Pope to China: Open up to Christianity

[Hugabear]

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/08/05/ap5291714.html

<snip>
Pope Benedict XVI urged China Tuesday to open up to Christianity as he visited the birthplace of a 19th century saint who died as a missionary there 100 years ago.

China's officially atheistic Communist Party forced Chinese Catholics to cut ties with the Vatican in 1951, and the two sides have not restored formal relations. Many of the country's estimated 12 million Catholics worship in congregations outside the state-approved church and often are arrested or harassed.

"It is important for this great country to open itself to the Gospel," said Benedict, who has made the improvement of relations with China a priority of his papacy.
<snip>

That's just what we need - for China to embrace Christianity. The Spanish Inquisition was so great, China should have their very own! :sarcasm:

I can only imagine what a Chinese Christian theocracy would be like.

[tularetom]

1. Me to China: Don't listen to that guy

You think you got problems now? Do not let these people get a foothold in your country.

[The Stranger]

2. Maybe Joe Ratzinger should worry about cleaning his own house before throwing stones at someone else

[spoony]

43. Who is pure enough for your standards to say what needs saying

about Chinese crimes, then? If the US can't do it, as I've seen many posters say, because of our record, and the Pope can't do it because of molesters, then whom would you elect to tell China to STOP STOMPING ON HUMAN RIGHTS? Or do we let it go, because no one is wholly innocent?

[New Dawn]

3. Agreed. Look at what happened when Europe "opened up to Christianity"

The Christians banned our original polytheistic religions, making it illegal to practice them until recently. China has a long, proud, non-Abrahamic history and should not allow the same thing happen.

[Hugabear]

5. I'm sure that the persecution of groups like Falun Gong and other minority religions would get worse

Imagine how zealously China would go after these groups if they were doing it for God.

[Sequoia]

64. And look what Chrisianity did to the Native American population.

Be like us, build a house of wood and plant seeds in sand.

Not just the America's but the WHOLE WIDE WORLD. It was that "Saint" Paul who usurped the position from Jesus's brother James who said that James was to lead. Paul comes along with his "I was struck down in the road by a blinding light" story and then went on to destroy other cultures and demand that women could never be in a position of leadership, had to cover her head, and OBEY her husband. Sure, Paul wrote some snazzy lines, but basically it was to him, a religion of servetude with only a few men calling the shots.

So, New Dawn, where ya from?

[malaise]

4. Ah fugg off

fascist.

[Indenturedebtor]

6. China is not particularly warlike. I hope that it stays that way.

I'm just sayin...

[Virginia Dare]

72. China will not fight us with conventional weapons..

they're not going to have jets up in the air dog fighting us or anything, that's too costly in both money and lives. They're all about cyber war now.

[moggie]

7. Lots of money to be made in China

Like any other CEO of a multinational corporation, Ratzi sees China as a huge potential market. With his brand on the wane in much of the developed world, he has to sell where he can.

I can only imagine what a Chinese Christian theocracy would be like.

You could take a look at the Taiping Rebellion.

[RC]

8. How about opening up the Vatican to Buddhism then!

Or is Buddhism too down to Earth for you?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Middle finga]

10. And China said to the Pope, "No thank you we'll pass on that"

[spoony]

11. How surprising

DUers who have knee-jerk negative reactions to anything following the word "Christianity." Let's see, we have the obligatory "child rape" post. The obligatory Inquisition post...

None actually addressing the point of the article: that the Pope wants people in China to have freedom of religion and not be persecuted for going outside the state church. What a bastard, eh? Wanting diplomatic ties with a country AND wanting people not to be imprisoned for their beliefs.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

12. The scent of a knee-reaction is in the air but...

it emanates not from those who (correctly) link negativity with Christianity.
The origin of the stench that permeates the DU air wafts from a childlike one seemingly shackled to an imaginary god and proud of it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
--Albert Einstein, January 3 1954

[spoony]

13. Further expressing your prejudice does nothing for you

You can rail all you like against religion, but the Pope is trying to get China to stop persecuting people. For this you call him a fascist and me a child, but anyone who reads the article, cares about human rights, and isn't blinded by their own myopia knows the score.

By and by, do you keep that quote on your clipboard or did you actually waste the time looking for it? I'd believe either.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

19. That my relatively innocuous reply...

provoked your adversarial reply I find extremely interesting.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill Hicks on Christianity
I did that joke in Alabama, in Fife, and these three rednecks met me after the show. "Hey, buddy! C'mere! Mr. Funny-man, c'mere! Hey, buddy, we're Christians, and we don't like what you said." "So then forgive me." Anyway, later, as I was hanging in the tree...

[spoony]

22. That you don't know the meaning of the word innocuous

is more telling. Or perhaps the problem is a total lack of self awareness in your posts. In either case, you apparently join most of your fellow posters in being wholly disinterested in the Chinese persecution of people of whom you share a common dislike.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

33. So then forgive me? n/t

[spoony]

41. For what? You've not harmed me.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

63. You take umbrage at all who do not genuflect to...

your imaginary god but proclaim that it does you no harm. I have no reason or desire to harm you though I will admitt that your contradictions have aroused my curiousity.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Religions play bare-knuckle rough all the time, while demanding kid-glove treatment in return.
--Salman Rushdie

[spoony]

69. ?? I honestly have no clue what you're talking about

I take umbrage at governments who take groups of people and systematically harass and arrest them. I don't recall asking for genuflection. Perhaps some other poster who understands Noise can decipher your last few posts and fill me in.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

74. Honestly? To my, "That my relatively innocuous reply..."

you respond with, "That you don't know the meaning of the word innocuous is more telling..."

You deliberately omit "relatively" and launch an insulting attack. Honesty does not seem to be your strong suit.
To continue responding to your obfuscation is a total waste of my time, goodbye.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race. I cannot, however, deny that it has made some contributions to civilization. It helped in early days to fix the calendar, and it caused Egyptian priests to chronicle eclipses with such care that in time they became able to predict them. These two services I am prepared to acknowledge, but I do not know of any others."
(Bertrand Russell / 1872-1970 / Has Religion Made Useful Contributions to Civilization? / 1930)

[Dorian Gray]

70. See...

I don't see that at all, to be honest. What I see is that a lot of people think are saying nasty things about the Pope's statement without looking at the HORRIBLE RECORD that the CHINESE GOVERNMENT has regarding the freedom of religion in China. They persecute the Tibettan Buddhists. They persecute Falun Gong. They persecute Roman Catholics and other groups of Christians.

The Pope is right in this instance. People should not be afraid to worship as they choose. In any nation. He is in China now, so he addressed their record.

I understand not trusting the Catholic Church because of the various scandals that some of the leadership has been involved in, but in this particular instance, he (The Pope) is right on the money.

And no, I do not think that the Chinese should all convert to Catholicism. They should feel comfortable to be whatever religion or non-religion they want to be. Without fear of reprisals from the government.

[Zhade]

28. How DARE you bring up human rights while defending someone who hid those who raped children.

This is someone who also declared GLBT folk and atheists are evil and allows his underlings to circulate the LIE that AIDS passes through condoms, causing horrific amounts of suffering in Africa.

He wouldn't know the first thing about respecting human rights.

[spoony]

38. More bullshit, this is about Chinese Christians.

You can wipe the fauxrage from your keyboard now.

[mudesi]

66. Actually, no

It's about the pope telling China to embrace Christianity, and the previous poster pointing out that this pope has not done much to help gay rights, nor the fight against AIDS in Africa.

[spoony]

71. I didn't realise there was a checklist

And that some things had to be done before telling a rotten government to let their boot off the throats of minorities. Please publish, for all our edification, the order in which these things go. And the qualifications you must grant him before he's allowed to say something about this.

[mudesi]

73. If he had said religion in general, there would be no problem

China ought to embrace religious freedom, which is a human right.

The pope didn't say that. The people told China to embrace Christianity only. While I understand why the leader of the Roman Catholic church would say that, it doesn't make him right. You agree with me, apparently.

[Rage for Order]

18. It is quite laughable, isn't it?

Or, it would be laughable if it weren't so sad. "Progressives" my ass

[spoony]

23. Quite so

They kind of give themselves away when they're too busy lavishing scorn to care about persecuted people.

[Zhade]

27. Total horseshit, of course. As if Ratzinger would welcome OTHER religions getting a clawhold there.

Stop whining, you're not oppressed.

[spoony]

36. I'm not, Chinese Christians are. That's the point.

That's what the Pope is saying. Nothing about his nor my oppression nor anything about a "clawhold." For people who call themselves brights, you sure do act dim.

[TexasObserver]

50. I like to call him ... Ratzo, the Nazi Pope!!

This guy was in charge of kicking people out of the church for advocating birth control or supporting homosexual rights. He may not be a literal Nazi, but his whole life has been about being a fascist who uses power to enforce regimen.

[Dorian Gray]

39. Thank you

I don't always agree with Spoony, but I agree with you here.

[Seeking Serenity]

48. Thanks for posting that.

I noticed that, too. Mention the word "Christianity" around here and the knees start jerking wildly.

Heaven forfend that anyone try to tell China to be more respectful of human rights, one of which is the right to worship (or not) as one chooses, not as the state dictates.

[isentropic]

68. Fuck a buncha popes

:rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Uh-huh. The Catholic Church has such a long history of toleration and freedom.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[RB TexLa]

15. The ability and freedom to worship or not worship as you see fit is a basic human right

A government that prevents it's citizens from a religion of their own choosing is no better than one that forces a religion of it's choosing on it's citizens.

[Township75]

16. If Obama is open to Christianity and faith, should we want China to be?

?

[Skittles]

17. NO

[spoony]

24. You prefer the current system of oppression, then?

[Skittles]

31. christianity is just another form of oppression

[spoony]

35. I suppose I shouldn't expect more from you.

[Township75]

32. Well, I bet Obama does want China to open-up to Christianity

I am sure if he were asked about it, he would say so.

Obama is clearly comfortable with his faith, with people of his faith and different faiths, and he represents the new Democratic view of Christianity as well as other religions (i.e. they don't belong to the Republicans). I see Obama taking an active role in making sure people from every country can practice their faith.

[SoCalDem]

20. China to Pope: STFU n.t

[JNelson6563]

21. I'm an atheist but I agree with the Pope

I think people everywhere should be free to believe/not believe & practice/not practice as they choose.

Julie

[malaise]

51. Get over it

Young fascist is looking for a few million tithes.

[spoony]

61. Get over what? Human rights?

Btw, have you succeeded in shutting down public free speech in your area yet, or are people still wantonly flaunting their rights in your face?

[JNelson6563]

78. Catholics don't tithe

Perhaps you are thinking of Mormons.

Julie

[Sanctified]

25. I don't think the Pope is asking for a Theocracy, I think he is just asking

the Chinese Government to allow Chinese Christians to practice their faith without the fear of being thrown into prison.

[Zhade]

26. Come on, Ratzinger, those poor people already have ONE oppressive authoritarian regime over them.

They don't need another.

[Monk06]

29. And the first Papal emissary to China will be......... (drum roll) ........

Cardinal Rosalio Castillo Lara

[ToeBot]

30. The Pope then espoused the benefits of the Rhythm Method of birth control...

China reportedly laughed in the Pontiff's face.

[Enthusiast]

47. This is a relevant issue.

The Catholic Church takes the position that oral birth control is a sin, a very serious sin. This is not exactly too compatible with the current Chinese population and concern for the environment.

I don't blame Chinese leadership so much. Not that it would not be ideal to allow all points of view, and all religions. But all they need is a bunch of end timers jacking everyone up. It would be an invasion of sorts. Think of all the nut jobs that would descend on China pushing their specific brand of Christianity while telling anyone that would listen how wrong everyone else is.

[Dorian Gray]

49. Their problem with Catholicism

is not their stance on birth control, but rather the authority that Rome has.

Though, to be sure, their stance on birth control and population control is in direct opposition to China's.

[Popol Vuh]

34. Me to China

Look at what the Christian church did to my people in the name of their God against us "heathens".

[Dorian Gray]

37. To be fair

he's not advocating a theocracy. He's advocating Roman Catholicism not being illegal or persecuted.

And yes, Roman Catholics are routinely arrested for worshipping in churches that are not designated Chinese Catholic churches.

[TexasObserver]

40. China to Pope: "STFU old man!"

The Pope ragging on the Chinese. There's comedy!

If he would just worry about cleaning up the cesspool he presides over, we'd all be a lot better off. In fact, all these religious guys would do well to turn all their attention on themselves and their flocks. That will keep them all busy as long as they are on this earth.

[Seeking Serenity]

53. Got it. No one can ask or suggest or tell anyone to do anything

unless they are absolutely pure, have no dark spots in their history whatsoever.

Probably time for this board, and others like it, to close down, then.

(edited to correct typo)

[TexasObserver]

54. No, just not former Nazis who head worldwide pedophile protecting institutions.

The Catholic church has done more harm in the world than any organization since the beginning of time. It's an international crime organization, with the benefit of having followers who think it's a church.

[Seeking Serenity]

56. Your prejudice and bigotry is duly noted.

[TexasObserver]

57. I'm rubber, you're glue.

Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

No, you are!

[DrCory]

77. Ratzinger was not a member of the NSDAP N/T

[Bill McBlueState]

42. I'm all for religious freedom

It would have been refreshing for the Pope, as a world relgious leader, to say something about religious freedom in general. But instead we get the typical arrogance of Catholic leaders, pushing only for their own narrow brand of religion to be accepted.

[eshfemme]

44. Yeah.... somehow such a request from Ratzi fills me with derision.

First of all, it's pretty futile to even request this of China when they are pretty well known for not being so keen on religions. Secondly, the Catholic Church's badly damaged reputation and bloody history is NOT helped by the fact that the current head of it looks like a sinister old man. I'm sorry but that's what he looks like. Maybe it's because I miss the late Pope John Paul as he was the very image of a dear old saint but it really doesn't help the contrast that Pope John Paul made with... Ratzi.

Also, has China even listened to anything that someone's suggested or urged them to do? They've been exceptionally Bush-like in ignoring anything they don't want to hear or do and continuing on their own jolly way. It's just extremely naive and impractical to expect the Chinese government to suddenly reverse a long standing tradition just because the Pope asked them to.

[Dorian Gray]

62. In response

to your first sentence: "First of all, it's pretty futile to even request this of China when they are pretty well known for not being so keen on religions."

Isn't that sort of the whole point?

[DailyGrind51]

45. China already has an "inquisition", against the Falun Gong.

A "theocracy" of any kind in a politically repressive atheistic China which only seems to worship Western currency and Middle-Eastern oil.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

46. The pope is right, for once.

I don't want the Chinese to become Christian, but I do want them to have the right to do so, and to proselytise and worship freely.

[paparush]

52. China to Pope - STFU... now watch this drive. nt

[TexasObserver]

55. Nicely done, sir!!

[tammywammy]

58. The Chinese people should have the right to practice Christianity if they so choose

I'm glad I live in the US where we do have the Freedom of Religion.

[Occam Bandage]

59. The Pope is entirely correct. The Chinese people ought have the right to be Catholic if they want.

[otherlander]

60. STFU, pope.

[LBJDemocrat]

65. Christianity sucks, dude

Fuck Christianity. Go China! You tell those fascists!

:sarcasm:

[mudesi]

67. One intolerant government telling another intolerant government what to do

How ironic.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

75. Especially so when Jesus freaks are a part of the equation! n/t

[Radical Activist]

76. It couldn't be much worse than the current government.

Anything that would help China be less homogeneous right now would be a good thing.

Although its a little hypocritical considering what the church has done to keep other religions out of countries they influence, even in the recent past.