Hey small business owners, if you can't pay your workers 7 pd sl days per annum,

[lonestarnot]

IMO you don't belong in business. hmmmmf.

[Bonobo]

1. Really? You know what they say about opinions, don't you?

[lonestarnot]

2. They are like assholes, everyone has one?

:shrug: LOL

[tavalon]

3. I think this particular asshole

is a good one. I agree with you.

[lonestarnot]

4. LOL.

:toast:

[Bonobo]

5. Precisely. Like others, business owners have been forced, in some cases, to do the best they can.

Sometimes it means paying less to their workers to stay in business. For some, less money is better than no money.

When the screws get screwed down tighter and tighter, naturally the people at the bottom of the food chain get the raw end of the deal.

But to say you think they should not be in business?

As for me, I work with freelancers. And since I have seen a drop in my per unit price from 10 years ago (forget about rising with inflation/cost of living increases) then naturally I have to find cheaper freelancers to stay in business.

[tkmorris]

6. Perhaps your business model is not functional

You strike me as a remarkably calloused employer.

[Captain Sensible]

8. Calloused???? Like rough hands?

Or Callous?

[tkmorris]

10. Callous

Thank you kindly for pointing out the error. What do I owe you?

[Captain Sensible]

14. Barack as President, take your time.....nt

[Bonobo]

137. As I said, I am not an employer. They are freelance. Know the difference?

[romulusnr]

219. Yes

Yeah, they get crap for pay, higher out of pocket costs, zilch benefits, zero job security.

THANKS SO MUCH.

[roguevalley]

210. businesses are struggling. they make due around sicknesses sometimes

rather than actually pay them out of pocket. its damn hard out here to stay in business. painting all with a brush is wrong.

[Greyhound]

12. What's your final margin before salaries/benefits?

In my experience, most employers who cry over a raise in minimum wage/benefit requirements are simply unwilling to accept less profit and reduce what they themselves take out of the business. Perhaps ironically, the owners are also usually the most expendable person(s) on the payroll.

[truedelphi]

20. But wouldn't you agree that there is a big difference

Between say Proctor and Gamble, and Little Baby's Pizzeria that just opened up down the block??

Some people I know who own and work their own businesses have weeks when they are putting like less than $ 300 in their own pocket. At 45 to 60 hours a week that is how much an hour??

[Greyhound]

23. But that is the essence of being a SBO.

I've been there 3 times myself and those circumstances don't last (or the business doesn't last).

We have far too many people that own businesses that get the venture up and running for 6 months and then decide they don't have to work any more and hire a staff at minimum wage and are never seen again as they buy the big house in the burbs, a Yukon and a Mercedes, and join the community club to live the good life on borrowed money.

Meanwhile the business goes down the toilet because the people running it have no stake or motivation to do anything but show up and collect their meager check. In the end, everybody loses.

In another irony of this thread, one of the worst offenders of this scenario I've know owned a pizza joint. He started well, made a little money, opened 4 more stores and then retreated to his new house in Cherry Hills and left the operation to his underpaid and over worked managers. Of course he went out of business 2 - 3 years later. It's too bad too because the pizza was excellent.

The difference between those examples (P&G vs. LBP) is scale and public financing (another reason to eliminate the whole corporate structure as it exists).

[TahitiNut]

73. We can take that even further (from what I know for a fact) ...

... where the 'owner' and family drive a company-owned vehicle or two or three as their personal cars... attend sporting events in primo seating (purchased by the company, of course), have televisions and appliances that were bought by the company, do some of their shopping at CostCo on the company's account ...

... and never report it as 'compensation' and never pay income taxes on it.

At the same time, these "expenses" to the business are part of the basis for layoffs, low cost-of-living wage adjustments and other robbery from the emplyees of the business ... who are often urged to show their "commitment" by working causal overtime.

Yes ... like I say, I know it for a FACT ... in more than one small business.

[lonestarnot]

177. Some are going to be in for a surprise from IRS this coming year when

those expenses all of a sudden fall into the income portion of their return. :) They are getting burned and they apparently are tired of tolerating it. :shrug:

[WhiteTara]

27. except when they sign

your paycheck. Without an employer, there is no employee.

[Indenturedebtor]

201. But without an employer someone else will fill that spot

Most employers aren't special... they just happen to have some start up capital. As a biz-biz salesperson, lemme tell you that most business owners are barely mentally functional.

[WhiteTara]

205. I used to employ a supervisor

who's motto was: See this button? when it falls off, I'll put a new one on. But, I found that the most important part of our company (beyond our product) was the people. Finding the right chemistry that holds together for long periods of time is what a real entrepreneur strives for.

I've found that most people are barely functional.

[Greyhound]

207. There's the real issue right there, and the fundamental weakness

to the whole system as we've set it up. People are "barely functional" after a lifetime of devaluing and not receiving an education, a lifetime of not being allowed to do what they want to do, and a lifetime of having what they are allowed to do being taken for granted and being poorly compensated for it, to boot.

People just shut down and withdraw into the comfort of incompetence, if you're not very good nobody will ask you to do more.

Finding folks that have evaded that system and blend into the chemistry of the organization are, indeed, very hard to find. That is one of the most important aspects of effective management, but is completely ignored in our "management" schools.

Businesses are all about people, not spreadsheets.

[lonestarnot]

15. Sometimes doing the best you can is what's best for the business owner.

Do your freelancers meet in a common area for their labor?

[Captain Sensible]

17. What????

You act like employers are there to serve their employees. They are there to serve their customers.
Employees get pain to assist company s in their business, employers will pay whatever the market will bear. they are not charities and have a right to make whatever profit they make of a relust of balancing sales price and outgoing expenses.

[lonestarnot]

22. Yeah mr. manager bootstraps. Preach your market shit to someone who gives a fuck about the lie

of the market and what it will bear. Humans before markets and kiss my ass!

[Kitty Herder]

189. Great response!

People say this shit as if it were gospel truth and don't even see the pathology of that kind of thinking. The ideology of profits before people is sick, but most people can't even see the how sick it is because they've been brainwashed to believe it since birth.

[Odin2005]

70. Employers are there to serve thier capitalist masters. n/t.

[mitchum]

81. Something tells me that Captain Sensible doesn't disagree with that

[mitchum]

80. Yes indeed! Just who do those uppity workers think they are???!!!

The nerve!

[davekriss]

106. But we, stakeholders in the business, have rights too

In my world, if I could wave my magic wand. After all, a "business" is a social enterprise. The business owner doesn't make a dime without the people willing to create value from which he or she extracts that dime.

There is nothing stopping us as a democracy from passing laws such as a 35 hour work-week, mandatory sick and vacation time, anything. We can, a majority of us, impose our democratic will on the rules of the game so we extract a little more value, and the "owner" extracts a little less profit, out of our labor. The only thing stopping us is too many of us have fallen for the propaganda.

Yes, if we did so -- changed the rules of the game in progressive ways --, then some existing business plans will blow up and the owner will have to take his remaining marbles and go home. But the entrepreneurial spirit lives on, someone else will fill the void and meet the new, progressive rules of the game, resulting in a better outcome for all of us.

[verges]

160. In a small part, I kinda agree.

But, doesn't it make sense to have happy, healthy, employees who give a damn? The employer does have a responsibility to ensure that the customer is dealing with pleasant employees and recieves a quality product. The odds of this increase if the employees aren't marginalized.

[Dreamer Tatum]

126. And almost all of them stink nt

[Matariki]

76. Opinions are like assholes - if you don't have one, you're full of shit.

[lonestarnot]

178. I like that one too.

[Mojambo]

7. I work for a small business owner who can't give me paid time off

And maybe my opinion is colored because he's also a friend of mine, but I don't want to see him lose his business.

It would be one thing if he were living high on the hog and really raking in the money, but he's not. He's struggling nearly as much as I am.

I'm confident he would provide those benefits if he could.

[lonestarnot]

11. I have compassion for his struggle and your plight in his struggle, but this does not change my

opinion on this matter. If you are forced to go to work sick, you make him sick, then who is going to hold everyone up?

[Mojambo]

18. Well, we only have 3 employees total, so everybody works sick

Given the choice between some employer provided sick days and some government provided health care I'd much prefer the latter.

[lonestarnot]

21. And we have a chance at the latter! Isn't that something!

:woohoo: Can't wait!

[Fla Dem]

130. I work for a SBO and haven't been paid in 2 month.

I'm ok financially, and owner is a friend... they have hit hard times with the real estate market. They're trying to keep the business going, but monthly bills surpass income. It's been touch and go for a year. What bothers me, is that when times were good they didn't put anything into reserves to prevent this exact thing from happening. I write the checks, so next time a sale comes in, I'm writing mine first.

[lonestarnot]

179. Yikes! I hope it works out for you.

[MGKrebs]

9. How much vacation time and how many holidays should we offer?

[lonestarnot]

13. vacation time is another matter. Holidays, very close to the same as vacations.

[Greyhound]

19. European companies seem to be doing fine, kicking our asses even, while providing

4 weeks to start and progressing to 12 weeks per year. Of course, they don't pay nearly as much at the top end of the scale and they have a social structure that accommodates all of it's citizens.

Millionaire Dentists are very rare, for example. It is, and always has been, a matter of priorities.

[lonestarnot]

26. Mouthful right there!

:applause:

[Codeine]

78. European companies aren't dealing with

the complications of employer-provided health insurance and the like; our companies have to provide for their own profits and those of the insurance companies both.

Universal Healthcare Now!

[Ex Lurker]

83. This I agree with n/t

[Mass]

104. Obviously, you have never worked in Europe.

In France, payroll taxes and healthcare are mostly paid by the companies (mandatory and to a central organism managed by companies and unions), and they pay 5 weeks of paid vacations. Minimum wage these days is about 8 euros.

My guess is that Germany works the same way. Not sure for spain and Italy.

[kath]

145. They also get PENSIONS. Real pensions. And in France, the work week is 35 hours

(though that may be changing recently, not sure)

[lonestarnot]

180. And that is a man date! Insurance cos. must have their profits you know.

Single payer NOW!

[Truth4Justice]

97. Universal health must help. No one should have to rely on the employer for that.

[Kitty Herder]

192. Thank you for bringing some sanity to this discussion, Greyhound.

:applause:

[Captain Sensible]

16. Have you ever had to run a business?

Just asking.

[lonestarnot]

25. I know what the taxes look like, I've seen expenses, I've seen what it costs, and it isn't easy, but

to cheat your best asset, your labor, by making them work while ill is wrong. 7 days a year when you have less than 12 employees is not to fucking much to ask.

[WhiteTara]

28. what does your employer

say? Surely you two have had a conversation.

[lonestarnot]

30. I'm not talking about my employer. My employer is generous and

I rarely get sick, but when I do, I'm paid.

[readmoreoften]

164. I did for 6 years and I agree with the OP. /nt

[Ikonoklast]

24. Don't like it? Start your own business.

See just how easy and simple it is being a small business owner. My God, the money just rolls in, so much I can't find the time to count it all.

Sick of being just an employee? Be the boss! Work 100+ hours a week, while your employees bitch about being overworked working forty! Get to work every day of the week, holidays included! Paid vacations for the boss? Not fucking happening! Sick leave? What's that? Can't make payroll for your employees if you take a paycheck that week? No pay that week for the boss.

I had a union job that didn't pay 7 sick leave days a year.

Reality would bite you in the ass if you were on the other side of the fence, my friend. The business owner took ALL the risks to start up their operation, many times pledging every bit of equity they own.

You are just hired help.

Don't like the terms of your employment? Forgot to ask about sick leave when you hired on? Change your mind about things after you got the job?

Tough.

Quit.

[lonestarnot]

29. Oh cry me a fucking river! You wouldn't have shit if you didn't have employees that would work for

the chicken feed you prollee pay them. Yeah tough quit! Then you have your own ass to bite! LOL Good luck with your humanity.

[treestar]

33. Then so they can work elsewhere, for the big corporations

who can afford to give them all the benefits, right?

You're saying that the small business does not belong in business, right? so then they should shut down and those employees who were working there can just easily get a job with the big corporations that monopolize the economy. Except that if those say they are laying off or outsourcing, well, too bad, and it's better to have no job at all than for an employer that is starting out and too small to grant all the benefits.

[lonestarnot]

36. Oh for fuck sakes, not saying any such thing. 7 days per year and oh my god we have to shut down

all small businesses. Preposterous!

[treestar]

60. Some might.

Or, they wouldn't have to shut down, but the drag might be that they can't afford something else, which would benefit the employee.

Most small businesses I know of actually don't offer real sick days, but never fire anyone who stays home for being sick.

In fact, if you work for a small business, you are more likely to get to just say you have a dentist or doctor's appointment and get to go without any consequences. If you work for a big employer, you probably have to fill out paperwork and take some sort of sick time or the like.

It is more likely the employer can't offer actual health insurance. Which is why a national plan would be best. It would help others compete in the business world and allow for more new employers to get going.

[lonestarnot]

159. Gee. Reasonableness.

I think I recognize it! :)

[Ikonoklast]

35. I operate a BUSINESS, not a charity.

You don't like the conditions of your employment, you can:

1. Organize a union and bargain with your employer
2. Find other employment
3. Bitch and moan and do nothing

I see #3 must be working for you.

Spoken like a person that never risked everything they own to go into business for themselves, personal dwelling, life insurance, but want the boss (Daddy) to give bennies away like party favors.

I worked with plenty of people just like you. Would rather wallow in sel-pity than do one constructive thing to make their situation better.

You realize that many small business owners take home less than some of their employees, don't you?

No, you don't.

[lonestarnot]

37. Oh is that so, bet you hate unions too! Snort!

:rofl: I would like to get a count of how many small business owners take home less than their employees. :P Threatened by 7 paid days per year. Yeah you belong in business for yourself. :D

[Ikonoklast]

45. UFCW twenty-four years

Shop Steward. Bargaining Committee. Grievance Committee. I know what it's like sitting at a negotiating table across from intransigent management. I know what it's like trying to get someone their job back, after one too many write-ups for sub-standard work/behavior/job attendance.

Yeah. I hate Labor.

And I do belong in business for myself. I answer to no boss, I beg no one for days off, I can't bitch about my compensation because I have no one to complain to except me.

And seven paid sick days? Times twelve employees in your shop? Eighty-four days of paid leave a year would put many small businesses in bankruptcy.

Do you know how many people would abuse sick time?

In our labor agreement, any sick days had to be excused by a doctor. Sick days were used just for that, being sick.

Not hungover. Not a 'bad case of the Mondays'. Not 'it's Friday and I want a long weekend.'

You better have been sick, or you got written up.

Paid time off isn't 'free'. Someone pays for it.

[lonestarnot]

48. Yes and it should be the employer! And you were one of those

union people who for 24 years really was not for the employee were you. Manager.

[Ikonoklast]

58. How many picket lines have you walked?

How many labor agreements have you helped negotiate? How many national labor conventions have you attended? What positions of responsibility have you held at your union local?

Oh, that's right, zero. None.

I used to have to go before management to save whiny losers their jobs, after they royally fucked up.

It's a two-way street. You just don't get something for nothing. You bargain for it.

[lonestarnot]

101. Whiney loosers! You fucker! You do not belong here!

Attended national conventions, in charge of many picket lines, strike every time there was one, in 120 degree hit walked for days, never missed a meeting, represented employees, never was an officer as was not into your bullshit popularity contest as you have demonstrated that was what it was to you. IMO you suck and I would hope to never patronize your business as I could tell by observation of your employees that are not happy and never will be working for your stupid ass.

[Naturyl]

111. Yeah, "whiny losers" jumped out at me, too.

Now where have we heard that kind of language used to describe opponents before? Hmm, gee, I dunno.

[lonestarnot]

115. Snort!

:rofl: A bushitler never changes its stripes!

[Ikonoklast]

125. Ask any union shop steward how much time he spends

On the troublemakers. People that shouldn't be working there, as there are plenty of others that would gladly do the job and not FUCK UP ALL THE TIME.

I guarantee you that they'll say 95% of his time defending grievances is with the same 5% of the membership.

You can't come to work drunk, and operate machinery.
You can't smoke dope on company premises.
You can't sell dope on company premises.
You can't tell a fellow employee that you'd like to see them naked.
You can't show up late every day for a week.
You can't tell customers to fuck off.
You can't leave the restroom without washing your hands.
You can't steal.
You can't clock your buddies in or out.
You can't sleep on the job.

And it's always the same losers that made life difficult for everyone, including their fellow employees.
But they didn't give a shit.
They were selfish pricks.

I could go on, but this is just some of the stuff I had to go before the grievance committee and management to try to save their jobs. And when these people would get suspended or fired after being warned many times, they would WHINE about how the union screwed them over, when, in all actuality, they did it to themselves.


WHINY LOSERS.


I hope that you never have to work with any. They make the working environment horrible for everyone.

[lonestarnot]

161. blah fuckety blah blah blah. Real union admiration there.

[Naturyl]

197. LOL

If that's how he talks about things he admires, I'd hate to be on his shit list...

Whoops, probably am by now.... oh well. :)

[sandnsea]

53. That's why you offer half back as a bonus

Then people won't use it unless they have to. That's like labor relations 101.

[Dr.Phool]

216. I can name you 2.

Me and my partner in our small restaurant, never took home a nickle in pay for 8 months. The employees got their pay. We still had to pay principle and interest on the home equity loans we took out to buy the business, and kept paying it the whole time. Out of our pockets.

I'd love to pay bennies and insurance. But, if the money ain't there, it ain't there.

[sandnsea]

43. Your employees risk all of that by working for you

Every time they get up and walk into your business, they risk losing it all because you don't provide benefits if they can't work. I bet you'd avoid paying workman's comp if you could too. Oh, and the only business owner that takes home less than their employees is called a failure, sooner or later.

[lonestarnot]

49. I'll bet you a beer he's behind on FICA!

:toast:

[Ikonoklast]

55. Really.

Avoid worker's comp ONE quarter in Ohio and all your assets get attached by the State Attorney General. Quickly.

Not a very wise thing to do.

And I'm so glad that you're clairvoyant about my business model.

What's the Dow closing at on Monday?

And no one ever held a gun to anyone's head to sign on for a job, or stay even if they don't like working there.

This is a free country, if you don't care for the terms of your employment, seek a position elsewhere. Trust me, there will be another person replacing you before lunch tomorrow.

I know employers that take home less than their highest paid employees. Some of them have been in business for decades. But I guess they'll fail because you said so. It just might take another fifty years or so to happen.

I'll have to tell my brother. He makes far less than many of his employees. Terrible success story.
He'll get a good laugh from this.

[lonestarnot]

57. Why do you keep running back to "your" my employment. I stated

that I was not referencing "my" employment. Now running to your brother's business practices. And laughing can add eight years to your life, so tell him he's quite welcome! :hi: That is free to you and on me! :hi:

[sandnsea]

59. Exactly. Because it's the LAW

Which is what I said. You wouldn't even support paying that if it weren't the LAW.

Oh, and the Dow has nothing to do with nothing and the employee making more than the boss line has been around FOREVER and it is no more true today than it was when FDR first decided to fight for workers' rights.

Ohio. Classic. I always love when right wing states that are in poverty lecture to the rest of us about how to operate an economy. :crazy:

[Ikonoklast]

69. If it wasn't the LAW, no, I wouldn't pay it. No one would.

And, if paying taxes wasn't the LAW, I wouldn't pay them, either...and neither would you. That's not an argument. That's a logical fallacy.

Ohio is no more right wing than any other state, and I'll take the average income versus cost of living for Ohio over almost every other state in the Union, thank you. Check a few facts.

And I love how those that never ran their own business go around telling those of us who do how it should be done.

Classic.

[sandnsea]

72. LOL. That's the point of the OP

Workers have rights and need to be protected because employers will use them up and spit them out without a care in the world.

And while you're pretending nobody would treat their employees right if it weren't for the law, take another look at Costco.

And I've run businesses, thank you very much, and gladly paid benefits. If I can't treat my employees right, I don't need to be in business. I don't need to contribute to the undermining of the economy through cheap labor conservative policies.

[Ikonoklast]

75. I have friends that work for Costco.

I had better pay, benefits, and medical than they did, because Costco hired them in at a lower tier pay and benefit scale BECAUSE THEY COULD.

They could pay more if they wanted to, but, waddaya know, they don't.

They didn't pay their employees one cent more than they had to. I know. I've seen the contract.

Compared to the other grocery chains, Costco comes up short. The only place they beat in wages in a comparable business setting is Walmart.

Nothing much to brag about.

[sandnsea]

79. That's just not even true

Costco is consistently rated the #1 retailer to work for because of their salary and benefits, they get beaten up by their shareholders because of it. You're definitely just making it all up as you go. See ya'.

[Ikonoklast]

94. #1 of the 'buying clubs', like Sam's and BJ's

No where near #1 in pay in the retail grocery trade. Not even close.

Check your facts. When I left retail grocery over ten years ago I was making over twenty dollars an hour. People doing the exact same job today at Costco are making fifteen, with less benefits.

Condescension doesn't cover the reality of the situation, no matter how much you care to make it so.

Or just keep up the magical thinking.

[lonestarnot]

98. You are disclosing a bit much about your true intentions here favoring Sams over Costco

:thumbsdown:

[Ikonoklast]

100. And your reading comprehension sucks

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

Please re-read the post.

[lonestarnot]

102. "#1 of the 'buying clubs', like Sam's and BJ's" Ned and the First Reader!

[Naturyl]

93. Whoa... lol...

So you're openly admitting you feel zero sense of social obligation and would do nothing to give back to the society that enables you to conduct business in the first place if you could get away with it?

Seriously, I've read all your posts so far, and I'm wondering why in the world you are on a progressive message board. Can you explain briefly what causes you to identify as a Democrat? I have yet to see it.

Social issues, maybe?

[Ikonoklast]

96. Would you pay income taxes if you didn't have to?

Please.

I'm sure out of the goodness of your heart, you'd figure out a fair amount and send it in, even if the government didn't require you to.

I have about the same sense of obligation towards the government that you do. I do what is required of me, but I sure as hell don't volunteer any more than I need to.

Nor does any citizen in this country, including you.

I give my time and money to those organizations that directly do the most good. Sorry to say, it isn't the federal government of this country.

And, in the same vein, do you shop at a union grocery store? Or do you go wherever you can get the best price? Do you support union stores, and a living wage, or support scabs, low wages, and the destruction of organized labor?

Two can play the holier-than-thou game.

[lonestarnot]

99. You are part of the reason America is going into the trash. Selfishness and greed.

And you admit it.

[Ikonoklast]

109. Yeah. I'm the cause of everything that's wrong

I'd rather whine on a message board about the terms and conditions of my employment than approach my employer and try to change things.
I'd rather wallow in self-pity than talk to my fellow employees and try to negotiate better working conditions from management.
I'd rather blame a complete stranger on a message board for all the ills that beset the nation, well, because it's easy and I can hide behind a keyboard.

I admit that without the sacrifices small business owners make to stay solvent, there would be millions of Americans unemployed and wondering where their next paycheck is coming from.


Have a nice life. Hope you get what you want.

[Naturyl]

114. Whoops, "self-pity" - there's another favorite! (n/t)

[Naturyl]

103. LOL... don't tell me what I would or wouldn't do, bub.

That game may work with the less spinally-endowed, but I don't let anybody play that with me. As a business owner and "boss," you might be used to bullying people verbally and intellectually. But I am not your employee or anyone else's, so you can take your ideas about what I would do and transcribe them on a roll of Charmin.

I see taxation precisely the way I see charity. And despite being quite poor, I manage to donate what little I can to charity when the opportunity presents itself. If taxes didn't exist, I'd just devote a larger portion of my resources to that.

I have about the same sense of obligation towards the government that you do.

Wrong, lol. Despite not being among those this country and this society has rewarded significantly in terms of ability and opportunity (unlike you), I feel a strong obligation to contribute in appropriate ways to the collective good. You, in contrast, most likely are experiencing some stomach-churning just by reading words like "collective good."

And if you don't like that assumption, don't invite it by making assumptions of your own.

[lonestarnot]

116. Oh shit!

I hope he sees this beautiful post!

[Naturyl]

118. It won't have any impact on him.

I always write for the audience, never for the opponent. Minds are rarely changed in debate. But those "on the fence" who are watching may benefit.

[lonestarnot]

119. Guess you are right.

:( I really do not understand why he's here.

[Ikonoklast]

120. I assume nothing

Define 'collective good'.

If an ongoing concern decides that every employee should get whatever they want, or need, but the business fails as a result throwing everyone out on the street, what 'good' has come of it?

There is a balance that needs to be struck between the needs of management, and the wants of labor. Neither should have all the pieces of the pie; without employess a business fails, without a business creating profit there is no payroll.

Many here have completely missed the point, including you. If you want something from your employer, you negotiate for it. If you don't get it, go to work for someone that will. Simple. Easy.

And the biggest problem I have with the government right now is that most of my tax money, and yours, is going to a war machine killing innocents.

Not fixing roads. Not feeding people. Not curing cancer.

Murdering civilians in a far-off land.

And we are complicit in that very act, just by paying taxes.

[Naturyl]

123. No, I won't define "collective good" for you.

As an alleged Democrat, you ought to have an understanding of that concept without having to ask me.

As for a equitable balance between management and labor, that's what unions exist to ensure, because employers will most certainly never provide it voluntarily. So, with that in mind, I sincerely hope your business becomes successful enough for your own labor to organize. On that day, I suspect, your idea of "balance" will change significantly.

I won't be negotiating with my employer anytime soon, because I don't have one. This issue does not affect me personally in any manner. Nonetheless, I will continue to speak up for workers wherever and whenever their well-being is threatened by the lassiez-faire mentality that enables American business owners to declare in all seriousness that 7 paid sick days per year is excessive or unrealistic.

As for your implicit admission that you are essentially a single-issue anti-war Democrat, I'd imagine that after your performance in this thread, it will come as a shock to no one.

Quick question: Have you checked out Ron Paul?

[Ikonoklast]

128. Sorry, you don't get to define me as a Democrat

Good thing that, too.

You voted for Reagan, though, didn't you?

Two can play childish games.


And if the original poster, and you, would take time to actually read what I have posted, no employer gives their employees anything. It is bargained for, or simply, you ain't getting it.

And, if you don't get it, then either accept what you have, or move on to greener pastures.

Easy.

And, if any employee of mine ever decides to organize, I'd be a bit surprised. The union shops in my area pay less than I do.

As do many union shope these days.

They'd be taking a cut in pay.

[Naturyl]

133. "you don't get to define me as a Democrat"

Glad to hear it - because I wouldn't.

Opposing the Iraq War does not a Democrat make. Even Ron Paul and his libertarian movement (which you really might find to your liking) do that. We have an entire platform, and one is expected to agree with at least a large chunk of it. Perhaps you do - but when it comes to economics, it certainly isn't showing. Democrats generally don't use terms like "whiny losers" and "self-pity" in this context.

As for employee bargaining, I would hope your employees are particularly good at it, because given your expressed attitude, they'd better bring their A-game and some metaphorical brass knuckles for good measure. Unsurprisingly, since you insist on defining employer-employee relationships in terms of unequivocal opposition, my sympathies are with them and not with you.

I'd also hope, for the sake of your own bottom line, that your turnover rate is less than I'd imagine it to be. "If you don't get it, then either accept what you have, or move on to greener pastures" is not exactly the most inspiring employee-retention strategy I've ever heard, lol.

[lonestarnot]

182. So become a conscientious tax objector and keep ALL of your pie. LOL

Oh what now, no conscience?

[kdmorris]

181. Wow, that is really beautiful, Naturyl

You are right that it won't change his/her mind, but...it was still worth the read :D

[romulusnr]

220. goose and gander

2. Find other employment

by that same rationale, you could too. or find another business model.

[davekriss]

112. Better yet...

...organize your fellow workers and STRIKE.

[BlooInBloo]

150. You sound like the sort of person whose employees would only be people with no other choice.

[Orangepeel]

31. their employees should teach them a lesson by all quitting and getting other jobs.

There aren't enough other jobs? Well, all those small businesses going under will sure help that.

I do think that everyone should have a reasonable number of paid sick days, but I'm sympathetic to small business owners who can't afford to do that. Being a small business owner is very hard and very risky. Small businesses are also very important to the economy.

[lonestarnot]

38. 7 paid days per year is not reasonable? WTF

:wtf:

[Orangepeel]

47. you misunderstood me. n/t

[lonestarnot]

50. sorry.

[treestar]

32. Then only the huge corporations should be employers

No one should ever get a chance to start a new business to compete with them. We can just all be dependent upon them, then when they outsource, well, too bad. There is nothing we can do for ourselves.

This is shortsighted. You're inadvertantly allowing that the huge corporations should get to make slaves of us all.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lex]

34. One of my friends let 2 of his employees go because his business

was falling off in this economy and he couldn't afford them anymore. It was really a gut-wrenching decision and he didn't want to do it. I think they would've been thrilled to stay employed with less benefits, but my friend didn't think that was fair to them to slash their benefits.

Sad situation really.

[lonestarnot]

41. Yes very sad. Insurance costs alone are costs that we can do something about.

Cut the insurance scam with single payer!

[SOS]

68. Check this out:

Germany is the #1 exporter in the world, ahead of China and the US.
No tuition for college.
Nursing homes are also without charge.
Universal health care for all citizens. No doctor, hospital or drug bills ever.
On an hourly basis, the German worker is more productive, but works fewer hours per week.
Average non-managerial worker wage is western Germany is $44 an hour, in the former East Germany it is $27 an hour.
Workers start with three weeks paid vacation with a max of six weeks later in your work career.
Women receive three years maternity leave, with 14 weeks paid.
Average work week is 37.5 hours.

It's amazing that European countries are able to do all this, but here we get $8 bucks an hour, no benefits and are told to be grateful.

[lonestarnot]

86. We suck ass!

[Naturyl]

90. Not possible in America! Not possible!

Can't happen! Different world! Fingers in ears! Nanny-nanny-la-la-la, can't hear you!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

202. Shouldn't you be dismissing this poster's friend as being "greedy"?

Just trying to help keep your indignation gimmick up........

[sandnsea]

44. That's why FDR insisted minimum wage be law

Because there will always be somebody desperate enough to work for less and the downward spiral is bad for everybody. It doesn't work. If everybody were required to provide full benefits, then all employers would be on the same playing field. That's the real problem with NAFTA, the labor and environmental standards weren't written into it because US Corporations didn't want them in there.

[lonestarnot]

46. Corporate control of small business makes the competition even stiffer.

Yes indeed NAFTA needs an overhaul with some union protections for workers, even in small business.

[On the Road]

40. You Know, Occasionally the Federal Government

occasionally stumbles on a decent approach. In business regulation, exemptions are usually made for the smallest employers. A large percentage of small employers are poor. If they get successful enough to build their staff up, they are better able to afford to follow more stringent guidelines.

[lonestarnot]

42. And what would the time period be for "build-up?"

[On the Road]

51. There is No "Period of Time"

It varies by regulation, but generally relates to the number of employees.

You know, I actually don't object to the idea of introducing federal guidelines for all workers a la the family medical leave act and minimum wage. I believe it is a better approach to benefit all workers than greater unionization.

However, if you're going to promote a beneficial policy, you need to learn a little more about conditions on the ground.

[lonestarnot]

54. I very well aware of conditions on the ground thank you. Your attempt at marginalization of

my opinion due to my lack of, in your implication, knowledge, is an assumption made by the big "I" little "you" noise. Greater unionization is one of the answers IMO, as unions DO benefit all workers, even scabs in my right to work state.

[On the Road]

124. Continue Your Efforts, Then

Good luck fighting the dastardly nail salons, carpet cleaners and convenience stores.

[jakem]

52. Please try running business before running off your mouth.

small business aint easy.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jakem]

63. i have a small business. what do you know about it?

when i have had employees, they made more money than I did at the time.

waaah! i want free money for doing my job... poor freaking baby.



take it up with walmart. small business is not your enemy.

[lonestarnot]

87. Attention walmart shopper, we were talking about 7 days of s/l. 7 (seven)

Another bootstrapper slave labor endorser.

[Dreamer Tatum]

127. I am now convicned that you are either actually 15 years old, or you wish you were

"freak?"


Here is the difference between a small business owner and an employee:

A small business owner bears all residual risk. An employee, by contrast, goes home and watches television.

[lonestarnot]

163. And your insult is supposed to do what?

Sounds as though you think you would make a real great manager. :rofl: Your treatment of employees would get you exactly what you deserve, no loyalty, bad morale, and failure so have fun with your "risk." And I hope all of your employees come to work with the shitting virus. You may want to incorporate. Snort. :rofl:

[jakem]

136. WATB.

[lonestarnot]

165. Nice communication there. Did the wall get it?

[readmoreoften]

166. Ran one for years. No one has the "right" to own a business. If you can't pay your employees

then your business has no right to survive under any economic model. It's a hobby, not a business.

[DaveJ]

61. I think you're right...

A few people have indicated that small businesses are important to the economy.

But I think they fail to realize the caveat that it's 'successful' small businesses that are good for the economy.

As you said, if their employees aren't successful, then the business is not successful.

[jakem]

64. plenty of successful small businesses have small margins.

'successful' means being self employed for most small business owners.

there is not a lot of free money floating around these days.

[DaveJ]

66. Well this is just our area of disagreement

I don't think it's especially good for the economy if every business owner thought that only he deserves to make a decent amount of money.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it is just something we may have to agree to disagree on.

Before you ask, no I have never started a business for precisely that reason. I do not want to be responsible for placing people in low paying jobs. But, I am trying to design a business that can be profitable. Once my product and business model has matured, then I'll deploy it, but not before I am ready.

[lonestarnot]

92. And, do you pay your bills when you have to stay home sick, or do you just let them slide?

[jakem]

121. if i dont work, i dont get paid.

[lonestarnot]

183. Sounds like you better not ever get sick.

Single payer opinion?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. Huh, I've run across LARGE employers who don't give sick leave

The things you learn riding the bus: Back when I was still in Portland, a woman wearing the uniform of a major regional convenience store practically crawled onto the bus I was riding. She was evidently a regular, because the bus driver greeted her by name and said, "You don't look so good. Are you sure you should go to work?"

"I spent the weekend in the hospital with pneumonia," she explained, "but I checked myself out this morning because I'll lose my job if I miss a day."

The driver mumbled something about sick leave, which as a union employee, she most certainly had.

"No sick leave here," the store clerk shrugged. "Our boss says the chain can't afford benefits."

This was a chain that seemed to be at every major intersection in every town in Oregon, and they couldn't pay sick leave?

There's also a major restaurant chain that doesn't provide health insurance, because they claim that each employee generates only $900 in profit per year. Nine hundred? Then why bother having employees? Why bother being in business at all? Methinks some bean counter was playing fast and loose with the numbers there.

[superduperfarleft]

65. This clearly cannot be related to your own employment.

Otherwise, you wouldn't be posting drunk on a Sunday afternoon.

[lonestarnot]

89. Saturday Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday. You are posting

on the wrong site. And I also find it amusing that you would reference alcohol when we're trying to discuss 7 days out of 365 for use when an employee is fucking to sick to come in, and if you could read, you would have seen I was not talking about my employment.

[superduperfarleft]

151. What?

Seriously, you're barely coherent.

[Naturyl]

95. "Superduperfarleft" eh?

Nice name.

Be MOAR obvious, pl0x.

[lonestarnot]

105. We could clean some house on this thread alone.

Mods are prollee paying attention. :)

[lonestarnot]

107. Funny how pocket book talk brings them out in hoards!

:rofl:

[Naturyl]

108. If you hit them where it actually hurts, they can't help themselves. (n/t)

[superduperfarleft]

153. OMG U TOTALLY FOUND ME OUT!!!!11

Typical of the semi-literate center-right "leftists" on this site that I get called a freeper (in a roundabout way) because I have an issue with barely coherent screeching from some internet tough guy like the OP. And typical that the snark of my username makes you automatically assume that if I'm not a Democrat, I have to be a right-wing extremist.

Tell you what: get a passport, visit the rest of the world, and maybe then you'll get why I have to mock the so-called "leftists" like yourself, and also have to apologize to non-murikans for the behavior of my fellow citizens. Idiot.

[Naturyl]

156. Hehe, wow. So much anger...

Goooood, gooooooood! Use your anger. It gives you focus. Makes you stronger!



As for your actual comments, almost every one was comically off the mark - but since I'm not going to convince you of that, have a good one. :)

[lonestarnot]

170. I don't have a problem saying it to your post face. Inherent tough guy my ass.

You better look the word up, as I learned to be this way living in a world with people like you. You are a tightwad, selfish penny pincher as is revealed in you opposition to give a working person seven days per annum s/l, and that is an inherent quality of the right, not the left. How much are you being paid to be here. Would you like an apple pie with that? Idiot indeed.

[snooper2]

214. Internet tought guy, not Inherent...

you sure you were not drinking? :rofl:

[FloridaJudy]

67. A local pizza joint

Pays $11 an hour to start, and has a policy of tip and profit sharing. After six months, employees get paid vacation and sick time. They haven't yet found a way to provide health insurance, but they have a sick pool that pays for all but extraordinary medical expenses.

They should be going broke, no? They're doing fantastic! They've expanded twice, and the lines still spill out the door. They provide a tasty product, a memorable atmosphere and courteous service.

Sure, businesses that are just getting off the ground have to scrimp - when you've only got three employees and the boss works 60 to 80 hours a week. But once you're established, you'd damned well better treat those employees right. Profit sharing should be only a start: people who have a vested interest in your success will likely knock themselves out for you. And when word gets around that you're a generous employer, not only will you attract the best workers in town, but the public will support you more than they would Joe Cut Throat.

I'm sure the owners of Satchel's Pizza aren't living quite as high on the hog as the Walton family. So what's their problem?

[sandnsea]

74. That's the way it used to be

The biggest difference in the economy I see is the spread between the business owner and the worker. I don't remember local business owners thinking they were supposed to retire with a summer home and a winter home back 50 years ago. Now they think they're supposed to have all that and 5 cars in the garage too. And if their employees have to be on food stamps while they get it, it's because their employees are bad money managers. Good for Satchel's Pizza.

[Selatius]

138. It's gonna get to the point where the gov't is going to make employers do things they once did.

The gov't would do it by mandating certain concessions to workers as opposed to simply leaving it to private enterprise to do something, which is increasingly "nothing."

[Naturyl]

198. It's gonna be just as much "nothing" as they can get away with.

The business apologists on this thread are right about one thing - it's human nature for most business owners to give employees only what they are forced to give them. It is generally only people who are comfortable with this fact who even go into business to begin with - which is one reason some of us never do.

What these same apologists won't tell you (because they don't want you to know) is that it isn't up to employees alone to force concessions from their employers. That is one of the things we are supposed to have a government for. But they hate this fact because government does it a lot more effectively than employees ever could - so they created the Reagan Revolution to destroy the idea of government oversight and regulation forever.

And they almost succeeded... but not quite. :)

[lonestarnot]

91. They sound like decent people paying fairly. I would order pizza from them too!

:P :hug:

[donco6]

71. We wouldn't keep anyone without some paid vacation.

And it's really tiring and expensive to train new people.

But we hire enough people for others to cover each other. I don't know how Mom and Pop places do it.

[mdmc]

77. I disagree

you do what you have to do to live.
Sometimes ends just can't be met.

[lonestarnot]

113. And so your employees would not have that right, to live I mean?

[mdmc]

200. They can live the life they want to live

They can work for me on a shoestring or I can help them find another job. Sometimes ya just can't afford to be as generous as you would like to be.

[Ex Lurker]

82. Or I can just work a couple of extra hours a week myself and

not hire anybody. How about that?

[lonestarnot]

88. You do that. I can see these 7 days paid to someone else would just kill your soul.

So work 'em.

[Naturyl]

84. Wow, so many RW talking points in this thread... (n/t)

[lonestarnot]

85. No shit.

:(

[tavalon]

110. How did you get so many replies without getting any recs

I just gave the first.

[lonestarnot]

117. Thread got filled up with the greedy manager types I guess.

They're attracted to money like bees to honey, if we had any bees left :P

[AZ Criminal JD]

122. You should change your name to 'lonestarnut'

Much more appropriate.

[Naturyl]

129. No argument, just a juvenile smear against another DU'er?

Well just in case lonestar (perhaps wisely) declines to acknowledge it, then I'll be your huckleberry.

Why exactly is he or she a "nut?" Let's hear the nuttiness explained.

[TahitiNut]

135. And it'd be a badge of honor, too.

:eyes:

Got a problem with that?

[lonestarnot]

142. LOL

:highfive:

[TahitiNut]

You're an honorary nut to me, luv!

:hi:

You're in good company with 1plain1peanut, AcadamiaNut, aquanut, B3Nut, blackwalnut, bobbonutrino, bozosleftnut, bulugnut, BUSHISNUTS, butternut, butternutty, buttnutt, Canadiangunnut, Carnut, CarNutAtl, CA_liberal_nut, Chanute, Coconut Buddha Ape, coconut55, CoconutMonkey, coconut_oil, conspiracy-nut, darlademnut, deeznuts, DemNutz, democratinutah, deznuts, deznutts, donut, donut33, donutrevolutionary, Donuts, donutwant, econut, elvisthenut, fleabitpeanutmonkey, fluffernutter, fordnut, FruityNuts, fuzzlenutz, gaygunnut, GnomesLeftNut, grapenut1998, graphixnut, gunnut12345, HangingSaddamByHisNutsack, hazelnut, HealthNut, Historynut, Jacknut, jakenuts, JaneDoughnut, JustFiveMoreMinutes, just_anuther_gurl, KnuteThingrich, KNUTSY, konominut, leftnut22, leftrightwingnut, leftwingnut, LeftyWingNut, Lefty_WingNut, Lela McNutt, Letters From A Nut, liberalgunnut, LiberalInUtah, lilpnut, Lonenut23, lonenutcracker, loosenut, Lugnut, MACanuto, madminute, MilsurpNut, Minuteman, Minutes, monkeynuts6969, monolithic_juggernut, Mr Peanut, Mr. Peanut, mrpeanut, my15minutes, NONnutcase, NoToCubanRepubnuts, nsaixphnutex, numinut, Nut Grinderswitch, Nutboy, nutcase, nutcracker420, nutcrakcer, nutgrass, nuthatch, nuthead2ub, Nutkinnews, Nutmeg, NutMeg021576, nutmeg08, Nutmeg1576, Nutmeg61, Nutmegger, NutmegJenny, NutmegYankee, nutmeg_express, Nutniks, nuton2wheels, nutone, nutria, Nutrino, NutritionFacts, Nuts, nuts101, nutsco101, nutshell2002, nutsnbolts, NutterFluffer, NuttinBut, nutty left, NuttyFluffers, nuttywoody, nututhissite, oaknut, omgiamgoingnuts, Opera Nut, ornanut, paolonutuni, peanut, Peanut Gallery, peanut3729, peanut57, peanutbrittle, PeanutButter, Peanutcat, PeanutGallery, PeanutOne, peanutz, Permanut, pnutbutr, pnutchuck, pnutfarmer, PoliSciNut, PolitiNut, PublicHealthNut, publichealthnut1, pucknut, Racenut20, reichwingnut, somenut, soulforpeanuts, soulforpeanutz, Soynut, spacenut, Spudnuts, superbeachnut, TahitiNut, the wingnuttiest, tofunut, twominuteshate, undamynutz, Unuttymuh, videonut, walnutpie, weenut1, Wingnut19, Wingnutblogger, Wingnutsawry, wwwalnut, and yoganut.

:evilgrin:

[lonestarnot]

168. OMG!

I'm truly honored! :applause: :evilgrin: :smoke:

[lonestarnot]

140. and you need to stop smearing lib with your presence in name only.

[tavalon]

162. True dat!

:hi:

[lonestarnot]

169. Heh. We need a broom!

And not one I can fly off on, but I'd like one of those too! :P :hi:

[Fumesucker]

131. I agree completely..

Better to have no job at all than one without all the perks and bennies.

I'd rather starve.

[lonestarnot]

184. That was so well thought out. Big perk and bennie that 7 days of sick leave for the entire year.

:eyes:

[Fumesucker]

195. At some point I may have had a job with formal sick days..

But I honestly can't remember when.

I've never been fired for taking a day off from being sick and, when I wasn't a business owner myself, I've always worked for small business.

Place the bar to small business ownership high enough and you will manage to get rid of most of the small businesses around.

Is that your aim?

You really ought to have your sarcasmometer recalibrated.

[classiclib4life]

132. yes

Why don't we just force small businesses to sell out to major corporations while were at it. Since theres no way to survive in a market giving that kind of worker benifits if you're a small business.

Hell we should just make small businesses illegal.

[Naturyl]

134. Wow, the woodwork is giving up all its resdients tonight... lol (n/t)

[lonestarnot]

144. It's the purse thing. Didn't I tell you. Greedy frick'n freaks.

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[classiclib4life]

148. Well that was sure mature...

not.

[lonestarnot]

152. Thank you, and you don't make my living.

[BlooInBloo]

147. Welcome to DU! I hope you enjoy your visit!

[lonestarnot]

158. Wonder what they get out of that?

:rofl:

[rasputin1952]

176. Welcome to DU classiclib4life....

:hi:

[Hobarticus]

191. Hey, welcome to DU!

[cabbage08]

203. Welcome to DU

[RB TexLa]

139. I am my only employee and I don't take sick days.

[lonestarnot]

141. LOL! Good RGB!

Hope you never get sick and we get single payer before you do, if you do.

[Bonobo]

167. Me too. OP is a frustrated wage slave is my guess.

Try making your own money and see how easy it is to not have someone ELSE write you a paycheck.

[lonestarnot]

171. Do you go through life simply guessing, emphasis on simple?

[Bonobo]

172. It's worked pretty well so far. Why not?

[lonestarnot]

173. And how do you change up on your strategy when you're wrong, just guess again?

Whatever works for you I guess, emphasis on you, something with which I am sure you are familiar.

[Bonobo]

174. Sure, Guess again. Odds are even better the 2nd time!

[lonestarnot]

175. Oh sure :rofl: When possibilities are infinite.

:rofl:

[Naturyl]

199. Making his or her "own money?"

Wow, that's one lousy attitude you've got there. Employees don't make their own money?

Au contraire, mon frere. They make their own money AND yours. That's the definition of "profit" - or didn't you know?

Hoo boy...

[uppityperson]

196. I am my own employee and don't get any paid days off

If I don't work, I don't make any money. If I get sick, I can't go to work and have no income. I really hate it when people who are sick come to my office and infect me because then I have to take time off until I am not infectious and have no income. No paid vacation days or holidays or any of that fine stuff either. While I canplan ahead for vacation, it's difficult to plan ahead for sick days. I guess if I was doing it right, I'd have enough income to put some away to pull out of for sick days, but esp with the economy going bad, find that difficult. And yes, I can see the hypocrisy in beng on vacation (unpaid) while complaing about not having money.

[TankLV]

146. If you can't afford to pay your employees properly, you shouldn't have any until you are ready...

That's what I did...

It's really very simple...

That what most honerable people do...

[Naturyl]

154. Exactly.

If you can't treat employees well AND turn a decent profit, don't go into business. This should be obvious to any so-called Democrat. Leave the other kind of business to conservatives, who only care about meeting one of those two criteria.

Unless, of course, your primary motivation for any action or position is strictly financial, and the rest is just justifications and rationalizations. In that case, get out of my sight, if not my party.

[lonestarnot]

155. Excellent! And you don't make your riches off another's back!

unless you compensate them for their back and they are willing to part with it for a sum appropriate to a measure of back. I love honorable people! :yourock: :applause:

[rucky]

149. This is a strange and caustic argument.

We try to do right by our employees. One of the biggest benefits of working for a small business is that if a situation comes up, there's some flexibility there. If someone's sick and can't come in, they don't work. We haven't had a situation yet where someone's been sick 7 days (I'm not sure how you got that number, btw - I worked a union job that offered 5), but if there were, we'd work with them. When times are good, we share the wealth. When times are bad, we all pull together. The labor-management thing doesn't have to have the drama you're imagining. Small businesses are made of people, not policies - and as long as everybody realizes that and treats each other accordingly, I don't see how 7 is somehow a magic number that shows the respect workers deserve.

[lonestarnot]

157. Just a number as in a week. Not a magic number, but a fair number.

A number that indicates you won't be punished should you get the flu and need a couple days off. You seem very fair in your evaluation, but as you can see from this thread, if it is not policy, law, small businesses are not inclined to make it happen.

[A HERETIC I AM]

185. So by not being paid for staying home sick, you're being punished?

Is that it?

Paid sick leave is a fringe benefit that not all companies can afford to give, just like they can't afford any number of other fringe benefits. The fact that this simple concept escapes you is amazing. Not every small business has a massive profit margin. Just because someone owns a business, does not mean they can afford to provide benefits beyond their ability to pay.


I've worked for small companies of less than 5 employees, owner included and I've worked for Corporations with 25,000. Not one of them ever "punished" me for taking the day off because I was sick. As long as I called in early enough, it has never, EVER been a problem. Some of those companies had paid sick days, most did not. If having paid sick time was that important to me, there were always other companies I could apply to and get hired on. Sometimes the wages are better at a place with fewer fringe benefits simply because they can afford higher wages. Which would you rather? $15.00/hr with 7 paid sick days or $16.00 an hour with no pay for those 7 sick days? You do the math. Here's a hint; no matter how you calculate it, the $16.00/hr is a better deal.

What about a business that has a position that is only four or five hours a day? Should that employee be paid to stay at home when they are sick if what they do is only needed from 7:00 am to noon?

[lonestarnot]

186. No not being punished, pinched.

If someone is working for $15 or $16/ hour and has to miss a day because they are too sick to go to work and they have a family to feed, someone may have to do without for the lack of the $128.00 less the tax which was budgeted for groceries, which as we all know are on the rise. Yes part-time should be included.

[A HERETIC I AM]

193. You said "punished" and you didn't answer my question.

Which would you rather have:

A 40/hr per week job that paid $15.00 per hour and provided for 7 paid sick days

- OR -

A 40/hr per week job that paid $16.00 per hour but did not pay for sick days?

Let me help you with the math, since you obviously didn't do it.

40 hours per week X 52 weeks in a year = 2080 hours.

2080 X 15 = $31,200
2080 X 16 = $33,280

A difference of $2,080.00

Value of 7 - 8 hour days @ $15.00/hr = 56 X 15 = $840.00 (amount of the benefit)
Value of 7 - 8 hour days @ $16.00/hr = 56 X 16 = $896.00 (loss of wages to the employee)


Your example makes no economic sense because the $16.00/hr job STILL PAYS $1,184.00 per year MORE even if the worker takes 7 sick days and gets no pay. Who gives a shit about the $128.00?

So, which would you rather have?

Are you willing to take an almost twelve hundred dollar cut in pay just so you can stick to your guns?

If so, good on ya.


Edited for clarity

[lonestarnot]

215. I think the seven days per year should be extended no matter the rate of pay, so

why would I accept a lower rate of pay in your hypothetical. All that math for nothing or for what, to show me you can multiply an hourly rate of pay. :shrug:

[A HERETIC I AM]

218. I see.

You are incapable of getting a point.

I understand now.

I told you that there are many instances where a given company in a similar business might offer less benefits but pay higher wages than the company down the street. The question was absolutely pertinent to the original post. You dodged.

Nicely done.


Here's a tip.

You actually CAN NOT have your cake and eat it too.

Sorry.

[DeSwiss]

187. Small business owner here (raises hand)....

...and I don't "pay" my employees 7 paid sick leave days per year, but they do "earn" 12 sick leave days per year. I've got 4 employees and they receive one day for each month of employment, and its a part of our written personnel policy (yes, even small businesses need to have a written personnel policy). I will have been in business for 20 years come June 26, 2009.

Having been an employee before myself, I don't see what I do as that special, although I realize I'm one of the few in my neck o' the woods who do this.

I'm only doing what is fair and treating them the way that I'd want to be treated....

[Hobarticus]

188. Which is actually a very common policy...

...and certainly reasonable and fair. Good on ya!

[magellan]

190. Not only that

...but all vacation and full taxes. Our business is overseas and usually the employee pays a small part of taxes owed the gov't, but we agreed to pay 100% for our site manager. When she's sick or needs time off, she lets us know, even that day, and she's got it. She doesn't abuse it at all. She's a good friend and also very loyal to our business. She makes more than we do. The rest of our employees are subcontracted and basically their own bosses, they just let us know when they won't be around. We only pay for what work they do.

We take enough from the business to get by. We do not live in luxury. We could be more rigid and wealthy but this style works for us, feels right, and our business is stable because of it.

[Lyric]

194. I'd go so far as to say that if you can't afford to pay a Living Wage

then you also don't belong in business. All these excuses about how "Teenagers working part-time don't NEED a living wage!" are just that--excuses. If you pay all of your employees (including adults with families) a sum that only a part-time teenager living at home could survive on, then you're an unscrupulous ass who doesn't deserve to own a business.

Just my somewhat-controversial opinion. :hi:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

204. I've worked for the state and some big retail and security corporations......

....and never had paid sick days......

Clearly, you pick on the wrong people to start with.

[lukasahero]

206. No kidding, huh?

Big corporations have discovered the monetary benefits of hiring contractors, temporary and part-time workers for whom they do not have to provide insurance, sick days, retirement options, etc. but hey, let's blame the small business owner instead of going after the real criminals in the downfall of our economy: corporate pirates.

It's the fundamental strategy of class warfare: keep the lower income classes arguing amongst themselves and they won't even notice the robber barons cleaning the coffers and filling their pockets. DUers seem particularly vulnerable to falling for the ploy.

[Morning Dew]

208. Paging Marley's ghost, paging Marley's ghost . . .

“You’ll want all day tomorrow, I suppose?” said Scrooge.

“If quite convenient, sir.”

“It’s not convenient,” said Scrooge, “and it’s not fair. If I was to stop half a crown for it, you’d think yourself ill used, I’ll be bound?”

The clerk smiled faintly.

“And yet,” said Scrooge, “you don’t think ME ill used when I pay a day’s wages for no work.”

The clerk observed that it was only once a year.

“A poor excuse for picking a man’s pocket every twenty-fifth of December!” said Scrooge, buttoning his greatcoat to the chin. “But I suppose you must have the whole day. Be here all the earlier the next morning.”


Lonestarnot, you brought out the Scrooges in hordes !!

[barbtries]

209. what are sl days?

[Egalitariat]

211. Why don't you, lonestarnot, pay them when they're not working?

It's pretty arbitrary to say the business owner should pay them on days that they're not creating value for the business.

You could do the same thing with your money instead of arbitrarily telling someone else what to do with theirs.

[FatDave]

212. There are always exceptions to these rules for the truly *small* business.

Minimum wage laws, for example, don't apply if your company has fewer than n employees. I forget what n is, but it's somewhere between 7 and 14.

The "these laws hurt small business" meme is right-wing bullshit.

[cherokeeprogressive]

213. Weren't you the person who berated the UPS employee for doing their job?

Methinks your empathy for lowly employees only goes so far...

[superduperfarleft]

217. I remember that also.

Methinks it has less to do with empathy, and more do with this person being a few beers short of a six-pack.