Why are we embracing racially coded language on DU?

[noamnety]

We all seemed to understand that this was racially coded:



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3348843&mesg_id=3348843

When we start using the same language regarding Levi, what is the underlying message? What are we trying to say about the sort of person he is/they are, and why do we illustrate that point by specifically using AAVE?

[prayin4rain]

1. PLEASE tell me that is not an actual screen shot! PLEASE!! n/t

[Catch22Dem]

7. You bet it is!

It's the real deal

[prayin4rain]

13. That is so sick.... she is his WIFE for one thing...

second of all... how the hell can a NEWS organization use that kind of terminology?????????? Just when I think I cannot be shocked anymore.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. Exactly. Repigs are so F stupid, they use words whose meanings they don't know....

Look at GW Bush, the king of malapropisms. The man couldn't pass a vocabulary test if his very life depended on it.

[Jack Rabbit]

68. No news organization used it as far as I know

The GOP propaganda station did.

[prayin4rain]

72. true... but still... that is all the news a lot of the people i know get

i wish there was a way to hold them accountable and not let them present themselves as a news organization if they don't have to abide by even the basic principles of one.

[notadmblnd]

2. could you give us an example of the same coded language used against poor little Levi?

[Union Thug]

4. Here's one: F*ing Redneck... by his own admission.

Oh, and here's another: crank-addled white trash.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

8. See, problem is, it fits Levi. It never fits Obama.

That's the difference between Repigs and Democrats. If you're going to insult someone, at least let it be merited and true. Repigs just pull things out of their anus and invent the rest.

[noamnety]

14. Why is using AAVE an insult?

That's what I'm getting at.

Why does using AAVE fit Levi? What are we saying about the people who use it?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

29. What's AAVE? I'm sorry but I'm totally confused now. nt

[noamnety]

43. African Amerian Vernacular English

I'm trying to figure out the subtext in the language we use when describing Levi.

[petronius]

44. African-American Vernacular English (nt)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

49. It isn't if you use it against whites as well. nt

[noamnety]

51. Is the same true for the N word?

We can use that to describe white people and it's not racist?

Or when we use it to describe white people, are we really saying "you aren't any better than a (black) n******"?

I'm thinking the second is the real message. Just like calling a straight man a f*****. It insults the straight man by implying he's like one of Those people - it assumes we all understand Those people are filth, no?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

109. That describes a color. The color, "negro." Now, how on earth could you call a white person....

"black?" However, getting knocked up is pretty much universal. And I believe that if whites were called the "N" word, and called one another the "N" word, the "N" word would take on a completely empty meaning.

[notadmblnd]

16. Who are we to argue with his obviously accurate discription of himself?

personally, I'd go a step further calling them overt racists that do a poor job of hiding their white supremacist values.

[stillcool]

67. didn't I read something..

about the little town of Wasilla having like 43 meth labs? Of course that's no reason to attack the kid. I think the name-calling is reactionary, and takes away from the facts that we are trying to discover about who Sarah Palin is.

[noamnety]

11. I don't care one way or another about "poor little Levi"

this is about the use of "baby daddy" to imply that he's "in the same class of people" as black folks who talk like that. I'm trying to figure out what we are saying about black people who use AAVE, when we start slinging that around as an insult.

[notadmblnd]

33. but "we" didn't use that term, Faux Newz did.

and when it was brought to our attention, we denounced it? So why are you chastising us for it? I hadn't read the crack addled comment but I really doubt they use crack. Wouldn't be surprised if they're not meth heads though.

What we do actually know though; is that they're a bunch of unsupervised teens that engage in quite a bit of underage drinking and premarital sex who have a tendency to enjoy killing living things

[noamnety]

53. "we" HAVE been using that term.

Fox used it about the Obama family, which was offensive. Now on DU, people are using it to describe the younger Palin relationship.

I fully agree with this: "that they're a bunch of unsupervised teens that engage in quite a bit of underage drinking and premarital sex who have a tendency to enjoy killing living things" - and I think it underscores much hypocrisy in the Palin-fundie world view of abstinence education as a means to maintaining that all important virginity til marriage.

I am questioning the need of some people on DU to sum up that behavioral pattern (underage drinking and premarital sex) by resorting to speech patterns of the black community. What's the message in that?

[sandnsea]

66. They aren't married, he is a baby daddy

That was the objection. They used the term to disparage Michelle as if she's just another unwed pregnant teen. It's true about Bristol and Levi. The term is accurate. You prefer they get away with picturing these two as a cute little prom couple who made a little mistake?

[noamnety]

69. I think you are misunderstanding my point.

It's not a statement about whether he is too young to be a father, or whether they are married.

I am specifically asking why we (some people) on DU are embracing racially coded language to describe that situation.

[psychmommy]

92. that's what i am saying.

a baby's momma is an unmarried woman with a child. i think it has gone from black slang to pop culture at this point. once it becomes pop culture-it is passe and a new term pops up. but, this is my culture and i don't appreciate the negative tone towards all things black. for example, the horror of mccain's indian child being called black. the bad thing about the story was the claim that her mom was a prostitute impregnated by jmc and they adopted. i have no idea what aave is but, i consider myself bi-lingual. i don't look down on our slang and i make sure my daughter speaks standard english that is taught in class and she may speak slang also. she is taught where and when it is appropriate to speak either way. use of slang or aave isn't necessarily a class thing.

[rebel with a cause]

96. Look, I used that term a few days ago because it applied.

He is her baby's daddy and they are not married. He is not her husband and only recently became her fiancee. He is her boyfriend and that is how I could have referred to him, but he is also her baby's daddy. That is not an insult, it only refers to the fact that they are not married but have a shared child. It was an insult when used for Michelle because she is Barack's wife and has been in a long term marriage and is more than just his baby's mama, this implicates that there is no solid relationship/connection between the parents.

Oh, "I" am an old white woman and used that decription long before it became a AAVE, as you call it. In fact it was used by my parents when I was a child. Example: You know that John is that baby's daddy. He won't admit it but I believe Jane when she says he is.

For me it is saying who the person is. That is all it is. No more and no less. No insult intended toward the Black community . :shrug:

[noamnety]

100. I'm not talking about the use of the phrase "baby's daddy"

"He is her baby's daddy" <-- That's not what I'm commenting on, and if all your posts are just as you described them here, you aren't in the group of people I have an issue with.

It's specifically the dropping of the final S on the possessive by people who don't normally talk that way to mimic/mock the black vernacular that I'm asking about. I want to know why they are going out of their way to use culturally black language to describe white people as having low class/low morals.

[Junkdrawer]

3. Yes. If the Right Wing uses racism, we should ignore it and hope it goes away...

That is, after all, the best way to deal with racism. Right? :shrug:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. Nope. NEVER EVER ignore an insult. Kerry did that and it tore me apart

NEVER AGAIN.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

37. I was thinking about Kerry too with my last two posts. He played it with class, and we know what

happened to him. If he went on the attack we never would have had 4 more miserable, dangerous years.

I see Obama taking the same tack as Kerry now and it is disturbing. After Palin's and McSames convention speeches, he should have immediately plastered the airwaves with an ad of those speeches, and in writing, show how both lied their asses off. So simple to put together, but where the hell is it?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

41. Do you know that I CRIED during the time Kerry was not responding to the swiftboater lies?

I think I cried out of anger. I was seething with anger at what they were doing, and felt helpless that they kept doing it and he didn't say a word.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

57. I was very emotional over it too and it was maddening when I couldn't do a single

thing. It was devastating and I pray that Obama will not allow the same thing to happen.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

113. :( Maybe this time we won't let that happen at all. nt

[TahitiNut]

17. Didn't you know the best way for Democrats to win in November is to attack and demean other DUers?

Mount up! Vigilantes ho!! Our "betters" will lead us!

:eyes:

(And don't EVER suggest that "pit bulls" lick their own crotches!)

[noamnety]

19. Maybe you didn't mean to reply to my thread.

or perhaps you didn't understand my post.

Does it look to you like I am ignoring racism? Or speaking out against it?

I was all in favor of calling out FOX for using racially coded language, and I don't think we should ignore it when the left does it either.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

5. I've used baby daddy as a way of throwing it in the faces of the Repukes that did that to

Michelle. I won't stop either.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

12. I use the term babymama about Sarah Palin and her daughter, BOTH...

... when Repigs cease using the word babymama, I won't use it on them.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

22. The time for playing "nice" is over. We will not survive another 4 years with the Repukes.

I am dead serious about that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

28. ABSOLUTELY! Totally agree! nt

[noamnety]

47. Does that mean we need to embrace racism?

Is there a way to not play nice - without using racially coded language?

Or is racism a valid tool for both political parties to use?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

58. It isn't racially coded when you start to neutralize it by turning it towards those who use

it as racial coding.

BTW...my concern is the new racial coding "community activism" and don't think that the Repukes are going to use that full force.

[noamnety]

60. So should we try using the N word more

to neutralize it?

Do you think civil rights advocates should use the n word a lot when talking about white people?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

63. I think you are taking this way too far right now. nt

[Lorien]

64. That's an incredible leap

I don't see how using a term that has it's roots in the African American community is "racist". Is using the word "Phat" somehow racist? The "N" word is a derogatory term for blacks used (originally) by whites. "Baby mama" or "Baby daddy" originated in the black community as a descriptive term used for the unwed parent of a child (and being the child of unwed parents myself, I don't find it offensive). I don't believe that it was intended as a derogatory term, merely something descriptive of the relationship.

[Lorien]

62. Exactly n/t.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

114. EXACTLY! You explain it much better than I do. :)

I did that with a Republican I know. He WAS fond of using the term, "welfare queen" for black women until his sister got preggers and I found out she went to get food stamps. First he denied it, then I asked him if he'd called her a welfare queen to her face yet. His face froze and he hasn't spoken to me since.

[malaise]

52. I agree 100%

Fugg nice.

[Lorien]

61. Amen. If Dems want to be seen as strong and tough, we'll play a good defense

AND offense. "Playing nice" will lose us an election against these thugs.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

76. After Killer Palin's speech and McCrash's I had expected some hard hitting back by Obama and Biden

and I have yet to see that on MSM. They need ads to show what liars McCrash and Killer Palin are. I feel like banging my head against a wall. We Cannot Have Another 2004!!!! My heart can't take it. Not for me, but for my kids and their lives/futures.

[Lorien]

78. I know. I was talking with some friends about that yesterday

everyone was very frustrated that Obama and Biden did not hit back HARD the moment that BS came out of their mouths. The longer they wait, the tougher the damage will be to undo. Right now in the battleground state of Florida McCain is filling the airwaves with anti-Obama lies about "tax and spend" liberals who will tax the middle class to death. No response so far with the TRUTH; that McCain favors the wealthy with tax breaks while Obama favors the middle and working classes. I'm sick of having our party look like a bunch of victims who just take it and take it until the bullies win-then they throw a few compliments at the thugs to top it all off! Like you, I'm worried that once again we'll be "keeping our powder dry" perpetually, with the same results that have come before.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

80. Luckily, I seem to spared the McCrash ads right now. I'm in NY and I'm sure they will spend very

little effort here. I don't think my stomach could take those ads.

I don't understand it. When Obama was running against Clinton he took Immediate Action and now, nada.

I am one of those tinfoilers that on some level believes that this is all a "game". That the two parties are in cahoots and are opposames and that the powers that be, who have controlled our government for years, still will control it, no matter.

On another level, I know in order to remain sane right now, I must have the hope that I'm dead wrong and this is scaring the hell out of me.

[fortyfeetunder]

77. Speaking not not playing nice - reminds me of Dixie Chicks

I'm not ready to make nice - I love this song :loveya:

"I'm not ready to make nice
I am not willing to back down
I'm still mad as hell and I don't have time
To go round and round and round"

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

82. Yes! Yes! Yes!!!!

[noamnety]

85. Do you think there's a difference between

"nice" and "not racist"?

It's curious to me that people here are interpreting "don't use racist language" as a synonym for "let's be nice to them." I think there's a difference between attacking people/policies without mercy, and attacking people/policies without bigotry.

Do we need to use sexism/racism to win?

[fortyfeetunder]

98. How about handing racists the truth, and be nice about it?

Like dealing with racists, just give them the facts. You can be nice about it, just let them know in your perception, what they said/did has racist undertones. Know it's not simple but it does take courage to be truthful and stand by your convictions!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. I disagree.

When you use the same word they've been using on you, back on them, you've disabled and disarmed them from using the word.

[fasttense]

9. Poor, little girl. Palin is so abused and so are all her and her daughter's

illicit sex partners. This is just so awful. Just because the right wing smeared a loyal loving mother then you shouldn't smear an adulterous and her horny daughter. Stop picking on the Princess. :sarcasm:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

15. What's the latest with Sarah Palin's adulterous relationship? Anyone know? nt

[orleans]

24. saw a thread yesterday, citing an article where the ex business

partner is quickly trying to seal his divorce records....hummm....i wonder why?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

27. Oh I'm sure he's getting them sealed because of statements made by his ex-wife about Palin...

... I would give a lot of $$ to see those records!

[noamnety]

87. Could be two reasons.

1. There is incriminating information in it about an affair with Palin
2. He knows they are about to dig through his divorce records for the world to look at, and while it has nothing to do with Palin, he doesn't want his private relationship with his wife to be plastered all over the media.

I have no clue which is true. I know that my own divorce was pretty mild-mannered - apathetic, even, as the ex never lawyered up or contested anything, so a generic irreconcilable differences was all that was needed. But if someone wanted to push it all over the media, I would still consider it my own business and would possibly move to make it private. I don't know - apathy reigns pretty high still, I might not bother. But if there was anything (Palin related or not) that I thought was personal or that I thought would be damaging to my kid, well, if I had a choice between sealing the records or having it all over the Enquirer, I would pick the first option. I imagine most people would do the same.

If either of the partners in his marriage were unfaithful - but Palin had nothing to do with it - would you expect him to want the records sealed?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

103. Some are saying Scott Richter and some are saying Brad Hanson. I say, why not both? lol!

(I'm so bad!)

[noamnety]

23. This doesn't appear to be related to my OP. nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

73. You, madam,are a hypocrite of the first order.

I hope you never again have the gall to object to personal attacks on the family members of politicians you support.

Attempting to conflate objections to attacks on Palin's children and family with defending her herself is contemptible.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

104. Although you haven't addressed this to me, I can say for myself, I am very used to personal attacks

on Democrats, Which Have Gone On For Years. Even McCrash called Chelsea Clinton, when a young girl, ugly. Screw him and Palin, the liar.

I have developed a very thick skin. Maybe Repukes are going to have to learn to become thick skinned too.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

108. Republicans should have to. Their children shouldn't.

One can use bad behaviour by right-wingers to justify retaliation towards them themselves.

One cannot use it to justify bad behaviour towards anyone else.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

112. No. Those children are used as Props to promote an Image of Palin, and she has made those kids

fair game. I'm usually never cruel, but My Country is at stake and My Children's Futures are at stake. I don't give a shit about hers.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

117. Are Obama's children fair game?

And N.B. that the question I'm asking is not "do right-wingers attack Obama's children", although the answer to that one appears to be "no" too.

The question I'm asking is "do you think it's wrong for right-wingers to attack Obama's children"?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

118. If they find something to say, of course Obama's children will their fair game. Is it right?

Of course not, but we don't always do things that are right. We did the right things in 2004 and what did it give us? 4 more years of a sociopath administration.

McCain already thought a young girl was fair game when he called Chelsea Clinton ugly.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

119. Apparently not, given his subsequent grovelling apology.

He clearly realised that he had done something wrong - which is not to say that he hadn't, of course.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

120. lol! Exactly. :)

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. I'm a nearly-old fart who is not up on the slang -

I thought that "baby mama" was a reference to children having children - a problem in, but not confined to, the black community. When Faux used it against Michelle it was an unwarranted racist attack because she is no underage unwed mother and that was the correlation they were drawing.

With Palin's daughter and her boyfriend it is not unwarrented because they ARE kids having a kid.

Am I wrong? Did I completely misunderstand what was meant by "baby mama" and "baby daddy"?

ON EDIT:
And what is "AAVE"?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

31. Babymama is slang which began among black people and which refers to....

... an unmarried woman who bears some man's child.

[noamnety]

35. I think you missed the subtext.

It's not just about a parent being young. It's specifically mimicking speech patterns in the black community (African American Vernacular English) to underscore the message that this is how those people behave.

Now we have it used to describe Levi by a bunch of people who I guarantee don't themselves normally speak that way, just as FOX doesn't speak that way. The message is that Levi is no better than those people - so there's the message of what kind of people Palin's daughter & boyfriend are, and that point is being made by tying them to (thereby reinforcing) an ugly stereotype of black people.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

45. I know what you're saying.... but (and forgive me) you're wrong.....

By using the word against whites, you are taking it out of the black context. The minute you decide to not use it against whites, it remains a black word, to be used stereotypically against blacks. Use it against whites and see how quickly it's no longer a black word.

[noamnety]

54. That doesn't happen in the real world.

n****** - still a racial slur.
c*** - still a sexist slur.
f***** - still a homophobix slur.
welfare queen - still has racial overtones.

etc.

There are a couple of points about reclaiming slurs.

First, it's never the place of the dominant class to try to reclaim a slur against an oppressed class.
Second, reclaiming a slur is associated with trying to flip the meaning into something to be proud of, not expanding the insult.

"see how quickly it's no longer a black word" <-- wrong headed, sorry. The subtext is undeniably racist, and we all know that - hence the justifiable anger when Fox resorted to it.

[kayell]

75. But, if the term is originally AAVE, why would it need reclaiming?

Reclaiming is where a minority group works to change the meaning of a slur term applied to them by oppressors - for instance the reclaiming of "queer". From what you've said, this didn't start out as a white slur against blacks, but as slang within the black community (or some portions).

Clearly, Fox used the term inappropriately and with racist intent, but if AA's use it to refer to unwed parents, why is anyone of any color using it appropriately to refer to unwed parents racist? Plenty of black slang as entered the standard American language over the past several hundred years. I'm not personally fond of this one, but how is adding this slang, along with all the other slang, racist?

Added: actually, it would seem that if any group is being smeared by correct (as in original meaning) usage of "baby mama" or "baby daddy" it would be unwed parents.

[noamnety]

83. Your question is at the heart of what I'm asking, actually.

"if AA's use it to refer to unwed parents, why is anyone of any color using it appropriately to refer to unwed parents racist? "

That's very much related to what I'm asking, in a way. The dropping of the apostrophe S in a possessive is a feature of AAVE.

Why are we specifically using speech patterns of the black community to convey the idea of "trash with loose morals"? What is the connection there? Why do people think that by using speech patterns found within that culture, they can convey that idea better?

[kayell]

93. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how it's being used by blacks

therefore it is simply slang passing into the overall American language. If anything, I object to the overall assumption that all unwed parents are "trash with loose morals".

The usage by Fox is racist because it is being used counter to accepted AAVE usage and refers* back to a time (slavery) when blacks were not allowed to legally wed at all. It's being used by Fox to imply that black marriages (specifically Obamas, but the slur is intended for all) are not legitimate or worthy of recognition.

*IMO this may be subtext and not completely recognized by Fox writers, but then again....The writers may totally recognize it and know the subconscious impression it will have on their viewers.

I still don't see how a DUer using the term to refer to Levi or Bristol is racist. Objectionable possibly, making assumptions about them based on Sarah Palins history, but not racist IMO.

(note that you seem to be making the assumption that DUers using the term are not black)

Added: It seems to me that you are transferring your (righteous) outrage at the use by Fox onto DUers who are using the term with completely different intent, and with it's original meaning. It might be a lot more appropriate and effective for you to spend the time venting your anger at Fox, who deserve it.

I'm not saying that there isn't sometimes racist language here but this just doesn't seem to be a case.

[noamnety]

106. We agree on this:

"I object to the overall assumption that all unwed parents are "trash with loose morals"

I tried to use air quotes there to show it was someone else's view (in case that wasn't clear). That's a whole other issue I also object to, I just didn't make it the point of my OP. I also think the Fox writers are shooting for "low class black folk" not legalities of marriages among slaves. All the same, I think on some level we agree that it was a racist reference by Fox writers.

I'm not understanding that you agree it has racist overtones ... except not when DUers deliberately use AAVE to try to convey the idea of low class people by describing them in culturally black ways.

(And yes, I am assuming most of the people here who are gleefully using the nonstandard English "baby daddy" are white, and/or do not normally talk that way unless they are making a point of it. And it's that point that I'm trying to unwrap. Do you think I'm wrong in that assumption?)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

20. Plus I have a queston for you. Should we LIMIT that word to using it only with black people??

Why? Why can't we use it on WHITES?

[noamnety]

21. Huh?

Did you somehow read my post as an endorsement of Fox's use of the phrase?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. NONO! My question was.....

You're saying that WE shouldn't use the word babymama against Palin and/or her daughter, right?

I'm asking, why not? Should we leave the word to be used ONLY against black people? Why shouldn't we use it against whites that fit the bill perfectly, such as Palin and her daughter? Let's make it a white word.

[noamnety]

39. Again, you seem to be arguing your own point, not mine

or anything related to mine.

Here I am saying "This should not be used against black people - or by white people to reinforce stereotypes about black people."

and you are bizarrely saying "so you want it to be used against black people!"

[Sarah Ibarruri]

48. Okay, here's your own comment, quoted:

"When we start using the same language regarding Levi, what is the underlying message?"

Let me respond to that again.

When we use it against LEVI we are saying that the word is now being used against WHITES. Once you use the word against WHITES it is no longer a black word to be used against black people as an insult.

[noamnety]

56. You seem to be deliberately misconstruing nmy words.

Because of the racial stereotypes this phrasing reinforces, it should not be used about black or white people.

You seem to think we can use AAVE to sum up how white people are acting, without it being inherently racist. I think you are wrong.

If you need to use black speech patterns to send a message about a class of white people, you should reevaluate why that is.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

111. Oy vey. To remove a pejorative meaning, you MUST use that word for groups outside

the group within which it is used. If you continue to isolate it to the group where it is used, it will continue to be associated with that group.

[Caliman73]

89. Let me clarify too

You said:

"When we use it against LEVI we are saying that the word is now being used against WHITES. Once you use the word against WHITES it is no longer a black word to be used against black people as an insult."

The OP is saying that the phrase is historically used by some Black people to describe a woman who is the mother of a man's child who is no longer with that man. It can be a pejorative or not in that context. It has been a specifically Black phrase which is now being co-opted by white people. The difference is that it is being applied by whites as a slur meaning "low class" and that implication is carried by the fact that it is historically a Black pejorative phrase. White people CANNOT take the power out of that phrase just by using it against other whites.

Another example of the concept. I am Mexican-American. I watch George Lopez's comedy. When he makes fun of Chicanos and Mexicans, he is relating my culture back to me an a humorous way. If a white person were to repeat that comedy to me, I would take offense because that white person has no idea what it is to be Mexican-American and deal with the prejudice I have dealt with just because of my skin color or surname. Sorry, I agree with the OP.

There are many non racially charged phrases we can use to describe the Bristol/Levi situation.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

110. You are obviously removed from young people, for whom it is becoming a frequent term

And I believe it's a term that will soon lose its association with blacks, pretty much as saying hello with the term, "Brother" has and many more black terms. It is my belief that our American black citizens have come up with more music, more terms, and more culture that we whites have copied than vice versa.

[orleans]

26. (what is "aave?") n/t

[noamnety]

40. AAVE = African American Vernacular English (nt)

[slackmaster]

30. Some of us are hypocrites, and like most hypocrites are blind to our own hypocrisy

:hi:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. Huh? Okay, I know there must be some hidden significance in this.. nt

[slackmaster]

42. My post means exactly what it says

No mystery at all.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

46. I was afraid of that. Please read the other posts. nt

[slackmaster]

50. I don't give a flying fuck about the other posts

I gave MY response to the OP.

[mass independent]

32. some people

are so easily offended.

Were you really shocked when Fox aired the Baby Mama line? Is the very phrase that shocking or insulting? Frankly when Fox pulled that out in made them look small. When I see anyone here post a similar slag about this kid without anyone really knowing him the effect is the same.

BUT

Only when the Right and the Left abandon their respective faux outrage modes will we even begin to move forward and fix the damage that has been done to our great country over the last administration.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

38. Exactly. This is hardly the time for faux outrage. nt

[prayin4rain]

59. I think that people are can still feel outrage after so many years

of listening to and being subjected to Fox new's shenanigans is a good thing. Becoming desensitized and immune to this kind of garbage is not a good thing. They would like it if this kind of slandering became so commonplace that people didn't even blink an eye. That is fine if you are not outraged but I think it is ridiculous for you to think you know that other people's outrage is not genuine. I also find it strange that you think a poster on a website using derogatory and racist language has the same effect as a news organization that uses that language.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asdjrocky]

65. Sorry, I totally disagree.

I'm sick and tired of being the nice party and watching some other dim bulb get elected. These people are trailer trash with a little money and that is all they are. By admission by at least one of them they are f---ing rednecks.

It's getting to the point where someone can't sneeze around here without someone posting that by doing that we're being mean to boogers.

Give me a break.

[noamnety]

70. that doesn't relate to my question, though.

My question was why are we using racially-coded language in our attacks.

I don't see that addressed in your response. You seem to be responding to another question: "should we be nice to republican hypocrites who are unqualified to serve as VP?" That's a valid question, but not the one I'm asking here.

[asdjrocky]

71. You're asking me to be careful about what I say, er write, about someone.

I don't worry about that. There is no "nice" in politics. If you don't think I addressed your question, for that I'm sorry.

These people are trailer trash. Is a that racially coded statement?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

79. No

it's just classist, arrogant and represents the kind of sneering condescension that causes liberals to lose elections.

[tannybogus]

74. I just can't keep up!

Every time I turn around there is some word or phrase I am not supposed to use about somebody.

I really do try not to use degrading statements when I post. However, the list seems to be growing by a mile.

We don't need spellcheck. We need degradecheck. :sarcasm:

[ColbertWatcher]

81. Actually, the text in the picture is not coded at all ...

... it is outright racist.

Now, if you can post a picture of text, or a link to racist comments about that kid, we can compare them.

[loyalsister]

84. meanings......

I am glad that you raised this. This is an important issue to hash out.

You are absolutely correct. To suggest that Levi's behavior even has a negative label among "those" people, creates a perception that he has sunk lower than what he could possibly achieve in his own race.

It is similar to use of the term "white trash" which suggests that "trash" in reference to people is automatically appropriate when applied to people of color, but must be designated when referencing white people.

It's not AAVE necessarily, but it is the same subtle language manipulation and it is also offensive and racist. I would argue that "redneck" has been substituted frequently enough to have become a synonym.

[noamnety]

86. Thank you for getting that!

There are days when I feel like a basic understanding of how racism and sexism are reinforced in our culture is completely missing on DU.

[loyalsister]

95. I understand completely

But, I do recognize that it is so hard to step out of one's own experience that sometimes people don't realize how entrenched they are and how easy it is to disregard the experiences others may have without malice.

Language is where we meet each other. If we won't examine it and give some thought to the experience of the "other" we passively participate in perpetuating negative stereotypes, etc.

[Montauk6]

88. Let's start from the beginning because your point's not making sense

There's no double-standard here.

What Fox did was use a slang term (btw, I'm not feelin' that "AAVE" jazz) INAPPROPRIATELY to put a very sophisticated woman who goes against media-generated stereotype (that has, unfortunately, TOO MANY real life examples) in the same bag. They basically called Michelle Obama ghetto. Period point blank.

Using "baby daddy" on Levi is far from hypocrisy, it's stone cold, very clever IRONY. It shows that the holier-than-thou bible-thumpers looking down their snouts at those (SNORT AHEM) gutter folk ain't much better themselves.

I mean, my goodness, should we ask Michael Moore to apologize for possibly racial insensitivity because he referred to big corporations receiving government handouts as "welfare queens" or even "welfare recipients" (which I'm sure could be CONSTRUED as "coded language"). Or maybe he should be picketed for that brilliant bit he ran with Tariq "K-Flex" Nasheed who posed as a pimp going to Washington to get those "ho's" in line? I mean, COME ON!!!

[noamnety]

90. "I'm not feelin' that "AAVE" jazz"

If you don't get that the Fox bit was racially coded, or why calling her "ghetto" is racially coded, then I think you and I are too far apart to even have a conversation about this, to be honest.

[Montauk6]

94. You're right, we are too far apart to have a conversation about this

as you are clearly on the hit-and-run as opposed to dealing with the issues (please don't even bother to re-read what I wrote which contradicts COMPLETELY what you just said). Good day, we're done here.

[Vanje]

91. What are you talking about?

Looks to me like Levi is a little shit.

Am I being fecalophobic?

[crimsonblue]

97. you obviously don't understand baby 'mommy' and 'daddy'

it is used in reference to people that are parents in biology only.

[rebel with a cause]

99. erased because I decided I was wrong to say what I said.

[noamnety]

101. Did you understand it as racist when Fox used it? nt

[wickerwoman]

115. It's racist on Fox because it's completely inaccurate

As far as I know, "baby daddy" originated as a way for women to refer to the father of a child who is no longer around or who isn't married to the mother. It's used by numerous ethnic groups in New York including whites. If anything, I would say that it is more a class and regional marker than an ethnic one.

Since Michelle Obama is married and her husband is still around the only reason that Fox is using "baby mamma" is because they are black. So yeah, it's racist. Like you said, a way to drag them down to the level of "those people".

In the case of Levi Johnston, he actually isn't married to Bristol Palin. If they lived in Queens, he would be called a "baby daddy". The only reason it's funny is because they're rich and priviledged. So maybe there's an argument that it's classist but I think you're really, really stretching to make it racist.

[Stinky The Clown]

102. That's an awfully broad brushed statement.

[bemildred]

105. I have not embraced a damn thing.

Why are you posturing like a buffoon?

[BlooInBloo]

107. Clinton supporters were happy with it, back during silly season.

[bananas]

116. "Baby Mama" is a movie starring Tina Fey, AAVE is a summer camp

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0871426/
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTYwNTc1Nzk1N15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNjE4OTI2MQ@@._V1._SX270_SY400_.jpg

"All About Visiting Earth"
www.aave.com