My son's friend may end up doing life, because he's an alcoholic & stupid.

[SoCalDem]

This guy was a jock , like my son.. they grew up together, went to school together.

To look at the guy, you'd swear he was an actor or model.. Great looking, tall, blond, friendly..

He grew up a kid of a single mom, an alcoholic herself. Many times she'd "forget" to pick him up after school, so I'd give him a ride home..

Because he grew up kind of poor, when he started down the road of alcoholism-meets-the law, he had pretty bad legal representation, and of course when young men are alcoholics, sadly, they drive..

DUI is reprehensible, but alcoholics don't think like the rest of us when they are drunk. He got his first DUI when he was 18 & a few months.... To be fair, they did give him a break (probation & a fine), but within a month, he did it again, and ended up doing THREE years in Corcoran (not a very nice prison, as prisons go)... While there, his friends (My son and another friend) stayed in touch with him, encouraged him, even visited him from time to time..

He got out at 21, after many close calls in prison, but was determined to quit drinking for good.. He got a job, a girlfriend, and made real progress until he was 25.. For some insane reason, he got a car and it was not long before he started feeling "normal", and thought he could "have a few beers"... You know what happened next.. It wasn't more than a few months after he got the car, that he was stopped again, and blew just enough to end up back in jail for a year..... They called it probation violation so it would not be a felony...

He did his time, completed the rehab they had there, and completed the halfway house time once released.

My son helped him find a job ...a great job $32.00 an hour (installing fire systems in high rise construction)..

It looked like he finally had it all together..had an apartment, a good job, and was taking classes at a local college.. He even managed to NOT drink at our son's wedding a few months ago.. We all thought he had it made this time..


Until last weekend..

The guy who shared his apartment, got fired from his job, and since this guy was his "ride" back and forth to work, he bought a car again.. He was stopped for expired tags and had been drinking enough that they hauled him in again..

Our son & his other friend went to court (for moral support) for his sentencing today.. 3-6 years for this second felony, and now he's one step away from Life in prison if he does it again, after he's out again.. He's 28, and has never had a violent "event"..never used a gun, or robbed anyone..he's always worked when he could find work, but his damned addiction to alcohol and his stubborn unwillingness to refrain from driving, may end up costing him his life..

I have no sympathy for people who drink & drive (my best friend's son was killed in a DUI accident...he was a passenger), but I just cannot wrap my brain around the fact that someone would throw away their damned life for "a few beers"...

[Faygo Kid]

1. Sad story. I hope it has a happy ending.

Got popped once myself, nearly 20 years ago. Never again.

Tough break for him. Driving with expired tags wasn't too smart, either. Not much else to say - three to six years is a lot of time, but that's how it is now.

At least no one else has been hurt.

[crikkett]

2. It's very sad. and very sad that no reasonable public transit was available. n/t

[Ron Green]

3. I agree. A drunk without a car is not very dangerous, but the ubiquity of cars

(because of the lack of other ways to go) is dangerous for everybody.

[demobabe]

4. It makes you wonder

...why they just wouldn't revoke his driver's license permanently? Clearly he has issues, but if he continually shows he will drink and drive, then he shouldn't have a license. Why put the guy in jail? They also have those things that make you blow into an alcohol meter before it allows you to drive your car...

[SoCalDem]

9. Ooops.. I left that out.. He did NOT have a license

That's why the car was not registered.. He had just bought it and had not yet jumped through the hoops to get his license back..my bad :(

[aspergris]

52. you are kidding me right?

How many people do you think I have arrested for the ir third, fourth, fifth DUI who have revoked or suspended driver's license?

This guy has shown he will make the decision to drive drunk over and over again.

But he's not going to step behind the wheel drunk because his LICENSE ISN'T VALID?

That's going to stop him, when the knowledge that he was already drunk driving didn't?

Also, note that statistically speaking - the *average* chronic drunk driver does so about 70-80 times a year.

This guy has been CAUGHT several times. Unless he is just INCREDIBLY unlucky, that means he's been driving drunk MANY times more.

I'm all for probation for first time offenders. But people who choose to repeatedly violate the law and place us all in danger don't get a lot of sympathy for me.

[demobabe]

89. I'm not talking sympathy, well maybe I am - sympathy for ALL of us

I'm sure you've seen PLENTY of people doing stupid things, and it takes a seriously emotionally strong person to do what you do. You have my admiration.

Since she said the guy had recently bought a car, I just assumed the guy had a driver's license (which he didn't, so I don't understand why he bought a car in the first place). I've dealt with many alcoholics, and it's so sad the way it takes hold of them, and some truly are incurable.

Just from what I've seen, jail doesn't do a very good job at rehabbing anybody, regardless of the crime or drug. And from what I know, is that it's PROFITABLE to put people in jail, because of the federal money they receive per prisoner. Big business.

Yeah, drunk driving is bad. Smoking pot is bad. Stealing is bad. Lying is bad. Eating meat is bad... and on and on. While I don't have any really great solutions for what we should or shouldn't do, one thing I do know is that our society is so clamped down that we have a culture of chronic depression and anxiety.

Maybe if we had a decent healthcare system that ensures Americans get the care they need, this guy could be institutionalized and treated properly for his psychological disorders he's self medicating for?

As for prisoners (and everybody in general), I recommend a book by Bo Lozoff, it's called "We're All Doing Time." Check it out at the Human Kindness Foundation. Being in law enforcement, you might already be familiar with this book. If not, get some copies for your inmates.

http://www.humankindness.org

[Marrah_G]

5. It's hard seeing someone you care about throw their life away

Perhaps knowing he will face life in prison will force him to change his life. Encourage him to seek help. If he doesn't and he continues to drink and drive, then the rest of his community is safer with him behind bars.

Even though he has never been violent, each time he got behind the wheel he took the chance of taking a life, or many lives and that is violent, the car is a weapon.

A known drunk driver killed my 14 year old cousin, he was wise enough to hide in a motel until he was sober. Due to the state laws at the time, his past offenses could not be used against him. He got (I think) 3 years, the max, for manslaughter and is already out, free to kill again.

Just try to make him see he needs to get help before he kills someone.

[Warpy]

6. It's horrible to contemplate, but prison is his best chance right now

He knows he's got a serious problem. He knows what makes him slip. Being locked up for a long period and in the recovery they offer in most prisons has the possibility of getting him enough sobriety-and maturity-under his belt that he won't slip again.

Some serious addicts need incarceration to get them totally dried out and clean. Alcohol is especially tough. I've heard the same story from many different people about how being sent to prison and taking advantage of recovery programs inside is what finally saved their lives.

I hope for the best outcome for your friend, but he really needs to be taken off the street while he's in the early stages of recovery. If not, he could very easily end up killing someone.

[gateley]

7. Unless you're an addict, it's impossible to understand the power the addiction

has over you. It goes beyond intelligence, judgment, resolve. It's almost as though you're possessed, and this THING runs your life.

I've been sober for about 20 years and I realize that for some reason -- and I don't know how or when exactly it happened -- I don't view drinking (or drugs) as pleasurable any more. I don't even have the desire for just one. It's difficult to describe, but it's as though alcohol and drugs just aren't an issue in my life now, and it seems others are "fighting" it for as long as they're sober.

I'm so sorry to hear this about this young guy. I wish he was one of the lucky ones like me.

[Laurab]

33. I'm another lucky one.

I was 23 years sober in May. I haven't ever really struggled with it since I realized it was a disease. When I was in the throes of it, I could have easily killed my young children, or some innocent bystander, because I thought I was okay to drive once or twice. I got a DWI, and I'm forever grateful, because it saved my life, and who knows who else's life.

It's true no one can know the hold alcoholism has over a person unless they've experienced it themselves, and I don't know why some people just can't recover, no matter what, but I've lost my share of friends who for some reason or other just couldn't stay sober, and I'm grateful everyday that I have.

It's sad to say but prison is probably the best place for this young man - hopefully he's also getting help for his disease. A car in the hands of an alcoholic is a weapon that so often proves fatal, and little things like having a license don't bother a lot of alcoholics who've been drinking. Even having accidents in which someone has been killed hasn't stopped some of the people I've met from doing it again...

I hope he finally gets it - he'll surely have time to think about it now - I just wish there was a magic cure for this awful disease.

[gateley]

34. I think prison might be what it takes.

I used to see a drug/alcohol counselor and she'd say "just stay clean for a year, then you can decide if you want to use again." I'd :spray: A YEAR? Sometimes I couldn't stay clean for a day!

She told me about another client who racked up the DUIs and every time they'd send her to a treatment center. Finally -- it was like the 7th DUI (the laws weren't as severe back then) she said I am NOT going to another treatment facility -- I'd rather go to jail. And it was the full year in jail, the time away from the booze combined with the programs in prison, that finally got her sober.

It is just so horrible to live that way, to have that feeling of powerlessness, and to SUFFER when you're trying to stay clean and sober. I hope this will work for him.

And I'm so happy for you! :hug:

[Laurab]

36. And I'm happy for you!

We truly are lucky ones. :hug:

My husband celebrates 30 years on August 4th - he got sober at 24 - I'm not sure I could have done that - then again, I didn't cross the line until I was in my late 20's, but I crossed it FAST.

I hope it works out for this young guy, too - I can honestly say I sometimes feel guilty about how easy it's been for me, when I watch my friends struggle. I also know never to take sobriety for granted, and I have a lot of reminders around me of what I DON'T want to be.

[GreenPartyVoter]

99. That's it exactly. The compulsion to participate in addictive, destructive behavior is

unreal. I've always wished that we were a telepathic/empathic species so that non-addicts could "experience" what it's like. (Ditto for people who think mental illness is no big thing. Here, try being in the head of someone in a major episode or breakdown. Now maybe you'll "get it". *sigh*)

[glowing]

8. Alcoholism is a disease.. AND just think, if the United States had

public transportation that people could actually rely on, perhaps that friend would not have gotten a car and taken the chance to drive... It does seem stupid.. but understand that an addiction is just like having diabetes or heart disease. You cannot wish it away; just try your best to keep yourself healthy and away from that kind of influence. Its hard too, especially in our society that doesn't understand that addiction is a social and medical issue. It is not something we should be using law enforcement and jail sentencing to treat. It doesn't work.

I hope things get better for this person. The ills of this society is disgusting. AND repigs do absolutely nothing but make people affraid and unwilling to help one another. Its going to take some time to erase the mentalities that have been put on the plate for a long time.

[aspergris]

53. alcoholism is a disease

drunk driving is a crime.

they are two entirely different things. I have total sympathy for alcoholics. In my state, it's not even illegal to be drunk in public (our supreme court basically said it's your constitutional right to be drunk in public).

But I draw a sharp distinction between alcoholism - a disease. Getting drunk - a symptom of alcoholism.

and driving drunk - a conscious choice.

And I have empathy for first time offenders. After that, sorry. I have WAY more empathy for the victims of drunk drivers.

ADDICTION is a social and medical issue. DRUNK DRIVING is NOT.
They are NOT the same thing.

I agree we should NOT be using LE and jail for addiction. (and I am against the war on drugs).

Personally, I think you have the right to get drunk every night and remain drunk 24/7 if you so desire. It's your life, and your liver.

You have NO right to drive drunk

[JonLP24]

118. I'm an alcoholic

There has been quite a few times where in a sober, clear, conscience mind, I give my keys to a friend "I plan on drinking tonight, don't let me have those keys. Then I would get a 3-5 beers in me and say "Give me those keys, I can control myself, I can drive no problem" Bad judgment is a sign of a PROBLEM. It is related.

You can find him, throw the book at him, make sure he doesn't get a driving job for several years, send him to court ordered treament and AA and the individual goes out and does it again. He may have a realization in treatment but release him around his old friends and an environment. Or a euphoric recall of the pleasurable effects during a football game then has to drive him. Believing he isn't like everyone else and he is "real" beer drinker that can control himself.

or

Someone who drinks heavily suddenly blacks out and without realizing takes his vehicle somewhere going someplace he doesn't even remember kills someone and gets a DWI.

I agree drunk driving is bad but a drunk that is sober will agree drunk driving is bad. Like any drug addict already knows from the commercial of the eggs frying that drugs mess up your brain, that doesn't matter to them. They know perfectly what they are doing is bad, going into debt, hurting immediate family relationships, over selfishness and they still use. Many addicts have that wakeup call but many relapse as well.

What I'm pleading is not excusing it but understand bad judgment and even breaking the law regarding to alcohol and the illegal drug trade especially by those with no job to afford their drugs.

People will throw there lifes away and punishing them doesn't help them at all, you just made whatever they have going on that much harder.

[ZenKitty]

123. The difference, my friend, is that ...

there are those that are throwing their life away whereby it has no effect on the random person in their path...read hanging at the house and doing whatever mind bending substances one desires.

To get behind the wheel while under the influence is a conscience choice.

[depakid]

63. In another city or another country with public transportation, he'd have had a better chance

whether he'd have still driven or not- no one can say, but in Southern California- this was pretty much bound to happpen.

Kinda makes you wonder how many DUI's are prevented in cities that have options like light rail, decent busses or even more cabs available.

[Sal Minella]

10. I think it's not so much a matter of "a few beers," as a matter of having to admit

"I'm not normal." After a period of not drinking, we think, "Oh, I can probably handle it now" and we're gone again. (Insanity = doing the same thing over and over expecting different results).

I heard a guy say, "I'm allergic to alcohol -- it makes me break out stupid" and that about sums it up.

It was difficult for me (as a middle-aged woman) to admit I was completely at the mercy of alcohol -- for a young man this would be exceedingly difficult, facing up to the fact you can't lead a "normal" life.

But I've talked to a 17-year-old guy who had been through treatment and several months of sobriety by the time he turned 16. I hope he's still sober.

People who find out they're allergic to peanuts tend to give up eating peanuts, but for some reason, us alcoholics keep trying to make the result come out different this time...

Amazingly, I didn't drink yesterday. And this has happened every day for nearly 8,000 days in a row now. Hanging around with friends who also don't drink is a big part of successfully avoiding the problems.

[SoCalDem]

11. Wow!! 8000 days.. that's wonderful

I guess if you are motivated, it can be done.. :)

[Sal Minella]

14. Wanting not to die, wanting not to kill someone else = big motivator!!!

Got by with a lot of help from my friends. The desire to drink left me long ago, but I know it will immediately take over my life again if I give it half a chance, i.e. "I think I can handle a wine cooler now." No. I can't.

[yardwork]

43. That's it.

I've known people who finally got sober in jail. Not their first time in jail, either.

Congratulations from one with a little over 3,000 days - one day at a time.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

12. Growing up poor doesn't pre-dispose you to addiction, DNA does.

And addicts relapse, that's just real life -- whether you feel any sympathy or not, that's what their brains do.

Addicts never "have it made". Ever. Expecting an addict not to drink at a wedding and to not react to the alcohol around them eventually is like sitting in a vat of chickpox and not expecting an itch.

I don't understand how hard this is to understand.

[Zookeeper]

16. I think she was saying that growing up poor kept him from

getting off the hook, legally, like a lot of rich kids do when their parents hire expensive lawyers to represent them. (I personally know of young man who, basically, got away with murdering his wife because his parents were rich and influential enough to hire the "right" lawyers. They also prevented the wife's parents from ever seeing their grandchild again.)

(Hi Beth! :hi:)

[SoCalDem]

18. Yep.. that was my point.. He had a public defender

he actually met the lawyer the day before the trial..

I am not excusing what he did...just that at an early time in his life, he might have benefitted from some real alcohol-treatment..but then maybe not..

I know how tricky addiction can be,.

It's just sad that he's throwing his life away..

[JonLP24]

119. You're right mostly it is heredity but Environment plays a huge factor as well

[Zookeeper]

13. Addiction causes so much heartbreak for everyone.

I'm dealing with this with a loved one. It's very, very hard to understand why they can't just stop in the face of the serious consequences.

The flip side of this is that one of my DH's co-workers and her husband were killed by a drunk driver last year. They were riding a motorcycle. Unfortunately, the drunk driver has been out on bail since the accident and hasn't even had a court date yet.

[Freddie Stubbs]

15. Alcoholism isn't his problem, its his insistence of driving while drunk which is his problem

I and many in my social circle drink, a lot. I very well may be a functional alcoholic. I'll slow down someday, probably once I settle down with a wide and kids. But in the 14 years which I have been drinking legally (and few years before that), I have had enough common sense not to drive after drinking more than one drink per hour, no matter how impaired my judgment was.

[Leftist Agitator]

41. Amen.

Alcoholism isn't his problem, stupidity is.

This functional alcoholic agrees with you 100%.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

62. Ding ding ding!!

Unfortunately, many "anti-drunk driving" programs are hellbent on stopping ALL drinking.

[aspergris]

74. and they are wrong

But note that if and when you get caught drunk driving, they CAN take your freedom away such that it's a violation of probation to even drink - driving or not

Moral of the story: you can get as drunk as you want as often as you want. That is 100% a personal choice. Not the nanny state.

But don't drive.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

79. I agree with that.

And if the government REALLY wanted to stop drunk driving the solution would be simple. Require breathalyzer devices in every car. Some crafty people would be able to find their way around them but drunk driving would be cut down drastically. But they'll never do that. It would stop the DUI gravy train.

[aspergris]

83. it would also (arguably)

be an unconstitutional civil rights violation.

I think a good case could be made for both sides, fwiw.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

86. DUI checkpoints are a heinous violation of the 4th Amendment

But SCOTUS upheld them back in 1990.

I'll just bet you that some of the same DUers who were screaming hysterically over FISA and wiretapping have no problem with stopping every vehicle to make sure the occupants are sober and wearing seatbelts. It's to keep us safe, you know.

[aspergris]

88. That is ARGUABLY true. In my state, they ARE unconstitutional.

In my state, they ARE a violation of the state constitution, which has a right to privacy (vs. the 4th which just mentions unreasonable searches and seizures).

I've read the case law on DUi roadblocks, and I think it's arguable. My main problem with them is the non-particularized suspicion. That's (supposedly) overcome by a # of factors, but they leave me uncomfortable.

Regardless, in my state, they are unconstitutional.


Here's my state's version of the fourth.

SECTION 7 INVASION OF PRIVATE AFFAIRS OR HOME PROHIBITED. No person shall be disturbed in his private affairs, or his home invaded, without authority of law.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

80. BTW, why is it that cops are some of the worst drunk drivers?

Is it because you guys don't like to arrest your own? On the rare occasion that you see a cop get busted for DUI it's because he killed or injured someone.

[aspergris]

84. actually, I know several cops

who have been busted for DUI. I don't know whether the stats support that they are "some of the worst".

But they certainly commit a fair %age of dui's.

I work with a # of cops who have DUI's. They got (as they should have) suspensions, had to go to classes, and if they get another - they get fired.

Works for me.

[madeline_con]

17. Will he never be able to have a driver's license?

Has he tried anabuse (sp) the stuff that makes you sick if you drink?

I'm sure his formative years contributed to his pain, and his mom modeled how to dceal with it.

I quit drinking years ago, thank God. I was such a mean, miserable drunk. I finally realized my child needed a sober, normal mother, so fo some reason, I was able to quit. Looking back, I realize a lot of the misery was the CNS depressant properties of the alcohol.

I wish your son's friend the best. It's a hard road and no one can make someone stop, thay have to be ready. :(

[izquierdista]

19. Another side effect of the car culture

In Europe, there always seems to be a neighborhood bar within walking distance. Even if you want to splurge and go uptown, the public transportation runs late on the weekends and you can take the bus, trolley, or metro back home. But not in the good ol' USA. No, in the USA, you have to drive from home to work, shopping, entertainment, and also the bar. So with this wonderful urban planning, when drunken people exit the bar, of course they get in the car and fire up the engine.

[jdlh8894]

22. Do realize

All of Europe would just barely cover one half of the eastern seaboard of the US?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. The square mileage of Europe would fit about the same space. So what?

That's no excuse for inadequate transportation and inefficiently designed communities.

[jdlh8894]

28. Oh please!

A two hour train ride in Europe - you can be in 5 different countries. Two hours on a train from Atlanta in any direction,won't even get you out of the state!Check AMTRAK.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

31. The vast majority of Americans live in cities or well-populated suburbs.

There's simply no excuse that in my community, Greater Phoenix, there is no public transportation in bar districts (though a light rail is under construction) and people wait 2 hours for a cab. That's practically inviting people to drive under the influence and you can lecture and wag your finger all you want, that's the truth. Making it a personal moral issue enables the government to not do anything to actually make the community safer, while raking in revenue from DUI stings.

[Luminous Animal]

50. So you drive two hours to have a drink?

The point is not how big or small Europe is. The point is that public transportation, no matter the distance, takes one from one necessary here to one necessary there.

[izquierdista]

49. Check your map again

And this time don't leave out Russia and the rest of Eastern Europe.

[Swede]

82. Europe is the sixth largest continent,roughly 4 million square miles.

It covers an area a little bit bigger than the United States (including Alaska and Hawaii).

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. Better He Costs Himself His Life Before He Costs Someone Else Theirs.

It's not alcoholism that's his problem. It's a complete lack of responsibility and caring about the dangers of driving drunk, while also suffering from the ignorant mentality of "I'm not gonna get pulled over if I do it this time. I can get away with it".

Sad story. Hopefully this time after a couple of more years he'll finally grow up, learn his lesson, and never do it again.

[cobalt1999]

21. I agree, if he can't stop with the DUIs, eventually he will kill/maim someone.

After all those chances, he's got one more. Hopefully he'll either make the most of it, or not take someone out while squandering it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

23. There will always be drinkers, and alcoholics among us.

What is needed is adequate public transportation and policies that focus on harm reduction. When I visit my sis in San Francisco, we can go to dinner and split a bottle of wine without worrying about being arrested for DUI or the horror of causing an accident. Why? Because we can grab a cab, bus, or tram to get home.

Where I live (Phoenix), public transportation is practically non-existent and you can wait up to 2 hours for a taxi in the Scottsdale bar district after closing time. But every bar has ample parking! Needless to say, thousands of people are arrested for DUI. Many cops freely admit it's a cash cow for the cities, counties, and state. So long as that's the case, there will never be a real effort to stop drunk driving. Making it a personal moral issue enables the government to give you just enough rope to hang yourself.

My suggestion if you live in a car-dependent community: Drink at home. It's MUCH cheaper.

[aspergris]

56. that is a total load of crap

Drunk driving is MUCH less accepted and much less COMMON (and the stats prove it) largely because of MADD, and their resulting influence on legislature and law enforcement.

And that has made a huge difference. There are literally THOUSANDS of people alive now who would be dead, because of these changes.

It's not about "cash cow". It's about saving lives.

I don't care HOW much frigging transportation you have where you live. Choose a designated driver. Sleep in your car, walk home, or drink at home. All those choices are yours. Drive drunk- that's a choice you have NO right to make. And it is 100% the fault of the driver. Nobody else.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

59. Yeah right. The thing is, I dated a cop on the DUI task force a few years ago.

He gave me the lowdown. He freely admitted that he and his fellow officers had quotas, and that the whole point was to generate revenue for the department. He told me that insurance companies contribute toward those holiday DUI patrols, because they rake in the bucks by charging higher premiums to people with DUIs.

As for the "huge difference" in traffic fatalities, why is it that the front page story in the AZ Republic today was how fatalities have gone UP, as a percentage of overall accidents? Valley traffic deaths soar in 8-year period

Obviously, most of these deaths are probably NOT the result of drunk drivers, but rather the result of a poorly executed transportation matrix. Trust me, driving in Phoenix is a perilous crapshoot. But that hasn't stopped the government from focusing a big chunk of resources on waiting outside of bars, hoping to catch someone who had 3 beers at 2am, regardless of the fact that most fatalities occur during morning and evening rush hour.

[aspergris]

68. you can cherry pick LOCAL statistics. I can talk actual national stats, which is what we are talkin

I am saying nationwide, literally tens of thousands of people are alive today who would not be alive given MADD etc.

And the stats NATIONWIDE have gone way down.

Here's the broadbased #'s.

Since 1980 (the year Mothers Against Drunk Driving was founded), alcohol-related traffic fatalities have decreased by about 44 percent, from over 30,000 to under 17,000 and MADD has helped save over 300,000 lives.
http://www.madd.org/Drunk-Driving/Drunk-Driving/Statistics/AllStats.aspx
30,000 to 17,000

THAT is a signficant change. Iow, that's 13,000 less per year.

That's real.

The point is this. It's YOUR choice to drive drunk or not. It's not the frigging transportation system (or lack thereof), or anybody else's/

I don't give fuck-all about a short term trend in AZ. We're not talking about one valley in AZ. Heck, I could cherry pick and find a location in the US where cancer deaths have doubled in an 8 year period. Does that mean there's a national trend.

The facts are facts.

after MADD and cops and prosecutors literally practically cut DUI fatalities IN HALF, yes there has been some migration around that number.

But the facts are facts. 12,000 people a year. Alive who would be dead.

We won't even get into injury stats. Unless you want to :)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

70. The woman who founded MADD left the organization

She was frustrated because they got taken over by a bunch of prohibitionist nutjobs.

[aspergris]

71. so what?

Again, this is relevant how?

I'm not saying everybody in MADD is reasonable.

There's nutjobs in MADD. There's also nutjobs in tons of other organizations that have done immense good. Does that mean their work in general isn't valuable? YOu can find extremists in any organization.

Again, I;m talking stats.

I agree there ARE some prohibitionists in MADD. So what?

Last I checked, no state had passed prohibtion laws (rolls eyes).

What they HAVE done is made DUI enforcement MUCH stricter, and cops and prosecutors now have MUCH better training than they did in the past.

And DUI deaths have gone way down. I support aggressive DUI enforcement. I do not support every nutjob in MADD any more than I support every nutjob in the NRA.

Again, not relevant to the issue. Which is that the WORK they have done is overwhelmingly positive.

Think about it. 12,000 people a year are alive now that would be dead.

Need I say that's twice the # of people that we have lost in IRAQ? Per YEAR!

Alive... that would be dead.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

78. 12000? I thought it was 17000.

That's the figure usually touted. Y'all should get it straight. Whatever the number is, it includes drunk drivers themselves. They are "victims" when it comes to inflating the numbers to get public support for draconian DUI laws. The rest of the time they portrayed as evil monsters on a par with child molesters. (Yes, crazy MADD members have used that comparison) The end result is that the public thinks that the 12000 (or 17000) are innocent non-drinking victims. When it comes to calculating the percentage of drunk drivers that caused the fatalities, there's a reversal. The NHTSA must inflate those numbers so they can persuade the public that drunk drivers are this huge menace and are everywhere. So they use highly dubious methodology and projections to acheive that. A drunk pedestrian struck by a sober driver is counted as a drunk driving death because one of them consumed alcohol. Same thing with drunk passengers. Or sometimes they don't even know if anyone was drinking in the crash but they use models that assume someone was drinking was because of the time of day or the demographics of the people involved.

Of course I don't think people should drive while intoxicated but DUI enforcement has gone too far. It's become a witch hunt against anyone who drinks. Unconstitutional road blocks. Unconstitutional drinking age - really, what is it to you if an 18 year old as a beer and doesn't drive? Yet young adults are routinely arrested for "underage" possession of alcohol. And even if they never so much as got in a car they get their license suspended. How is that fair? You know who's behind that? MADD. If you go to MADD's site you see they devote a lot of space to the dangers of "underage" drinking. Nothing to do with driving, which is odd considering the organization is supposed to be focused on keeping drunk people from driving. But here they reveal themselves to be mostly concerned with keeping a group of people from drinking. Of course the drinking age is highly popular with the overprotective mommies and daddies and revenue seeking government agencies.

Honestly dude, I get that you're a cop and clearly you're one of the more rah rah ones. Great. Would that you'd extend that spirit to female victims of male violence. (Yes, I remember you whining yesterday how an OP wasn't paying enough attention to the male victims)

[aspergris]

81. I'm not rah rah

I just support civil rights. Not crimes.

Wanna drink? more power to you. Do drugs? I'm against the drug war.

Drive drunk?

Nope.

Like I said, I readily concede there are prohibitionists in MADD. There are anti-alcohol people. So what?

Madd has done more to save lives than almost ANY citizen org. I can think of. Name one that has done more good than MADD.

Do I support the 21 drinking age? No.

I think it should be 18.

18 should be the age for drinking, gun possession, and voting imo.

However, I don't make the laws.

Drunk drivers ARE a huge menace. But FAR less so than they were.

I need two hands to count the # of my friends that have been either killed or seriously maimed by drunk drivers.

I don't know anybody , as a counterexample, who has been hurt or maimed by somebody with a CCW with their gun.

Like I said, I agree that MADD, like ANY advocacy group has members and extremists that go WAY overboard.

Drunk drivers make a choice. And they should pay the consequences.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

85. If you can count the number of friends killed or maimed by drunk drivers on both hands.

You either hang out with some very unlucky people, or some of them were the drunk drivers themselves. Really, there's no need to exaggerate.

I have a friend whose fiance died because he fell asleep behind the wheel. I await the day that tired driving is treated with the same gravity as drunk driving is. Because it should be. A few years ago a woman fell asleep and drove her minivan into a lake, killing all 5 of her children. She was the only one who survived. Is she rotting in jail, like she would be had she drunk 2 glasses of wine and had a BAC over .08? Nope. "Poor thing she was so tired" was the response.

I really don't get why you are harping on guns right now. I support gun rights, including CCW.

[aspergris]

87. I;m not exaggerating

I have two friends who are cops who have been killed by drunk drivers.

I used to be a triathlete. One training partner of mine in Santa Barbara was struck and killed by a drunk driver on HWY 101.

Another (Jaiom Berger) was killed by a drunk driver on Maui training for a tri (he ran the aluminum man series I competed in).

My friend in High school was killed by a drunk driver. Granted, she was driving a karmann ghia (aka deathtrap)

Several others I work with have been seriously hurt by drunk drivers.

The reason I have a disproportionate # of friends victimized by DUI's is that many of my friends are cops. People who work ON the roads 40-60 hrs per week at night, are in much greater danger from DUI's than most other people. That's because we are on the roads so much.

Street cops have way more danger from drunk drivers than the average citizen, because of the amount of time we are on the road, especially during the major death hours.

We are also frequently outside our cars at night, on roadways. For obvious reasons.

Iow, I'm not exaggerating.

I also have over a dozen friends who have been shot, and my best friend was shot and killed. So I realize I am a nonrepresentative sample. But I am not happy about these rolling deathtraps putting me and my partners in danger

[datasuspect]

101. money can buy better stats.

[demobabe]

91. In a rational world this is true

"The point is this. It's YOUR choice to drive drunk or not. It's not the frigging transportation system (or lack thereof), or anybody else's"

Well, yeah, to you and me that makes complete logical sense.

However, if you're an alcoholic (or an addict, or even a depression sufferer), logic isn't so clear cut anymore. People drink for reasons - often to self-medicate or escape whatever is going on in their life or brain or whatever. You don't make rational decisions when you're not emotionally stable to begin with.

How capable is a person of making logical decisions if they're dealing with psychological/emotional issues? They can't do it, and to expect them to function on a level of a completely sane person I think is a tragic mistake.

Getting arrested can be an affirmation of what the person already thinks of their self: "I'm a screwup. Of course this will happen because this is what is expected of me."

[aspergris]

92. the issue is free will, not so much rationality

"However, if you're an alcoholic (or an addict, or even a depression sufferer), logic isn't so clear cut anymore. People drink for reasons - often to self-medicate or escape whatever is going on in their life or brain or whatever. You don't make rational decisions when you're not emotionally stable to begin with.

How capable is a person of making logical decisions if they're dealing with psychological/emotional issues? They can't do it, and to expect them to function on a level of a completely sane person I think is a tragic mistake.

Getting arrested can be an affirmation of what the person already thinks of their self: "I'm a screwup. Of course this will happen because this is what is expected of me."

alcoholism, or being drunk (just because you are drunk, doesn't make you an alcoholic of course) does NOT excuse driving drunk. Sure, drunks sometimes make irrational decisions. So do sober people.. Both groups also sometimes beat their partners. Does being drunk or an alcoholic excuse that behavior? absolutely not. It likewise does not have any bearing on free will. Sure, I am well aware that alcohol decreases inhibitions, lowers judgment, etc. But people VOLUNTARILY intoxicate themselves and THEY are 100% responsible for their decisions.

Yes, I do expect them to be JUST as responsible for their decisions.

That includes if they rape somebody, assault somebody, drive drunk (which of course they can't do if they are sober. impairment is an element of the crime).

Sorry, alcoholism is a disease. It does NOT diminish one's responsibility under the law.

My state's penal code specifically does not allow one to use intoxication (as long as the person intoxicated themself) as an excuse. Period.

And that is how it should be.

Choices have consequences.

So, no. I don't EXPECT rationality. Heck, I know plenty of sober people who aren't rational.

But I expect that people take responsibility for their actions.

I 100% support the right of anybody to get as drunk as they want.

But not to assault, rape, or drunk drive

[demobabe]

114. Of course being an alcoholic doesn't excuse anything

Of course, if you commit a crime, or drive drunk, or whatever, you are legally responsible, sure. That doesn't change.

However, human nature is human nature. Britney Spears had complete free will, too - but it took her parents getting a court order declaring her unfit to get her off the streets and to get the help she needed. And THAT was near impossible. And you're saying ordinary people without Britney Spears' money and resources will somehow figure things out on their own?

All I am questioning is the effectiveness of our system.

If you throw a chronic drunk in jail, that experience isn't going to do anything aside take the person off the street temporarily. They WILL drive drunk again.

Our penal system is just that - Penal, and as Americans, we're hellbent on punishing, punishing, punishing... it's the Christian guilt way. It does just about NOTHING to REFORM and REHABILITATE the inmates' behaviors we wish to discourage.

Reinforcement is reinforcement, plain and simple.

If you want to encourage something, reinforce it. That includes negative reinforcement like jail.

Many people go back to jail over an over because it is a familiar thing, regardless if it's unpleasant.

You have to have experienced mental illness of some kind to understand, otherwise it won't make sense. If you're not functioning on all cylinders to begin with, then taking responsibility for your own actions isn't even an issue in your own mind because you're not dealing with your base needs/problems to begin with. It is not an excuse, and certainly does not excuse the behavior - I'm just saying you're dreaming if you believe someone with serious base emotional or imbalance issues can be expected to be responsible.

Maybe some will, but the vast majority will fail. That's just the way it is. It's like thinking a three-legged horse is going to win the Preakness - technically, it could be possible, but is unlikely.

There has to be a PLAN to help the person address the core problems so they can choose to make better decisions. Jail typically does not provide this.

[Leftist Agitator]

66. To be fair...

Sleeping in your car drunk is a DUI in most states.

Which is bullshit, but necessary bullshit. Otherwise the person who is so fucked up that they're passed out at the wheel could get off scot-free.

There should be a law that says that if you're sleeping in the back seat or passenger seat without the keys in the ignition, in a situation in which the car obviously hasn't been driven by a drunk driver, then it's acceptable.

Oh, and in a lot of communities, walking home is out of the question, not because of distance, but because of aggressive enforcement of public intoxication laws. Which again, is bullshit!

Fortunately for me, I live in a college town where public intoxication laws are impossible to enforce except in the most egregious cases of violation. That, and I do most of my drinking at home or at friends' houses because I tire very quickly of drunken idiots hitting on me in the bars.

[aspergris]

69. Most states? Not in my experience

It's not in my state. Have you researched "most states"? Or is that one of those made up statistics. I've been a cop in 3 states, and in NONE of them is sleeping in your car illegal.

There is a crime called Physical control. If you choose to sleep NOT in the driver's seat,and the key NOT in the ignition, you CANNOT be charged.

Again, do you have support for your "most states" claim?

And it's your responsibility to know the law inYOUR state and act accordingly.

"There should be a law that says that if you're sleeping in the back seat or passenger seat without the keys in the ignition, in a situation in which the car obviously hasn't been driven by a drunk driver, then it's acceptable."

I agree. And in my state, it is perfectly legal to do so.

"Oh, and in a lot of communities, walking home is out of the question, not because of distance, but because of aggressive enforcement of public intoxication laws. Which again, is bullshit!"

That's groovy. Then take a frigging taxi, or lobby your stats reps to CHANGE the law. I don't live in a state with a public intoxication law. I've lived in Hawaii - they don't have one there. I live in WA - they don't have one here. I've lived in Mass. They don't have one there.

[Generic Other]

126. Aspergris is giving us his professional expertise

I happen to agree with him about this issue. And glad you are on the force in my state! :-)

I think those posters like me who do not have alcohol problems (but deal with friends or relatives who do) are somewhat surprised at the severity of the laws these days. The sentence the OP's acquaintance faces shocks me because I thought DUI's were still treated somewhat leniently by the courts, that we had moved more toward treatment rather than long incarceration and punishment. I hope this is the case with first time offenders anyway. I just don't understand why anyone would risk that much prison time for a beer.

Like others on this thread, I am backing better public transportation, more treatment options, and ad campaigns to remind people of the serious consequences.

But bottom line: No one should drink and drive.

[datasuspect]

100. re: your advice

just a side note:

you said, "sleep in your car"

you are in constructive possession of the vehicle, they will assume you mean to drive it, you still get a DUI.

you said, "walk home"

in most places that aren't large, northern cities, they still take people in for public intoxication.

[SidDithers]

24. 4 DUIs by age 28?...

he needs to be off the roads permanently. And if it takes jail to do it, so be it.

Sid

[librechik]

26. he needs to get the hell out of california--and quit drinking.

not to wish him on other states, but cali is just unreasonable.

[SoCalDem]

27. We are all just hoping that he finally figures it out this time

and manages to stay relatively sane and lives to get out..

Prisons love to charge inmates with that 3rd offense in jail, and then never let them out :(

I am NOT excusing what he did.. just so sad to see someone with such promise, throw it all away..:(

[mrreowwr_kittty]

32. If he's going to drink he needs to live in a big city with transportation.

Don't even have a car. And I say that even if he remains sober. There's a strong chance he'll "fall off the wagon" again and if he's prone to driving when he does he should just get rid of the temptation.

[moondust]

29. Detox might work.

If HE is determined to stop drinking and WANTS professional help.

[SoCalDem]

30. He's got 3-6 years to plan his future

Maybe he'll get it right next time..We sure hope so..

[Ghost in the Machine]

35. Yeah, my kids just lost 2 more friends because of a drunk driving asshole...

That makes FOUR since Thanksgiving...

Rest in Peace, John Michael Daugherty, age 16 and

Racheal Elizabeth Slade, age 17 (and unborn child)


They should lock your son's friend up for life NOW, *before* he kills someone... he's an obvious dumbfuck who hasn't learned from his mistakes and doesn't *want* to change. I have no compassion for him, or anyone like him....

[Fly by night]

37. The most frightening words read at the beginning of every AA meeting:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."

Sounds very much like your young friend.

It also sounded very much like me once upon a time.

But I remembered AA's Third Tradition ("The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.") ... and I kept coming back.

After six relapses (but no DUIs, thank the Goddess), I finally got it. And kept it. Now it does not bother me in the least to be around alcohol and drinkers. Most times, I can say "There but for the grace of God go I". And if I'm ever offered a drink, I can say (without hesitation) "I've had enough."

Been sober now 14 years, 5 months and 29 days. (I play my length of sobriety as part of my Powerball number -- that way, I am a winner regardless of the tumble of the Ping-Pong balls.)

Hope your young friend can finally get honest with himself. Prison is not the best place for that to happen. But it can happen anywhere.

[dsotm-wywh]

38. Glad this guy is off the streets

I don't really feel sad for him, just happy that it's one less drunk driver I have to worry about killing my wife, kids, parents, siblings, neices, nephews, grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, you get the idea.

Serious, I go off about the war in Iraq and how F'ed up the Bush Administration is but really what hopes does America have when thousands of people are killed every year by drunk drivers? You know how much money drunk drivers add to health insurance costs? Billions of dollars. We're all paying more for drunk drivers. Besides all the people who pay with their relatives who are killed by these people.

Addiction is addiction but when you don't help yourself you hurt everyone and the best place for you is in prison.

[Leftist Agitator]

39. I'm sorry if this sounds callous, but your son's friend is just stupid and irresponsible.

Alcoholism had NOTHING to do with his repeated transgressions. How do I know?

I am an alcoholic. I drink anywhere between 6 and 20 drinks a day, every day, and on rare occasions, more. I have been doing this for ten years, sans two months in jail for an incident unrelated to drinking. In fact, I'm on Mojito number 5 as I type this. Oh, and in case you were wondering, I'm a 5'4" 130 pound female. Yeah. No shit.

When I was a teenager, I used to drink and drive EVERY SINGLE DAY. Thank God that I never killed or otherwise injured anybody, or got caught, for that matter. I cut that shit out when I realized how irresponsible and dangerous (and potentially deadly) my behavior was. I no longer drive at all, in fact. I know that if I have access to a vehicle while I'm drunk (which as I said, is a daily event) then I'll get some insanely stupid idea that involves me piloting a motorcoach in an inebriated state.

So I don't drive, anywhere, ever. I walk, I take the bus occasionally, and even more rarely I use the wonderful monorail that my quaint college town has on offer. I make these sacrifices because I am a responsible person. Obviously, your son's friend was not.

But if you think that an extended period of incarceration is going to be beneficial, then you are in for a rude awakening. I'd wager a month's rent that by the time he is released, he'll have a severe addiction to heroin or the like.

Again, how do I know? I've seen it happen. As much as I drink, I have friends and acquaintances who drink MUCH more than I do. And when deprived of alcohol (a la incarceration), and suffering through the throes of Delerium Tremens, a person will do almost anything to find relief from their suffering. And in prison, that means heroin.

You think that alcoholism is bad? Heroin addiction is MUCH worse. I have yet to see an alcoholic robbing people or committing other crimes to get money to purchase booze. There are various pharmocological and/or social reasons for this, but reasons aside, he is likely going to come out of prison MUCH worse off than he was when he went in, as the vast majority of inmates do.

Anyway, doom-n-gloom aside, I feel for this person, but please, PLEASE don't try to pin his bullshit on alcoholism, because that simply isn't the case. We alcoholics can be (and largely ARE) responsible, hard-working, successful people. Though we may drink alcohol in amounts that society deems excessive, we no more support endangering innocent lives than anyone else.

I hope that your son's friend can learn to quit doing egregiously stupid shit, but again, blame his actions on stupidity, not alcoholism.

[Fly by night]

42. Rationalize much, do we?

Been there, done that. Have the drawerful of white chips to prove it.

(See above.)

[Leftist Agitator]

46. Oh, I'm SO sorry that the idea that some of us can drink copiously and not fuck up offends you.

It must be a shame to have absolutely no self-control.

But see, the thing is, not all of us are such weak-willed ignorami who willingly sacrifice their notion of free-will (yes, I recognize the verbal irony) in favor of proclaiming themselves "powerless" over an inanimate substance. Some of us can rectify our "excessive" consumption of alcohol with the other requisite demands of day-to-day existence, and not ruin themselves in favor of being an idiot.

You and your twelve-step brethern disgust me, frankly. And your proselytizing and hijacking of the court system such that judges are free to sentence otherwise unproblematic people to your brainwashing really raise my hackles.

So, do tell... Why should I quit drinking at your behest? Should my accomplishments account for nothing? Currently, I have a 3.8-something GPA in pursuit of a graduate degree. But according to your ilk, I am "powerless over alcohol". I am not, I just prefer to imbibe alcohol copiously.

Let me guess... You're going to throw one of your bland platitudes at me. My money is on "stinking thinking".

Quit trying to convert those of us who are happy with our drunkenness to your abhorrently moralistic ways.

That's a nice way of saying "Fuck right off", in case all of that indoctrination has compromised your reason, which it obviously has.

P.S. Sobriety is not an inherently admirable thing. Just so you know.

[aspergris]

55. Totally

Drunkenness is a personal choice. There is no crime there.

I am against the drug war in general. And I think whatever you want to put in your body - as long as you are not neglecting your children - is YOUR business.

Period.

Alcoholism - or just plain choosing to get shitfaced drunk - is not an issue for law enforcement. It's between you and etoh, unless you want to seek help imo.

Freedom means the freedom to fuck up, too.

But not when it comes to drunk driving.

[Fly by night]

64. It's about attraction, not promotion. Some folks get it, others don't.

I should have remembered that before I responded to you. Sorry. I won't get into a pissing contest with you here for several reasons, including the fact that your distended bladder (and absense of restrain of pen and tongue) would put me (or you) to shame. That's not what this forum is for.

BTW, as a public health epidemiologist whose field of study for the past twenty years has been reducing the health effects of substance abuse, if you believe that drinking 5-20 drinks every day is doing you no harm, have a nice life. What's left of it.

BTW(2), I am no saint. I just have chosen safer ways (for myself and the ones around me) to alter my consciousness and to ease my physical aches and pains. (See saveberniesfarm.com). Once I quit drinking, I learned how to deal with the other things that once brought me pain.

There. I hope I've modelled restraint in this response. Once I stopped drinking, I found that I was much less prone to flashes of hostility and angry sarcasm directed at total strangers. But hey, for some people, being angry (and drinking excessively) is the only life they will ever know.

So, once again, have a nice life. What's left of it.

[Leftist Agitator]

67. Cannabis is all well and good.

Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic. The problem is that it is illegal to purchase, possess, or use.

Oh, I'm not so naive as to erroneously believe that there won't potentially be a price to pay for my drinking in terms of liver issues down the road. But I exercize daily, eat healthfully, etc.

And as Sir Winston Churchill once said, "I have taken far more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken from me."

P.S. I apologize for the acerbic tone of my previous response. You obviously aren't the high-and-mighty moralistic former drinker, as so many are, and that I hastily and incorrectly assumed that you would be.

:hi:

[Fly by night]

96. Thanks kindly. I'll PM you to continue our conversation.

[Leftist Agitator]

116. I turned PMs back on.

Feel free to message me whenever.

And again, my apologies for the poor attitude previously.

[Fly by night]

124. I PMed you yesterday morning. Hope to hear back from you whenever.

'Til then, take it easy.

[datasuspect]

103. there isn't anything inherently wrong with anger

it is a natural human emotion.

[Fly by night]

106. There's nothing inherently wrong with stupidity either.

These days, it seems to be a natural human condition.

[datasuspect]

107. everybody is smart in different ways though

[Fly by night]

125. Not hardly. See response #107 as an example.

[aspergris]

73. One has the absolute right

To get wasted as much and as often as one likes.

Freedom means the freedom to voluntarily intoxicate oneself (and Im against the drug war for the same reason).

I totally agree that - as long as you are not gettign behind the wheel- drunkenness is SOLELY your decision.

And of course many drunks do NOT drive. Heck, NEVER drive when drunk (or impaired.)

[NashVegas]

109. Skypuddle

I tried to PM you, but ...

I just wanted to say good luck, for when the time comes that you're ready to stop beating yourself up.

[Leftist Agitator]

115. I turned PMs back on.

Feel free. I want to hear what you have to say.

[NashVegas]

117. That Was

Pretty much it.

[Leftist Agitator]

120. Well then...

Thank you for your concern.

Need I the :sarcasm:?

[SoCalDem]

48. You'll get no argument from me.. He is stupid for continuing it

We thought that the last time he was locked up would DO it..

When he was 18 and locked up the first time he had a scholarship to UCI..This guy got an A+ in AP Calculus..

His self-destructive streak, combined with booze has pretty much ruined his life ...at least so far..

He was in a single-car accident, cause by him, and luckily was not that badly injured.. That should have been a wake up call too..

I am happy for you, that you figured it out and are doing well.. maybe our son's friend can manage to do the same someday ..

[dsc]

40. I hope he can find his way

I know but for the grace of God go I. But I do have to say he needs to never drive again or at least he should be sober for a really, really long time before he does. Prison can't be a picnic for a good looking blond young man so I just hope he survives.

[dysfunctional press]

44. 3-strike laws are INSANE. but that guy needs to get a nice bicycle.

nt

[Wizard777]

65. I agree. It's double jeopardy times three.

[aspergris]

72. It's not double jeapardy

Try some const. law training.

[Wizard777]

93. I disagree. Once you are tried for a crime. That crime can never be used against you again.

Three strikes laws do exactly that. They take three offenses that you have already been convicted of and use them to put you on trial again. The Constitution states. "nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb;" They put you on trial twice for the same offenses. The first time they try you for the crime. Then they try you again for the degree of the crimes you have already been tried for. Wasn't the felony issue addressed in the previous trials? Why yes it was. I'll bet it was even used to determine your sentence. They get to pick that particular part of the previous trial out and use it against you again. Nope! It's double jeopardy. Even if SCOTUS or some Constitutional scholars can't see that.

[Codeine]

102. It isn't double jeopardy

because the previous convictions have no impact on the guilt or innocence of the individual. They only come into play in the sentencing. You aren't "put on trial twice for the same offenses" at all, but your past behavior will be used as a measuring stick for your sentence.

[NuttyFluffers]

45. he needs to move to a place where he can get plastered and still get home.

the driving part is easier to fix than his alcoholism or getting arrested under 3-strikes and going away for life. he should move to NYC, SF, Japan, Europe, Toronto, etc. obviously staying where he is and trying to fight his alcoholism is but a losing battle. better to fight a battle he has a higher chance of winning, that of living car-free. it's critical at this point, he must move to a mass transit place saturated in taxis for the sake of his life and his future.

[lonestarnot]

47. If he can not overcome it, that would be my assessment too.

[Sanctified]

51. I don't know what to tell the guy, I am an alcoholic but when I used to drink I never drove drunk.

I know a lot of alcoholics who do not drink and drive so I don't think his problem can be blamed on drinking.

[aspergris]

54. I totally agree

Getting drunk of yer arse - imo, YOUR right and your decision and not an issue for law enforcement. I think ANYTHING you put in your body is your decision.

Driving drunk? sorry. That's a crime. That's a choice, and it should have consequences. First time- I'm cool with probation. After that, imo - mandatory jail.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

60. The biggest drinkers I know NEVER drive drunk.

They know better. DUI sweeps pick up mostly amateurs.

[ecstatic]

57. I know someone like him who continues to get away with it

Actually a couple people like that.... They have so much to lose, but alcoholism really is a disease that requires treatment... for life.

It sounds like your city is really strict about checking people for DUI.

[SoCalDem]

58. They do checkpoints all the time.. for DUI and seatbelts

we are a safe city:) or try to be..

The thing that blows my mind, is that with what he made, he did not NEED a car.. the place that hired him, specifially hires ex-cons to help them get back on their feet (non-violent ones)..he worked his way up from $10 an hour to a supervisory position at $32 an hour, and he did not call his boss to discuss the loss of a ride to work.. I KNOW they would have helped him, but he chose to buy a car he could never register because he had no license and probably could not have even gotten insurance for.. stupid stupid stupid.. and then to top it off , he thought he could still have a beer now and then :grr:

and those stupid choices could end up costing him his life..and every time he took a chance and drove, he could have hurt or killed someone else....

At his arraignment today, of course his mother was a no-show.. he had only my son and his other friend.. They paid the impound for the car, and had it towed to my son's house so he can try and sell it for him..

[mrreowwr_kittty]

61. Oh god for fuck's sake WHY did he insist on driving?

Must have been a macho thing. My recommendation I give to every drunk I know is: Get rid of your car if at all possible. Or have a job that allows you enough money to drink at home to your heart's content.

But oh no, these guys have to get social approval at the bar. Which means they drink like fish and insist on driving home. Damn. :banghead:

[aspergris]

75. most drunk drivers get away with it

The stats don't lie.

I've arrested several hundred fwiw, and I've testified as an expert witness on FST's.

The stats say the average "chronic " drunk driver does so between 7-80 times per YEAR.

Many get away with committing the crime MANY times before getting caught.

In the cases of arrestees, the VAST majority of same have done so many many many times w/o being caught.

I've had plenty of arrestees and interviewees admit that (off the record of course) :)

that's just reality.

[datasuspect]

104. alcoholism is not a disease.

it is a spiritual malady according to the big book.

bill w. never called alcoholism a disease.

[Zywiec]

76. Or he may end up doing life because he broke the law multiple times

and our families shouldn't have to worry daily about him drinking and driving again.

[MilesColtrane]

77. If three years in the joint didn't stop him before...

....four won't stop him from drinking and driving again.

It will, however, take him off the streets and give those who would have had to share the road with him a better chance at survival.

The sad thing to me: Cheney had three strikes and he rules the world now.

[klyon]

90. that is a very sad story... Addiction is impossible to explain

people don't act rationally under the influence

[upi402]

94. if he were a Bush... no problem n/t

[old mark]

95. Alcohol is involved with nearly 90% of all crimes

in the US. This guy is pretty typical, in that he tries to "stop drinking" on his own and can not. Also typical in that he is not rich.

I know of a local person with over 40 DUI convictions, a wealthy man who knew all the judges and lawyers. He always got off with minimum suspended sentences till he was driving with no license, very drunk and killed another person. He went to prison for that, and I believe the judge who let him slide so many times should have gone as well.

Best of luck to this guy - he needs to be in AA.


mark

[mnhtnbb]

97. This guy needs to get into AA the MINUTE he steps out of prison. He has an addiction--and he needs

treatment.

Hubby is a psychiatrist and he never takes an alcoholic into therapy unless they are also
doing AA.

Sad story. I hope your son's friend manages to get it right after he does his time.

[datasuspect]

108. they have aa in prison

[mnhtnbb]

110. Well he sure shouldn't quit AA when he gets out.

[piedmont]

113. What's the success rate of AA? Why don't they publish it? nt

[mnhtnbb]

121. Effectiveness of strategies for reducing recidivism of DUI/DWI offenders

http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/pa-files/PAS-99-023.html

Note that this summary of grants is dated 1999. My guess would be that the Bushies
may have pulled these studies, or reduced funding, or not done much to assess the effectiveness
of various interventions.

[Leftist Agitator]

122. Obviously "hubby" isn't a very good psychiatrist if he requires AA of his charges.

Cognitive behavioral therapy. Google it. Or try "rational recovery".

AA is no more than thinly-disguised religious indoctrination. Oh, and "hubby" would know that AA has a one year success rate of 5%, exactly the same as doing nothing at all.

[Fly by night]

127. Who are you to give advice on recovery to anyone? Give your AA hatred a rest, can't ya.

I am still waiting for a response from you on my PM, sent six days ago.

Even if it's just more of this -- it would be nice to hear from you.

[Joanne98]

98. It's ridiculous. Addiction is a disease. Why can't they treat it as such.

Thanks to the damn "christians" who insist on keeping us in the dark ages. It's a "moral failing", bullshit.

[SOS]

105. My friend Charles in New England

was a drinking buddy of mine in the 1980s.
I quit in 1992.
Charlie kept drinking, but we kept in touch.
Last summer he got loaded, ran out of beer, and decided to go get more. In his car.
Cops stopped him. Felony DWI, facing seven years in the State Pen.
The next day he shot himself. He was 54 years old.

Another good guy lost to alcoholism.

I wish they could send this fellow to Hazelden for 3 months.
I sincerely hope your friend's son can quit.
He'll be 31 when he gets out. There's still hope.

[mnhtnbb]

111. What a sad story, SOS. I'm sorry you lost your friend.

[Taverner]

112. As strange as this sounds, removing him from the environment might help

Say, if he took a job in Saudi Arabia or another country that bans alcohol.

Just a thought - they're all hiring.