I flew over 250 combat missions and I was never shot down.

[DemoTex]

I was smart. I avoided SAMs. I flew in zones just as dangerous as Route Pack-6 (Hanoi). I flew Steel Tiger and Barrel Roll in Laos and Route Pack-1 in southern N. Viet Nam. Tough fucking stuff!

I was unarmed and scared shit-less. But I was never a POW. Know what I mean, Vern?



I'm Mac T., and I approve this message.

[MercutioATC]

1. Tip of the hat to one of our COMPETENT pilots...

:hi:

[DemoTex]

15. Thanks ATC!

Just tell me where to go. Probably that damn holding pattern over PVD, right turns, one-minute legs!

[MercutioATC]

19. I always give 10-mile legs.

...and believe me, I'd rather you were on the ground drinking coffee, too. The fewer planes I have at any given time, the better :)

[DemoTex]

22. Bless you my son!

I love some 10-mile legs. Especially over KPVD waiting for KBOS!

[MercutioATC]

27. The new ICAO "K" prefix makes for some funny new identifiers...

Little Rock and Kokomo come immediately to mind...

[DemoTex]

32. Spell it out brother!

.....

[MercutioATC]

36. Well, as you're aware, before the ICAO compliance thing.....

Little Rock used to be "LIT" and Kokomo used to be "OKK".

Add a "K" to the beginning of each of those, and you have a lot of sniggering controllers.


Then again, we still stifle laughs every time we say "Cleared to Bangor".

[DemoTex]

42. I am very partial to Little Rock

I love KLIT

[MercutioATC]

43. I'm surprised we don't get more laughs from the younger pilots.

You know times are changing...

I asked for a ride report a couple of weeks ago from a regional jet. The pilot's response? "It sucks".

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

57. Was he flying to SUX?

[MercutioATC]

61. Do you mean KSUX?

Naw, Cleveland to Dallas...no Sioux City.

[WritersBlock]

86. Coulda been ITSUX? ;)

56° 2' 60N 3° 30' 0E

[hootinholler]

35. Ok, You're going to have me looking them up tomorrow.

:rofl:

-Hoot

[Fridays Child]

2. While I might find your message difficult to understand...

...my Vietnam vet husband hears you loud and clear. :)

[stray cat]

3. MacT - why do you fly well - do you hate america -? :sarcasm:

[thunder rising]

4. I guess that means your not fit to be President (whoaa ... buddy ... don't shoot ... just joking)

[DemoTex]

20. Fit to be President?

I've got so many skeletons in my closets that I can't even talk about that!

[clixtox]

53. Probably fewer than McLame...

Who, similarly to GWShrub, has a lot of hypocrisy, deceit, bigamy and who knows what all else, to be ashamed of in his past.

[Xipe Totec]

5. That's the difference between the Right Stuff, and the light stuff nt

:applause:

[madeline_con]

6. Thank you for your service and your post!

:patriot:

[jedr]

7. Out of curiosity;

Do you think that W can fly? I say he can't. Never met a pilot that that didn't love it and fly privately themselves.

[driver8]

12. I've often wondered that myself...

Something tells me he can't!

[DemoTex]

17. Yes .. he made it to a F-102 squadron in TANG.

But no, in the general sense. I think his flunk-out from TANG was as much his inability to master the aircraft as it was his drug habit.



Read my DU editorial from 2004:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/02/21_lies.html

[jedr]

56. Thanks; that was my take too;

Know a bunch of glider pilots, most are ex fighter pilots. Swear they were birds in a former life. Their feet only touch the ground because they have to. The "Mission Accomplished" brouhaha left me feel that we were watching a "wannabe" strutting around a flight deck. Thanks for your service from an Navy bomb bouncer.:toast:

[DemoTex]

71. I'm a glider pilot too. Ran a glider-port in a former life!

Loved hooking thermals in ASW-15s and ASW-17s and Libelles. Hard high-G turns into the thermal and hard tight turns to stay in. Just like an F-4 in a vertical scissors with a MiG-21!

[knitter4democracy]

90. I got to ride in one twice at a local group's get-together.

Best flight of my life. It's so quiet and so amazingly fun. I could've stayed up there for ages. Lots more fun than planes.

[kestrel91316]

8. My dad flew I don't know HOW many unarmed recon missions

over NVN and he never got shot down and became a POW either. But he sure as hell served.

[amerikat]

9. Just a guess but, you probably didn't graduate 5th from the bottom in your class.

And I bet you didn't have a father that was an Admiral.

[DemoTex]

13. Bingo!

Bwaaa haaa haaa haaa!

[Howardx]

10. "unarmed"

what were you flying? rf4?

good for you for making it through.

[DemoTex]

14. SP-2E

[Iggo]

66. That's a good-looking plane.

What's that on the belly?

[DemoTex]

73. That was a radome, I think.

Our ARMY SP-2Es did not have that radome. Except for #7, our training aircraft. And on it the dome was inert.

[TahitiNut]

84. I thought it was ASW stuff.

Shows what little I know. :shrug:

[Richard D]

11. I'm glad . . .

. . . someone who was there said this. I've been thinking it for a while but didn't feel like I had the right to say it.

[libnnc]

16. I love you.

:applause:

:kick:

[DemoTex]

77. Then I became a Piedmont pilot, and learned to love Winston-Salem.

Especially Simos!

[arthritisR_US]

18. the difference between you and McLame is that YOU can fly a plane, he CAN'T! n/t

[DemoTex]

26. Well .. that is another point.

I was hired and flew for a major US airline. I really doubt that Volcano MacCane could have ever passed the personality tests (Stanine, MMPI, etc) to become an airline pilot.

[arthritisR_US]

34. indeed, his Oedipal problems would have sunk him before any plane did. n/t

[hootinholler]

41. My understanding is he can fly them ok...

It's the landing part he had troubles with.

:shrug:

Hey I wonder if he was declared an ace when he was making those movies for NV? He did down 5 planes.

-Hoot

[arthritisR_US]

65. he can fly them but not land them, hmmmmm.......

deja vue to 9/11....

[hootinholler]

67. Actually, I mis-spoke...

One he got tangled up in some power lines and another went boom after a missile hit it.

-Hoot

[Captain Hilts]

21. Luck counts. I'm glad you got home safely. nt

[DemoTex]

30. BINGO! Luck counts big.

I was luckier than good. McCain was neither lucky nor good.

BAM! SLAM! SHOT DOWN!

[Captain Hilts]

33. Well said!

thanks for volunteering to fly.

Personally, I HATE Neptunes...

[undeterred]

23. You're no John McCain.

Thank your lucky stars! :toast:

[cliffordu]

24. I salute you sir, you have what the kids call "Mad Skeels."

Thanks for clarifying what many people don't know about what a successful pilot can do.

I would bet you never knew anyone who played with wet starts....


Thanks for your service. Welcome home.

:patriot:

[tavalon]

25. I'm sure you were a good pilot and I doubt that McCain was that good

but, we all like to think that we won't get hit by bad luck, that we have the ability to avoid it, but it's an illusion. You were lucky. He wasn't. Whatever part of skill skewed both of those situations is impossible, at this late date, to say.

[KittyWampus]

28. why on god's green earth would they send you out in planes with no fire-power?

seriously

Does the military just have a sick and dark sense of humor?

[caraher]

46. It wouldn't help

Recce aircraft are there to gather intelligence. In some cases, recce aircraft are stripped of weapons in a trade of firepower for speed. That would not apply to a Neptune, though! In other cases, the weight has to go to specialized equipment without which the mission cannot happen.

Doesn't matter how many guns you stick on the plane, you're still going to be vulnerable to missiles, antiaircraft guns and (if flying low) small arms fire. And on a Neptune, you're not going to shoot down an attacking fighter plane even if you were armed. Unless maybe John McCain is flying it ;)

It's not sadism - it's pragmatism. Nobody said military flying is unlikely to be fatal!

[DemoTex]

70. Good description of RECCE missions ..

Boredom/Danger/Boredom/Danger/Boredom/Danger/Boredom/Danger ..

[Olney Blue]

29. Thank God we had some competent pilots who avoided capture.

[yowzayowzayowza]

31. Dad flew the OV-10. After taking a few rounds...

he became born-again slippery. Thankfully came back in one piece. Thx for your service. :hi:

[DemoTex]

37. We were THICK with a couple of OV-10 units!

Was he a "NAIL"? If not, what was his callsign? I was CATSPAW--911, CRAZYCAT-911, and VANGUARD-911.

[yowzayowzayowza]

45. Check that. O-2A. Mostly lit up targets with flares.

Up close and personal. He always lusted after the OV10s and later the A10s!!!! Previously an instructor pilot he moved on to tankers.

[DemoTex]

54. Worked with the Oscar-Deuces a lot too!

Remember his callsign?

[yowzayowzayowza]

62. Don't think I ever knew.

I'll ask 'em next time we talk. That was grade school for me.

[DemoTex]

69. Yes .. you should really ask.

Your dad would appreciate it.

[FogerRox]

93. Yes find out his call sign, yes, yes.

I have a friend who was in the big red one, he just found a guy he hadnt seen since he was 19 yrs old. It really means a lot.

[ladywnch]

38. how many planes did YOU crash before you saw combat?!!!!!

I wonder if McSame remembers how many planes he lost before he was shot down!??? He must have been a MUCH better pilot to have lost 4 planes before he ever saw combat.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[DemoTex]

44. ZERO!

I have 17,000+ hours with no scratch whatsoever on any aircraft!

[ladywnch]

47. you do realize I was joking......right?! I do admire your service

I just don't want any misunderstandings.......

it was intended as a dig a McCain. I apologize if it missed the mark.

[DemoTex]

50. I did ...

I took the joke and advanced it!

[Poiuyt]

My father flew 72 missions in his B-25 over N. Africa and Italy

He had to do a belly flop landing once though. I asked him if his superiors praised him for saving the lives of his crew. He said, no, they gave him hell for damaging the plane!

[caraher]

39. Thanks for putting your ass on the line

But... as far as I can tell a total of 3 Neptunes were lost on combat missions in the entire Vietnam war vs. 257 A-4s. Totally different mission - there's no way to "avoid SAMs" and hit your assigned target "Downtown." Your duty was hazardous, no question, but any fair look at the numbers shows that the fighter and attack missions were far more dangerous.

I'm not saying McCain was a good pilot - he lost at least 3 planes in flight outside combat. I've even seen his supporters point out that he admits that he was no great aviator. Still, I've yet to read a detailed account of his shootdown. This is the nearest thing I've found online. And even the best of pilots lost planes in Vietnam. Disgraced ace Randy Cunningham never made it back to his carrier after scoring kill #5 thanks to a SAM. He grew up to be a corrupt Republican congressman, but few question his fighter pilot cred.

A lot of pilots spent years at the Hanoi Hilton because they were not up to the job... But simply because a pilot was shot down does not prove he was grossly incompetent. Just as it does not follow that getting shot down makes one a hero...

Here's an amazing story that says a lot more about what kind of man McCain is than whether or not he flew "smart..." This says a lot more about why he should not be president...

[DemoTex]

48. The US Army flew 7 P-2s, and the USAF flew about 3 P-2s over Viet Nam.

It took guts to fly our mission. Period. Three were shot down. That is 30%. Not good!

[caraher]

114. That's a pretty serious loss rate by any standards!

But you did get through 250 missions... how many sorties are we talking from those 10 planes anyway?

I guess I tend to get really annoyed about people picking on McCain's flying simply because he was shot down - as you well know, lots of good pilots get shot down (though of course the lousy ones do so at a higher rate!). Given the target he was dealt on that raid I don't see much wiggle room for avoiding air defenses short of aborting the mission. Note that his strike package was 20-22 planes (accounts I've seen vary) and two planes were lost - that's roughly 10% in 1 sortie. It wasn't just McSame; that single cruise took an enormous toll on its fliers. According to a web page on memories of the Oriskany:

... at the end of the cruise of 1967, ORISKANY had flown an unprecedented 181 strikes in the high threat areas of Hanoi and Haiphong. ORISKANY pilots had participated in the first raids on Haiphong's shipyards, the Cam Pha port and the Phuc Yen MIG Base. The ORISKANY had sustained the highest losses of any carrier: 38 out of 70 planes were lost. 52 were damaged. One out of every four pilots had been captured or killed.

Anyway, thanks again for your service - it sounds like you did a lot of flying low and slow in what amounted to a big target.

[Norrin Radd]

40. kr

[stevedeshazer]

49. God bless you, man

I know what you mean.

Sincerely,

Vern

[DemoTex]

51. VERN!?

[HughMoran]

52. That's pretty impressive

...unlike McPOW - heh ;)

[catnhatnh]

55. We threw an entire, protracted , multi-decade war....

Who was the ONLY clown both sides wasted a missile on?

[ogneopasno]

58. I've long wondered why failing at a mission makes one a hero.

I thank you for your service.

[Thothmes]

101. Did all of those pilots that got shot down over

Germany or Japan fail in their missions also. You do think they were not heros. Or were they just bad pilots.

[DemoTex]

111. No .. and that is a good point.

There were heros in Viet Nam too. I just don't think McCain was one of them. Check out the story of my friend Dick Rutan (a R/W Repub). Dick and Jenna Yearger flew around the world in the Voyager! But Dick was a Misty FAST-FAC (F-100-F). Read his stories! MoFo could fly a damn little jet!

[Thothmes]

112. I would not call McCain a hero

I would also not call him a coward, as many on the forum do. He was one of those men that flew off the carriers and airfields to bomb Hanoi, flying in the heaviest concentration of anti-air artillery and anti-air missles on the planet. The North Vietnames had unlimited quanities of the best equipment that the Soviet Union could manufacture. Even Berlin and Tokyo were not as well defended during WWII. He flew over those targets just like hundreds of other aviators, and like a lot of them his plane was hit. Unlike many of them, he survived. Heroic, no. Cowardly, no. Just doing the job that the President of the United States order them to do..

[rebel with a cause]

59. Maybe you just didn't try hard enough. ; )

Just think, we could owe you the presidency if you had just done all you could do to be a POW. :sarcasm:

[DemoTex]

60. Let me re-fly that night mission over Tchepone on 2/11/1971.

Noon, local time:

It is near 100 degrees F, but feels much hotter in the ubiquitous tropical heat of Cam Rahn Bay. The port engine -- one of two big Wright Cyclone R-3350-30Ws -- was a bitch starting, but growls and coughs beatutifully as we taxi for takeoff. The flight engineer starts the two outboard Westinghouse J-34 jets and finishes reading the checklist as we lumber onto the runway for a “feet wet” (over water) departure.

12:30 local time:

Hon Tre Island slides under the port wing as we climb into mercifully cooler air over the azure South China Sea. “Portcall” tactical control calls a flight of southbound F-4s, which pass uncomfortably close on the starboard side. The mission controller comes forward with a report on the mission gear status and takes our orders for breakfast, which he cooks in the small galley aft of the wing beam. Steak and eggs for me, please. And coffee black.

13:30 local time:

We are abeam Hue, still “feet wet.” We will be turning in “feet dry” at Quang Tri, just south of the DMZ. The flight engineer and mission controller confirm the final check of mission and survival gear. Another black coffee, please.

14:00 local time:

“Panama” tactical clears us into the target area, which today is a long oval racetrack from just outside the Mu Gia and Ban Kari SAM arcs to points way down the Ho Chi Minh trail in the “Steel Tiger” area of Laos. As we make the turn over Quang Tri we hear “King” on guard talking with a “Sandy” (A-1 Skyraider) which has come off a target near Tchepone with battle damage. Now a “Mayday” from Sandy … he is going down near the trail. Shit. We’ll be starting the day working SAR (search-and-rescue) on Sandy.

15:00 local time:

Sandy was working an F-100 “Misty” shoot-down. The Misty pilot was in the basket being hoisted aboard the Jolly Green when Sandy got hit. Sandy lead watched his wingman’s chute and provided close air support until a second Jolly Green arrived. We loitered nearby with the DF gear ready. Didn’t need it today.

16:00 – 18:00 local time:

Standard mission on the trail. Lotsa coffee.

19:00 local time:

Darkness comes quickly in the tropics. Now it gets scary ‘cause you can see the 37mm and 57mm anti-aircraft fire from the batteries along the trail. We are seven hours into the mission with eleven more to go. Yes, coffee black, please. Thanks.

21:00 local time:

The mission controller is back up for our dinner orders. Steak and eggs again. More coffee. “Moonbeam” calls a SAM launch, vicinity of the Mu Gia Pass. No sweat for us.

23:00 local time:

We are fighting sleep now. The wa-wa-wa of slightly out-of-sync props is the most soporific sound in the world when fatigue is driving. The trail is coming alive, though. The NVA are so brazen that they are running convoys with lights down the middle of the A Shau Valley. “Nail 15” calls for snake and nape on a line of trucks near Ta Bat. Two F-4s from Phu Cat respond.

00:30 local time:

Moonbeam calls an “Arc Light” (B-52) strike on the Khe Sahn 270 for 30 miles. A SAM battery near the DMZ opens up on the B-52s. A 57mm battery near Tchepone opens up on us. Green balls float softly towards us, dropping away a couple of thousand feet below. Here’s to you Mrs. Robinson, Jesus loves you more than you can know …

01:00 local time:

The eastern edge of the target area is getting difficult to work. There are multiple fire missions (artillery) from numerous FSBs near the A Shau. An Army OV1 Mohawk on a SLAR mission on the trail has battle damage. We pick him up visually near Khe Sahn as he limps back to Phu Bai. He makes it home.

02:15 local time:

The flight engineer and mission controller secure the aircraft for a refueling stop in Danang. All mission related documents are locked in canvas bags and all trash is stuffed into burn bags. A Morse intercept operator from the back, bleary-eyed and shaky, brings me another cup of coffee.

02:45 local time:

Danang tower clears us for a visual to follow a flight of Marine F-4s on a 270 overhead break from the west. We land and taxi in for a load of 115/145 aviation purple passion (gasoline).

04:45 local time:

We are airborne again. Southbound, feet wet, RTB (return to base). We will burn the aux jets all the way to Cam Rahn Bay. We are doing 280 knots (325 mph). We are dangerous. We are nauseated from the coffee, but we still pour it down. Pour it down and pour it on. We touch down at Cam Rahn at exactly 06:00 local time, eighteen hours after departing on what was a rather typical mission. The strongest drug available to us was caffeine. We are wired now. We will unlock the club and have the breakfast of champions: a couple of beers, a cigarette or two, and a good puke.

[rebel with a cause]

72. Great post....

Loved reading it. I could see you as a young man there in your plane carrying out your mission.

Sorry if mine offended. There are times when I am sick, stressed, or tired that I am kept going by my humor, and the more tired, sick or stressed I am the darker that humor becomes. These days I am all three (none of it major), so my humor is not only dark, it is sick and stupid. Will try to keep it contained. Again, sorry.

[DemoTex]

75. No! No! Your post never ever offended!

It was just a good segue for that story.

Mac

[rebel with a cause]

76. Good,

Sometimes people don't know how to take me. Glad I gave you the segue, because like I said, it was a great story. :applause:

[Nostradammit]

85. This son of a Spectre nav thanks you for that

That was helpful to me.

[SunDrop23]

63. THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!!

John "Crash" McCain has pimped himself out with all these tales about him being in VietNam...

WTF?!?! He did what you're not supposed to do in war! Get shot down and get caught by the enemy! He failed!

COME ON!

That's why I say I bet he doesn't fly the campaign jet!

GREAT POST!

[UTUSN]

64. Finally, somebody NAILED it!1 We've only heard from Poppy & McPLANES, the f-ups!1

[DemoTex]

68. Most of us came back unscathed.

Most of us became smart quick, faced with the NVA.

[FogerRox]

95. Demo Tex, lets be clear, tactial doctrine for that downtown trip

DO I have this right?

The A-4 was a good plane with a large delta wing, maneuverable, about 650 mph top speed. IIRC McCains last mission was with 35 other planes. Wild Weasels, and fighters, to go with the A-4.

Wild Weasels are filled with electronic stuff, the trick is let the SAMs see the A-4s, the Weasals are already loitering, waiting for a SAM battery to fire up its radar to shoot at the A-4's, as soon as that happens the Weasals jump on the SAM. When the MIGs show to go after the A-4, the fighters deal with the MIGs.

When a SAM gets thru the Weasel coverage, and approaches an A-4, the trick (As I understand it) is to present a small profile by turning sideways, diving to make the SAM miss. The real trick is to not dive too far, lest you get in the way of AAA fire.

I think Wiki says the majority of A-4 loses were to AAA fire, almost as if most pilots that got shoot down, slipped by the SAMs, but got too close to the AAA fire.

I dont know, I think McCain was flying level when the SAM hit his wing. Thats my guess. I dont think he made an evasive maneuver.

The A-4 is an excellent plane, generous sized control surfaces, large wing for lots of lift, an easy to fly, very maneuverable plane.

Hey Demo Tex, I was at the Reading PA air show a few years back, they had 2 Ah-1's, build date Nov '71. Completely updated. I asked the pilot if the helo was 1st air Cav, his eyes lit up, I got the open door tour after the crowd left. Those guys wrote the book.

Welcome home friend.

[lonestarnot]

74. Woot Demo-Tex!

:patriot: :applause: carry-on! :patriot:

[bertman]

78. Great Stuff, Demo Tex. And thanks for the mission log. That was an eye-opener. I'm really

surprised that you guys couldn't get some "pharmaceutical assistance" for those eighteen hour missions.

I love it when other vets step up to tell McAnus to shove it up his ass. He's a disgrace and an embarrassment to many of us who served. Thanks for putting in your $.02 worth.

[SoCalDem]

79. Why do you hate America? You could have been presidential material

if you hadn't been such a good pilot:)

[TexasObserver]

80. Well said.

There were tons of aircraft in the air that didn't have McCain's capabilities which didn't get shot down. Everything we have on McCain says he was a lousy pilot from start to finish in the military, and without a doubt, would have been a wash out without his dad being a grand wizard of the Navy.

[Vickers]

81. Dude, you fucking RAWK.

:patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot:

SALUTE!

[roguevalley]

82. Hugs, Demo Tex. Mycousin never got caught either. Agent orange got him.

RIP, Ross Paxton and God bless you, Demo Tex.

[Lugnut]

83. Thank you for your service.

:patriot:

[Hekate]

87. You mean to say you didn't lose five aircraft?

Thanks. And thanks for your service. And glad you made it back home.
:toast:

Hekate

[mikeytherat]

88. Same as my father - 250+ missions and no lost planes

25+ years of service, weapons officer on F-4s during 'nam, and later a pilot for F-15s and F-16s. 250+ missions in southeast Asia and zero lost aircraft.

If McCain is a "hero," then my dad must be Superman.

mikey_the_rat

[cabbage08]

89. Thank you for your service n/t

[knitter4democracy]

91. Thank you for flying those missions and keeping us safe.

As opposed to someone who flew a few and didn't do squat to keep us safe, actually giving info to the enemy and destroyed millions of dollars worth of aircraft . . .

Btw, a guy in my church growing up flew missions in WWII out of Italy, just like in Catch 22. I asked him whether the book was accurate after church once, and that started a long tirade on how accurate it really was, how scary it was to be shot at, how sad it is to watch a plane go down with your buddy on it, and how awful war really is. They really were trying to kill you, man.

[nichomachus]

92. OK, flyboys (and girls), answer me this

Would anyone who was not an admiral's son and an admiral's grandson have been allowed to continue flying if he had crashed four planes during training? It seems to me they might give you one. They might get a little queasy at two. But, after the fourth one, wouldn't they think they'd rather go with someone else?

[Thothmes]

99. He didnt crash 4 planes in training

He was involved in 3 crashes after he completed flight trainging. The forth A/C accident was on the flight deck of the Forrestal where his A4 was struck by a Zuni missile. His fifth was when he was shot down during an Alfa strike against Hanoi.

[nichomachus]

103. So how many planes do you get to crash

before they decide you're not with the program?

I know if I wrecked four cars in a short period of time, my auto insurance would be about a million dollars a year.

[DemoTex]

106. Well .. the first three certainly raise my eyebrows.

Was there a FEB (Flight Evaluation Board), or NATOPS equivalent? The USS Forestall is another story (or is it?). The shoot-down was quintessential John McCain (of that era): low and slow over a low-value target in a high risk environment.

[nichomachus]

107. I suspect that when your father is an admiral

and your grandfather was too, you get a limitless supply of airplanes to crash.

After all, they let Dubya keep flying, even after they knew he was a cokehead.

[Thothmes]

109. As long as he could launch and land on an Aircraft Carrier

the Navy would have a cockpit for him. He was fully carrier qualified, he had between 90 & 100 arrested landings on a carrier, a third of them at night.
That was good enough to send him against Hanoi 23 times. remember in those years, the Navy need anyone that could drop bombs on North Vietnam. As long as you could drop bombs, what happened in previous years ashore did not matter that much.

[MadrasT]

94. Thank You!

:hi: for saying (I think) what my Army vet husband has been saying all along: "Getting captured means you fucked up."

And THANK YOU :pals: for your service. :patriot:

[FogerRox]

96. Sp 2e, anti sub, anti shipping, Navy and Army flew 'em

Army pilot over here:

http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/specs/lockheed/p2v-5fs.htm


Then there were was the spy missions.

[DemoTex]

104. BTW: When I was at Naval Air Facility Cam Ranh Bay, two Navy P-3 squadrons rotated duty.

VP-1 and VP-7. They flew maritime patrol in the South China Sea. One of those VPers (who I did not know at the time, although we partied with them all the time), became a Naval Reserve admiral and was a pilot for the same airline with me. A few years back an ALPA freeper-type jumped me on the ALPA Board. The Admiral came back with the most eloquent knock-down I have ever read. Those Navy guys realized that while they were out over the open and deep blue South China Sea in their Lockheed P-3 Orions, we Army guys were over the Ho Chi Minh Trail at night in our aging SP-2E Neptunes. Admiral X said in his knockdown that he would tote Mac T.'s helmet bag through the portals of hell for me, since I had already been there before (Tchepone, Laos).

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChristopherL]

98. Thanks.

Thanks.

[fascisthunter]

100. OUCH!

Thank you for your service and glad you are still fighting.

[Aristus]

102. Well Mac, it's like Howard Stern said: We never would have heard of McCain if he had just been

a better pilot.

I take my hat off to you yet again, sir. :patriot:

You are my hero. B-)







Well, one of them, anyway... :toast:

[DemoTex]

105. Thanks friend! And I am anonymous because I did not F/U. As well it should be!

I think that was the astronauts axion in Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff: God don't let me fuck up. So .. was McCain ever a candidate for astronaut? All the hot-shit pilots of his era were. Just askin'!

[nichomachus]

108. I don't know -- but I don't think he even wanted to fly any more at all

isn't that the story? He was considering getting out before he went to VN -- and someone talked him into staying.

[DemoTex]

110. He did not have a choice ..

He was owned by the Navy. Those stories are specious!

[lutefisk]

113. Just have to say: Great thread, Demo Tex! . . . n/t

:thumbsup: