they need one.

[Romulox]

28. Most people interact with cops as REVENUE GENERATORS/TAX COLLECTORS

Cops working the speedtrap are a lot like old time highwaymen.

[LanternWaste]

29. I imagine that...

I think for the most that LEO's who simply do their jobs never make the news so we really don't hear too much about them. But the LEO's who cross the line in one way or another get a 30-second spot on the local or national news once or twice a week (and figure prominently in film). Since we really only hear about the bad ones, we come a conclusion.

Kind of like the way many of my peers and friends perceive today's teens-- since we really only hear about the ones who cause fights or shoot up schools, we tend to project that image of them on all teens-- even the 99.99% of the them we never hear about who simply go to school, get good grades and graduate.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

30. You can't compare racism with anti-police sentiment.

Racism denigrates someone because of an innate quality that they have no control over, but police officers are free to leave their profession at will.

Bad cops (some, but not all, obviously) use the authority granted to them by the government to commit their deeds.

If a black/Latino/Asian/etc. person commits a crime, it has nothing to do with their genetic makeup, so someone blaming them as a group makes no logical sense.

[Aeval]

31. Thanks for the reminder...

I know that I have been guilty of generalizing about police officers becasue of the actions of a few, or sometimes even many, of them. I appreciaate the reminder and the example you give of a truly good officer who serves and protects.

[Dogtown]

32. It all comes with the badge

Anyone thin-skinned enough to be bothered by it shouldn't be in law enforcement.

That's why the police officers on this forum don't constantly "flame-on".

So, #1, we're not upsetting anyone that's on the job.

2nd, that badge is a symbol. Symbols make us react positively or negatively. The symbol itself is neither good or bad, of course. If there are extreme abuses enacted under aegis of that symbol it will evoke a negative response, even if there is also good performed. Since a police officer is necessarily objectified by that symbol (and rightly so) the officer is also judged as the symbol is judged.

If law officers don't want their image tarnished, they need to act responsibly and pro actively to end the negative aspects of that image. In short, they need to rid themselves of the elements that besmirch their image. Fortunately, they are most able to rat out their abusive brothers. Unfortunately, they seldom do.


I think your concern is misplaced.

[cboy4]

49. I'm not a cop, so I'll plan on continuing to be thin-skinned

for him and others in his profession who do a good job.

My concern is very well placed, but thanks for weighing in.

[Dogtown]

78. I didn't mean to offend

I'm not anti-cop. Every person does good things as well as bad. Certainly applies to cops, too.

My point is that they accept and understand that many folks feel that way about them; hence, they don't let it affect them. They are warned about it when they apply for the job, they're trained in dealing with it in the academies, and they're tested on it in interviews for jobs.


It is a non-issue.

Add to that, the only people that can change that perception is the police themselves. Very often, peer-pressure convinces them *not* to inform on other officers that have violated rules and broken the law. I'm not judging anyone when I say that; I imagine that peer-pressure is sometimes life-threatening.

But *that* danger is what they volunteered for also.

[KG]

33. i have 2 beefs with LE.

mostly, they have allowed themselves to become paramilitaries. they no longer serve the citizenry, they serve the interests of power.

moreover, when a cop goes bad, the supposed 'good ones', rather than weed them out of the ranks, protect them, justify the misdeeds, and therefore enable further abuses.

and then they act surprised when people express a negitive view LE.

[Symarip]

34. Hey Man. I'm sorry.

Yesterday I posted that All Cops Are Bastards, which I'm sure some people read. It's hard to see things the other way when you've been on the receiving end of a nightstick to the head... More than once. I'll admit that it's a hard stereotype for me to get over.

I'll explain a little of my background. I grew up in gang culture in Vista and Oceanside, California. In the valleys where the ghetto's are, where I grew up, the cops are just as twisted as the dealer and the gunrunner. The only thing the cops really protected, besides themselves, where the rich folk up in the hills. God forbid you ventured up into those parts in a beat up car after dark. Or worse, dated a girl from those areas.

I've had my head beat in by cops. And the K-9 unit released on me and my friends. I've seen cops beat the living fuck out of people after concerts and during parties. I've been permanently put on gang files (as far as I know) because of where I grew up, my tattoo's, and my friends. The same cops who used to sell my friends drugs, would also be the ones who'd arrest them for possession. In other states, like Southern Virginia, I've been pulled over for more or less having a black friend in my car. I've also been a passenger in a car with a black friend driving who was pulled over and harrassed for basically being black and having too nice of a car. Like I said yesterday, in my whole life, I've never said to myself, 'thank god the cops are here.'

Basically, the only good cops I've ever read about are in books and on the internet. But it's not right for to generalize a whole profession. To do so is nearly as bad as generalizing a race or gender or sexual preference. Your relative sounds like a good man and I'm sure he is.

I'm sorry.

[cboy4]

50. Thanks for your post Symarip.....you don't know how

fiercely opposed I am to police brutality.

I can tell you my Obama-supporting brother could never behave that way, which is why I used him as an example of someone who does the right thing.

My relative (brother) is a good man, lol. And my two sisters, not in a law enforcement, are good women.

All of us are Democrats .. it's how we were raised. :)

[annarbor]

103. Symarip...Thank you for your post

[aikoaiko]

35. Most of my interactions with the popo have been very good.

But yes, there are few bad apples and sometimes otherwise good cops have bad moments and they all need to be held accountable for their actions.

[ourbluenation]

37. POLICE = UNIONS

A victory for one is a victory for all

[treestar]

38. Nobody should be condemned for a job they are in

It's just a job; all jobs have good and bad people in them.

Though I don't think it an insult to the cops to believe their powers should be limited and that they and the people should understand that and that it is a good thing. That's just following the Constitution. But I get what you mean.

[bvar22]

39. The ENTIRE Police Depts. of Minneapolis/St Paul,

..from the Chief down to the individual Storm Trooper in the Street, carrying out their "orders" without visible ID or Badge Numbers, are worthy of direct criticism, SHAME, and criminal prosecution.

Every Single One.

[Bake]

40. I don't dislike them, but I don't automatically trust them either.

In fact, my "default" position is distrust, until they give me a reason to trust them.

Bake

[uppityperson]

41. k&r for good cops, problem is a few bad ones REALLY spoil the whole bunch.

The problem with bad cops, is they have SO much power over you, can do SO much harm so fast. Based on a few nasty interactions with them in recent yrs, I have come to distrust them because while they probably will be the good ones, they could be the bad ones and I would be in really bad trouble.

[David Zephyr]

43. K&R.

You said what needed to be said and you said it well. Thanks!

[tjwash]

44. It's always the same small group that pile on every time, so don't let it bug ya!

k-r

[tuckessee]

46. Comparisons to race are ridiculous and should not be tolerated on progressive sites.

It just shows how delusional cop bunnies are and how desperate they are to deflect the righteous outrage which police deserve.

Cops volunteer for their jobs and are vetted & selected by superiors. They receive pay. People are born into a race, ethnicity or sex. No choice, no pay.

If there are so many good cops, why are there so few whistle blowers about the deeds of bad cops?

I see cops as breaking down into two categories - bad cops and those who enable bad cops by cowardly (or should I say comradely) not reporting & testifying about bad cops.

Good cops are the ones who quit in disgust after a few years.

[cboy4]

52. Comparisons to race are ridiculous and should not be

tolerated on progressive sites.

Cop bunnies? :wtf:

Your prejudiced view is no different than people who think all black folks steal or all white folks are members of the Klu Klux Klan, or all Latino folks are illegal immigrants.

You're what I'm talking about.

:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

[Solon]

48. Comparing an occupation to race is not even logical...

First off, you actually have a choice in occupation, not so much so for race, in addition, certain occupations come with requirements for recruitment and have standards and expected codes of behavior, Law Enforcement is one of the most obvious. Also, in addition, certain professions attract certain kinds of people, Police Departments seem to attract two types in general, those who want to actually help the community, and those who want power over regular citizens.

In addition, local police departments develop reputations for certain things, that are simply unavoidable because, as far as I can tell, the "good" cops do nothing to stop it. You don't want to be a black person in my county, you will be harassed for "driving while black" and many other things can happen to you as well. They also developed a reputation of stealing drugs from people, mostly Marijuana, and using it themselves. This aren't rumors, hell, I've seen it myself, its just one of those things you live with when you have a corrupt police department.

That is the other issue, corruption, unlike race, which has no hierarchy police departments do, and all you need is one corrupt chief of police, or sheriff, to basically spoil the entire force.

[cboy4]

53. My point is reasonable, intelligent people don't judge a

whole group of any people based on what some people do.

Only idiots are guilty of that.

[kenfrequed]

56. alright then...

How about this for an analogy.

In st paul there were over 15,000 protesters, of which less than 500 were arrested (and most were released because there really wasn't an actual crime committed). Does this mean, since the rate of criminality of the protesters was lower than that of the population at large.

So, squaring that, how is it possible to defend, or even handicap against, any complaint of police state tactics or brutality that were used agaisnt said protestors?

[cboy4]

59. How about I contend that all of those people in St Paul

were thugs and deserved to be gassed?

How ridiculous of me to suggest such a thing.

But it's a great illustration of condemning an entire group.

Some how, you insinuate that I defend firing tear gas at a peaceful crowd that is dispersing.

I already clarified in my OP that I don't like the tactics often used against people who are involved in civil disobedience.

I'm not sure what else you want from me.

[kenfrequed]

62. What else I could want?

Well maybe an acceptance that there is something unique about policing that requires we either hold them to a higher standard or completely reform the model for 'law enforcement.'

Honestly I can say that most people that seek out a career in law enforcement do so for entirely the wrong reasons. It is a clearing house for the violent, the 'thrill seekers,' the insecure, and the bullies.

I just don't think putting out a blurb about 'not blaming all cops' really doesn't solve the problem.

There is a culture in law enforcement where the abusers and exceeders and closet facists are not just covered but practically coddled. Contrary to absurd movies where the police are constantly 'under seige' by the public for their excesses and suspensions are given out for the slightest infraction, violent cops often stay on doing what they are doing again and again and again. Also false is the idea that criminality is out of control and somehow police are being attacked by armies of violent criminals.

Those myths only discuss business as usual police matters. When you throw this at a protest all rules are off. Few police have EVER been prosecuted or pursued for the excessive violence used in a protest. Excuses like "well it was a riot" or "it was all so confusing" are perfectly acceptable to the supposed 'peacekeepers' but rarely are usable by the people being scraped across the concrete or beat down. Worse still they have no available recourse for their punishment, even if they happen to just be people wandering in at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Worse still are the enablers. Agent Provecateurs are not usually there with the motive to repress freedom or defeat free speech. The rationale used for such behavoir, if you can even find a policeman that will talk to you about it is that "...it makes their job easier."

What? Do we have a thousand people standing in a crowd in an inconvenient location? Or do we want to call police off of a non-violent protest? Or maybe the parade isn't movign quickly enough. Well just have someone in a mask throw a brick or two and suddenly you have justification to move them wherever you want.

Or maybe you can just have a few plain clothes move throw the crowd spritzing select people with a bit of pepper spray as was done even in supposedly liberal Montreal.

Of course this mentality of justified violation is enabled when our higher ups approve loosely warranted pre-emptive raids or begin keeping illegal files on protesters thereby violating their rights of freedom of association.

[cboy4]

64. Oh my Lord. You can 'honestly say that most people

that seek out a career in law enforcement do so for entirely the wrong reasons.' :spray:

Now you've lost all credibility, because as we all know, there's not a way in hell you're smart enough to know what's in the minds of people who seek careers in law enforcement.

You have an agenda, and instead of responding carefully to my points, you just want to preach and spout your anti-law enforcement talking points.

You're ridiculous.

[kenfrequed]

75. ...

Ok, since you select one line out of my post and decide to dismiss it COMPLETEY perhaps I should do something similar with your absurd accusation of my using 'anti-law-enforcement-talking-points.'

There is no such thing.

I neither subscribe to nor am a member of nor do I work for nor even know where the hell to look for 'anti law enforcement talkign points.' While to those that always seem to crop up to defend law enforcement, my arguments may seem familier, maybe even cliche, they are not a part of any organized effort or attempt to 'go after' law enforcement.

My observations are my own, and some of them are even completely factually supported. And I use actual logic occasionally as well.

I also love the fact that you throw in a bit of an ad hominem about my intelligence in your 'argument' as well.

As to my having an agenda? Well of course not. I read books voraciously and two and a half newspapers a day. Apparantly I also post on progressive web boards. So obviously I have no agenda, no politics, and no opinion on the state of things or on how I see events unfold before me.

But I digress, my agenda is simple, though perhaps a bit idealistic, and it is real social and economic justice.

[cboy4]

146. I said you're not smart enough to read the minds of people

who choose a career in law enforcement.

It means, you're not a genius. You have no super powers. You're just a mortal.

Reading books and newspapers does not make you an expert on why people choose law enforcement careers.

That may make you irate to hear, but someone has to break the news to you because you seem to think you're a fricken mind-reader.

YOU ARE NOT

[kenfrequed]

167. I'm sorry

But I would trust someone that read studies, newspapers, and books over someone whose relationship to the subject at hand was merely familial. Would a familial and sympathetic reaction be enough to fix a television? Program a computer? If anything that kind of emotional proximaty is even less useful.

Everytime police brutality makes the news an unending screech of 'exceptions to the rule' and 'a few bad apples.' And the only way anything really gets done if it is absurdly excessive or if someone manages to videotape it. Of course even in those cases the officers usually aren't tried and if they are, they tend to get off.

But since you seem immune to any other arguments, why not take the word of an actual cop. Michael Quinn wrote a fantastic book called "Walking with the devil." It explains part of the culture of law enforcement from an insiders perspective and though it never saw the amount of distribution needed it certainly sounds a call to change the nature of law enforcement.

[Dorian Gray]

155. To be honest

that line is the line that I read and remembered most from your post, too. And it is an unknowable broad-brush as you can't possibly know the minds of MOST of the people who become officers of the law.

While I admit that there is corruption in many police precincts, and there can be a boys in blue network, I also think that there are many cops out there who want to do the right thing, who put their life on the line, and who deserve my respect.

In other words, I can acknowledge the problems in the profession while giving them my respect. It is what I would do for any large group of people.

But, since they are in a position of authority, they should be held to a higher standard, as any politician, religious leader, or officer of the law should. That's why, I think, when they break our trust or violate our rights, it is infuriating. And that's why there is an inherent distrust of them, I think.

[kenfrequed]

168. Respect is earned.

I do not give automatic deference to people that I am supposed to. Especially if they hold my health and safety in their hands and even moreso if they hold in their hands the capacity and license to use force, even if there are rules.

As to putting their lives on the line, police work is far from the most dangerous work. This 'putting their lives on the line' schtick is as much a function of stupid action movies as anything else. Coal miners, meat packers, taxi drivers, convenience store clerks, and even construction workers have far higher rates of on the job death and on the job accident.

I cannot imagine why people are selecting out that one line when I say far more damning things in subsequent paragraphs with far greater punch.

I maintain that it is my opinion that most people go into law enforcement for the wrong reasons.

[cboy4]

174. Now you have to explain how LE is

far from the most dangerous work.

You're really a champion a-hole, aren't you?

[kenfrequed]

177. Well...I was a little off

Follow the link. top ten most dangerous jobs in America. No mention of law enforcement or even security.



http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P63405.asp

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/01/08/cb.danger/index.html

http://health.howstuffworks.com/10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america.htm

http://news.thomasnet.com/IMT/archives/2007/09/most_dangerous_jobs_bureau_of_labor_statistics_2006_2007.html


I will admit it, I was a little off here and there on my lists, but at least a few of mine actually made the list. I missed farmer and many of my relatives are farmers herocially struggling to feed us all.

Not on any of these are law enforcement listed as among the most dangerous or life threatening jobs.

[Greyhound]

51. Only one question; Has your brother ever turned in or testified against another cop that

committed one of the thousands of offenses against civilians that happen all the time there?

[cboy4]

54. I have no idea....And whether he has or hasn't doesn't

erase away the good that he does.

Do you go around ratting out co-workers at your office to the boss?

[Greyhound]

66. Completely different issue and you know it. Bad cops ruin people's lives

and destroy the respect of other officers with the community and further degrade our society. The bizarre "us against them" attitude that is so pervasive in departments all across the country causes most of the problems the force faces, they bring it on themselves.

We all have to decide whether we will do the right thing or help things get worse, sometimes those decisions have difficult consequences and require sacrifice, going along just makes things worse for everybody and is selfish at it's core.

[cboy4]

68. Well don't insinute that my brother is part of the good old boys

club.

I can promise you that will never prompt a happy response from me.

[Greyhound]

91. Your response is beside the point, it is a question of doing the right thing.

This country was founded by "terrorists" that put it all on the line to do the right thing, and most of them paid a very heavy price for those decisions, many paid the ultimate price. Do you think they should have taken the easy route?

Going along to get along, whether it is actually taking part, covering up, or just saying nothing, when one of your colleagues plants evidence, lies in his report, beats the hell out of someone because "they deserved it" or any of the other daily offenses committed by LEOs every day all over the nation, is itself wrong and a crime.

Why did he go into law enforcement in the first place?

[cboy4]

153. No response will please you greyhound1966 as your

bias is clearly cemented in your brain.

"Gee, why did your brother decide to go into a career where he could help people and feel good about what he does for a living cboy4? I'm just stumped. Why I can't understand why people become firefighters or doctors either. It's quite the mystery."

Please.

[ElboRuum]

99. If they beat the shit out of someone? Yep.

[eshfemme]

55. I posted on a thread before that was inciting hatred for police

in an ambiguous situation as the video posted of a police incident with a protester at the DNC was obviously edited for the protester. I don't want to go into too much but it was arguable that the police officer had a reason for pushing the protester back (the amount of force used was arguable adequate) while the protester's taunting behavior wasn't being examined or was being justified as a right that all citizens have. I think several other people posted that wasn't the automatic "OMFG police are pigs" stance and those people immediately got accused of being fascists, pig sympathizers, Nazis, etc. So yeah, I find that attitude juvenile.

I also come from a neighborhood in Queens where the citizenry is lawful and the police force is generally very respectful of the citizens. Also, I ironically have had exposure to the actual police because of general family hysterics (long story short, once was forced to accompany my parents to the station to put out an APB for my sister who didn't have a cell phone and was out much later than usual and to bail out my dad who got caught driving with a license that got suspended for too many unpaid parking tickets). So generally, I have experienced a mutually respectful relationship with the police. That is not to say that my neighborhood doesn't have crime but for the most part, the neighborhood police station is that, a part of the neighborhood and it shows.

What I find disturbing is when people are so vociferous in their hatred of the police, they are projecting all their anger and frustration from specific incidents with specific officers on the police in general. This is the exact same foaming at the mouth kind of bigotry that these same people vilify the Nazis, white supremacists and right wing trolls for doing so it's disturbing for me to witness this in fellow DUers who are supposed to be more rational and reasonable.

Just as there are just as many bad stories about bad cops, there are actually just as many good stories of good cops but those stories are never told. It's always stories about police brutalities because those are OUT OF THE NORM. When a police officer helps out, these stories are never told because you know why? They're just doing their fucking job. I don't envy the police for the crap they have to deal with although it's no excuse for the excesses that you hear about on the news.

So here are some good stories from my own personal experience to counter those bad stories:

1) My mom woke me up in the middle of the night to call 911 because she witnessed someone who get injured in a fight (smashed in the head with a glass bottle) across the street while his attackers ran away. The EMTs and police got there to take care of the guy who was left behind and to find out what happened. There was no harassment, just simply a case where they needed to pursue who assaulted the guy. Professional and by the book.

2) One of the commercial parking lots in my parking hungry neighborhood was going to be sold to developers who wanted to pave it over and make a shopping mall out of it. The Koreans in my neighborhood (my neighborhood is a Little Korea, Little Taipei, Jewish town, Chinatown, Little Italy, etc all in one) were especially incensed since that particular parking lot was serving a lot of local Korean businesses. Now, the Korean culture is actually very pro-protests and they're very aggressive in their protests. So they brought out the drums and signs and came out to parade en masse. Even though all the noise and ruckus they were making would have been troubling in any other neighborhood, the police from their membership in our community knew that it was just the locals being themselves and didn't take it as anything else. It was peaceful, the police presence was just to prevent possible accidents (because they were protesting in the street) and it was fun(ny) to watch.

3) My mom (who is a HUGE procrastinator) was doing the final paperwork on her naturalization process after 20 odd years as a resident alien. She needed to have her fingerprinting done. She'd submitted it but was told to re-submit another fingerprint card because a few fingerprints had gotten smudged. So you know what she did? She just went to the police station 2 blocks away and asked the police officers there to help her. And they did. They were professional and helpful and they did it for free.

4) I can't count the number of times that we had to call in a noise complaint because someone's car alarm went off in the middle of the night. And every single time, the police simply came by to either find the owner or disable it. No fuss and no muss.

5) My sister didn't come home one day in junior high school at the time she usually did. After a few hours waiting for her to come back and my parents working themselves up into a tizzy, they decided that they needed to file a missing person's report (Yeah, I know, my parents are crazy). This was when cell phones were still too prohibitively expensive for anyone in my family except for my dad who had it for business purposes. Of course, I knew and told my parents that you need to wait for 24 hours to file a missing person's report but they still insisted on going to the police station. The police there basically said OK, we'll put out an APB for her. I sat there and listened to them give my crazy parents the time of day simply because they were so anxious and the police wanted to help. Of course, in the end, it all turned out that my parents were crazy because my sister just happened to be hanging out with her friends and lost track of time.

So yeah, you can see why I prefer that not all cops get tarred with the same brush. Just like the Korean store on the corner that sells baked yams on cold days, the crazy homeless guy who's been hanging out on the same street corner, the pizzerias who vie with each other for the same customers for over 20 years (with fresh made pizza that you can watch being made), the OTB full of crazy gamblers, the blind accordion player, shish kebab seller, the security guard and super that have watched me grow up, the police officers are a fixture in my neighborhood. They help maintain the neighborhood because like us, they have a stake in it.

Thanks for your post and hopefully, more people will realize that yes, there are police officers that abuse their authority but there are also cops that are doing their jobs.

[cboy4]

63. Thanks for your interesting and thoughtful reply.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[CRF450]

115. I saw that same video,,,

Though it was the one that cut right to the woman being shoved onto the ground. Right before the officer knocked her down, I heard her say "FUCKING DO IT AGAIN!!". Hearing her say that makes me think she was provoking the officer.

[eshfemme]

116. Yes but most of the people in that thread were just screaming "PIG, PIG, PIG!"

Anyone who even said anything like it looks like both sides of the story weren't presented fully were just called names for even trying to show some sort of skepticism. I mean, this is a place where skepticism with the media is encouraged and now you want to post an obviously edited video and force people to accept a conclusion that is arrived at for you? That thread was just ludicrous. I don't even know where it is, it's buried somewhere in here probably.

But yes, I don't think people realize that when police officers are in the news, it's when they do something bad and that's it. There's never any news of them doing something good because that is by default, what they're here for. So I just wanted to share some of the normal experiences I've had with them and I'm sure if anyone thinks about it, it's possible to have a bad experience but it's also just as possible to have a good experience.

[CRF450]

118. I'v had one little bad experience with a police officer, but it doesn...

Make me paint them all with a broad brush like many here like to do. I got pulled over because of the tint on my car. They were suppose to be 35% which is the legal limit here, but when he metered it, it scored 24% which I though was bullshit, especially for taking place at night at that time. They arent even that dark either, but I had them pulled off and shown proof of it to the local court. So all I basically paid for was the $25 I paid a tinting place to remove it, and print out a reciepe for me to show the court as proof.

Personally I think was trying to meet his quota or whatever. A few other times I'v been pulled over were totally my fault and all I got each time was a verbal warning.

[Kazak]

57. What, he doesn't help breath life into dying men too?

:shrug:

[cboy4]

58. No, he's straight. And he doesn't want to turn gay like

his brother.

lol

[eshfemme]

60. K&R!

:kick:

[Mudoria]

65. The vast majority of Police Officers are great people

who do a job most of us would want no part of. It takes a lot of courage to put yourself in a live or death situation to uphold the law or save the life of another human being. And most of these men and women are not paid a great deal of money to do this. They do it because they love the job and feel they contribute to society by keeping law abiding citizens safe. Are there obnoxious assholes in the police forces across America? Of course there are, but I bet the ratio of assholes to good officers is close to same ratio as assholes to good posters here on DU.

[Dukkha]

67. The real issue is the militarization of the force meant to be peacekeepers

After all “cop” is an anagram meaning citizens on patrol. The usual public fear mongering has people thinking the police should be given broader use of force and the same abuse of civil liberties the government is trying to get a way with, wiretapping, warrantless searches, racial profiling, etc…

[glitch]

128. Strongly agreed. nt

[kayell]

71. Absolutely right. I've had experiences with both ends of the spectrum.

Teargassing ass holes.

The men who searched for, found and saved my daughter from a suicide attempt, stayed with me until she was found, and then checked up on both of us a few days later to make sure we were both ok.

People need to be evaluated as individuals.

[progressoid]

73. Yeah, some people here get a little too caught up in the emotions of the moment.

K&R

[Beausoir]

76. K&R

[psychmommy]

77. i don't hate cops, i fear them.

the dare cops in our small town have a good rapport with the kids in town. they nurture those relationships and i like that. but, i must teach caution to my child. where i grew the chief knew all of us kids and our parents. he wrote a recommendation for me for the job i have now. it means alot to me that he would do that. but, i have been pulled over and removed from car so the cops could search it. the reason i was told because i had too much hanging from rear view mirror. this was a humiliating experience. black folks get shot with a comb/wallet/cellphone in their hand. it is scary out there for people of color.

[GirlieQ]

79. I'll admit that there are good policemen and women.

Protecting and serving our communities is a noble thing. The problem is the 'one bad apple'. For instance, I was in Denver on New Year's a few years ago, and I was cornered by eight or so cops, and they told me that they'd throw me in the drunk tank (I was sober) if I didn't give them the bottle of champagne that I was taking to my hotel room in a paper bag, under my jacket. They ripped it out of my hand so hard that the foil cut my hand.

Then again, one of my good friends' dads is a state patrolman. He's a great guy, and one of the first people I'd call if I was in trouble. I'd call my friend to get his number, though. I don't have much faith in the force as a whole. The patrolman's boss recently rammed a guy driving down a road that's only open during the evening (it's a connector road between two parking lots at the local university). The boss doesn't like how people can drive down it at night, because during the day it's a special perk of policemen that they can lift the barricades. The barricades go up at night when they're not needed, and everyone is allowed to use the shortcut. That the cop wasn't ticketed, the guy he hit wasn't compensated for having his car rammed, and the idiot, powertripping cop is still the head of the university force is what makes me lack faith in the system as a whole.

[happydreams]

80. Thanks for posting this. It is a tragedy. Law and order are very important...

, but must not trample on civil rights. I guess its the choice between chaos and anarchy ("Mad Max" scenario) or a police state ("Blade Runner").

[merh]

81. My brother is a police officer

and I worked in law enforcement for several years.

Thank you for your very thoughtful and important OP. :thumbsup:

edited to add: And thank you for the real neat police car graphic. :)

[cboy4]

133. Yay for our brothers!! ;)

Thanks Merh for your post. :)

[behave]

82. Sorry, but I'm going with what my senses tell me about cops, which is most are sadistic & dishonest.

[hfojvt]

83. the negative gets more attention

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3939236#3943718

[yellowdogintexas]

84. my brother in law and his wife are both on the force here. fine loving people

don't discuss politics ever, he always kept close counsel.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

87. But, do you single out an entire race to hate because of the actions of some?

while i dont think cops should be stereotyped. stereotyping by profession and race are no way similar. for one, one is a choice the other is an immutable trait.

[rucky]

88. Just like any profession, the bad ones screw it up for the good ones. n/t

[mike_c]

104. I'm late to the party, but what do you say about MASS POLICE VIOLENCE...?

Like the fascism we witnessed in association with the RNC? Like the violence we've seen against peaceful protesters on many other occasions?

What do you say about MASS POLICE CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS? Like infiltration of peace organizations and environmental activist organizations? Like provocateur actions? Like racial and class profiling? Like wire taping american citizens without normal court approval?

I could go on and on, but I'm sure you can see where this is going.

[cboy4]

137. Read my OP Mike....you know, the part about civil

disobedience.

Read my OP word for word, and then feel free to ask me questions.

[mike_c]

161. I've read it and noted your caveats, but you're missing the point of my question....

Your OP suggests that most cops are good folks who risk their lives to help their neighbors, but your caveats utterly gloss over the exceptions that prove it's not that simple.

You speak of LE actions against civil disobedience, but a great deal of police violence has been against LEGAL protesters. It's not civil disobedience to protest peacefully against the war, or against the policies of the republican administration. It's not civil disobedience to organize opposition. These are the sorts of activities we've seen jackboot tactics used against. It's clear that the police in those cities have acted en mass to silence law abiding Americans, often violently.

You implicitly dismiss these actions as "tactics." I disagree. I think they reflect the VALUES of many, if not most, in law enforcement. You've suggested that a few bad apples spoil the reputations of everyone in LE, but do you think that urban police departments sort through their memberships and collect all those bad apples together whenever peaceful protesters gather? Or do you agree that it's more realistic to suggest that the AVERAGE cop is just a bit hateful, just a bit angry, just a bit resentful of what he or she views as values antithetical to their own, and that when they gather in a critical mass and arm themselves against normal people, that anger has a tendency to explode?

Someone else in this thread noted from experience that progressive democrats are rare in law enforcement. Why do you think that is? I think one reason is because police departments ATTRACT those who implicitly accept thuggery as a means of solving social problems. Those that LIKE to apply the taser and the baton, sometimes just a little more than you and I, sometimes a LOT more than us.

[tandot]

105. Thanks! My brother-in-law is a sheriffs deputy in Lake County, CA

He doesn't have a bad bone in his body...one of the nicest guys. I agree that there are some bad apples, but to see all of them vilified really pisses me off.

[cboy4]

138. Excellent!

[midnight]

106. It is very sad that our police departments are being used

to provide services to the citizens of this country that do not have a day to day horror tale with them. It is getting difficult to hear parents talk about critical decisions that cost the life of their children via hooding them, tassoring them, shooting them, and or beating them. We need only the best in that uniform because it requires a mind frame that is able to put life first. It is possible to have members on the police force who are loving and respectful, and that is why the opposite is so unacceptable.

[DevonRex]

110. We agree on something. :) There are good and bad in every

profession. Somebody here actually attacked me once just because I was in LE at one time. I couldn't believe it.

Another thing, it's not easy being a progressive democrat in law enforcement. But we need MORE of them. Therefore, we should be careful of painting all cops with the same brush, because the good ones don't need to get blasted from all sides.

[cboy4]

132. We definitely do need more progressive Democrats in LE!

I think your response is just excellent. :)

[DevonRex]

166. Why thank you.

:hug:

[mistertrickster]

111. K&R'd. My local police have been nothing but great in the several

times I've had to call them.

Also, I protest here in town, and the police have actually protected us from right-wing disruptors.

One can't paint with too broad a brush.

[tbyg52]

112. Yes. If some cops are bad, it needs to be fixed, not loaded on all cops.

We need them just as we need the government in general. Piling on cops in general strikes me as kinda like the way the R's break government and then complain it doesn't work.

[1Hippiechick]

117. The only time I hear cops criticized on here is when they have been caught in despicable behavior.

And for that, they SHOULD be called out. There are too many in uniform who have no business BEING in a uniform in the first place.

Disclaimer: good cops excepted from this criticism.

[cboy4]

136. You should get your hearing checked.

Because the disdain for cops is hardly limited to despicable behavior.

[1Hippiechick]

164. Example? The only times I have READ anything on here is when they are slamming to the ground

peaceful protesters. Maybe the ppl complaining are from my generation who have lived and watched what has happened since the 60s protests. I weep for the Kent State Massacre to this day. So, it's hard for me to draw the line between a cop, highway patrolman, soldier, guardsman--whatever--who unnecessarily uses brute force. It's about a person who is supposed to UPHOLD the law rather than take it into his/her own hands, IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkejULqgBgg

[cboy4]

173. Thanks for admitting you can't be impartial.

But you should have mentioned that in your OP.

[cynatnite]

120. DU gets like that and you have to roll with it...

It's just the way it is.

We've got cops in the family plus we've got a pretty strong military background throughout the family tree. Some at DU have come down hard on cops and on the military making broad assumptions based on the actions of a few.

It pisses me off sometimes. I'm a vet. I say my piece and sometimes a discussion ensues, but at some point I just let it go and move on. In the end we're all about doing the best we can for the country we all love. That's what counts.

[madmax]

126. "I know this may not go over very well here at DU"

Huh? What? Are we a bunch of lawless heathen cop haters?
:eyes:

[cboy4]

135. Yea, DU is radically left. Nothing wrong with that, but the bottom

line is most people who are on the far left are not big fans of cops.

That's very well documented, although you're perfectly free to roll your eyes all you want madmax.

[Downtown Hound]

130. I'm sorry that you feel the way you do cboy4

I'll confess, I've been a cop basher in the past. I'm a little older now and a little less hot headed, and I think I see things more clearly than I did in my somewhat reckless 20's. I had some bad experiences with them when I was young, some very scary experiences with a select, very corrupt few of them when I was older, and been to some demonstrations that got ugly as well. But I have to say, that I have also met some cops that have been very cool, very professional, and extremely decent. And I have this theory that there are probably few people wiser than liberal cops. By their very profession cops pretty much see and do it all. The ones that can do that and remain liberal and compassionate throughout all of that have my highest respect.

I have a story that might interest you. After months of peaceful protesting on my part in the months back in '02 and '03 leading up to the Iraq War, one day I decided to stop behaving myself and I joined the breakaway march in San Francisco. In case you're not familiar that's when some of the demonstrators leave the designated protest route and march through the city. Sometimes they do it in the streets, but in this case, we remained on the sidewalk. According to the police, what we were doing was illegal, but we were being peaceful. Noisy, yes, but peaceful. We let bystanders through our crowds, no one was ever harassed, and no form of traffic, auto or pedestrian, was ever blocked.

It wasn't long before the police showed up in full riot gear though. They penned us in to the sidewalk and eventually cut us off from going any further. Along the way they arrested a few people for simply stepping off the sidewalk. One very young girl was arrested when she tried to cross the street in a crosswalk, with the walk sign on. Eventually tensions rose and it wasn't long before the anarchists in their masks started doing their thing. In this case I never saw any windows broken or property damaged, but they started throwing smoke bombs and firecrackers at the police, which in turn caused them to charge through the crowd to arrest the anarchists, knocking people over with hard shoves or batons in the process. At that point there was really nothing else in the world that mattered to me, whether or not we really should have been there, the issue of the war, nothing. All that mattered to me was that I was in a battle, and the cops were the enemy.

I managed to get myself and my girlfriend, who was there with me, out of that particular ruckus without doing anything really stupid or getting myself swatted with a baton. In all of the confusion, the cops had left a serious hole in their line, and a lot of us used the opportunity to break free. We ran down the sidewalk as fast as we could, dozens of us, maybe over a hundred. I'm sure we looked like a rampaging mob, but really, we were just trying to get away. By this point, fortunately, most of the innocent pedestrians had cleared off the streets. Eventually though, we came to a point where the police had us blocked off again.

So there I was, my girlfriend beside me, masked black bloc anarchists to both of my sides, riot cops in front of me not three feet in front of my face. Dozens of us penned in with no place to go but back. Yes, in this case they actually did leave us an escape route, but we didn't want to go. By that time we were so fused with anger and self righteousness and the justness of our cause, we weren't about to back down. The cops sat there and had to listen to countless taunts about how many non-violent drug offenders they'd locked up throughout their careers, about how they were slaves and servants of a fascist state, about how the Bush Administration was planning to employ something called "shock and awe" when they invaded Iraq and about how many innocent people that could kill, and that if they cared about serving and protecting human life at all then they would join the anarchists in "smashing the shit out of the financial district."

It was quite a scene, my first introduction to illegal protest. But at one point, I noticed a police woman that looked like she was about to cry. She was a small middle aged woman of Asian descent, wearing a helmet and body armor but no mask so I could clearly see her face. She had tears in her eyes, and sometimes even winced uncomfortably at all the shouting being directed at her, and she was obviously very scared.

In that one moment, I saw the human side of my so-called enemy. On our side we saw the police as masked stormtroopers, randomly and indiscriminately beating people that were there to take a stand for peace and justice. But on their side they saw a crowd of unruly people, some of them wearing masks and looking like terrorists, that were hell bent on causing mayhem. It was obvious to me that she didn't want to be there. I didn't know her or her political beliefs, but for all I knew she hated what we as a nation were about to do to Iraq just as much as all of us did. I suddenly didn't feel so self-righteous.

Eventually a police officer got on a loud horn and said that he was declaring this an illegal assembly, and that if we didn't leave immediately, we would be arrested. Some of the crowd started to leave. I looked at my girlfriend and told her that I was staying. I'm still not really sure why I did. I think, at the end of the day, I just wanted to be arrested. I wanted to earn my badge as a demonstrator, and just see what it was really like.

My girlfriend looked at me and said understandingly, "Well honey, if that's your choice." I gave her a brief kiss and told her I would see her later. She walked off, I didn't. Eventually the flexicuffs came on and I was taken to jail. I didn't resist at all. I placed my hands on my head when I was told, let them put the cuffs on me, and dutifully let myself be led away. And I was never beaten, disrespected, or mistreated in any way. All the cops from that point on were very professional. Jail wasn't a whole lot of fun, but then again, it's jail. After about ten hours in a cell with twenty other men, having to smell their shit and some of their unwashed bodies, they let me go. I was charged with illegal assembly, disobeying a peace officer, and failure to disperse. Two weeks later the charges were dropped.

That whole experience was quite a lesson to me. It's so easy to forget that there are people behind those masks, and it's so easy to forget that police officers are people too. Yes, there were moments when I think the cops were out of line, and I think they often do get out of line when it comes to civil disobedience. There are legitimate issues to face when it comes to police in this country, but it's important to remember that they have a job to do. When those of us who choose to engage in civil disobedience do so, we must not forget that we are breaking the law. That our cause may be just and right doesn't change this fact. If anybody chooses to break the law as an act of protest, they must also be prepared to face the consequences. We shouldn't expect the police to give us free reign when we voluntarily commit crimes, but we do have a right to expect reasonable force to be applied and to not be mistreated while in custody.

So lot's of love and respect to your brother, to you, and all of the good cops out there. Believe me, those of us that do engage in civil disobedience hope and pray that we are arrested by the good ones, and if they happen to share our ideals and maybe give us a few words of encouragement while they're hauling us away in cuffs, so much the cooler. Life is complicated, it doesn't work in terms of black and white, only shades of gray, and for this reason alone I know I could never be a cop and have lots of respect for people that do. Thanks for your post, and know that there are those of us out there that not only face the police in the streets but also know that they are human beings too.

[cboy4]

134. Thanks Downtown, and I have a lot of respect for those

who are willing to go to jail to fight for a worthy cause .. especially civil/human rights.

[punkin87]

131. What about the ones not helping the people they're suppose to help?

[Chovexani]

139. cboy, I love you, but no.

I'm a black woman who lives less than two miles from where Abner Louima was arrested, and the precinct where he was raped and tortured? Is my fucking precinct.

Your post really, really smacks of white privilege and I love you but I'm going to have to call you on it. If I read one more post by someone defending cops by comparing distrust of cops to racial bigotry I may just have to come up with a bingo card.

Yes, some of the "down with pigs" mentality on DU comes from kids who huffed a little too much paint and blindly yell about The Man every time they so much as get a hangnail, but please don't pretend it comes from nowhere. You do not get to make distrust of cops into an ism. Period. Because these attitudes don't exist in a vacuum, they don't exist in some candy land where people never chose to put on uniforms and abuse the authority afforded to them by those uniforms. They don't get formed in a world where cops weren't de facto enforcers of fascism as dictated by the courts and the state and every bucktooth smalltown mayor with a klan hood in the closet. Or that those friendly helpful police didn't completely ignore violent crime as long as it was just happening in black or Latino neighborhoods (see: 911 is a Joke). Or the way women and minorities were locked out of forces across the country for years and years. I remember Louima and King and have been stopped many a time for walking in the "wrong" neighborhood, and I was raised by people who remember fire hoses and dogs. Please look up racial profiling and driving while black and hell the "blue wall of silence" for more modern examples of why a lot of people have very good reasons to distrust cops.

Your brother may be nice and sweet as can be but if he pulls me over wearing a uniform you can best believe I will have my cell phone and a camera handy. That's not prejudice, that's playing the law of averages and using my goddamn head. No, not every cop is evil, but I am not rolling the dice to see if this is the one that won't kick my ass or rape me or shoot my cousin 52 times before he gets married.

Edited to add: yes, there are wonderful, amazingly good cops. But I wish the kneejerk cop defenders would just. Listen. People have very, very valid reasons to distrust cops.

[cboy4]

143. Chovexani, I believe people of color have a valid reason to

distrust cops.

No question about it and it hurts my heart to hear stories like yours about being afraid of getting pulled over. It's just so sad.

But I don't understand this uproar about my analogy using race.

If it's offensive, I apologize.

I was only trying to articulate, it's wrong to lump bad members of any group together.

I don't know how else to say it, I guess, without offending some.

And I'm far from a 'kneejerk cop defender.'

I expressed some of my criticisms in my OP. I just find the reaction around here at times disproportionate to the good they do.

People can distrust cops.

And I can defend them .. because I believe the majority are good.

[PeaceNikki]

160. Thank you for your perspective, Chovexani.

I've tried to discuss the reality of racial disparity with regards to police stops, searches, seizures, arrests and sentencing here on DU and I've been called a "bigot" for doing so. I agree with you 100% that there is a contingency of people who have the "down with pigs" mentality that you mention, but I am also very aware that there are a good number of people whose opinions have been molded by real life experiences. I am also 100% aware of my "white privilege" in this regard and 100% aware that interactions with the police are generally VERY different for minorities than they are for me. The data is there and the problems are real. Again, as I said upthread, my state and my city are among the worst in the nation in this regard. I'm ashamed of this but burying my head in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist just because it doesn't affect me directly does nothing to solve the problem. In fact, it makes it worse.

[Indi Guy]

141. It's Moronic to Judge Anyone by Their Profession...

...this understood, there are certain professions that deserve more scrutiny than others.

When individuals have power over many people, because of their position, they are deserving of the microscope.

A good cop is like a good doctor. He/She folows the rules & at least does no harm, while making an honest to do the most good.

A bad doctor (like a bad cop) does far more damage to the profession than anyone else can.

Americans are, for the most part, tolerent of mistakes ...but those who have control over the lives of others must live up to a higher standard.

[mainegreen]

159. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

:toast:

[codjh9]

165. Absolutely. Good and bad cops as with any other profession. Most are good, I think.