I'm amazed at how quickly posters here have become "Experts" on South Ossetia...

[HEyHEY]

All of the sudden people are throwing their weight around like they actually know what the fuck is going on and know all the history. I don't give a fuck how well read you are. With all the shit going on in the last few years, I doubt many of you have been keeping a watchful eye on South Ossetia. Most news agency didn't even have people on the ground there. Yesterday, at work, the news anchor had to make some calls to figure out how to properly SAY the fucking thing.

I've seen people here making comments that are obviously based on other conflicts and history, not on what is actually going on. I know very little about this. But from what I understand it is not a cut and dry conflict by any means. Anyway, I'm rambling. I'm just asking people to read up on it before they post.

Purplemonkeydishwasher

[Liberal Veteran]

1. Not me. It's all I can do not giggle shamelessly reading headlines that Russia invading Georgia...

...cause I keep thinking of the state I grew up in, not the country.

[eppur_se_muova]

28. I used to work for a boss named Georgia ...

so I am even more disconcerted. :(

[roguevalley]

95. check out the picture at huffingtonpost.com. it will make you cry.

that woman on the ground looks slightly like my mother. :cry: :cry: :cry:

[question everything]

2. Strong image

and seeing Soviet, er Russian tanks move into a city reminds me too much of Budapest 1956 and Prague 1968.

Yes, I know that it is different, but the images are strong.

[cynatnite]

3. n/t

[isentropic]

4. I confess I never heard of it before last night...and sadly I don't care about it either.

It is far from clear to me who, if anyone, is the 'bad' or the 'good' guys there.

[Canuckistanian]

5. I had no clue about the South Ossetia region unitl I Googled it

About 4 hours ago.

I studied Russian and Slavic languages and knew about the "Ossetian language" but never knew about the historical significance of the region.

And even after my recent research, I STILL don't know what the issues are.

[dems_rightnow]

56. I'd never even heard of it.

Oh, well.

[PeaceNikki]

Ah yes, reminds me of Benazir Bhutto's death.

Everyone here suddenly knew everything about her.

[WeDidIt]

6. I think you only need to know one word

Pipeline.

That pretty much sums up what this is all about.

[gateley]

8. THAT I would heartily agree is without a doubt. Regardless of how little

I know about the specifics. :thumbsup:

[HEyHEY]

9. no

It's not that simple

[BurtWorm]

10. I agree with you.

People seem to be glossing over the differences between the South Ossetians and the Georgians. Or they think it's ok for Georgia to crack down on South Ossetia but not for Russia to punish Georgia for cracking down. People seem to be missing who's causing the most bloodshed.

[HEyHEY]

12. Not only that

They are suddenly summing up what, from what I've read, is an old conflict to the old "Oil" argument.

[BurtWorm]

14. It's difficult for a lot of Americans to get worked up about anything

that can't be summed up in a slogan.

[gateley]

7. Many people have helpfully provided links to different sources without trying

to impose their views on others, too. :shrug:

[nancyr]

11. You don't have to be an expert to care.

I have sympathy for the poor civilians who have been caught in the middle of a stupid conflict that chances are, they have utterly no control over. I sort of think that people are people no matter where they might live, and probably they just want to be left alone to live their own lives in the way they choose. It's the governments that start the damn wars. The people suffer...as always.It's tragic...like all wars are tragic.

[HEyHEY]

13. What?

I'm not saying people can't care. I'm just pointing out that all these people posting about it like they're authorities are really annoying.

[nancyr]

18. Sorry, I didn't mean that for you.

I meant to reply to poster #4...the one who said they didn't care.

[isentropic]

44. That would be me...I'm absolutely willing to hear any discussion of why I -should- care.

And some indication of who are the good guys and who are the bad ones because I'm having a bitch of a time sorting them out.

[glarius]

27. Aside from everything else the thing that floors me is hearing Bush

say on NBC that Russia is attacking a "sovereign country" (Georgia) and this will cause an upheaval in all the surrounding countries. His arrogance is almost funny it's so unbelievable. He just described what he did in Iraq!

[boilerbabe]

57. You've got that right!

Am reading Vincent Bugliosi's book "The Prosecution of George W. Bush For Murder" as we speak. Check it out!

[boilerbabe]

55. Agree wholeheartedly!!! N/T

[Junkdrawer]

15. I've found the following two truisms serve me pretty well...

1.) Most 20th and 21st century conflicts involve resource disputes - mostly oil

2.) Governments on BOTH sides of the conflict deny this. It's hard to get people to fight and die for oil.

[HEyHEY]

16. That part of the world still fights for old ethnic/political reasons

[Dead_Parrot]

19. I guess it becomes habit-forming:

When your country is in the middle of a bunch of resource wars, the idea of two countries (or three, depending on your veiwpoint) slugging it out because they just don't like each other becomes sort of alien.

[Beam Me Up]

31. Yes. But who is arming the Georgian's and for what reason?

I freely admit I know nothing beyond what I've just begun reading in the last day or so (other than from what I learned from a friend who visited Georgia last year). Haven't we seen these kinds of ethnic issues emerge before only to discover that what is really behind them are larger international issues?

What I want to know now is whether this is related to the military build up in the Persian Gulf. I find it difficult to believe they are unrelated and coincidental events.

Edit typo

[boilerbabe]

59. That's an interesting connection

It might be that those looking for an alternative to the Middle East's oil supply are trying to take what they think are "easier pickings"? Or do you see a deeper link there? I must admit I have not even a surface knowledge of the situation there (Georgia) having only caught a couple of blurbs on the internet.

Feel free to straighten my dumb uniformed ass out anytime!!

[Beam Me Up]

93. Well . . .

This has been brewing for a long time. We need to open our eyes to the bigger -- regional -- picture. Eurasia/ME picture.

Look at this thread from 2007 for example
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3046912

Note the asia times link. Good read.

This thread from yesterday finally got kicked onto the greatest: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3764580

The simple answer is: The US and Israel.

Tie this together with the fleet on its way to the Gulf region (while Congress is on vacation and all eyes are on the Olympics):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3769868

and we may have what is euphemistically called an "emerging situation" on a regional scale that could go global at the drop of a hat.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boilerbabe]

58. They have to convince them it's for other altruistic reasons N/T

[Junkdrawer]

61. Or exploit old, ethnic divisions. n/t

[boilerbabe]

62. Good point!

Anything to stir shit up to the advantage of those behind the scenes! I know nothing about this region, so I am learning as I read along...

[NutmegYankee]

17. I'm amazed at people who claim to be authorities on what we all know.

Because hey, all of us Americans are just illiterate dumb fucks who can't point our own country on a map. God forbid some of us actually like to follow this kind of stuff. Especially with such a wonderfully fucked up region, with Armenia and Azerbaijan having fought over regions, Turkey and Armenia's nasty history, and Hey, is that Chechnya? Gotta love the Hypocritical history with that region and Russia. Every Country in the region has its borders screwed up.

Do I have my opinions, Yes I do. I realize that Georgia isn't squeaky clean, but I have followed the news, including when Russia started giving out passports to the people in South Ossetia. And now they jump in to "protect their citizens"! How Convenient!

[tama]

23. FYI

As South-Ossetian and Abkhasian passports are not internationally recognized, so only way for them to travel abroad is to aqcuire double citizenhship which Russia has kindly granted. In South-Ossetian referendum independence won with overwhelming support, and if they prefer joining Russia and North-Ossetians, who are you to tell them not to?

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[isentropic]

46. Well, that certainly has to be the most intellectual question since "why is the sky blue?"

:eyes:

[HEyHEY]

48. For a guy who "Doesn't care" about something like this it's funny to see you

talk about intelligence

[boilerbabe]

65. Have you some links for those of us that are...

latecomers to the issue and discussion and would like to become better informed? Haven't read a newspaper all week. Work shiftwork and go to school online (excuses!).

I don't necessarily equate apathy with lack of intelligence, though, I might have misread the semantics in your post!

Help us out so we can have an intelligent discourse with you!

[NutmegYankee]

67. Check out this map

Notice the borders vs ethnicity. They are all screwed up.

[boilerbabe]

71. Wow!

Just spent several minutes trying to decipher that one! I didn't realize, for one thing, that there were so many ethnicities involved! Thank you so much for this map, I saved it to look at later.

Ball of confusion! I wonder why everything is so segregated, do you think that was the intent of the people wanting to take over the natural resources? Chaos and such would maybe enable them to take advantage of things?

If I had the time, it would be great to look into the cultures of all these different people that I never even knew existed.
What an eye-opener regarding the border anomalies. Thanks so much for this map!

[NutmegYankee]

84. Your welcome.

You can see two major groups seeking independence - Chechnya, which tried to break away from Russia and failed, and the Kurds, who also do not have a nation but reside across several.

[boilerbabe]

87. It's a shame that people can't live the way they want to! N/T

[fascisthunter]

91. That Map Puts a lot into Perspective

all I can say is, yikes!

[boilerbabe]

63. Haha! I missed it! They yanked the post!! N/T

[NutmegYankee]

66. I wish I hadn't missed it,

I'm curious what the "question" was.

[boilerbabe]

72. Me, too. I think that it must have been pretty angry or something!

I hate it when stuff gets deleted because it gives me that salacious tabloid "just gotta know" feeling!! It might be like reverse psychology--tell me no, and I will do "yes"...

By the way--off topic--are you in CT? I have been here for 11 yrs and am not sure if we are Nutmeg or Oregano state!! Gotta go look on my license plate...

[NutmegYankee]

85. Connecticut.

We are in the same part of the state it seems.

[boilerbabe]

88. I'm in Uncasville, home of Mohegan Sun

I could walk there if I had the motivation! It isn't a bad place to live, but I really do miss CA!

[NutmegYankee]

92. I live on the Coast (Groton)

[AngryAmish]

60. I think Abe Lincoln might have some thoughts on that subject

[boilerbabe]

64. We could use someone like Abe right about now! N/T

[LBJDemocrat]

70. The Sudetens wanted to be part of Germany too. nt

[AllentownJake]

97. We had a situation similar in this country in the 1860s

A bunch of people wanted to leave. We didn't let them.

[tama]

20. Rambling indeed

"I don't give a fuck how well read you are."
"I'm just asking people to read up on it before they post."

:)

[HEyHEY]

22. Uh dude......

That still makes sense.
I'm saying that no matter how much you follow the news the chance of you being an avid watcher of South Ossetia is small. So, please DO read up on it before you post.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mojorabbit]

41. I don't know much about the region

but if you do, I'd love for you to fill me in on the details. I was assuming by looking at pipeline maps that it was a jockeying for control of oil supplies and all that that brings.

[BeHereNow]

53. You have summed it up perfectly.

From 2002.
http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/DA26Ag01.html

Cast of players in Azerbaijan:
http://www.usacc.org/content.php?type=page&id=2&chi=5&par=3

Think of Georgia as an annex for the hegemonic US powers.
The country being discussed in this thread just
happened to have the bad fortune of location and
means nothing to those engaged in the conflict;
US led corporate interests VS Russian corporate interests.

BHN

[boilerbabe]

69. Thanks for the informative links!

I had read similar, but not so well-explicated articles regarding this pipeline. I really appreciate your posting of both links. That first one was really prescient, wasn't it? Though it was written in 2002, you can see the writing on the wall. What a complicated scheme!!

Do you think that we will eventually get back into some sort of cold war with either Russia or China due to the demand of oil and desire to control it? It seems like history repeats itself over and over (oops, that was redundant), but with newer technology the only difference.

Your summary of the situation seems very logical, and I appreciate your post.

[BeHereNow]

94. Tis my pleasure- I only wish more people would take the time to read up on it.

As witnessed by reading many of the threads posted
about the situation, it is clear many people have absolutely
what the crux of the conflict is.

Those who have followed the situation for decades
have said all along that Russia would not stand by
and allow complete US led hegemony of the oil in the region.

It's going to get ugly unless some back room deals are made.
Given the players, I'm not holding my breath on that.
As witnessed by reading many of the threads posted
about the situation, it is clear many people have absolutely
what the crux of the conflict is.

Those who have followed the situation for decades
have said all along that Russia would not stand by
and allow complete US led hegemony of the oil in the region.

It's going to get ugly unless some back room deals are made.
Given the players, I'm not holding my breath on that.
http://www.socar.az/partners-en.html
BHN


Edited to add link

[thewiseguy]

21. Georgia was responsible for starting this war

They started shelling the capital of this breakaway city and in the process killed Russian peacekeepers.

[boilerbabe]

73. What do you think their motivation was?

I am just only starting to get a picture of this, thanks to some of our fellow posters, whom have provided some interesting, informative links. Was this city (Ossetia?) like Quebec, and wanting to just secede? I'd like to hear your views on this!

[lame54]

25. I know exactly what's going on in - wait, what this place called again?

[boilerbabe]

74. People are starting to post some links--keep looking! N/T

[fishnfla]

26. Its war, you gotta be some genius to figure it out?

take the first sentence of your post, and repeat

[HEyHEY]

32. Wars start for a lot of different reasons

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boilerbabe]

75. Ouch, Darling!!! N/T

[RNdaSilva]

29. Hit the nail on the head.

Actually there are more psychoanalytic and family affairs "experts" here in re the John Edwards melodrama than are South Ossetia "experts." At this point in his situation I don't think that Edwards needs added attention.

What's on the menu for next week? Make it voyeuristic.

Misery loves company.

[Enrique]

30. I'm an expert on North Ossetia

South, not so much.

[RNdaSilva]

34. My expertise lies mostly in the area of East Ossetia...

if we combine our smarts we just might truly become experts.

[Enrique]

54. we just need a West-Ossetiologist and we'll be all set

:-)

[Codeine]

35. That's easy, then.

Just take everything you know and turn it upside down.

Or is that Australia? I never know anymore. . . ;)

[boilerbabe]

78. Ha! I can't figure out the difference between North

and South Dakota. Which one has Mt. Rushmore. It might be true that Americans have some bad geography skills. I have even been to a few places and still couldn't find them on a map.

[boilerbabe]

77. Fill us with your erudite knowledge!!

Don't deny us, now...we need your help here!!

[defendandprotect]

37. Right . . . I'm still trying to understand a NATION article I just posted . . .

and found tons of valuable comments I'm trying to post ---

this will be a big job to get to the truth of this thing ---

and there are probably quite a number of "truths" --- !!!

[Cleita]

40. Well I like to write stories about Colchis and other parts of the Caucasus

during the Bronze Age, so I've probably done more historical research than the average person, as well as trying to get a feel for the geography by scanning google satellite maps. So remember Jason and the Argonauts and his quest for the golden fleece, which was kept in Colchis (Georgia today)? It appears that the mythical fleece today is made of black gold.

[boilerbabe]

79. Sounds like history really does repeat itself

Even after all those years. I remember reading about Jason and the Argonauts years ago for a mythology class. That is really interesting that you are involved in that particular area and time of history. Coolest!! Do you have any opinions or conjectures based on your research that might be relevant to what is happening in that area now? I imagine that what you might say would be quite intriguing!

[Cleita]

96. Just off hand.

Since the country is surrounded by mountains and two inland seas makes it unique not only as an area that could not only defend itself, but is also open to raiding for the same reason. I believe the very warlike people developed in that region for that very reason. Many of the patriarchal traditions of the people have been handed down through the centuries from that distant time. However, like I said today isn't what has interested me in the area but the legendary and almost prehistoric past. It was a region of great strife, yet women have historically played an important part in the politics in spite of the patriarchism. Princess Medea was a priestess of Hekate one of the aspects of the triple goddess, that of the crone of the underworld. She was a sorceress too. Both aspects make her politically powerful and enabled her to overthrow her father and help Jason gain the golden fleece or what I believe was the gold of the region. So women had a place of power in that warrior society. There have been later queens in medieval times who ruled the country as well.

[Critters2]

42. Hell, I took a bunch of Russian history classes in college, and still

never heard of it. And I'm not ashamed to say so.

Of course, maybe I was just not paying attention that day...or playing frisbee on the quad. These things happen.

[HEyHEY]

43. "I was totally stoned that day"

"duuudde"

[boilerbabe]

81. If that polar bear is a pic of you--

Well, you do look a little relaxed! Glad you started this discourse, are you getting any better responses yet?

[boilerbabe]

80. It might be because when you took your classes in Russian

that it was all unified under the Soviet Union. Not that I am saying that you are old or anything, but it wasn't too long ago. Those places might have been, in the day, more like "counties" or something rather than the confusing autonomous regions or countries that have developed in the very recent years.

Your knowledge is still useful here, don't worry! It's a lot more than many of us have had. Especially since you studied this on a college level. To me that means "advanced"--big time!!

[ZombieHorde]

45. 90% of us were born and raised there. 72% are there right now.

[RNdaSilva]

50. Where? Transylvania?

[boilerbabe]

82. Can you elaborate? N/T

[ZombieHorde]

98. elaborate

Yes, I am a smart ass.

[Generator]

47. I thought we were only experts

on sexual affairs and the sex lives of politicans. It's a busy week no?

[HEyHEY]

49. If only edwards had slept with a woman named "Georgia"

[RoyGBiv]

51. I'm fairly well read ...

I have some expertise in history and had something of a mini-concentration in Eastern European history in college ... just because I liked the subject and took all the courses I could.

Before a couple days ago, I'd never even heard of South Ossetia. In fact I went and dug out some of my books on Russian and Soviet history and only found a few references to it, none of which would have caught my eye as anything important.

So, yeah, I get what you're saying. I think a lot of people have been reading Wikipedia and somehow think that makes them an expert.

[Dover]

52. Yes. And then there is the confusion created by the 'spin'.

South Ossetia Sinks Into The Spin Zone

A battle of perceptions
August 09, 2008
By Robert Coalson


In the modern world, wars are won and lost as much in the minds of global public opinion as on the battlefield. Even as the fighting between Russia and Georgia has raged in South Ossetia and other parts of Georgia, a fierce -- if uneven -- media battle has also unfolded. Each side is eager to establish its narrative of the situation and unfolding events.

As on the battlefield, Russia enjoys vast material superiority in the information sphere. Its 24-hour English-language news channel, Russia Today, has covered the story relentlessly since the fighting erupted on the night of August 7-8. Over footage of dead soldiers and civilians, moderators have emphasized the growing humanitarian crisis in the region, claiming that Georgia has refused to allow wounded refugees to travel to Russia. On August 8, the channel passed along unconfirmed reports that Georgian troops had executed wounded and captured "peacekeepers and civilians."

Since access to the region has been cut off from the Georgian side for many months, the only journalists able to report live from South Ossetia have passed through the Russian side. Independent journalists have been denied visas, meaning that media reports from the ground have come largely from Russian state-media journalists, including reporters from Russia Today and the Russian state military channel Zvezda.

Russia Today has reported a steady string of Russian government statements, including Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov's assertion that he has received reports of "ethnic cleansing" by Georgian troops in South Ossetia. On August 9, Russian Emergency Situations Minister Sergei Shoigu arrived in the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali, bolstering Russia Today's narrative that the Russian incursion is a "peacekeeping operation" intended to restore order and provide humanitarian relief.

..cont'd

http://www.rferl.org/content/South_Ossetia_Sinks_Into_The_Spin_Zone/1189760.html

[boilerbabe]

83. Excellent link!

What do you think? Is there really an ethnic cleansing (I really hate that term---it just is so horrid)? Or is this just a one-sided propaganda move in order to stir up stuff? It seems that the Georgian side of things are not getting heard, so that would make me doubt the validity of that claim.

[JawJaw]

68. Useful BBC Documentary

I can recall a good BBC documentary series "Places that don't Exist" a couple of years back. One of the episodes featured South Ossettia, and gives some useful background on the region, and more importantly the psyche of the participants in this conflict.

Transcript of the programme can be downloaded here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/4491059.stm

Unfortunately, I can't see this programme listed on YouTube, but some of Simon Reeve's other stuff is: (e.g. holidays in the danger zone). Simon Reeve, incidentally is an excellent and underrated documentary maker. He has that ability to make people trust him and open up a bit. You won't see him striking many heroic poses..

One of the most memorable and frightening scenes in the South Ossettian doc, was a visit to a former Soviet military base, where hundreds of weapons of all descriptions were just lying around gathering dust, surrounded by a rusting chainlink fence..


"I was then taken to see far more powerful rockets
lying unprotected and unguarded. There’s not even
money for petrol for a lawnmower to cut the dry
grass; a major fire risk"

"There are two hundred kilos of TNT in each rocket.
One can destroy almost anything; they are extremely
powerful. For example, a skyscraper, no problem."

"The director’s just mentioned that soon this base will be
reclassified. At the moment it’s a military base so it has
five guards. Soon it’s not going to be a military base
anymore so even those five guards are going to be
taken away and all these guns, all the missiles, all the
shells, tens of thousands of shells will be completely
unguarded, which is why we’re not going to tell you
where they are."

"This is ridiculous. I mean what the hell are these, what
the hell are they all doing here, why, how, how are we
allowed just to walk in here."

[boilerbabe]

86. thanks for the great link!! n/t

[DailyGrind51]

76. I was watching the Russian News (RT) this morning and listened to

their take on what was happening in Georgia, with the word "GENOCIDE" under what was purported as footage of South Ossetia villages being bombed by Georgian planes. It reminded me a lot of America's justifications for invading Iraq. Did "they" learn from "us", or was it the other way around?

[boilerbabe]

89. Do you have a link to what you saw?

I think that some of this stuff is inherent, and not so much learned, but maybe they think it's justified by example? I don't personally have any of those traits, so it is difficult for me to comprehend just how evil people can be.

[renie408]

90. Blame Wikipedia. Two clicks and anybody is an 'expert'. n/t