Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

"Fat discrimination" exists and is bad. That does not make it necessary to crap on thin people.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Firespirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 04:07 AM
Original message
"Fat discrimination" exists and is bad. That does not make it necessary to crap on thin people.
This has nothing particularly to do with anything that happened on DU, but rather, with a pattern I've observed all my life but which has gotten much worse in recent years.

I am of average height, but I have a small frame and my BMI is 17.8. I couldn't be a model in Europe, I guess. Evidently, the assumption is that people with a BMI under 18 are sick in some way. And some undoubtedly are. You'll never see me defending an eating disorder or arguing that someone with a metabolic disease should refuse treatment because it could make her (sorry guys, this post is primarily about women -- there are fewer forces out there bashing you for your bodies) reach average weight. However, not every thin person is unhealthy. I'm one of those uncommon people who can eat whatever I want, however much, and maybe put on a pound or two for the 24 hours immediately following a very heavy meal, but never keep it on. I have had blood work done and have nothing wrong metabolically, except for a tendency toward hypoglycemia because I seem to process carbs very, very efficiently. Whatever the reason for it, it's not causing health problems. Evidently, this is how I am supposed to look.

However, that doesn't stop pop-medical literature from using the heavily flawed BMI to claim that a sub-18 number is "unhealthy" and puts one at an increased risk for all manner of problems, some even going so far as to claim that the underweight are at a higher risk than anyone of having problems, even the obese. This particular pile of crap is all over pop-med websites, a blatant misreading of a study conducted a few years back that looked at longevity of people and determined a correlation with weight. The scientists recognized that being underweight itself was not necessarily causing other health problems, but rather the reverse, and then eliminated various factors from the sample. Smoking was the big one; it can cause artificial thinness, but the weight is not the cause of early death! Other causes that the scientists removed from the sample were cases where there was a pre-existing disease known to cause weight loss (or gain), and those suffering from starvation. When the sample was culled down to remove factors that introduced skew, the results were quite different. They found that being thin did not by itself have any of the risks of obesity and did not lower lifespan. Completely contrary to what is being pushed on unscientific pop-med sites.

Another trend is the push to minimize, to make ugly insinuations about, and even to dehumanize perfectly healthy women. "Real women have curves," I hear. In a similar vein, increasingly I find myself and others like me referred to as "skinny girls," implying that we are not full women. I read about the backlash against thinness, and how it is supposedly always psychologically unhealthy for a woman to desire that, how it is a sign that she is self-loathing and has given in to a sexist culture if she stays thin, because hey, the pop-med consensus is that being thin is bad for you.

It has become rude and unacceptable to tell someone to lose weight, but perfectly OK for chance acquaintances to comment about a thin person, or even say--with no evidence--that that person must have an eating disorder. Why is either all right, unless it comes from a doctor? I've even read about thin women being accosted by complete strangers who grab their wrists and comment about how they "need to fatten up." Anyone who pinched a large woman on the ass and made a remark about it would hopefully get knocked cold. They'd deserve to, at any rate. Why is it OK to violate someone's personal space?

It only becomes acceptable to do this sort of crap if a group is gradually becoming dehumanized. There was a time in the not-so-distant past when the aforementioned ass-pinching was not that uncommon, or unacceptable. Overweight women had been dehumanized. But you don't right a wrong with another wrong.

I'm told that men secretly think thinness is ugly. If this is being pushed, then undoubtedly men are, or soon will be, conditioned to actually think that. I've been told by friends that my "problem finding men" is that I'm "too thin" (funny, I know damn well that the "problem" is some lingering psychological issues from a bad childhood). And I'm bi, so I notice the other side too: In their quest for self-esteem, some "curvier" women have taken a common step of a person who has been victimized, and decided that they must put someone else below them in order to feel better. And with pop-health sites claiming that being underweight is just as bad or worse than being obese, thin women are a ready target. Thus all the judgmental types of comments I described. Women can often be more overtly cruel to each other than men can.

This ugliness started with seemingly good intentions, to make normal weight women accept what they look like and to boost the self-esteem of overweight women. As a feminist, I think that's great, that it is sexist and evil for cultural forces to prescribe a "perfect female body," and that all healthy women should accept their bodies as they are. Key word: all. Defending the self-worth of normal and overweight women does not require taking a collective dump on healthy thin women. I hold no ill will against any person on account of their weight. I have problems with people based on their behavior.

And, finally, just in case anyone thought that this was all a rant apropos of nothing, or a mere hypothetical problem that doesn't really happen, I'd like to mention that the attitudes I have complained about have severely affected my self image. Being told that I must have a major health problem, that I am unattractive to men and women, that I'm a mere "skinny girl" instead of a thin woman, that the only "real women" are those heavier than I, that I have to accept people poking on me to feel my bones, and that I must hate my "real body" (i.e., an imaginary body that is of average weight) or I wouldn't look like this... for YEARS... until recently the combined effect had been a fulfillment of some of these attitudes. Damn right I hated my real body, felt that I was unattractive, spent time and energy fretting over whether I had a metabolic problem, and saw myself as a mere "girl" -- when I wasn't questioning whether I was perhaps transgendered, and NOT really a woman, because of internalizing all this.

NO MORE. They can sell, but I'm not buying it anymore. I urge other healthy and thin women to reject it as well.

There are some men and women who prefer average-sized women. Others like thin women. Some like larger women. Neither group is inherently sexist or (in the case of the lesbians and bi women) self-loathing. It all depends on whether their individual preference is real, or influenced by a sexist media and culture.

Can't we just fight sexism, and the real perpetrators thereof, instead of fighting women? Can't we just accept the great natural diversity of shape in the human body, instead of marginalizing any particular shape? I'd sure like to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. Rec'd.
I get that crap a lot, and I'm not abnormally or unhealthily thin (actually I've but some weight on, and am downright pudgy in terms of what's right for me,) I'm just thinner than the current portly average.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AirmensMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. "current portly average"
doesn't sound like a very kind thing to say about people who are heavier than you.

Why can't we get away from all those labels, from both sides?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. The current average is disproportionately and unhealthfully heavy
Sad, but true. Beating around the bush doesn't change it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. and all this yammering about unhealthy
and diets still do not work.In fact NOBODY KNOWS why people get fat.They guess and assume.Ooh the fat people are all gluttons.Your ignorance is sick,it's bigotry and ignorant.
Shut up already,not all fat people are unhealthy.
Not all thin people are anorexic.

Goddammit I get so tired of stupid fucking people telling everyone that...oooh fat is soo unhealthy..well if being fat is so goddamn unhealthy why are these so called fat people living longer than people did when the majority was average weight/thin?
This fat phobia is a fucking FAD.
An old cultural FAD leftover from the bean fart and health nut shit from the 60's and the religious shame game based on sin,one called 'gluttony'.
I know some fat people way heavier than I am and they do not eat all day,and they eat healthier than alot of normal weight people do..
My moms thin she has a horrible diet..

Maybe you talk shit because you don't wanna admit being fat is NOT as unhealthy as your aesthetics would want it to be because you are a fucking fat phobe?
Phobia of fat people originated during the 20th century and is a recent concept. Fat phobia is a condition in which an individual dislikes being fat and feels irritated to see obese tendencies in other people.
Before twentieth century, fatness was a feature of great admiration especially in women. It was the general belief that women who were fat were prosperous and belonged to the upper strata of the society.

However, after twentieth century excess fat was no longer held in high esteem. Plenteous health then was not a mark of extravagant beauty.

Ugh,fucking bigots.
Here's some links educate yourself.
http://www.bigfatfacts.com/
http://www.lookism.info/eng/spheres.html
http://www.uwstout.edu/soe/jaaacs/vol3/azzarito.htm
http://www.briles.com/articles/gender-traps.html
http://bigliberty.wordpress.com/2008/06/11/moral-panics-moral-crusades-and-the-obesity-folk-devil/
http://www.centralhome.com/ballroomcountry/fat_phobia.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you.
I am also thin. Not unhealthy. I eat what I like when I like and my weight doesn't change. I've had two kids and made myself eat quite a lot so I'd gain lots of weight and have big healthy babies. The weight came off quickly and easily afterward.

I am fortunate though in that people haven't told me I'm unattractive because I am thin. Sadly your point on acceptable comments is spot on. There have been people who do like to comment about my weight. A few have been especially obnoxious. The last couple times I have heard "Are you losing weight?" or "You're so skinny!" from them, I have served it back with "Are you putting on weight?". I must admit though, the only people in my life who say such things tend to be those who have problems with weight gain.

One of the people who takes issue with my weight is always struggling with her own. She's asked me if I "starve" myself and I told her no, that would require self-discipline, a rather weak point for me. Told her I eat when I'm hungry and stop when I feel full. Once we went to a meeting together that was a few hours away. On the way home we stopped at a fast food place for a quick lunch to eat while driving back. We each had one of those meal thingies off the menu and ate them. I felt full and not pleasantly so (that food's not particularly good). Imagine my surprise when she then turned into the Dairy Queen up the road and asked if I wanted anything. I declined. She was a little embarrassed but pulled up and ordered some big ice cream thing anyway and wolfed it down. Yeah, but it's me with the food issues/eating disorder, right?

I am pretty happy with the way I am. While I was pregnant (long ago, my kids are 16 & 19) I did manage to gain lots of weight. I felt awful. Really missed the ease of movement I was so accustomed to. Both times were hot summers, the extra weight made it more miserable. I thought one hot summer should be enough incentive for anyone to try not to be overweight. Ugh. That was horrible. Don't know how people can stand it.

People need to be nicer to each other. We are all very different and yet quite alike. I enjoyed reading your post, could relate to much of what you said.

Julie

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. What's going on is not so much
that you are very thin (and check in with obese people who will tell you many tales of being treated with extreme rudeness in regards to their weight) but that so many people have no boundaries and assume it's okay to tell anyone, stranger or otherwise, about their weight. Or height. Or lack of hair. Or whatever.

A BMI of 17.8 is barely below 18, the low end of what's considered normal. That you look abnormally thin to so many people says a lot about how many of us are overweight and obese.

A while back I saw a photo taken of a high-school group from the mid-60's, and what stood out most to me was that no one in the group was obese, and practically no one was even overweight. It's gotten so normally thin people look abnormal to us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. You & the OP nailed it. Thank you.
At 6'1 & 155 lbs I'm told I'm too thin. The people who make these comments are always folks who'd have been considered overweight 15 years ago. Now they're "normal" and I'm the weirdo. Go figure.

It's nobody's biz what you weigh. And don't ask my kids if Mommy throws up a lot, either. That one REALLY pissed me off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. Why our culture has such trouble accepting that each person is
an individual, I'll never know.

We are obsessed with uniformity. Maybe it is a defense, because our country is so varied. We have nothing uniform that applies to everyone. So we latch onto a physical characteristic that is beyond culture and applies across all races and ethnicities.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. you've nailed it.We have trouble accepting people who fall outside the "norm"
I had gastric bypass surgery,and now am "beautiful" by Madison Avenue standards.It has taught me a lot about accepting myself(my myriad of medical problems after my bypass has been catalogued here for several years).If I had to do it again,I wouldn't.Just as I wouldn't assume a women with a low BMI was bulimic/anorexic anymore(although my colleagues do requently)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. It has to do with the concept of hierarchy
It's the fucking pecking order bullshit, that our sick culture demands we adhere to,that our parents teach us.This is because some humans haven't evolved past the chicken yard mentality yet.They can't be happy unless they got another person down and can painfully peck their self esteem apart peck by peck so they can feel superior to them.Our culture's "glue" is made of fear and abuse BTW..And it is so "normalized" to most people doing it or being hurt by it ,it isn't even seen for what it IS.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Silver Swan Donating Member (805 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
7. Some people are slender
And some people are not slender.

People come in many different sizes, all of which are "normal."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
8. Amen! No crapping on anybody for their size or build. Grow up already, America!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thank you.
I'm 5'6" and 115. That's normal for me. I don't starve myself. I'm not anorexic or bulimic. I don't have "issues" with food. I never even buy "lo-fat" anything if I can help it - I don't think it tastes as good as the real stuff. Why am I so thin? Duh, probably because my parents are, and their parents were, and etcetera going back centuries of thin people on three different continents.

My pet peeve is "No REAL woman is a size 4" or approximations like that. What am I, a Velveteen Woman? Do I have to wait for a little kid to love me enough to make me real?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
12. Something else to add
to this topic.

Both of my sons were rather small for their age while growing up. The older one, especially, tended to look at least two years younger than his classmates. In the end, they both grew to exactly 5'11" (and neither one tops 140, I think). It gave me great satisfaction that they wound up all but towering over classmates who'd towered over them in earlier years, even though height is definitely beyond our control (I'm simply not including growth hormone stuff), unlike weight which is at least partially under our control.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. You are so right!
One of my sisters is very tall and thin; she's always been that way, and probably always will. She takes after our dad, who was also very tall and thin. She's not anorexic, she's not unhealthy, she's not bulimic. She's just built the way she's built.

For years and years, she has been subjected to rude, and sometimes downright mean, comments from people. "You're too skinny!" "You shouldn't wear that with how skinny you are!" "That looks terrible on you!" "Don't you ever eat?" "You need to put on weight!" "You think you're so much better than anyone else because you're thin!" On and on it goes, from people she knows, and from absolute strangers. These same people would probably never go up to a heavy-set person and make rude remarks about their weight, but they think it's perfectly fine to do that to someone who's built like my sister.

This kind of thing makes me so angry, because I know how bad it makes my sister feel, yet they just don't seem to think it's a big deal, because my sister is thin, and apparently they assume that only heavy people can get their feelings hurt.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rebel with a cause Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Oh, I hate to disagree.
People will say a lot of rude things to over weight people. I am sorry for what has been said to your sister, but have heard a lot worse due to my being big. And people have no problem saying things to perfect strangers about thier size, whether it is about being thin or fat. I'm older now and ill, so people pretty much leave me alone, but when I was younger it was pretty bad.

I also have a sister who has never had a weight problem because she takes after my father, and she thinks she is "it". I take after my mother's side of the family, large frame, tendency to be heavy, plus I have a disorder that has caused me to gain weight over the years. I eat less than her, but I weigh twice as much as she does. I have taken a lot of bull from her since my adolesence, when I was a bean-pole and was still told that I was too fat. She does not do so anymore (I'm stay away from her anyway) since doctor's have officially diagnosed the disorder is one of the things that is causing my early demise.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
15. Look-ism,Size-ism is stupid
Edited on Sat Aug-09-08 12:38 AM by undergroundpanther
Fat ,thin, or in between,blond,grey,black, red or brown hair,black,olive, brown, red,or white skin..I don't care,as long as you are a person with compassion and have something inside to give and are willing to share it and have others give back to you.


I am sick to death of fat being demonized,but demonizing thin does not help anything.
Fatness has been blamed for all sorts of 'health issues',and fatness has had plenty of bad science springing up around it and it's all a mess.Nobody knows WHY people get fat,they guess, and assume.Metabolism is only one piece of the puzzle as is food or excercize,some point to bacterial flora in the intestine, others speak of air pollution,inflammation or processed food,but really,nobody really knows..Tell me the advise giver's weight and I can almost guess what kind of unwanted advise they will give me.Thin people are not to blame, unless said thin person gives themselves a superiority complex regarding fat people.The other word for this is arrogant bigotry. Defensive fat people may resent thin bigots but becoming a bigot yourself isn't going to help anything..


Body shapes and sizes are what people have and it's just the way it is.Fact is diets don't work if they did we'd all be at the socially desired weight range. Because we all want acceptance, and to feel worthy of love and to be admired.

Skinny people do have it easier,because thinness is not attached to the new versions of old religious medieval sin called 'gluttony'.
Being thin is not seen as a 'moral failure' like being fat is.however non-anorexic thin people do not deserve to be called anorexic because they are thin,that's just stupid.
any sized person is ok when they are compassionate caring and such, with any weight,what you are as a person who you are is what matters.Really.
Look-ism and Size-ism needs to DIE.The aesthetic bullshit and the bigotries associated with size ism and look-ism interferes with defining what health is and it interferes with sound science and this shit has to stop.

Thinness carries health risks and fatness does too... so whoop de doo.
Simply living life in this rough world in a body that is aging by the hour,that faces many threats from injuries to bacteria to whatever..Life itself carries risks that can hurt you,affect your body,and in case nobody thought about it, we all will die anyway.No matter what we eat or don't eat.It does not matter,we will all get old and our bodies will stop being so healthy and quick,and we will die.
That said, Isn't it silly people are not as focused on living happy life,while they exist? Think of the waste of fretting over our bodies and worrying how they look to other people,or getting twisted up inside over what we think other people think about our bodies? Life is too short for entertaining such crap. But sadly this look-ism/size-ism shit is everywhere in this sick culture and it hurts the emotions and lives of all it touches.I hate it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon May 06th 2024, 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC