God vs. doctor: 1 in 2 say prayer saves the dying (terminally ill/injured)

[underpants]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26272687/

20 percent of docs also say God can reverse terminal prognosis, study finds


An eye-opening survey reveals widespread belief that divine intervention can revive dying patients. And, researchers said, doctors "need to be prepared to deal with families who are waiting for a miracle."

More than half of randomly surveyed adults — 57 percent — said God's intervention could save a family member even if physicians declared treatment would be futile. And nearly three-quarters said patients have a right to demand such treatment.

"Sensitivity to this belief will promote development of a trusting relationship" with patients and their families, according to researchers. That trust, they said, is needed to help doctors explain objective, overwhelming scientific evidence showing that continued treatment would be worthless.

It involved 1,000 U.S. adults randomly selected to answer questions by telephone about their views on end-of-life medical care. They were surveyed in 2005, along with 774 doctors, nurses and other medical workers who responded to mailed questions.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

1. but do they also admit

that God could NOT allow the person to survive despite a high chance of success of a given treatment? i mean, if He can do one, surely he could do the other...

so, if there is a God, let Him/Her act the way He/She will and do the best you can...

sP

[billyoc]

2. Coincidentally, 1 in 2 can't see a doctor anyway, so it's God or nothing for them.

[EV_Ares]

13. Yeah, lets hope he/she doesn't start requiring health insurance, eom.

[bigscott]

3. great

go ahead and pray.

But whose fault will it be when your loved ones die? I doubt you will blame your God, more likely these people will sue their doctor for malpractice

[newfie11]

4. When I worked in a hospital in N. Michigan

I remember a doctors office that could not be reached on the phone for 1 hour a day. They were in a prayer session for their patients.
I never knew if it helped or not but I do have friends who swear that it does.

[EV_Ares]

17. Well, I have no doubt that there are cases where it could. But first it has to be

someone deeply religious in their beliefs and I also think it depends on the circumstances of the illness. There are extenuating circumstances in all cases. I know too some people who make that claim and hey, if it works for them, it works but I think the ones who refuse any medical treatment and rely solely on prayer alone are doing themselves an injustice or unfortunately in some cases we have read about, their family members.

[Hokie]

5. I believe that rubbing my lucky penny heals foot rot

and I have just to much proof to back up my claim as do the prayer heals folks.

[EV_Ares]

6. When you are talking about God and religion, I would not say it is just the Christian god but in

all religions and so maybe I am off track here underpants as maybe the survey applied only to the Christian god. However, the mind is so powerful and for a deeply religious person, I have felt there are cases where it probably helps. Not being a deeply religious person it probably would not for me because I would not have the faith or belief. I can see where it could help. However, these people who refuse medicine and rely totally on faith, we have all seen where that can lead. It has to be the two together, faith and doctor assistance I would think.

[underpants]

9. It would seem that way but then we don't know what questions were asked

sure prayer could help-to ease the mind, to consume time and energy away from pain and doubt- so yeah it can help but heal?? I guess I was trained to think differently

[EV_Ares]

Same here. When I am talking about the power of the mind, I am talking for example

where an individual can be given a placebo in place of the real medication and it works. You have read how they test drugs sometimes and one group will get a placebo and the other group the drug and in some cases the placebo has as much or a better effect. That is the mind so a extremely religious person believing in a god could have the placebo effect in some cases. For me I would need the drug. Interesting post, thanks.

Remember that guy where the people would go up and he would put his hand on them and they would scream and throw away their crutches and run back down the aisle. I don't mean that kind of mind control. Not sure what that was.

[trotsky]

7. When God heals his first amputee, let me know. n/t

[Solly Mack]

8. and then there is this: Study: Prayer didn't help sick

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002901053_pray31.html

"Indeed, researchers at the Harvard Medical School and five other U.S. medical centers found, to their bewilderment, that coronary-bypass patients who knew strangers were praying for them fared significantly worse than people who got no prayers. The team speculated that telling patients about the prayers may have caused "performance anxiety," or perhaps a fear that doctors expected the worst.

"Obviously, my colleagues were surprised by the unexpected and counterintuitive outcome," said the Rev. Dean Marek, director of chaplain services at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a study co-investigator."

[fasttense]

10. Thanks, Solly Mack, I was looking for that study.

There are numerous studies that show prayer, absolutely, does not matter one way or the other. But those were blind studies where the person being prayed for, did not know.

[Solly Mack]

12. You're welcome!

[EV_Ares]

11. Hey, they need to talk to that cat that came around to the ones he knew

were going to die. Remember that, not too long ago.

[Solly Mack]

14. I remember that story.

[2KS2KHonda]

37. I thought it was passing strange when Oral Roberts, one of the original faith 'healers'

built a $multi-zillion hospital on the grounds of his "university." It didn't last long, in any case. ;-)

[Kazak]

15. God works about as well as any placebo, I reckon...

:shrug:

[baldguy]

16. Opinions are more important than evidence.

Isn't that the source of most of our problems?

[EV_Ares]

18. Does that fall along the line of "opinions are like ______ everyone has one? eom.

[baldguy]

20. Most people don't have an opinion on any particular subject

until they're handed one by their pastor, or by the man on the radio set or on the teevee.

[MadHound]

19. Placebos of all sorts can work medical wonders

It is nothing more than another example of how the brain can help in the healing of the body. Miracles can be performed irregardless of the delivery mechanism be it religious faith, sugar pills or belief in aliens in the atmosphere wielding technological healing rays. The human body is a cauldron of chemicals, drugs and mechanisms that can be mobilized to battle injuries and diseases. If belief in whatever helps in that mobilization process, all the better.

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. True. Faith, prayer, meditation, visualization. All good stuff. However, I would never

choose that approach over medical attention. Combine them, sure, but never just "hope" a disease or injury away.

[KG]

21. i'm beginning to think the percentage of americans that have

any kind of grip on reality is quite small.

[DRoseDARs]

22. If only the people who truly believe in the power of healing prayer would refuse medical care more

...we'd save SO MUCH in healthcare costs, not to mention the deep-scrub cleaning of the gene pool. As a person of faith, it disgusts me that so many of my fellow theists are weak-minded worshipers that can't accept the fact the God gave us the ability to help ourselves and that we don't need to be constantly coddled by God. Such people never grew up or their parents just never cut the umbilical cord. Every time I hear someone "Praise Jesus" or "Thank God" when it was the hard work of the doctors that saved a patient, I want to punch them in the face out of pure spite. God won't save them from the bleeding, the doctors will. God won't strike me down for my assault, the police will. God won't render judgement upon me, a court of law will. God. Does. Not. Answer. Prayer. Put on your big kid pants and fucking deal with it.

God didn't make my flamesuit, I did, and I thank God he gave me the ability to do that for myself.

[SheilaT]

23. I once read that

some group which doesn't believe in conventional medical care, and I can't recall if it was Christian Scientists or Seventh Day Adventists, or some other group, tended to die on average at significantly younger ages than those in the community at large. They also, according to what I read (and I'm thinking it was a book about Christian Scientists called God's Perfect Child by Caroline Fraser, an excellent read I must add) would die of diseases that are no longer seen in the larger community, such as totally untreated childhood diabetes, and die horrifically of untreated cancers and the like. This is a religion that teaches we are all "God's perfect children", hence the title of the book, and if only a believer's faith is strong enough then prayer will cure all.

The really sad thing is that such belief system then totally blames the victim for what happens. So no, prayer doesn't heal, especially not without appropriate medical care. I suppose that for a believer prayer, or the knowledge that others are praying for one, is a major comfort and can induce the kind of positive attitude that can promote healing.

On another aspect of all of this, is that it's very common to hear doctors, nurses, and others who treat cancer patients to talk about how a particular patient (and family) have the kind of attitude that leads to a good outcome. Or how they'll get very discouraged when a given patient, perceived as having the appropriate positive, cancer-beating attitude, dies instead.

And just what kind of sadistic God answers the prayers of some and not of others?

[benEzra]

30. As someone who believes in both doctors and God,

I'll say do what you choose at your son's bedside prior to a risky surgery, or while in the waiting room, and I'll do what I think best with mine.

Our 9 y.o. son has, to this point, had two open-heart surgeries and seven angioplasties, a Ladd procedure, and a pharyngeal flap surgery, and has survived some amazingly close calls.

His surgeons have been phenomenal, and I don't deny them the credit for their excellent work, good judgement, and quick thinking, and I have thanked them profusely. But I pray by his bedside and in the family waiting room, too, and thank God for the outcome. Please get over it.

It can be a duality, you know. The doctors did it, and God did it.

We certainly prayed about which doctors to take him to and which surgical options to take, and we know other families who chose different treatment options whose children didn't make it. Thank God that we seem to have made the correct decisions in his case...

[knitter4democracy]

24. I think doctors believe in God changing things because they've seen it.

I know that my husband has run codes where he thought for sure he was going to lose the patient only to have something happen and completely turn everything around and the patient get better and leave the hospital. Most doctors call that Nature, but the belief is the same as believing in God.

As for end-of-life situations, how many Americans have lived through that with a close loved one and sat in the unit and seen people die? I maintain that most people have no idea what any of that means until they go through it themselves, and that's why it's so hard for them to accept death when it comes. There was a study, I believe in the NEJM, awhile ago that showed that codes on TV work over 80% of the time, while the reality is that they only work 30% of the time, and that's just in the immediate time-frame, as most of those don't make it in the long-term anyway. Most people really think that, if you get out the paddles and the tubes and hook up their loved one and do everything in your power, they're going to make it. That's just not the case.

Hubby does at least two or three family conferences a week over end-of-life care. They can go on for over an hour with people just not wanting to believe that their loved one is dying. They're a hard part of his job.

[sakura]

29. So if you can't explain something, it must be God's doing?

What a decidely unscientific conclusion. So much for teaching critical thinking and the scientific method in our medical schools.

[knitter4democracy]

31. No, they call it Nature.

Nature designed this, Nature designed that, Nature's in charge. They just don't call it God. ;)

The reality is, though, there's a lot about medicine that we just plain don't know. We don't know why cancer sometimes disappears with no treatment of any kind. We don't know why some people get really sick on some drugs and others don't. We don't know why some people get really sick and die from the same infection that an equally sick person ultimately survives. We can apply the scientific method all we want (and we do in academic centers, residency programs, and medical schools), but there's just too much we don't know.

[sakura]

33. Yes, it's really clear that in medicine there's a lot we don't know.

But that was true of medicine 50 years ago, 100 years ago and 500 years ago. Despite this, medicine has advanced. It's also true of science in general. In fact, it's the very point of doing science. It's doubtful that we will ever exhaust the things that are to be learned from the living world or the universe in general-- and that's a good thing. It means that as long as we do science, we'll have the possibility of continuing to advance as a culture/civilization.

To attribute a patient's recovery or sudden relapse to "God" or "Nature" or any other outside agent is to shut down discourse. Science (and medicine) would be not have advanced if people had said, "It's nature," or "It's God's will," to any of the major questions that have resulted in our technologically advanced culture.

"Why do eclipses only happen a few times a year?"
"It's God's will/It's just nature."

Notice how those two responses do nothing to answer the question. It's ALL God's will/Nature, but declaring this to be so does nothing to answer the underlying question. The fact that some patients recover and some don't presents fascinating questions that won't be addressed as long as people are dismissing their occurence as God's will, Nature, or whatever.

One of the most powerful things a person, particularly a scientist can say is "I don't know." This leaves open an opportunity to find out. But it also requires humility to say this-- perhaps the problem is that our culture expects physicians to have all the answers. "It's God," or "It's Nature," is a nice, pat answer, but it does nothing to advance medicine.

[knitter4democracy]

35. You forget there's a huge difference between academic and community.

Community-based medicine deals with the raw, day-to-day medicine. It's where the art of medicine comes into play and where real people die. Sure, those doctors read their journals and look for the latest studies and apply what they've learned to the patients they have, but they're not concerned as much with the hows and whys as they are the practical application.

Academic medicine is where they do research and try to learn the hows and whys. They're the ones who say Nature did it and then try to find out how it does it, in which steps, and what happens if you tweak it at all. They're not as concerned with the practical aspects of medicine as much as they are with the reasons why something exists or what can be done about it.

Most doctors are community-based. It's not that they're not scientists or aren't up on the latest research. It's just that they're in the trenches, seeing anywhere from 20-40 patients a day, running between the office and the hospital, and trying to keep everyone alive and healthy. Sure, they say that they don't know all the time, but they don't have the time to follow it up with research. They're too busy trying to keep alive and healthy themselves as well as their patients.

[sakura]

38. In my life, I have only had one physician tell me that he "didn't know."

If your husband is one of the few that does think critically, please send him my appreciation and the wish that more of his type get through med school. :)

Perhaps the physicians you know are different in this regard, but most of the ones I've met rely on facts they've memorized and digests of information rather than using critical thinking skills or reading original literature first-hand. This is even true of some academics. My infant niece was a patient at one of the leading medical research facilities in the U.S. She had a rare genetic disorder, and despite the fact that the physicians there were aware of its cause (a Krebs' cycle malfunction) they proceeded to give her treatment that exacerbated the problem. My sister-in-law, who hadn't even attended college was able, after reading a high school biology textbook, to point out their error. Luckily, despite her relative lack of education, she had been taught to think critically. (And her child's life hanging in the balance was a strong motivation.) Just for the record, not only did the physicians not admit that they "didn't know," they denied they'd done anything wrong. My niece died sooner than she should have as a result, and experienced a lot of pain that could have been avoided. So much for her physicians' critical thinking skills! As specialists dealing with a lot more death than most physicians, you might think their problem solving skills would be more finely honed. Sadly, that was not the case.

I have had similar happen with me own son, though on a much smaller, and non-life threatening scale. My son suffered from horrible ear infections and many ruptured ear drums for the first 6 years of his life. One pediatrician was unable and unwilling to converse intelligently about the research behind treatment of ear infections. He could only spout off information he'd memorized, and my job, according to him, was to just do what he said. Sorry. I'm a scientist. I need to know why, especially when my son's hearing is at risk. And I'd done a literature search. I had questions that he couldn't answer and it infuriated him. It was obvious that he was not used to being questioned. As a pediatrician, this physician was not very often in a situation where patients died. He was in an established, highly profitable business, and he didn't have time or inclination to understand the "whys" behind what he did. He needed to see his 40 patients to pay for his car, mortgage, etc. His treatment what he was told worked, and that was supposed to be good enough for his patients.

The fact that you draw a distinction between academic medicine and community medicine is disturbing. Regardless of the focus of their research, all physicians should be asking "why". If their caseload is preventing them from doing so, that is yet another thing that should be addressed in our failing medical system. For you to say that time doesn't permit this to occur is like a teacher saying he or she doesn't have time to teach effectively, as class sizes are too large. That may be true, but it doesn't excuse it. It just points to a larger problem.

Finally, I disagree with your assertion that it's "not that they're not scientists." I earned my Ph.D. in science by asking "why." If you're not asking "why", you're not a scientist. Physicians should be scientists. But please do not equate an M.D. with the title of "Scientist" until all physicians (or at least, most) act as scientists.

[knitter4democracy]

39. Most of the doctors I know are scientists, then.

Maybe because I refuse to go to a doctor who won't think critically. With my weird health history and on-going struggle, I need doctors who think outside of the box and question everything. Doctors like my husband (who was doing a massive journal search just last night for one of the partners' patients he'd seen and was trying to figure out) who actually listen, go through their lists, and then ask why is this not on the list, why is this not working, why is the patient not getting better.

Caseloads are huge these days. My husband barely has time for his kids, let alone doing any sort of real research. If he's got extra time, he's using it for his own health issues and his family. He gets home quite late most days as his load's gotten heavier this last year, and he often has to head back in to the hospital for family conferences (usually about end-of-life care, so they never go quickly) or to check on someone he's worried about. Our broken medical system is barely surviving because of the medical professionals (doctors, nurses, PAs, NPs, nurses' aids, etc.) who consistently work harder and see more people and do more because they aren't comfortable with what would happen if they didn't. That's how hospitals get away with lowering nursing staffing levels, knowing those left will make themselves make up for those not there, and physician practices can get away with upping billing requirements and patient quotas.

We get job notices all the time in the mail, as there's a huge shortage of internists nationally. Several times a month, we'll see one that "guarantees" a huge salary, often twice what Hubby's making now, but then in the smaller print says he'd have to see 40 patients or more a day. He sees 20-25 a day in the office now (with more at the hospital) and barely has the time to really listen and find out what's going on. I can't imagine how the hell he'd see twice that and still practice good medicine.

[sakura]

41. My mom was a nurse for many years, so I completely understand the understaffing issue,

and the fact that those who are there will undoubtedly work harder to pick up the slack, as the alternative is unthinkable. The hospital where my mom worked for many years had an unwritten policy of sending nurses home at the beginning of the night shift, as there weren't enough patients, knowing full well that they'd be swamped later in the evening, after bars closed, etc.

It's great that you've been able to find physician who listen, but perhaps the fact that you're married to a physician has something to do with that. It seems to be a lot harder for the rest of us. I'm sure your husband can tell you stories of med students and residents who were in it only for the cash. Then again, maybe things have changed since I was in school and every biology major was hoping to get into med school to cash in. The fact that the workload has increased and the pay hasn't really kept pace with that may have made a difference. My new physician (my old one just retired) is just out of his residency, and he has the right attitude. A lot of older ones don't. It took a heck of a lot of searching to find a physician for my son who would actually listen. The one we did find was in practice for herself. It was a very modest practice-- no fancy office or fancy address, and a lot of the patients she saw were on medicaid. But she knew her stuff, and what's more, she listened.

But the sad fact is, that's a rarity.

So where do you stand on changes to our healthcare system? Would single-payer fix things?

[knitter4democracy]

42. Damn straight we need a single-payer national health care system!

I have no idea why anyone would say otherwise. Even my in-laws (right-wing Christians who get the GOP catalog, for pete's sake) are coming around on that after seeing the hell that insurance causes.

Most of the newer doctors aren't in it for the money. If they are, they don't last. Med school covers ten times the amount of information that it did just fifty years ago in the same amount of time, case loads for med students and residents are heavier, and even with the new hours restrictions, it's still a much harder job for no more pay than you can make in business or law. Hubby's brother is an international tax atty and will always make more than Hubby with fewer hours, no life-and-death decisions that could kill someone, and a much easier grad school (not that law school isn't really hard--it is--but it's not as hard).

Hubby's second roommate from his first year of med school had a friend who was in residency for surgery (really tough program, unless you liked working 120 hour weeks on no real sleep) and quit to go to law school when he realized that the pay for general surgeons had stagnated. Pay for internists has stagnated, too, and in some areas even gone down (not here--the need's too great, but it's not going up).

You're right that the old guard has more who were in it for the money, but most of the newer docs aren't. The money just isn't there like it is in easier fields. That's one of the reasons I tend to see younger doctors (that, and Hubby trained with them, so we know them). I have found a precious few who are worth their weight in gold, but it's taken many visits, lots of interviewing of nurse friends, and several times of walking out and refusing to be treated like crap. I've been through too much to put up with crap medicine.

A great way to find a good doctor is to ask a nurse who covers the med floor at the local hospital. Hubby gets tons of referrals that way. ER docs, too, know who's good, since they deal with the FPs/GPs/Internists every shift. He gets many patients from them, too (even when he's not on-call, which is a bit frustrating, but if the on-call doc's no good, Hubby takes the patient).

[spoony]

25. So we like our candidates to be full of hope

but otherwise hope is to be ridiculed mercilessly. Even in the dying. Gotcha.

[DRoseDARs]

26. That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between hope and prayer. n/t

[jbond56]

27. poor amputees

Evidently God will save you from cancer but you are screwed if you lose you limbs. How many limbs has God regrown?

[Dukkha]

28. Matthew 4:7

Jesus said to him, “Once again it is written: You are not to put the Lord your God to the test."

faith healers and snake handlers always seem to forget this important lesson.

[neverforget]

34. but in the end, life has a 100% death rate.

[BlooInBloo]

36. In that sort of a situation, idiocy is best pampered.

[TexasObserver]

40. And they're the same people who want the doctor to give them antibiotics for their cold.

Pray, but double the meds.