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I just saw Schindlers List yesterday ,for the first time, and you know what boggles the mind ?

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UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:24 AM
Original message
I just saw Schindlers List yesterday ,for the first time, and you know what boggles the mind ?
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 10:25 AM by UndertheOcean
What boggles the mind is not the inhumanity of the Nazi Regime , its delusions and excuses , what really boggles the mind is how both victims of its oppression and ordinary German citizens went along with it for a long time , clerks , police , public servants , The killing was so methodical and bureaucratic to the point of unbelief.

I like to believe that if I lived there in that era I'd be one of the people shot trying to protect a Jew, if more Germans acted thus maybe the regime would have collapsed.


And the Reichstag fire and 9/11 were both used as excuses for revenge with very eerie similarity.


If such horrors can be perpetuated by one of the most cultured nations on Earth , a nation that gave us Beethoven , Bach , Mozart , Goethe , Hegel , Shoepenhauer , Liebniz ,Gauss, and many others. What is such and uncultured and backwards country like the USA capable of if it goes down the Fascist road.

? Hope this comes after my time , if it comes at all.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well, look how complicit our bureaucracy is.. Ever have a question or ask why?
And have a clerk say, "I'm just doing my job".

This is part of the system and the problem.. If someone does something that makes sense and saves money they get shit canned. Our govt need to run better and within the scope of the law...
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. You are exactly right. Bureaucracy is the little evil that allows the rest.
"It's the rules"
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. We have lived through similar times. Following the events of
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 10:30 AM by ikojo
9/11/01, how many supported Bush and rushed to his side? I was a PROUD 10 percenter at a time when Bush had a 90% approval rating. I KNEW he would exploit that event for partisan political gain. I didn't expect the so called opposition party to march LOCKSTEP with the Republicans though. I was also aware that had 9/11 happened under a Democratic presidency, the republicans would not have stood at that president's side, instead they would have started investigations on 9/12 or at the latest 9/13/01.


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KillgoreTrout Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Are you serious?
9/11 happened under a REPUBLICAN'S watch. GWB to be exact. The republicans did not start an investigation. It was a bi-partisan commission that did the investigations and the republicans in power tried repreatedly to squelch the investigations. There is enough blame to go around for both parties. At least Clinton actually attacked al Qaida before 9/11. Bush went golphing.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
34. That's what ikijo said
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
53. I don't think you can compare the two
Iron fisted murder of people and rebels is not the same as having an oblivious population of sheep.
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KillgoreTrout Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. A movie everyone should be required to see.
Nice post. You have to consider the state of Germany, right after the WWI. They got screwed by the treaty of Versailles. People were starving and hardly any jobs were available. Hitler changed all that. Unfortunately, he did it by invading and occupying Europe and parts of Russia. Nobody saw the holocaust coming, except for a few of Hitler's top aides and generals. Once it began, everyone was too afraid to speak out. It meant being sent to one of those death camps, or forced labor camps, which were not much better than the death camps. Truly a sad moment in the history of man.
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Truth4Justice Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. That and "V for Vendetta". Study your hstory books, people.
history repeats itself, but rarely in an exact form.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
52. I'd rather people read V For Vendetta
I'd rather people read V For Vendetta rather than see a crappy adaptation.
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Truth4Justice Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #52
67. Unfortunately, the public doesn't like buying books these days? I wonder why?
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. The public I know purchases books.
The public I know purchases books. Seems the number of books purchased rises at an absolute every year... :shrug:
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Truth4Justice Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #70
74. Perhaps I was mistaken then.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. Hitler, the original disaster capitalist?
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
66.  KillgoreTrout
KillgoreTrout

What Really killed the Weimar Republic with its democratic ideas, was not the Treaty of Versailles.. Even that many germans, with some right complained about what was wrong with it. And it was much to say about the wrong doing specially what the french had demanded and getting from Germany... But for the most part, what really was killing the Weimar Republic was the 1929 Wall Street Crash... Who was hitting Germany very hard because much of it foreign loans was recalled, and the german republic of the 1920s was just caving into to a debt crisis that was almost killing every industry n the country... Then Hitler so its time, after been silences in the 1923 punch coup in Munchen.. And between 1925 and 1933 when he was elected by 34 present of the germans to the Chansler of the Reich (note it, germany was still called the Reich by the Weimar Republic) the NSDAP was growing from a small party to one of the biggest in a few year time. NSDAP was the first "modern" party in the country, and was using every modern tecnic to give their side of the story to the germans.. And many germans fall for every word Hitler says.. And hoped for the day that the germans would be given back what they deserve... And for a time been, specially between 1933 and 1938-39 Germany was indeed coming back, with a revange... In 1939 the WW2 started, first as an european war, with UK and France at one side, and a mighty Germany on the other side. But it was viedend to a world affair when other part of the world was been turn into the fire...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english not my native language
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
4. You'd be surprised what people are willing to tolerate
when opposing it means they're likely to be killed. Self-preservation is a powerful instinct, capable of blinding us to pretty much any atrocity.

I'd like to think that I, too, would have been one of the ones covertly opposing the Nazis. I have both Jewish and German ancestors. It could easily have been me. But I don't think anyone truly knows what kind of heroism (or weakness) sleeps inside of them until they are the ones faced with making that decision.

That tendency to look the other way when "getting involved" could mean danger is a frightening thing. I read a study once (I don't have a link, forgive me) that said something to the effect of, "If you ever have a heart attack in public, pray that there are less than five people around. Our study found that the more people who witness an event, the more likely that any one of them will think 'Someone else will take care of it' and walk away."
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Truth4Justice Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. The German people were fearful of the police, snitches and the "let the other guy fix it" issues.
and so people died in the kamps.
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Interesting.
Just half an hour ago, I read about an American woman who collapsed and died while waiting in a hospital (?). She was lying on the floor for about 30 minutes and the few who saw her there didn't do anything until it was way too late.
The passer-by phenomenon was mentioned: When no one else is doing something about it, people tend to think it might be better not to do anything themselves which is really frightening.
I think the same could be said for Nazi Germany. There were those who chose to fight. Just not enough to encourage many more who remained silent.

I think we all like to believe that in the face of unbearable injustice and inhumanity, we would be the ones to take a stand and raise our voices or act to end this injustice. The sad truth is that with the exception of some heroes, our self-preservation will be stronger and we look the other way.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. I was thinking along similar lines, and this book is what came to mind:
"Obedience to Authority", by Stanley Milgram. Here's the Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

My own personal belief on this thing, is NOT that the greater majority of people are "spineless sheep". Rather, it's that the greater majority are CLOSE to "doing the right thing", but it's pretty scarey, seeming to be the ONLY one in the crowd sticking his/her neck out. But the effect of just a SINGLE defiant person, could encourage most if not all of them to "swing over".

It's an optimism that may seem odd, coming from someone older than McCain. But not being a card-carrying Christian, it's my own "religion". So to hell with any disbelievers!

pnorman
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. I wonder how the whistleblower personality would play out in that scenario?
I would like to hope that they would follow their previous pattern and be the ones to stick their neck out.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
29. And they were afraid for their families. I agree that we do not know
where we would have stood in that time. I have always given thanks that all my German ancestors came to America when they did. Now I fear what we as Americans may do as times get tougher during oil peak, food shortages, global warming and other future emergencies.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
30. Bystander effect (link)
Overview

Solitary individuals will typically intervene if another person is in need of help: this is known as bystander intervention. However, researchers were surprised to find that help is less likely to be given if more people are present. In some situations, a large group of bystanders may fail to help a person who obviously needs help.

One legendary example is the case of Kitty Genovese, who was stabbed to death in 1964 by a serial rapist and murderer. The killing took place over the course of half an hour: the murderer initially fled the scene, scared off by a neighbor, but returned ten minutes later after realizing that no bystanders had interceded on Genovese's behalf. Exaggerated newspaper reporting following Genovese's death claimed 38 witnesses watched the stabbings and failed to intervene. Although in reality the police was alerted on both attacks and only one of the total of a dozen witnesses observed that there was a stabbing going on, the phenomenon is still referred to as the Genovese syndrome or Genovese effect.

In 1972, Dr. Wolfgang Friedmann, professor of law at Columbia University, was murdered in broad daylight and bled to death on the sidewalk. The death of Deletha Word near Detroit in 1995 after witnesses failed to thwart her attackers, as well as the James Bulger murder case, are often cited as other highly publicized cases of the effect.

A 1968 study by John Darley, now a professor at Princeton University's Department of Psychology, and Bibb Latane first demonstrated the bystander effect in the laboratory. They ran some simple studies such as the following: A participant is placed alone in a room and is told he can communicate with other participants through an intercom. In reality, he is just listening to an audio recording and is told his microphone will be off until it is his turn to speak. During the recording, one participant suddenly pretends he is having a seizure. The study found that how long the participant waits before alerting the experimenter varies directly with the perceived number of other participants. In some cases, the participant never told the experimenter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. That was set in Poland, where there was a strong culture of hatred toward the Jews.
So not only would it have taken tremendous courage on your part, it would have taken an utter rejection of the values with which you were raised.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. WRONG!!
There were many Jews in Poland precisely BECAUSE of the culture of tolerance toward Jews. While Spain was torturing Jews during the inquisition and burning them alive, Poland was a model of ethnic diversity during the Middle Ages. If you have ever wondered how the majority of Jews in Europe ended up in the East, mixed in with the Slavic peoples and a long, long way away from the Middle East where they started, it is because they kept moving until they found people that were tolerant of them.

While every country can fall victim to fascist demagogues who play on ethnic hatred (and Poland has had its share of those, too) there are enlightened rulers like Kazimierz Wielki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_III_of_Poland) who enacted laws to protect the Jews. Please take a minute to check your facts before you post such ignorance.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Props to Casimir III. Obviously the Schindler of his day.
But Poles are anti Semites. Just like Lithuanians.

The Nazis did not roll into these nations and convert them. They were that way to begin with.

How do you think the Jewish ghettos were created? Through shunning and isolation by the majority culture from time immemorial.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. Fighting fascism must be continuous
Poles and Lithuanians are NOT anti-Semitic by some accident of birth. Every human culture values itself and cautions about getting too close to the other. The other culture might be dangerous or evil or swarthy or dirty or greedy or misogynistic or violent or any of hundreds of other epithets that have been hurled back and forth. What Kazimierz and Schindler realized is that people are just people, and should be given the chance to live in peace, whatever their culture.

What Nazis do is to take advantage of cultural suspicions and fan the flames of hatred for their own purposes. Nazis only picked on the Jews because they were a significant minority. They couldn't pick on Japanese; there weren't enough living in Europe of the early 20th century. They couldn't pick on Lutherans because they were too large a minority, in fact a majority in some places. Jews were a minority everyone came in contact with, they dressed different, they worshiped different, they celebrated different holidays, they called themselves "God's chosen people". What a convenient target for a lazy demagogue to vilify!

The formation of ghettos is not as easy as you seem to think. Sometimes, it was because Jews wanted to live in close proximity to their own, to facilitate social interaction. Harlem did not become a ghetto by forced migrations; it was a cultural renaissance that led African Americans to want to live there in the 1920s. But by the 1960s, it had become an economically depressed area with a lack of opportunity for the residents. Lodz was barely a spot on the map in the 1820's; in the 1920's it was one of the largest cities in Poland because of the textile industry that grew up there, an industry in which Jews were very well integrated, not shunned. When the Nazis rolled in, the first thing they did was to put walls around the Jewish neighborhood and turn it into a ghetto. And the more people they packed in and the less food they supplied, the worse the living conditions became, proving what the Nazis said all along that Jews were dirty and sub-human. If you took any exclusive gated community anywhere and applied Nazi methods, you could also turn it along with its residents into a ghetto and call the people living there sub-human. Just look at what the Gaza Strip has become today.

Poles have suffered along with the Jews that used to make up a large fraction of the population of the country. After the partitions, the Germans, Austrians, and Russians used the cultural differences between Catholics and Jews to keep both types of Poles subservient to their ambitions of Empire. And with enough propaganda, yes, they did turn on each other to the detriment of both.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #36
60. Great post. Thanks for the education!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
23. The anti-semitism, especially in Poland, but also throughout Europe . . .
was taught by the Vatican in its demeaning and degrading Jewish citizens
over 1,100 years . . . forcing them to wear yellow stars on their clothing ---
and its one thousand year propaganda war on the Jews ---

The Vatican has been called upon by the international community to sign a
"Confession of its co-responsibility and guilt for the Jewish Holocaust in Germany" . . .



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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. Definitely. Good Catholics know who killed Christ.
Romans became Roman Catholics. So who does that leave to blame?
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bdf Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
40. I've never understood
It was the Romans who killed Jesus. Crucifixion was not something Jews used. Nor would the Romans crucify somebody just because their puppet priesthood asked them. Jesus was a revolutionary attempting to get rid of the Romans. But when Constantine adopted Christianity as the new state religion, those facts were conveniently forgotten and the puppet priesthood got the blame.

Oh and Judas, of course. It was all Judas' fault. And that's the bit I don't understand. If Judas had not betrayed Jesus then he wouldn't have been crucified and we wouldn't have Christianity. Judas was essential to God's plan. So why wasn't Judas made a saint?

Then again, most of that stuff in the NT is a load of after-the-fact invention to cover up the fact that Jesus was a failed prophet and a failed messiah.
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Kber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
51. There was a Gospel of Judus recently rediscovered.
Banned by the early church, the premise of the Gospel of Judas was that he was elevated above the other disiples, hand picked by Jesus to pretend to betray him so that he could be sacrificed.

Jesus sacrificed his life, but Judas sacrificed his eternal reputation.

Anyway, it wasn't included in the "official" bible, for reasons you can well imagine.

KB
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bdf Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. With or without that gospel
Judas played a key part in bringing God's plan to fruition (if you believe the orthodox interpretations of the Babble). Without Judas there would be no Christianity. Jesus would have carried on as a revolutionary, trying to overthrow the Romans, and teaching the Jews how to be better Jews (so that Gawd would then smile down upon them and come to the aid of the revolution). Those Catholics are such ingrates!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Right ... the redeemed version of Judas ---
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. Well. . . . you might consider that you're actually dealing with myth . . .
created much later -- even the myth twists and betrays itself ---

Jesus was also at war with the Hebrew god -- with the patriarchy oppressing females ---

with animal-eating ---

There is also redeeming info about Judas --- for every bit of info you think you find ...

dig deeper and you find something different!

One prime example of that is Lilith -- who was Adam's first wife ---

She was uppity because she knew she had been created equally ---

So they got rid of her and then defamed her endlessly ---

You have to dig and dig before you find stories that Eve sought her friendship

-- as someone to tell her dissatisfactions with Adam ---

But basically they turn Lilith into a murderess before you find out anything truthful

about her.


In the end it's a peaceful "god" at war with a violent "god" ---

it's about the patriarchy's war on women and using the Bible to cement patriarchy ---

It's about a warrior "god" in the imagine of the Roman Emperor ---

It's patriarchal violence vs tolerance and non-violence ---


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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. yeah, but good christians know that jesus WAS a jew.
a bunch of non-jews (the romans) persecuted and killed a jew (jesus), and somehow this is an excuse to hate and kill jews millenia later....
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. ...yeah, isn't it ironic that they could make Catholics forget about that little detail -- !!!
Jesus' family were, of course, Jews ---
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Truth4Justice Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. Sorry.Too late, its already here in its birth. Your grandchildren will be fascists in full form.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's the old slippery slope of torture, imprisonment without rights, kidnapping by govt.
Countries and cultures slide into fascism, as it feeds some of their ego needs to feel superior to other nations and groups.
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Truth4Justice Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. The police in this nation feel superior to John Public and only the blind cant see that as truth.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. They're being taught to disregard citizen's Constitutional rights . .
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Truth4Justice Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
65. In truth I don't think the younger generation even KNOWS what their rights are, including the police
They must be educated in a court of law.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
9. What do you mean "if"?
1 million plus Iraqi civilians dead. Millions more displaced, millions more injured. Over 4000 American troops dead. Tens of thousands more without limbs.

A media run by corporations loyal to the Republican party.

America is already a fascist state.
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
43. What lynyrd_skynyrd Said
I get the feeling that people are walking around, slapping themselves on the face, telling themselves, "This is just a dream... just a dream... just a dream..."
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
69. The very fact that DU exists
and that you can post what you have posted, and maintain your freedom to post again next week, is proof that your post is incorrect.

The US is still far from the fascist state. We're more a lazy and apathetic citizenry than a fascist form of government.

Please don't minimize the evil of fascism by calling the US fascist. You do no one a service.
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tannybogus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. This may help a little.
Read books about "rescuers." These were people who risked their lives to save Jewish people.You will see that there is a tiny bit of good.
They are honored in Israel at Yad Vashem. They are granted the title of Righteous Among the Nations to the few who helped Jews in the darkest time in their history.

“ I believe that it was really due to Lorenzo that I am am alive today; and not so much for his material aid, as for his having constantly reminded me by his presence… that there still existed a just world outside our own, something and someone still pure and whole… for which it was worth survivng ”

Primo Levi describes his rescuer, Lorenzo Perrone, (If This Is A Man). http://www.yadvashem.org/
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
13. people are sheep, waiting to be led.
very few people are actually using their minds for critical thinking and challenging core assumptions. as true in this country as anywhere in else in the world.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
14. The Holocaust brings out
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 10:47 AM by supernova
a couple of very stark things about evil that we really wish weren't true.

We want to believe that evil is always easy and obvious to spot. It isn't. Getting your papers stamped for Auschwitz can be as bureaucratically mundane as getting a Visa to travel to Europe. That is the real horror of it. It happens in plain sight and no one is the wiser because it looks so much like normal everyday life and works to mirror it.

That people can't get caught up in mass hysteria. Perfectly logical people that you've known all your life, whom you wouldn't think could succumb to abstract hatreds, do just that.




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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
17. The intimidation of citizens begins early on and finally they can't react ---
we have been watching that same thing happening in America over the past 30 years -- at least!

Many who recognized it and were able to moved out of the country ---
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
19. What are we doing to free Gitmo prisoners?
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 10:57 AM by Marie26
It's very easy to delude yourself & avoid thinking about the horrors your own government is committing.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. We read the stories . . . we're shocked. . . we move on ---
We criticize our Congress for doing nothing to help them ---

We criticize the courts for not helping ---

We move on ---

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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. yeah...move them to Saudi Arabia.
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arthritisR_US Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
20. In response to the Reichstag fire came the Enabling Act, your Patriot Act
reads word for word in many parts as the Enabling Act and has broad sweeping powers over your citizenry as the former did. How many middle eastern people have been disappeared? What of rendition and torture? The corporations were complicit with the Nazi's as they are today with your present regime. Difference? Perhaps in degree only, but not in kind, IMO.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
31. And let's not forget
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 11:37 AM by Turbineguy
The Nazis rose on the collapsed economy that destroyed the middle and working class of Germany.
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JamesA1102 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
32. That Speilberg won an Oscar for a film that ripped off other directors work
while totally ignoring the 7 million non-jews who also were killed by the Nazies.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. The film was about a specific person, Schindler, and his actions.
You can't cover everything in a movie. In fact, it's usually more effective if you focus on a specific person or incident.
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JamesA1102 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #39
64. He could have mentioned them in the dedication at the end of the film
But he didn't.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. Your slip is showing...
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. That has always bothered me, too.
My birth father, aunts, uncles, brother, cousins - non-Jews who perished.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
33. I've been thinking of this comparison since late 2001,
when nationalism and jingoism reared its ugly head here again. It is happening here and now, though not to the extent yet of what happened in Germany. But "yet" is such a cold and scary word.
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
37. Humans are conformist
Ever hear of the Milgram Experiment? In the early sixties (if memory serves), a lot of people were asking the exact same question and generally came to the conclusion that the Germans were just "different" (read, "inferior"). The psychologist Milgram set up an experiment to test this. The experiment consisted of one subject, in a room with two speakers and a dial with varying voltages marked on it and the lethal voltage clearly marked. One speaker was supposedly wired to hear the person receiving the shocks (in reality, an actor), the other carried instructions from the superviser (sometimes Milgram himself, more often one of his assisstants).

The subject thought the test was about the effect of negative stimulus (in this case, pain) on memory. In reality, the test was to see how far the average person would go if ordered to do something unpleasent by someone in a percieved position of authority. The way the test was set up was that the subject would ask the actor various questions, supposedly testing his memory and, if he got them wrong, would be ordered to administer increasing electric shocks to the answerer (remember, the lethal voltage is clearly marked).

What the experiment showed is that the vast majority of people (well over 80%) would push the voltage well over the lethal level, even when hearing screams, pleading and dying noises, when ordered to by an authority figure. In reality, of course, no-one was physically harmed but what the experiment proved was that humans are instinctively conformist. Most of us will do as we're told.
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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
44. It was fear
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 02:18 PM by JustAnotherGen
Fear of Communism lead many countries down that path. There's the reason the Netherlands and France 'went along' with their invasions. And there's a reason they both had well organized resistance movements in the framework of their accepted occupations. Naomi Wolf has an interesting little book our right now. Read it if you can. I became enamored with her writing and thought processes while I was in college many years ago. As she and I have aged - we still (based on reading her work) have had our minds age the same way/look at things the same way.

I'm kind of brain dead right now so sorry for my ramblings.

So in my next breath - we give Germany, France, Italy, Poland, The Netherlands, etc. etc. way too much credit. France was just as disillusioned by those few months in 1919 as Germany was. That 'peace' that was brokered? 70 years later would get torn to shreds again in the Balkans - and yes . . . in Rwanda too (Belgium's booty in the war).

Unfortunatley - we aren't 'uncultured' and backwards'. With the exception of our Natives - we all come from someplace else . . . and we've brought the imprints from the 'old world' with us. I posted earlier today my thoughts on the Dumbing Down of America. And it was dumbing down in Europe in the 1930's that lead to the horrors of World War II.


What gives me hope though? People see it happening in America. You, me - we're willing to question it right? I know for my part - this is why McCain terrifies me. He reminds me a little too much of Petain. Both 'war heros' - both doddering old fools that would sell out their countries for their own benefit (Petainist ='s Nazi nd McCain ='s Corporatism).


ETA: I read. I read A LOT. If you can get past her 9/11 drivel - Read Claire Berlinski's book http://www.amazon.com/Menace-Europe-Continents-Crisis-Americas/dp/1400097703/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218395732&sr=1-5 . Another book: Paris 1919 - Six Months that changed the World - and - Problem From Hell by Samantha Power to understand more of my thought process around this.

But - Wolf's Letter To a Young Patriot is a MUST read for all Americans. She nails it head on, the puts the car in reverse and runs it over again.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
45. I am not a battered housewife.
I am not an alcoholic.
I am not sick. I don't need to see a doctor.

Hey, I just let my body disintegrate over the last ten years, because I thought it would go away on it's own. I'm extremely physically active. I thought I was fine, but just aggravated by external circumstances. Well it ends up I have sleep apnea. And without a machine, I was headed for the grave. Ten years. And I'm vigilant.

Humans deny that anything is wrong. After all, this world we've created is not natural, per se. It's an artificial creation that we have designed. So our instincts just don't operate well like they did when we were sniffing for tigers. Sniff sniff, yep that's a tiger. It doesn't work with Hitlers. Although most of us on DU are good at seeing the truth of what is happening.

Like I was thinking yesterday, fear is stronger than love. I often ask why we aren't helping each other, instead of spending billions on military spending, which will only bring us all down. Why not drop recipes on each other's countries? Why not enjoy each other? Our art? Our inventions? Our wealth? And no, I'm not a communist. The answer is we're scared. Not all of us. And in fact I think primarily we are doing good things. It's the small fraction who get these evil things going. But the question is, why aren't the rest of the people up in arms, stopping the madness? It's fear. If we loved democracy and peace more than we feared consequences, we'd have the world we're talking about.

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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
46. "They Thought They Were Free."
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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. ocelot
Thanks for the book tip. ;-) I'm fascinated with the world from 1898 to 1947. Any new material is good material. Especially when history is eerily repeating itself.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
49. A Little Time Perspective...
By the time of Kristolnacht...the date some cite as the start of the Holocoust, Germany had already undergone 5 years of Nazi propaganda and as well as 20 years of political and social turbulence. The country had gone from the draconian and embarassing reparations of WWI that opened the door for both Hitler and the wave of Aryan superiority that made the systemic isolation and hatred of Jews, Gypsies and other groups a "norm". Those who saw what was coming, and could escape, did...those who didn't never had a chance.

Schindler was just one of many who tried to save and protect the Jews...many you never heard about since they were caught and joined them on the trains to the camps. He was unique that he had the conscience and means and motive for saving the Jews...and some of it was for his own profit. Another name forgotten is Raul Wallenberg, the diplomat who also worked to saved many Jews but was able to accomplish this thanks to his high standing. Others weren't that fortunate. We'll never know how many Germans attempted to rise up as dead men never tell tales.
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
50. Just one question: Did you make out while watching Schindler's List? I heard that's a no-no...nt
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
58. So, when Blackwater knocks on your door what are your plans?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
59. I am willing to bet that you would not
or you would be acting already NOW.

That said, book recommendation

The Banality of Evil by Hannah Arendt.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
61. A Holocaust movie with a trademarked Spielberg happy ending is what I found...
to be mindboggling...but not really surprising
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
62. Our entire nation has slipped from sovereignty to some other horrid thing
being run by the military-industrial-congressional complex we were warned about by a freakin' PRESIDENT, and we sit here on our hands pretending our votes matter, our politicians are honest, etc. We just sat there and let the SUpreme Court pick a president. We sat there and let Bush overthrow a sovereign nation. We let this administration torture in our names, wiretap us, spy on us to the nth degree. I don't see how you think we're any different. You think we'll suddenly draw the line at a holocaust-like situation? I don't.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
63. And that's why poor Anne Frank was wrong...
deep down people are craven and fearful opportunists
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
68. UndertheOcean
UndertheOcean

No country is safe, when its nationalistic tolerance is going down the tube.. But I do hope the Nazi-German policy about murdering millions just because they was who they are, are an exemption from the rest of the world history in the age we are living in... But I do fear that under the blanked of what happening today, many similar history would be given light in time.. Maybe not in the same scala as the Nazis was doing it... But still....

When a crime like given light to in Schindlers List (as I was seeing it in college) it comes from mangy sources.. The Jews was "hated" for their sauces long before Hitler came into power.. I have to say that the hate against the jew is a bad habit we in Europe have had for a long time.. And the jew population have ever lived in some fear for what the rest of us cand o when in crisis.. But for the most part the jew in germany was a success story, with famous people in all sectors in society. It was not that "bad" feeling between ordinary germans and jews for the most part.. But under the carped, specially in the more remote part of Germany, and other places, the hate against the jew was long as ages..

Hitler taped into much of the hate and used it to the best of the abilities he could muster.. He hated the jew for everything in the world..And many others do hated them to.. Mr Gobbles was one of the most hatefully and spitefully leaders of the Nazi-Regime. And he used all the tools in the trade to tell the story of how bad the jew was, and that they have to be "relocated" some place.. To the east specially after the German occupied Poland..

Between 1933 and 1945 between 5-6 million jews was killed.. Millions of others was killed to, but the jews was specially piked on, because they was what they was. And the Chindles List with all the graphic are still one of the brutal and truly ugly movies who have hit the silver screen as I know about it...

Every part of a society is "criminal" in some sorts, if it let this type of thing happened. Even if they do not know how the end would be. Because the leadership of Nazi-Germany was very clear about that the death camps, and the concentration camps of the east should be kept secured as long as possible.. Because in germany it was still to many who would reject what the nazi party was doing.. And many germans was indeed not in the clue about what their regime was doing.. But after a while, it should not be possible to hide even for the most "moran" type of germans what really happened when the jews was been sending to the east.. But after so many years with "jews is bad, jews have to be send out of the Reich" it was not easy to stop thinking that "they deserve what they get, the evil doers of the world" and sutch...

Many germans, indeed many of the criminals who was doing Hitlers bidding in the camps was indeed telling the same story, If it was not been telling, it would be TO impossible for the most part, that the ordinary people would understand the whole story. And indeed, many people in Europe who maybe have not been educated enough about what happened in German hold territories do not believe all to be true... Not the people who was growing up when it happened still believe it to be true...

I hope not that US would act as Germany did after the Reichtag fire in 1933... But I do se some scary similarities between the fire, and what happened after 9/11 2001. I do se that the camps US have in Afghanistan, Iraq and on Cuba could be reconsider as some of the same camps like the Buchenwald, Dachau and so on in the Germany. But it is one big difference at least for now in the prison camps US have. You don't gas people for what they are yet.. You do torture and the occasional killing of prisoner, as the first concentration camps also did. But not at the scale the later concentration camps was doing it... But the similarities is there, and I fear that the road to fascism are not yet finished... If US managed to vote in an different President,who could stop it before it is to late. Then maybe, just maybe the phantoms of past would not be there... But if they do vote in an president who would do the same as the current administration.... Then everything could be in the air... Everything..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
71. I thought so too, but when you look into the era you realize that it was almost inevitable...
..there was a deep running hatred of jews throughout Europe, the Germans had been humiliated and emasculated by the Treaty of Versailles after WW I, and Hitler came along at the right time to fan the flames of anti-semitism, blaming the economic woes of the average German on the jews...

The majority of the German people weren't 'afraid' or 'unwilling' to speak up, they were willing participants in the holocaust. There is simply no way that one 'ignores' death marches, ghetto liquidations, or the smell of burning flesh as the bodies went in the ovens. The German people KNEW what was happening, and were happy to go along...Read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" for me detail...

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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
72. Read "They Thought They Were Free" by Milton Mayer
But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933,between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the universe was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was "expected to" participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one's energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. "One had no time to think. There was so much going on." "Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your "little men", your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about - we were decent people - and kept us so busy with continuous changes and "crises" and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the "national enemies", without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end." But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn't, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your "little men," your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something - but then it was too late."

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, "everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to – to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked – if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying "Jew swine," collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in – your nation, your people – is not the world you were in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done ( for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.

"What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or "adjust" your principles. Many tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to heroism: shame. Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the world knows or cares to know." 

I said nothing. I thought of nothing to say.

"I can tell you," my colleague went on, "of a man in Leipzig, a judge. He was not a Nazi, except nominally, but he certainly wasn't an anti-Nazi. He was just – a judge. In "42" or "43", early "43", I think it was, a Jew was tried before him in a case involving, but only incidentally, relations with an "Aryan" woman. This was "race injury", something the Party was especially anxious to punish. In the case a bar, however, the judge had the power to convict the man of a "nonracial" offense and send him to an ordinary prison for a very long term, thus saving him from Party "processing" which would have meant concentration camp or, more probably, deportation and death. But the man was innocent of the "nonracial" charge, in the judge's opinion, and so, as an honorable judge, he acquitted him. Of course, the Party seized the Jew as soon as he left the courtroom."

"And the judge?"

"Yes, the judge. He could not get the case off his conscience – a case, mind you, in which he had acquitted an innocent man. He thought that he should have convicted him and saved him from the Party, but how could he have convicted an innocent man? The thing preyed on him more and more, and he had to talk about it, first to his family, then to his friends, and then to acquaintances. (That's how I heard about it.) After the "44" Putsch they arrested him. After that, I don't know."

I said nothing.

"Once the war began," my colleague continued, "resistance, protest, criticism, complaint, all carried with them a multiplied likelihood of the greatest punishment. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was "defeatism." You assumed that there were lists of those who would be "dealt with" later, after the victory. Goebbels was very clever here, too. He continually promised a "victory orgy" to "take care of" those who thought that their "treasonable attitude" had escaped notice. And he meant it; that was not just propaganda. And that was enough to put an end to all uncertainty.

"Once the war began, the government could do anything "necessary" to win it; so it was with the "final solution" of the Jewish problem, which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its "necessities" gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany's losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-08 09:29 AM
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73. American culture produced the masterpiece that moved you to post
We have our moments and contributions too.

But about your main point- How does this happen? Fear and ignorance and the manipulation of them. It's human nature unfortunately, no matter what cerebral accomplishments accumulate. And it will keep happening again and again and again....
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