Did Edwards commit election fraud? That is, did he accept donations while covering up adultery?

[Unsane]

Apparently the affair occurred in 2006, well before Edwards made the decision to officially run for president. I can't help but think he swindled a lot of supporters out their money knowing full well he'd likely have to drop out because of an affair.

[PresidentObama]

1. This doesn't belong in GDP, first off.

Second off, he didn't commit election fraud.

Third off, he didn't drop out because of the affair. He dropped out because it was clear Hillary or Obama would be the nominee.

[BeyondGeography]

2. He paid a no-talent blonde who he also happened to be banging $114K in PAC funds

for "work" that he never made use of.

Nice use of donor funds there...

[thewiseguy]

3. Thats perfectly ok because Edwards is a democrat!

:sarcasm:

[Unsane]

4. I'd sure be ticked had I given Edwards any sort of campaign donation. This affair happened long ago.

Yet he still ran.

[JVS]

9. that makes Spitzer's 80K look like better budgeting

[JI7]

10. Spitzer used the allowance he gets from his dad.

[girl gone mad]

15. And the videos were total crap...

Which they had to pull as soon as rumors of the affair started making rounds because they looked too intimate.

I'd definitely like my donation back.

[Douglas Carpenter]

5. did Bill Clinton commit election fraud by running for President in 1992?

He certainly knew well before he announced his intentions to run that accounts of past indiscretion would almost certainly come to light, which they did.

[Chloroplast]

7. According to the OP, the answer may be yes.

[Egnever]

18. Different times

Communications were not what they are now then. And Clinton didnt pay his floozy from campaign coffers.

[TexasObserver]

19. Two important differences:

1. Bill did not deny sexual relations in 1992 that he later acknowledged.

2. Bill did not stand up in 1991 and tell supporters that he had never messed around on his wife, that he was totally loyal to her, and that all stories to the contrary were lies.

John Edwards knowingly issued lies on which his contributors and supporters reasonably relied when giving John money to run for office. Anyone who relied on his misrepresentations could and should demand he send their money back.

And that doesn't even touch the issue of his putting his squeeze on the campaign payroll, which he should have to pay back to the campaign, with interest, from his personal funds.

[AZBlue]

6. This is really important? Our economy is crashing, we were lied into an invasion, we're

struggling to take back the White House and Congress and this is what you're concerned about?

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. I am scared to death that Americans could find themselves bamboozled into an more devastating war

in the Middle East, setting off a chain of catastrophic events that could likely lead to the collapse of the global economy and a worldwide depression that might even bring an end to the prosperous American life, forever.

Who is sleeping with who among people I do not even know and will probably never, ever know is way, way, way down my list of concerns.

[girl gone mad]

16. Maybe part of the reason..

we have so many problems in this country right now is that we keep electing these narcissists with fuzzy ideas about ethics.

[JeffR]

8. How the bloody hell would that contstitute election fraud?

And why are John Edwards' personal sexual proclivities so obsessively important to you?

[Chloroplast]

11. Thank you!!

We are lapping up the MSM's drivel and for what?

[JeffR]

12. Thank YOU!

I'm so sick of the bullshit here today. At least if I turn on CNN, I expect this sort of crap in advance. I come here precisely to get away from it, but no such luck recently.

[Dr.Phool]

22. You're right.

I couldn't give a good damn if Edwards, Obama, Hillary, or anybody had an orgy on the floor of the Oval Office every night, if they can bring jobs back to America, restore our education system, provide health care, take care of our poor.

This place is starting to sound like the moral majority lately.

[pennylane100]

14. I have no idea if Edwards broke a laws by having an affair

but I wonder how many posts you have made on this site regarding the morals of all the republican nominees and those connected with their staff. I see that you have posted many times (more than me) on this board and if I had consumed one less glass of wine, I would look it up. But for now I will trust that you are just a concerned democratic, thinking of the good of his or her party.

[TexasObserver]

17. He committed fraud upon his supporters, by stealing their $ to pay his girlfriend.

This guy who is filthy rich put his squeeze on the payroll of the campaign.

He used money those ordinary folks gave him to run for president. He broke faith with them, because implicit in any campaign is a trust between the politician and the supporter. Just as his wife has a right to expect his fidelity, so do we.

Election fraud? No. Just plain being a no good SOB fraud.

I think anyone who gave him money should demand it back from him, and they could sue him for fraud in small claims court for the money. I think most small claims judges would grant it, because Edwards was able to get money from the contributor by materially misrepresenting his relationship with his squeeze. He made statements in the press denying the relationship. That was a lie, so anyone who gave him money after that would really have a case for fraud, since he made a key material misrepresentation.

I think contributors should demand their money back from him. He has the money, so he can afford to give it back. He should give it back. Frankly, there should be a class action suit against him on behalf of all similarly situated contributors, and all contributors should be given a chance to become part of the class. In my view, John should have to pay back all his smaller contributors, at a minimum. He lied to them, and he induced them to contribute to him by misrepresenting key facts, the most dramatic of which is his relationship with his wife, and his loyalty to her.

[Orsino]

20. Uh, say what?

Campaign money funneled to his lover? And you want him to pay it back, and not her? :rofl:

[TexasObserver]

25. Yes, it is both simple and elementary.

John Edwards is the candidate. He uses that position to raise money for his campaign from contributors. He has a duty NOT to use the money for his personal reasons. Giving money to his girlfriend is not a proper use of the money. He controlled the funds, and he misused them.

He should have to personally repay the funds, the same as any other embezzler.

[Orsino]

26. What campaign money did he use for personal reasons, exactly? n/t

[Orsino]

27. Oh, this tidbit?

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/?last_story=/politics/war_room/2008/08/08/edwards_payments/

Fred Baron, the former finance chairman of John Edwards' presidential campaign, has now admitted that he paid for Rielle Hunter to move from her home in North Carolina. The move apparently also included former Edwards aide Andrew Young, who has claimed to be the father of Hunter's daughter. But, Baron said, he gave them this money without Edwards' knowledge.

"The money was purely and simply to get them out of North Carolina and to get them into a stable place," Baron told the Dallas Morning News. "They were unable to afford a second home. It was to give them the ability to live somewhere where they wouldn't be harassed."

Baron has also released a statement in which he says, "I decided independently to help two friends and former colleagues rebuild their lives when harassment by supermarket tabloids made it impossible for them to conduct a normal life." He adds, "John Edwards was not aware that assistance was provided to anyone involved in this matter. I did it of my own voilition (sic) and without the knowledge, instruction, or suggestion of John Edwards or anyone else. The assistance was offered and accepted without condition."

If this story is true, it's not an indictment of Edwards. Apparently, no campaign money was involved.

[TexasObserver]

28. Campaign pays lawyer and lawyer uses his own money to pay off paramour.

If you wish to believe that cover story, that is your choice.

I see it for what it is. We'll see where this leads.

[Orsino]

29. That's pretty indirect.

If you want to believe that more went on, and that Edwards had to have been involved in payoffs, that's your right. But calling this "fraud" is premature.

[TexasObserver]

31. It's pretty standard procedure, actually.

I suggest you find out how much money went to the lawyer each month. There are some big numbers. Whether in political matters or business matters, there are times when someone causes a third party to pay attorneys fees to a lawyer, but then that lawyer is really taking care of something else entirely. In this instance, the lawyer gets huge fees from the Edwards campaign, and then wink wink nudge nudge he spends his own money (right!) to fund moving the paramour and baby, or in funding her (blackmail/payoff) expenses.

If you want to believe the version of the story that includes the lawyer essentially saying "I INDEPENDENTLY decided to give them money to get out of town," that's up to you.

Time will tell which version is more likely to be true: the one where John has no idea his close attorney buddy who is being paid by the campaign is going into his own pocket to relocate from the media the ex girlfriend and baby, or the one where he does know.

[Orsino]

33. I would suggest that we hold off on the libel...

...until we find some evidence of fraudulent use of campaign funds.

[TexasObserver]

34. It's not libel.

We have "some evidence" of fraudulent use of campaign funds. Do you know what "some evidence" means in a libel case? Would you like to explain what the term "some evidence" means in legal cases?

Why don't you tell us what you think constitutes a civil claim for libel, and explain how you think the things I have said make a case for libel against anyone?

Then I'll explain why you're mistaken.

[Orsino]

37. Please show me evidence that Edwards misappropriated campaign funds.

So far, it's not there.

[TexasObserver]

38. Sure the evidence is there.

If you choose to close your eyes and cover your ears, that's your choice.

There's a heavy cash stream to Baron for attorneys fees for representing the campaign. Then there's contemporaneous movements of large amounts of cash from the lawyer's personal accounts to the girlfriend and for her behalf. In legal matters, this is some evidence of misuse of campaign funds. You don't have to believe it, but it is circumstantial evidence which supports the conclusion that Edwards used campaign money to take care of his paramour.

Whether the weight of the evidence rises to level that Edwards could be convicted of a criminal statute is doubtful, at this point. Whether the weight of the evidence rises to the level that Edwards could be held civilly liable for breach of campaign laws is an open question, however, since the standard of decision is preponderance of the evidence.

Any attempt by Edwards to sue anyone for libel would necessarily open up Edwards to litigation discovery, which he would have to provide, of his phone records, his travel records, his medical records, his emails, his journals, his diaries, his hard drives, his finances, and all of his interactions with anyone whose purposes related to the girlfriend. He will NEVER sue anyone for libel regarding this matter, because it is certain that all the nasty details he is still hiding would be revealed.

You choose not to believe. That's your choice. There's absolutely no reason to believe Edwards or his attorney have been 100% truthful about this, and they have every reason to lie.

[Orsino]

39. I'd agree tht a campaign attorney using his own money to hide the couple is suspicous.

But there's no evidence to tie Edwards to it.

[TexasObserver]

40. Yes, very suspicious.

Of course there's evidence tying Edwards to it. His fingerprints are all over this. Why would an attorney whose fidiciary duty is to the campaign organization spend any time representing the interests of a current or former campaign worker? How does he KNOW he needs to do anything? If you suppose that Edwards never spoke to him, you've drawn a conclusion few politically astute persons would choose.

[Orsino]

41. I'm not the one making a supposition.

And there is no evidence yet for yours.

[TexasObserver]

42. I've explained what constitutes evidence in a court of law to you.

I have a lifetime in a career that requires a good understanding of what constitutes evidence. I can assure you that John Edwards and Mr. Baron both understand the points I've made and know them to be true.

[Orsino]

43. Your accusation of Edwards does not constitute evidence. n/t

[TexasObserver]

44. I've explained the evidence to you. It's circumstantial, like most evidence of wrongdoing.

You're out of your field of knowledge. You should stick to whatever your area of expertise is.

It's not understanding the elements of a cause of action, or what it takes to maintain a lawsuit, or what constitutes evidence, or what constitutes some evidence, or what a fact question is, or what a law question is, or what damages are, or what proximate cause is, or what detrimental reliance is, or what the elements of fraud are, or why they're all in play based upon the evidence I have mentioned in this thread.

[Orsino]

47. The only evidence is someone else's claim to have financed the move personally.

It doesn't implicate Edwards, and isn't evidence of misappropriation of campaign funds. Quite the reverse, if it can be believed.

[foo_bar]

45. maybe this was a bargain by Mark Penn standards

Less than a month later, she and her video production company, Midline Productions, had a six-month contract worth more than $100,000 to produce a series of videographed "Webisodes" following Edwards on the campaign trail, which included trips to Africa and Iowa. The videos were posted on Edwards' political action committee. They have since returned to the Internet on YouTube.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/08/08/20080808edwards-hunter0808-ON.html

John Edwards' political action committee paid his mistress, Rielle Hunter, $114,000--ostensibly to produce four short web videos for the campaign, ABC News reports. Given that Edwards has now finally admitted he had an affair with Hunter (and, according to the National Enquirer, which first broke the affair story, fathered a "love child"), it's possible that this is the first instance of hush money essentially being laundered through YouTube.

http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/8/john-edwards-affair-hush-money-laundered-through-youtube

"I think it's really important to take a stand," Edwards told CNN while campaigning in New Hampshire. "If you believe in public financing, you ought to be willing to take a stand for public financing." <...>

It represents a reversal for Edwards, who in February had announced that he would not participate in the public financing system. Edwards said at the time that he needed "to have the funds to be competitive."

http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/politicians/edwards/story/719104.html

The Webisodes are the brainchild of Rielle Hunter, a filmmaker who met Edwards at a New York bar where Edwards was having a business meeting. “I didn’t think it was John Edwards,” Hunter recalls, “because the public persona did not mesh at all with the person who was sitting in front of me.” Hunter pitched Edwards on the documentaries as a medium for bringing the “real John Edwards” to the people.

http://deceiver.com/2008/07/28/the-john-edwards-non-scandal-keeps-getting-not-weirder/

[TexasObserver]

48. That $114,000 for 4 videos was just the tip of the ice berg.

If you want to find them, the numbers are out there, but the campaign moved hundreds of thousands of dollars to Edwards lawyer friend, Mr. Baron, who then out of his own personal generosity and never having discussed it with Edwards or anyone connected to the campaign decided to fund hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenditures to set up the ex girlfriend in a big house, then to relocate her once media came chasing.

This is going to get much, much worse, but what we know now is enough to ruin John politically.

[baby_mouse]

21. My GOD what a stupid question.

Let's PUT DOWN the crack pipe and step AWAAAAY from the the idea that someone who could potentially lose an election is "defrauding" his supporters in taking their dosh for that way lies FROTHING FUCKING INSANITY.

[DS1]

23. Well. Now Fox News can get on air and say "Are SOME asking if Edwards commit Election Fraud"

:eyes:


Some morans, maybe

[Dr.Phool]

24. This is one reason I spend most of my DU time on the SMW thread anymore.

[BlooInBloo]

30. Oh gawd. Plz make teh stupid stop.

[dems_rightnow]

36. No kidding

Election fraud???? Gimmee a break.

[JerseygirlCT]

32. Uh, no. nt

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

35. LOLwhut?

[BlooInBloo]

49. I will shamelessly steal that. kkthx!

[krabigirl]

46. you have to be kidding me. What about Bill Clinton then? He was having affairs before being pres.