Student on Semester st Sea kicked off ship and left alone in foreign country for....................

[tannybogus]

Plagiarism.

The assignment was to write a paper on the foreign language film "Europa, Europa."

But when Allison Routman, a senior at Ohio University, used three phrases from the Wikipedia summary of the movie she was accused, tried and kicked off her Semester at Sea ship for plagiarism.

"UVa librarians step up and explain to students what is documentation, how does one do a research paper, what constitutes plagiarism," explains UVa Spanish professor David T. Gies. "They talk to them about it, they offer sessions in the library on the ship."

<snip>
Allison Routman told CBS19 in a phone interview that when all this went down, she was kicked off the ship in Greece, left to fend for herself. She had to sleep in the Athens airport until she could finally get a flight back to the U.S.
<snip>

http://www.charlottesvillenewsplex.tv/home/headlines/26463004.html

Maybe that's what really happened to the people on Gilligan's Island. I don't condone plagiarism, but were they afraid this was a modern version of "The Rime of the

Ancient Mariner?" Wahoowa! :shrug:

[JVS]

1. couldn't they have just keel-hauled her?

[Midlodemocrat]

2. UVa has a 'one strike, you're out' honor code. 7 other kids

were expelled this year. I, for one, am glad to see at least one University that takes cheating seriously. Cheating is rampant here in the high schools. The administrations all just look the other way.

[bicentennial_baby]

3. My thesis is on plagiarism

Should be interesting. :)

[Canuckistanian]

98. Hey! I got this great article you can copy, er, look at.....

Never mind.

[tannybogus]

4. Again, I don't condone plagiarism.

I don't think you just leave someone alone in a foreign port especially in this day and age. Put her in a brig if they are that serious.

[Midlodemocrat]

5. Nope. Those were the rules. She knew them, she agreed to them.

And, they were originally going to put her off in Egypt, the first port, but her parents intervened, worried because she is a Jew. They brought her to Greece and put her ashore there.

I have taken high school kids all over the place, including Europe. I sent four home in the middle of the night for drinking. They knew the rules. They chose not to abide by them.

[tannybogus]

9. Were your kids just left by themselves and you assumed they would get home?

I would have sent them home too. However, my point is still being left alone in a foreign port.

[Midlodemocrat]

10. We put them on a plane home.

Their parents were responsible for getting them home from the airport.

And, this wasn't a young girl. She was a college student doing a semester at sea. I am positive, actually, I know, she had the means to get herself home.

[tannybogus]

13. You knew, however, on your end that those kids had boarded the plane.

They were on their way to the US and their parents could meet them. Having the means to get home and actually getting

there are different things. It may sound nitpicky, but what if she had disappeared before she could board a plane.

[Midlodemocrat]

18. They were 14. Bit of a difference.

You don't send a son or daughter on a Semester at sea without having the means to get them home. It's clearly written into the release everyone signs.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. Er, she's not a "kid." She's an adult

The sooner college students get through their heads that they are not "kids," the better.

[tannybogus]

20. Last try.

She is an adult, and should be held responsible! I'm not arguing punishment or plagiarism. I'm arguing safety.

Just because you're an adult, doesn't mean somebody shouldn't try to make sure you are okay. I think I read too many mysteries and watch too much CSI.

[Midlodemocrat]

24. She should have thought about that prior to breaking the Honor Code.

And, she arrived home without incident, so what's your point?

[tannybogus]

30. "And, she arrived home without incident"

That was never a foregone conclusion. Post #22 had a good point too.

Now, everyone can argue whether she plagiarized or not. I've already irritated all

wondering about someone being alone. Told you - too much CSI. :hi:

[Codeine]

35. There's probably a good "Law and Order" episode there,

actually. You'd have to have the girl disappear, and one of the students on the Honor Court would have been a quiet, desperate young woman jealous of Plagiarism Girl's handsome boyfriend. She fakes the plagiarism and pays off some Athens bad guys to kill the girl, but gets caught when she tries to kill the boyfriend after he spurns her advances in the wake of Plagiarism Girl's disappearance.

[tannybogus]

37. Ha!

Copyright that immediately. You'll see it next season on some show if you don't. You won't make a nickel.

[Chemical Bill]

164. I'm with you...

The safety issue looms large with me. At very least she should have been put on a plane.

Personally I don't have as big a problem with her crime as some here, and I think her grade should have been the only thing that suffered. I see the punishment as similar to impeaching a President for having an affair with an intern.

Bill

[Quantess]

38. Just think if there had been "an incident".

Instant lawsuit.

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. Groundless lawsuit

Probably thrown out immediately, since the students sign documents stipulating exactly what will happen.

[Midlodemocrat]

64. Exactly. And, when I took high schoolers abroad

their parents signed documents stating that in the event of a breech in behavior, they would be put on the first plane home at the parents' expense.

I seriously don't know why people are so upset about this. It's not as if she had no idea what the Honor Code was.

[tsuki]

117. Most definately. And a big settlement. With the way "fear of foreigners"

has been hyped, a jury would have decided for the parents.

[Midlodemocrat]

141. Um, the parents can't sue on her behalf. She's an adult.

She knew what she was doing when she signed on for the program. She fucked up and got what she deserved. No sympathy.

[tsuki]

157. I am not talking sympathy. With the way "fear of foreigners" has been

promoted in this country, if something had happened to her, her parents could have sued and won.

I am talking CYA.

[trumad]

Are you out of your fucking mind...

If they did that to my kid I'd find the person responsible and kick their sorry ass.

[LostinVA]

44. The SAS students know this will happen if they break the honor and ethics code

They sign a document saying so. They are someone's kid, but they aren't kids. It's no different than if she worked someplace and embezzled money, or broke a company policy she signed off on. She was given her passport, money, and her family was informed. She's a student, but not a child.

[Codeine]

45. She isn't a kid.

She is an adult. She knowingly and willingly violated the terms of her rich-kid-cruise-with-a-classroom deal and was punished accordingly. What's the big deal? Do you honestly feel a college senior doesn't have the life skills or intellectual tools needed to arrange a flight home?

[alcibiades_mystery]

50. And you'd go to jail

And that would be a good thing.

This WOMAN id likely 21 or 22 years old.

She can hack a night or two in a major European airport.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Midlodemocrat]

62. Yeah, sure you would. You're a big tough guy, trumad.

:eyes:

Do you know anything about the UVa Honor Code? Apparently not.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

168. For fuck's sake, have you read post #53? Have you?

You think THAT is worth leaving somebody stranded in a foreign country?

What next, uncited use of the word "the?"

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. She was an adult kicked off a ship for violating the rules

It happens all the time. Neither the ship nor the University has the responsibility for getting such people home. Universities don't act in loco parentis, and haven't for quite some time. In any case, according to the article, they made reasonable accommodations by waiting to boot her in Greece rather than Egypt, at the request of her parents.

[Codeine]

27. She was perfectly safe.

She was in Athens, not Mogadishu. All she had to do was nap in the airport like hundreds of other travelers do every day then board a plane and fly home.

Hell, I would have said "Fuck it" and done some exploring at that age. Seriously; Athens at 21 or 22 years old -- that would have been freakin' paradise.

[tannybogus]

33. See post #30.

I'll think about this when I'm in Mogadishu.

[Midlodemocrat]

63. Not to mention the Greek Isles.

[dysfunctional press]

105. just don't try going to greece with any of your screenname- BIG no-no...even if it's prescription.

unless the law has changed in the past couple years- greece will arrest you if you try ti bring in codiene- even if it's in a prescription medication.

[Codeine]

107. The only Codeine I like

is the old SubPop slowcore band.



The real stuff makes me sick as a dog. I think I'm allergic to opiates.

[lumberjack_jeff]

134. Kids?

She was a grownup who is accountable for her actions.

[snooper2]

183. Last time I checked 18 and above

is an adult...never too early to take responsiblity for your actions :hi:

[Maine-ah]

56. my father had to do the same thing

when he took his french class to Quebec.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

165. 3 phrases. Excesses don't cease to be excesses because they're written in a rulebook.

And that's all I'm saying.

[verges]

186. Key phrase: You sent them home.

You didn't just abandon them. There is a HUGE differnce.

[LostinVA]

40. Too bad too sad -- the kids sign a code of ethics before they leave

[sasquatch]

6. Nice post Chairman Mao

You really think the University that was partly built using slave labor really is on proper standing here with this?
:shrug:

[Midlodemocrat]

8. Oh, dear God. What does that have to do with this?

And, yes. I am glad that a University has the balls to enforce its Honor Code. It should mean something. I'd like to see more kids kicked out and more publicity about it because maybe it would curtail the cheating in the high schools.

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. Because UVa was partially built using slave labor, they cannot take any ethical stance whatsoever

The logic is crystal clear!

:sarcasm:

[QC]

21. LOL! I'm glad you were able to find the logic there

because all I could see was one of the stupidest posts in the history of DU!

[isentropic]

72. Did you forget the "You know I'm just bullshitting" smilie?

?

[sasquatch]

102. To a certain extint I did

[Dr.Phool]

76. Nice post Blackbeard.

They should have made her walk the plank.

:rofl:

[sasquatch]

101. HAHAHAHAHA!!

Yes they should have, hell I would have done it for fun.

[malaise]

15. I agree with you 100%

I am sick of students who cheat.

[verges]

185. I don't think anyone

is questioning whether plagiarism is wrong and should be punished. What's questionable is marooning a kid in a foreign port to fend for herself! That's overkill.

[hendo]

7. Good for them

she broke the rules, she has to pay the consequences. If she didn't want to get kicked out she shouldnt have plagarized her paper. Kids need to learn to do research on thier own and cite sources when they use them. She got what was comming to her.

[Clear Blue Sky]

11. Good for them.

What good are the rules and honor code if not enforced? These students are adults and are being treated as such.

[bean fidhleir]

12. Unless the paper was fewer than 12 phrases long

or the 3 quoted phrases were the heart and soul of the paper, I can't see how it could be plagiarism.

The essence of plagiarism is passing someone else's scholarship off as your own. Unless those phrases were so central to the whole paper as to be irreplaceable (unlikely), she didn't do that.

[JVS]

14. I'd really like to see the file on this one too.

[Midlodemocrat]

19. UVa's Honor Board is comprised solely of students.

No adults. The kids on the Board take it extremely seriously. As they should. She wasn't the only one this year. 7 others got the boot and 4 others withdrew after admitting they cheated.

I am totally in favor of it.

[JVS]

36. I'm just interested in what these phrases were.

if they are very short phrases, it might be coincidence. They probably were not brief phrases if the board decided this was plagiarism. I'm curious though.

[JerseygirlCT]

136. Not on the ship it isn't.

And the kids - including UVa kids - quoted were quite unhappy about that.

Professors made the ruling - not students. That's not the way the Board works at UVa, from what I've read. So if it's going to be transplanted, perhaps it ought to be transplanted whole.

[Midlodemocrat]

139. Um, no. The UVa Honor Code was in effect for this SAS

because it hadn't been previously and the students who attend SAS who also attend UVa were unhappy about that.

I seriously don't see why people have a problem with this adult getting what she deserved? What she was promised would happen if she violated the Honor Code. I mean, seriously, :wtf:

[JerseygirlCT]

142. From the OP's article:

Even more problematic, the fact that Allison was tried on the ship for plagiarism by a panel of professors; at UVa students are judged by a panel of their peers.

"On the ship, we don't have the number of UVa students who have been trained for a semester in how to be an honor adviser," Gies says.

But that's not an excuse that sits well with the students we talked to.

"One of the main tenets of our honor system here is that it's completely student-run and it does distinguish our system from a lot of other systems," Mani explains. "To have it be judged by a jury of professors is not really fair."

"If you're going to transplant the honor system from UVa, it'd better be UVa's honor system," Minneman adds.

[Midlodemocrat]

143. Dupe.

[Midlodemocrat]

146. What difference does that make?

The Honor Committee didn't make the trip, so the Honor Code shouldn't be enforced? Students at UVa FOUGHT to have the SAS held to the them standards as UVa students.

Seriously, she KNEW what she was signing. She fucked up. Why is this story getting so much press when 7 other kids were expelled for violating the Honor Code and 4 others withdrew because they admitted cheating? Because it's a rich little girl from Ohio?

Sorry, not buying it. If you send your child to a semester overseas, you need to be able to deal with something like this should it arise. I had a friend who lost a son in Malaysia overseas because he couldn't get a flight in time and the child died from one of the exotic fevers that he hadn't been vaccinated against.

SAS ain't cheap. Hell's Bells, why didn't she use it as an opportunity to explore Greece instead of whining about how she was mistreated. No sympathy. She fucked up. She got what she deserved. And, instead of defending her, her parents should be all over her for wasting their money.

[Bill McBlueState]

28. So it's a 25% rule?

Never heard of that.

[bean fidhleir]

81. It's a "non-trivial appropriation" rule, which would be a big chunk

or a very, very crucial little chunk. Whether it's 20% or 25 or 30, who knows. Five percent is probably not going to do it, unless it's without question the most important 5% in the paper.

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. ANY uncited work taken from another writer is plagiarism in an academic paper

That includes uncited paraphrases.

Definitions of plagiarism have NOTHING to do with whether the plagiarized portions are "central" to the argument.

[bean fidhleir]

80. I don't think you can support that.

See, e.g., http://www.historians.org/PUBS/Free/ProfessionalStandards.cfm#Plagiarism where the standard is appropriating someone else's very words or "distinctive and significant research findings or interpretations" (the latter being something that, by wiki's own rules, does not exist there).

Also http://library.duke.edu/research/citing/plagiarism.html
"to intentionally or unintentionally appropriate the ideas, language, key terms, or findings of another without sufficient acknowledgment that such material is not one’s own." That the term refers to a non-trivial appropriation is hinted at here: Copy from published sources without adequate documentation. Purchase a pre-written paper (either by mail or electronically). Let someone else write a paper for you. Pay someone else to write a paper for you. Submit as your own someone else’s unpublished work, either with or without permission.

Further: http://www.claremontmckenna.edu/registrar/acpolicy/plagiarism.php
"When you write a research paper, you coordinate information from three kinds of sources: (1) your independent thoughts and experiences; (2) common knowledge, the basic knowledge people share; and (3) other people's independent thoughts and experiences. Of the three, you *must* acknowledge the third, the work of others." Wiki is by its own definition a repository of pd (common) knowledge.

[alcibiades_mystery]

92. Nothing in your citations disputes what I said

[bean fidhleir]

109. Oh I think it does. You claim that "any uncited" reference is plagiarism

which would make the choice of the word "onslaught" rather than "attack" citable, if she was inspired by something she read. I hope you can see how silly that would be.

Looking at the actual three phrases involved (downthread), it should equally be obvious that those are cultural-property, factual boilerplate, no more the result of creditable scholarship than a mention of the weather would be.

[enlightenment]

43. She did.

Plagiarism is intellectual theft. She could have avoided the charge by simply citing the passage she copied. She failed to do so, so, in essence (to borrow your wording ;) ) she stole not just the substance of someone else's intellectual effort, but the wording of that effort as well.

Think about what you wrote. If someone were to take your post and put it into their own post without quotation marks or any other reference to you - if they were to use your words and idea as their own - how would you feel. You might not care, but what if you did? Would you feel as if someone took something from you? It's only three phrases, but they are YOUR three phrases and you have a right, in a civil society, to claim them.

People do that sort of thing on DU all the time - and the people who they copied often express their irritation in a way you might not even notice. They'll write, "As I said in post #2, before the other poster . . ." or "Glad you liked what I said enough to copy it . . ." or something similar.

It may sound petty and pedantic to quibble over three phrases, but if a student cannot do something as simple as give credit to a source then they are stealing. Yes, we do it every day; we don't demand that every word that drops from our lips or fingers be cited. But she was in an academic environment that demanded she do so - and she didn't.

[NashVegas]

58. Can You Imagine The Reaction To That Cite?

"265.25.4.1"

"ibid"

[JVS]

123. Which is why many professors advise not to read wikipedia at all, or if you do then be very....

careful not to use it. Not only is it a terribly difficult site to cite, especially when one considers frequent editing changes, but the information within an article is often not well-cited either. The best part of the wiki page is the works cited section because that's what one should read.

[Codeine]

22. She is a college senior, for fuck's sake!

Most of us would have loved to solo-travel in Europe at that age. She was well and truly capable of taking care of herself. She was in Greece, not the Gaza Strip! :eyes:

[tannybogus]

25. LOL!

I told you I read too many mysteries.

[Quantess]

23. They really should have made her walk the plank instead.

:evilgrin:

[Codeine]

29. That would have been a story

for the grandkids, huh? "I remember back in ought-eight. . ." :D

[Dr.Phool]

79. Sorry, I plagerized your thoughts in a reply upthread.

No need to throw me out now. I'm home already.

And this big dog sleeping on my feet wouldn't let you.

[Quantess]

82. No, we just had the same idea.

The words "Kicked off the ship" gave a visual of wanna-be pirates with a dagger between their teeth while forcing her off the ship with a sword.
:)

[Bill McBlueState]

32. She's a college senior

Probably means she's in her early 20s. A 20-year-old who's supposedly smart enough to get through college should be able to handle getting back to the US from Athens.

[tannybogus]

34. See post #30

I'll pick my battles, and this isn't one I'll go balls to the wall for.

[LostinVA]

39. I know the UVA librarian, I just called the person who was the one last semester

And, I know the one who is going next semester, as do a few other DUers.

I know ALL the background about SAS, and know how last semester a bunch of kids with influential parents got away with this, even though UVA has a one strike policy. Most of these kids aren't UVA students, but they have to adhere to UVA policies -- UVA staff and faculty made a big stink about the kids getting away with crap, so the SAS people are finally making the SAS students be treated like the UVA kids.

The girl KNEW what she was doing, and she's an adult, and she wasn't left in the frigging Outback without water. So GOOD. Actions have consequences, and plagiarism is theft (plus, using Wiki as a valid source???).

Good for UVA!

[depakid]

41. Three phrases from wiki and they kick her off the ship?

Not only that, but they didn't follow proper procedures.

Perfect example to set- so typical of America these days- and particularly phony pretentious institutions like UVa.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

47. We're not "asswipes" or "morans" for asking her to abide by rules she said she would abide by

Your view on ethics in this case actually surprise me.

[Midlodemocrat]

65. Yeah --

And we've got keyboard warriors and intellectual infants, along with douchebags stating that an adult shouldn't be penalized for their actions.

Even after she signed the documents stating that the UVa Honor Code was in effect.


It boggles. :eyes: Personal responsibility anyone?

[isentropic]

73. I don't think "give 'em hell Harry" would condone plagiarism.

...

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Midlodemocrat]

127. Perhaps you should keep your little

snowflake home then, if s/he can't resist the urge to violate the Honor Code.

[LostinVA]

46. UVA is one of the best educational institutions in the United States

Their library is one of the top ARL libraries in the United States. They are known for how high they set the bar for their students, including their Honor Code. These are the main reasons UVA is now the university associated with SAS. Many of these kids who go on SAS think they can party and fuck around, but they can't: they are going to UVA for a semester. They know this, they know what is expected of them.

UVA is NOT "phony," and although it can occasionally be preteniousm, it is a great place to be educated at or work at. I know it very well, although my diploma iosn 't from there.

And, in college, I Academic Honor Court, and expelled more than a few students. Like UVA, our court was student-run.

I hope her own University suspends her for a semester.

[depakid]

48. How often do you see groundbreaking material come out of UVa?

I know it has a reputation in some circles, but asinine zero tolerance policies applied like this don't do the institution any favors. She's an undergrad for crissakes. All of what, 20 years old?

It's easy enough to fail the student on the assignment and/or for the class- and give her a disciplinary mark on her record, without having to act like she's gone and committed a felony.

[Codeine]

49. Undergrad senior.

So more likely 22 or so, and old enough, and experienced enough in the ethics of college writing, to know better. Old enough to face the consequences of her actions. Old enough to be held to a high standard. Certainly old enough to spend an evening in Athens waiting for a flight home.

[depakid]

57. This sort of thing is part and parcel to America's larger problems

Failure to deal with circumstances using the rule of reason- and in this case, failing to follow the accepted procedures (essentially usurping the student body's authority and providing a lame excuse for doing so).

Like I said- a fine example to set.

[Codeine]

60. The rule of reason?

She agreed to these terms and should thereby be expected to live by them, no?

[LostinVA]

51. Your subject line shows your ignorance on this -- wow

Incredible.

[depakid]

55. Actually, just some familiarity with UVa

gained from personal experience.

[Midlodemocrat]

67. Uh, huh. sure.

If you had ANY familiarity with UVa, you would know that kids are expelled every year for breaking the Honor Code.

[Midlodemocrat]

66. Man, that is about the stupidest thing I've read here.

So, as a 20yo undergrad who signed the papers knowing full well the UVa Honor Code was in force, they should look the other way when she broke it?

If you believe that, you are part of the large scale cheating that takes place on high school campuses country wide. No accountability. No repercussions.

I'm delighted that UVa has this type of Honor Code. Most colleges in VA do. My daughter will sign hers at a ceremony the first week of school and isn't phased at all to be doing it because she doesn't cheat.

The only people that think this Honor Code 'zero tolerance policies' are problematic are probably cheaters themselves. Like the drunk in the jury who is reluctant to convict the guy of DUI.

[depakid]

83. Who said anything about looking the other way?

I said act reasonably under the circumstances -something that the moralizers and punishment obsessed in America seem to have a hard time with.

Ever wonder why you have the world's largest, most expensive and growing prison system, where some states now spend more on their corrections department than higher education?

One need only look to attitudes like some of those expressed here to find the answer....

[datasuspect]

125. my god, you are such a binary thinker

reading what you write just seems so mid 90s gingrichian.

[geek_sabre]

53. more info here

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-08-08-0145.html

Her class had been assigned to watch a movie and write a paper comparing it with personal experiences from the voyage.

She chose "Europa Europa," a film about the Holocaust, and related it to her experience growing up Jewish.

She said she watched the movie but looked up the synopsis on Wikipedia to make sure she used the right historical terminology.

<...>

She said she had been taught to rephrase to avoid plagiarism and that was what she did. The three sentence fragments she quoted verbatim, she said, were factual.

who taught her that?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/V/VA_CRUISE_CHEATING_OHOL-?SITE=OHWOO&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

The professor alleged that she used three phrases identical to those on the online entry about the movie: "when the Germans attacked the Soviet Union during Operation Barbarossa," "German speaking minority outside of Germany" and "who had been released from a concentration camp."

"In my opinion, that was historical details, they weren't full sentences," said Routman, who added that there are only so many ways to say the same thing.

"No one had ever defined paraphrasing for me," said Routman, who said she probably will have to extend her college career by a quarter because she won't get credit for Semester at Sea. "It was one of those things I'd kind of heard; I didn't think of what it was."

Says a lot about OU. While the infractions were minor, she did admit to paraphrasing without citation, which is plagiarism. The punishment, apparently, is to walk the plank, and she agreed to that.

[alcibiades_mystery]

54. If I had a nickel for every student who pretended not to understand plagiarism

:eyes:

Uh, it was a paraphrase. Yeah, well you still have to cite it. Uh, that's "factual." Yeah, well you still have to cite it. Oh, but then my paper will just be all citations! Yeah, well doesn't that tell you something about how well you thought out your argument? Hmmmm?

On and on. A senior? I can forgive these when they're coming from a first-year student, but seniors who roll with this are, 99 times out of 100, simply lying.

Note to college students: You have to cite it. Period. If your paper is ALL citations as a result, it's because you DIDN'T FUCKING WRITE A PAPER.

[depakid]

59. Citing wiki might have been even worse...

at least, if I were the grader....

:o

[alcibiades_mystery]

61. Wikipedia is exceptionally good source on many topics

It's unreasonable to prohibit citing it out of hand.

On the other hand, students who do use Wikipedia ("wiki" alone is just a kind of technology, of which Wikipedia is one), should certainly read the discussion and changes. I often tell them that it is a good place to start their research, but not a good place to finish (or worse, start AND finish).

[Midlodemocrat]

69. And getting better.

In fact, one of near, dear departed DUers was recently embroiled in a lawsuit over a citing at Wiki. Ended okay for him, which is great.

[bicentennial_baby]

70. I don't know a single professor that accepts Wiki as a source

in an academic paper. In fact, it is clearly prohibited on all of my syllabi, regardless of subject.

[Midlodemocrat]

71. I use it regularly for research.

Mainly because the stuff I am researching really isn't of enough interest to generate any false postings at wikipedia.

[bicentennial_baby]

77. Oh, me too, I just can't use it in a paper

I'm ok with that. If I find something on Wiki that I want to use, I just find another source that is acceptable, and use that. Also, most of my sources have to be peer-reviewed, so... :)

[Codeine]

74. Wiki is great

for an initial overview and to point students to the actual sources which they can then read for the real information. I treat it like the intro chapter of a book, or a roadmap. Citing Wiki itself seems a bit silly, however.

[bicentennial_baby]

78. I agree...

As I stated above, I use it, and then go find the info somewhere else. :)

[alcibiades_mystery]

91. Well, now you know one

:-)

[bicentennial_baby]

103. For what courses?

My sources have to be peer-reviewed, from academic journals, generally. Otherwise, they have to be from books. Wiki is not accepted, as it's an easily edited and often not-quite accurate source.

Just curious.

:)

[LeftyMom]

100. Same here. nt

[depakid]

85. No, it's not a credible source on any topic

though as you mention, it IS a good portal, so to speak, from which to learn a little bit and then find credible sources.

The only thing one should cite Wiki for (like the Washington Post these days) is for commentary such as "the authors of wiki say...." followed by one's own comments or some other reputable source of information.

Had the student here done that- instead of getting lazy, she'd have been fine and we likely wouldn't be having this conversation.

[alcibiades_mystery]

90. You're completely wrong

But I'll leave you to it.

[rockymountaindem]

89. Heh. I kind of look at it the other way

I try not to say things in my papers that I can't cite. I like to have at least two or three citations per page, frequently more. That's my definition of a research paper. I don't really get people who think they can write a 10 page essay with 4 or 5 sources. For a 30 page paper I once cited about 50 different sources and had 120+ footnotes.

In my opinion, that's how you prove that you've done your research and that you can pull together facts and arguments from different sources into a coherent narrative of your own. I like to think that's what earned me the frequent "well researched" comments on my works cited pages.

[JI7]

110. i think usually it's just a case of students too bored to list all the

sources. and especially when you have to put it in a certain form.

[bean fidhleir]

86. THOSE are the phrases?

Three disjointed, factual, bare-bones, common-knowledge phrases. Furrfu!

That prof must be used to a secondary-school setting, because that's the only place citations for those phrases might be appropriate - and then only as a learning experience.

[trudyco]

106. I agree - those weren't plagiarism. Schools are getting nuts -nt

[geek_sabre]

112. while the exact phrases seem bare-bones

she suggests in her defense that the rest was "rephrased," which is still plagiarism without citation. Reading those fragments in the context of the Wikipedia entry, it is not coincidence that she referenced the Wikipedia and came up with the exact same terminology. "She said she had been taught to rephrase to avoid plagiarism and that was what she did. The three sentence fragments she quoted verbatim, she said, were factual."

The only way to avoid plagiarism is to cite your sources. Only common knowledge does not require citation. Very little of this movie is common knowledge. Even so, "common knowledge" doesn't give one license to lift someone else's words as your own. Even if there were no verbatim fragments, a citation is still needed.

Shuffling words is not the same as rephrasing. That she'd made it to senior year without knowing what paraphrase meant is reason enough to WALK THE PLANK!

[bean fidhleir]

114. No, honestly, that's a very high-school way of looking at it

If the article is accurate, she was punished for using those 3 phrases rather than for doing something else. But those 3 phrases are stylistically trivial and their content is common property via the historical record. They are not the result of individual scholarship and thus she had no obligation to credit them.

[JerseygirlCT]

137. Those are the phrases? Seriously?

Oh yes, original language there. Cannot imagine someone else could use the same words in the same order to say the same things...

[Runcible Spoon]

162. WOW. I would not have docked her for plagiarism given those phrases, if the rest of the paper was

sound. There is a spectrum of plagiarism, and this is at the very mild end. I would not fail a student for that, I would give them a warning and tell the student to re-write with correct citation.

If every student who did THIS was kicked out, the student population in America's universities would drop by 95%. No, I am NOT exaggerating.

[isentropic]

68. I never can find my damn Stradivarius when I need it...

oh,
:nopity:
:D

[Karenina]

75. "ACCOUNTABILITY" is a word

too many seem to have forgotten.

[Taverner]

84. But she LIED LIED LIED

All liars are evil and deserve to be tarred and feathered! :sarcasm:

[Kickin_Donkey]

87. University of Virginia is pathetic ...

they suck at football and Nobel Prizes.

[Danger Mouse]

88. I think that's a LITTLE harsh.

[aikoaiko]

She's an adult -- not a kid. I'm glad the program took it seriously.

[aikoaiko]

93. She's an adult -- not a kid. I'm glad the program took it seriously.

[lame54]

97. talk about a hard-ass...

[tannybogus]

99. I now think we should debate one of 2 things.

1-"How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" Easier than agreeing what plagiarism is maybe. OR

2- The etymology of the word "douchebag" and its effect on Western civilization not to mention DU.

:popcorn:

[crimsonblue]

104. this is a bunch of shit

you know what happens in normal colleges if you violate the plaigarism code with 3 sentence fragments? You fail the class. You don't get expelled. And you don't get thrown off a study abroad program. Fuck pretentious East Coast and South schools that apparently know better than the rest of the country.

[Quantess]

108. You get shanghai'd, that's what.

And taken to Gitmo.
:o ;)

[crimsonblue]

153. touche.

[entanglement]

111. She also experienced the trauma of being surrounded by Grecians at Athens!

:evilgrin:

[BreweryYardRat]

113. What a load of horseshit.

Flunking her for the class would have been perfectly acceptable. Booting her off the ship in a foreign fucking country and leaving her to scrape up the funds for a flight home is not.

And even if that punishment was in the contract for this "study at sea" program, that doesn't make it acceptable. It just means some schmuck in the university administration wanted to be a hardass.

Hope the parents sue.

[taterguy]

115. A couple questions

A) How can a parent sue for something that happened to one of their adult offspring?

B) What damages were incurred?

[LostinVA]

121. A couple answers

1) They can't, but obviously, there are idiots who will try

2) None.

[bean fidhleir]

116. One of the courses I took in grad school was on the subject of standards

We were a little intrigued to discover that the famous J.S.Mill statement about conservatism and stupidity appears to have an analog in academia: the intellectual value available from schools and individual teachers seems to be inversely related to the standards imposed on students. In general, the more mediocre the school, the more rigid the requirements for distribution, academic conduct, and sometimes even living arrangements and dress codes (the fundy schools are exemplary in the latter regard). The philosophy seems to be that, even if the graduates can't brag about the quality of the degree they got, they can brag about how hard it was to get.

[datasuspect]

118. BEST post in this thread

[LostinVA]

120. This post shows you know nothing about UVA

:eyes:

[datasuspect]

124. you keep saying that

what is it that people should know about UVA?

[Midlodemocrat]

126. You know what I'm loving about this thread?

All these people claiming that they would 'sue' or 'kick ass' :eyes: are the very same people who would decry the 'helicopter parent' phenomenon.

It's been very entertaining to watch.

And, I wonder as well if there is a bit of 'me thinks thou doth protest too much' in some of these posts?

[LostinVA]

128. The last thing you said, "The Ex" said the exact same thing on the phone an hour ago

It's just baffling that so many people think contracts signed by legal adults are meaningless.

[Midlodemocrat]

130. Seriously.

The cheating that goes on in high schools is epidemic. The Honor Code needs to be taken seriously. It's important. It's about character and your ability to follow the rules.

I'm not sorry they enforced the Honor Code on this young lady at all. Her choice. Her mistake. Hope it proves to be a very valuable lesson for her.

[depakid]

133. You realize these are the same arguments one hears in support of "zero tolerance"

which is also epidemic in American high schools.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

145. What field is your grad degree in?

[bean fidhleir]

159. Let's call it "cognitive psych"

That's not actually it, but I prefer not to narrow it any further on grounds of privacy.

[LostinVA]

119. They dropped her off in Greece, not Iraq

She knew the rules. She signed the contract. She got caught, and she deserved to be kicked off. UVA has a very strict honor code. This isn't a new rule, by any means. She's an adult who signed a legally binding contract. People here are acting like she's a little kid or something.

I hope her parents tell her she learned a good lesson.

[JerseygirlCT]

122. What happened to the good old "F"?

Kids really need to quit thinking of Wikipedia as a source for reports - that's stupid and dangerous. But knee-jerk reactions like this also do nothing to solve the problem - it's just as lazy from the professor's point of view.

Sit down, talk through the situation, explain why this paper will be marked down. TEACH the student again (obviously the lesson hasn't completely stuck) about proper research and sourcing.

[Midlodemocrat]

129. It's not a 'knee jerk'. UVa has a very strict

Honor Code. One strike you're out. She's not the only kid who got expelled this year for cheating.

I applaud this. If you sign an Honor Code that you won't cheat and if you do you get the boot, and then you get caught and nothing happens? What message does that send? If you can't uphold the Honor Code, don't attend. Ot better yet, don't cheat. No one forced her to go to the SAS.

We have an administration full of liars and cheaters. People cheat on their taxes, their spouses, etc. I'm glad that some schools are taking this seriously.

[LostinVA]

132. And, UVa runs continuous classes educating on what constitutes plaigarism

Both before the semester starts, and at SAS. They have manuals available at all times to educate the students, as well.

The only excuse this girl has are the excuses being made on this thread. She's a senior. There's no way she didn't know the rules.

Do these posters also think it's okay to cheat at their jobs?

[JerseygirlCT]

135. She's not at UVa, though is she?

This was a one-time thing in conjunction with UVa... the rules she'd been taught and the consequences may have been different.

It was an academic violation - if it was anything - and so the penalty should be academic, not being tossed overboard basically.

[LostinVA]

138. It's all outlined in the contract they signed

They are considered UVa students, while at SAS. The credits come from UVa. I know for a fact that is one reason why Semester at Sea wooed UVa. They wanted it to come from UVa, so it had academic legitmitmacy, and isn't just a bunch of rich kids getting fucked up in foreign ports.

The girl knew the rules, and the consequences. The penalty WAS academic. She's an adult, and they treated her as such.

They run classes on plagarism AT SAS. I know that for a fact. I know the librarians that do this.

[Midlodemocrat]

140. Irrelevant. The SAS students have to abide by the host school's

Honor Code, which in this case was UVa. I don't have a drop of sympathy for her. She knew the risks. She signed the code. She blew it. Too bad. Maybe she'll learn something from this.

[depakid]

149. "Maybe she'll learn something from this "

and it will probably be that UVa has no respect for its own procedures and treats its charges with the same contempt that so many high schools around the country do.

[Midlodemocrat]

150. Wow. Does your arm hurt from that stretch?

Check out Semester at Sea's website and educate yourself about the policies.

[depakid]

152. The only stretch I see is in attempting to defend the lack of proportionality

which lies at the heart of zero tolerance policies that UVa and others espouse.

Believe me, it shouldn't make you or your institution proud- as it's something other more sensible folks both here and especially abroad just shake their heads at.

[Midlodemocrat]

154. Um. I went to UCONN.

Which had a similar Honor Code of one strike and you're out. I see nothing wrong with it. Nothing whatsoever.

She knew BEFORE she ever even applied that the UVa Honor Code would apply. It says so right on the SAS website. If she couldn't abide by the rules, she shouldn't have gone. She certainly wouldn't be the first person who couldn't sign a pledge not to cheat.

Cheating is wrong. Cheating on your spouse is wrong, cheating on your taxes is wrong. It's wrong. She knew going into the SAS what the deal was and even though they teach classes on plagiarism ON THE BOAT, she still did it. No sympathy.

And, every single program that takes students abroad informs the families that they may need to bring a child home, whether it is because of injury, or illness or incompatibility. This young lady was a Senior at OU. She knew what she was doing and for her to claim otherwise simply makes her look foolish.

Hate to tell you, she is getting ZERO sympathy here. Virtually every one I know knows of a kid who went off to college thinking that they could cheat their way through just as they had in high school and got the boot before the first semester was even over. It's a serious pledge that kids make when they enroll and they SHOULD be held accountable.

[depakid]

156. Some Americans go to great lengths to rationalize zero tolerance policies

and generally speaking, the more they moralize about it, the more ridiculous that they look.

Seems to me the failure to exercise reasonable discretion most often comes down to laziness compounded by an overdose of Manichean thinking, neither of which are virtues in a lot of peoples' books.

Moreover, as I mentioned in a previous post- it's precisely this sort of mindset that's blinded your criminal justice system to reason, banishing consideration of individual circumstances and resulting in mandatory sentences that frequently fall far out of proportion with whatever offense may have been committed.

That some folks on this thread find that acceptable and have little sympathy people caught up in such systems is once again- hardly an expression of virtue- though it is illustrative of the retributive nature of the society Americans have created over the past 15-20 years.

[LostinVA]

158. Some Americans go to great lengths to justify cheating

[depakid]

160. That's a false dichotomy

the very same kind that we've seen time and again in cases like this.

My bet from reading the article is that had the matter been adjudicated by her peers- which is the standard procedure under the code, the students would acted more responsibly and crafted an appropriate academic sanction that didn't involve dumping the young woman off the ship and stranding her in a foreign country.

:think:

[geek_sabre]

161. my experience

is that students tend to be more strict. I went to one of the (apparently rare) schools that has an honor code that meant something.

I don't know what more the program could do, short of rewarding her dishonestly with a free trip home or a free cruise to the port (since she'd be out of classes). They were in contact with the grown woman's parents enough that they were able to arrange her departure at a relatively safe port. They were in contact enough that her parents had time to arrange the next flight home, which required her and several of her peers to wait overnight. She wasn't alone. She didn't have to hitchhike home.

[Midlodemocrat]

173. You are correct. They are.

Those who are on the Honor Committee's or Boards at various colleges take it very seriously. They don't accept excuses from anyone because they hold themselves to such a high standard of ethics.

[depakid]

188. a "free" trip home?

:crazy:

Did you read the article?

The students quoted were appalled- both at the decision and at the fact that representatives of the institution violated their own procedures!

So another lesson to be gleaned from this is that individual transgressions may be punished by the harshest means available- while institutions are free to disregard the rules whenever it's convenient for them to do so.

Sound familiar?

It's the same rationale behind Guantanamo.

[Marrah_G]

169. It's the entitlement disease

It comes from parents who never had any discipline or consequences for behavior and always insisted that their little Johnnie was an ANGEL. It comes from children being coddled and always expecting a slap on the wrist but no real penalties.

We have a whole generation of these coming of age. The ones I feel most badly for are their peers who will have to deal with their spoiled and coddled asses for the rest of their lives.

They aren't necessarily rich either, plenty of poor parents do the same damn thing.

[LostinVA]

155. I didn't go to UVa either

I went to school in NC, where they had the same honor code.

Midlo is a Yankee.

[Renew Deal]

131. Sounds fair

And the Athens airport is quite nice.

[BlooInBloo]

144. Was the person an adult? Did the person agree to the rules? Did the person break the rules?

That's all that seems relevant to me.

[Midlodemocrat]

147. Hey, I said upthread that I sent kids home from a trip for breaking

the rules. It happens, and as the faculty advisor you have to be prepared to deal with it. And, most importantly, as the parents, you need to be prepared that your kid might screw up.

[knitter4democracy]

163. When I did my semester abroad, I could've gotten kicked out like that.

For more minor offenses, too (it was with the Coalition of Christian Colleges and Universities--major behavior code).

She should've cited it, plain and simple. If you read it somewhere, no matter where, you cite it. If you paraphrase it, you cite it. She's a college senior and should've known all that long before now. I do agree that those phrases seem pretty innocuous, but where did Wikipedia get them? Chances are, from a legitimate source. So, she needs to cite that.

Stuck in Greece waiting to get home? She should've taken the chance to travel around a bit first. I would've.

[KansDem]

166. Man! Indeed, these are the times that try men's souls...

WAIT!!! DON'T KICK ME OFF! DON'T KICK ME OFF!!

[woo me with science]

167. A FOREIGN COUNTRY?!!!!!!!

YOU MEAN LIKE HAWAII????!!!!!!!!!

[Midlodemocrat]

174. Worse. Greece. You know how dangerous it is over there.

:sarcasm:

[Romulox]

170. This thread has sussed out the authoritarians around here far better than the political compass test

"Let the punishment fit the crime..."

[Midlodemocrat]

175. No. It's more a matter of adhering to the code which you signed

prior to the ship leaving port in the first place.

Check out the SAS website. It states right there, BEFORE YOU APPLY, that SAS adheres to the UVa Honor Code. UVa students fought to have students from other schools held to the Honor Code just as they were when they were at SAS.

[Romulox]

177. I'm not impressed with a mandatory "honor code" which embodies any "zero tolerance" philosophy

Such are the tools of the mindless on one hand, and the petty, punitive people who control them on the other.

[Midlodemocrat]

178. We disagree.

An Honor Code is not the same thing as a 'zero tolerance policy'. You SIGN the acknowledgement that you will abide by the Honor Code of the institution you attend. If you are unable to do so, don't attend. Go someplace else.

If you lived here and saw the rampant cheating at the secondary school level, you would applaud this. The National Honor Society means absolutely NOTHING in most of these schools. Oh, sure, the grades are there, but Honor? Non existent. It's disgusting and sends a terrible message.

[Romulox]

180. Obviously, a "one de minimis infraction and you're out!" rule is indeed a "zero tolerance" policy

I have two degrees, and I am more than familiar with academic codes of conduct. Moreover, I am no defender of plagiarism.

However, having studied language for some time, it becomes less clear to me that so-called "plagiarism" may occur with only three words. It would certainly depend on the words themselves, and whether the concept they embody is a raw "idea" or the "expression" of that idea. If it is the former, I cannot see how any plagiarism is possible, regardless of whether the three words are the same--that no one owns ideas is the essence of our pedagogical philosophy. The idea of "original authorship" is, of course, juvenile and ridiculous; the day I realized that "we all stand on the shoulders of giants," was the day I became a truly educated person, imo.

That this failure in leadership took place under the policies of a supposedly "elite" institution does not make this any less ridiculous; "zero tolerance" policies were designed to remove discretion (and liability) for primary school administrators. There is a phrase in the law for this: CYA. College instructors should be embarrassed to be saddled with the same inflexible, disproportionate, and unthinking tools/punishments as are given to pre-school teachers.

[Midlodemocrat]

181. I have three. and, I've taught in Universities that have Honor Codes.

I have no problem with what UVa did. I wish all schools would do it. Signing that you won't cheat and then cheating is wrong. It leads to people who cheat on their taxes, cheat on their spouses, cheat in the HOV lanes and the like because they've never been caught.

And, she wasn't the only one to get the boot. THe only reason it even made news is her dadddy is upset. Too bad. She knew the risks. SAS actually conducts classes on what constitutes plagiarism.

And, no, I disagree about it being zero tolerance. Zero tolerance in high schools is the kid who arrives with a bottle of Motrin and gets the boot. The child has no alternative and didn't have an option NOT to attend that school. Honor Codes in Universities are different. A great many schools don't even HAVE them.

[Romulox]

182. Having read the 3 *phrases* (not words) that were the subject of the allegation

I would say that "mindless" is too a word for the administrators that booted her from the program.

The three phrases in question do not embody the unique expression of any concept such that any person could claim ownership of them, imo.

The professor alleged that she used three phrases identical to those on the online entry about the movie: "when the Germans attacked the Soviet Union during Operation Barbarossa," "German speaking minority outside of Germany" and "who had been released from a concentration camp."

These three phrases are unadorned statements of fact, such that they do not "belong" to anyone, and therefore cannot have been plagiarized. It seems to me the essence of the complaint is not really passing off someone else's words as one's own as using wikipedia as an uncredited source. This is certainly a more of a grey area, and probably not one subject to allowing some self-righteous instructor to cast a person off a ship in the middle of a trip... :eyes:

[Iggo]

171. America's punishmet fetish rears it's ugly head again.

"Fuck her! She knew the rules!"

[Midlodemocrat]

176. Yup. She did. And, she chose to break them.

No sympathy. Cheating is rampant at the secondary school level and it is finally coming home to roost. Signing an Honor Code is something that needs to be taken seriously. If you can't abide by the Code you signed, don't attend the school. It's actually pretty simple.

[Iggo]

187. We're arguing two different things here.

I agree she should have been kicked out of the program for breaking the code.

I just had a problem with her being put off the ship in a foreign country to fend for herself.

That's all.

[snooper2]

184. I know, I know..;.

we should have patted her on the back, said it will be okay...

lifted her up by the arms and take her to a nice hot tub to relax and "think about" what she has done...

[On the Road]

172. "Three Phrases from the Wikipedia Summary"?

Is that what passes for plagarism now? I guess you would have to see the details to make a judgment, but it sounds awfully disproportionate.

[Renew Deal]

189. It turns out McCain did the same thing.

But plagiarism is plagiarism, even if Wikipedia is the source.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6621444

[madeline_con]

179. Oh, the horror!

She was "left to fend for herself" in Greece and slept in the airport.


This will go down in the history of WORST Greek vacation stories EVER! :sarcasm: