Marijuana Decrim Bill is a total waste of time.

[jbane]

Anybody that votes for that is just handing their opponent in the next election something to
beat them over the head with in a 30 second ad.
Political suicide in most parts of this country is voting for anything that sounds like you support drugs, athiests and gun control.

[ixion]

1. yeah, so let's just keep destroying our society throwing non-violent pot smoker's in jail

that'll make it all better. :eyes:

[aspergris]

2. i totally support mj decrim

but let's ease back on the NORML rhetoric that we routinely throw non-violent pot smokers in jail.

in my MANY years of law enforcement, I have NEVER seen a first time offender with personal possession mj get more than 2-3 days jail time, and most got none.

the drug war is a bitter travesty. but if you smoke (note: smoke. not deal or grow) mj, and only possess misdemeanor weight, your chances of going to jail are very small.

heck, your chances of the cop disposing of your joint in front of you and issuing you a warning are reasonably high. god knows i've seen it happen.

[EOTE]

4. What state do you live in?

Surely you could see that policy regarding incarcerating first time pot offenders would differ from state to state. As I recall, about 900,000 people are in jail in the U.S. right now just for simple MJ possession. That seems absolutely obscene to me.

[aspergris]

5. except as has been ENDLESSLY debunked

those #'s are extremely distorted.

it is simply NOT the case.

there are almost always numerous confounding factors like multiple priors, other attendant crimes, defendant ALREADY on probation for the same offense, etc.

I've been a cop in 3 states, and I know cops all over the country.

I am telling you it is a MYTH that people routinely get jail time for simple MJ possession. and NORML is just like ANY advocacy group. i support their cause, but they are relentless in this type of misleading propaganda.

feel free to speak to some actual defense attorneys who work drug cases. and ask them - first time offender, misdemeanor weight, what's the average sentence?

that's reality.

[EOTE]

23. Endlessly debunked?

Can you provide a link to that effect?

[dysfunctional press]

50. "simple mj posession" of what amounts of pot exactly...?

are you sure that none of them also don't have "with intent to deliver" tacked onto that possession part?

also- does that 900,000 number include anybody with any other non-drug-related charges?

i don't know/know of anybody who's been sent up solely for minor possession issues.

[EOTE]

52. I'm not sure about that.

But I'd imagine that it wouldn't be very difficult for cops to add "with intent to deliver" to anyone caught for simple possession. Here's a link that shows that as of late, around 700,000+ people are arrested for pot related charges every year and 90% of those are for simple possession. Makes it not terribly difficult for me to believe that there are nearly a million in jail right now for the crime. Regardless, it's completely insane that people are being thrown in jail for possession of a plant. Just fucking crazy.

http://www.umsl.edu/~keelr/180/2003_pot_arrests.htm
Edited to add link.

[dysfunctional press]

53. it's difficult for me to believe that many people are in jail/prison solely for "simple possession".

i would imagine that in the majority of cases, there are extenuating circumstances- perhaps things like previous convictions for other offenses in a "3-strikes" state.

if there are less than 700,000 people arrested for simple possession per year- with many/most of those likely facing little or no jail time- then to have 900,000 currently incarcerated would meant that many people got sentences of many years for "simple possession"...and that just doesn't add up. imho.

btw- what would you, and the source you us define as "simple possession"?

[EOTE]

55. I'm not responsible for creating those definitions.

I'd imagine that the threshold for simple possession varies from state to state, but I'm imagining it's just that. Simple possession. You were caught in possession with a certain amount of marijuana.

[dysfunctional press]

56. i can't imagine/believe 900,000 are currently locked up for simple possession.

not without some actual facts about the circumstances of the detainees.
you do realize that your own numbers don't add up, right? with less than 700,000 arrested per year, and most getting little or no time, to have 900,000 currently imprisoned would mean lots of people with multi-year sentences. just for "simple possession". think about it- it just doesn't add up, does it?

how many people do you know/know of who have received jail time for pot? how many have been hassled/arrested for it by a cop?
i know plenty of people(myself included) who have been hassled or arrested. i don't know ANY who ever received ANY jail time.

[EOTE]

57. Why doesn't it add up?

You're assuming that people don't get multi-year sentence for simple possession. I don't believe that's the case at all. I personally know of 3 people who have served time for pot. My uncle did 6 months for possession in the 70s.

[dysfunctional press]

58. (pssst...6 months doesn't qualify as "multi-year")

ask any law enforcement person- MOST people arrested for "simple possession" get little or no jail time...if there are less than 700,000(90% of 700,000+ is generally less than 700,000) people arrested every year, and most of those get little or no jail time(ask a cop), to have over 900,000 incarcerated at any one time would require most of them to have multi-year sentences. it doesn't happen that way.

you're the one that threw out the 900,000 number- backit up with some facts(700,000 arrested/yr. has no bearing- unless you can provide stats about convictions and lengths of sentences).

btw- how much was your uncle arrested & convicted for possessing?

[EOTE]

60. I never said it did.

And it wouldn't require most of them to have multi-year sentences, only about a 3rd or so depending on the others. I don't know the total amount my uncle was convicted of possessing, but it was a large ziploc bag, so I'm guessing it probably had like a quarter pound or so. And keep in mind that incarcerations have been going nowhere but up since this time. I haven't been able to find the specific number for the amount of people currently in jail for simple possession, but hope to have it soon.

[ixion]

7. I'm glad to hear that, however, there is a flaw in your logic

"the drug war is a bitter travesty. but if you smoke (note: smoke. not deal or grow) mj, and only possess misdemeanor weight, your chances of going to jail are very small."

We agree that the so-called 'war' on drugs is a travesty. However, you're missing the point. If you smoke, you have to get the smoke from somewhere. That means you either buy it from someone or grow it yourself. There is no other alternative.

Once you bring money into the mix, if caught, you're charged with conspiracy to deliver. That's where most people get caught, and why the "NORML rhetoric" is not rhetoric at all, but fact. The facts are that the bogus 'war' has done nothing whatsoever to curb mj usage, but has, in fact, destroyed the lives of otherwise productive citizens.

This is a travesty, and it must end.

[aspergris]

8. false

"Once you bring money into the mix, if caught, you're charged with conspiracy to deliver. That's where most people get caught, and why the "NORML rhetoric" is not rhetoric at all, but fact. The facts are that the bogus 'war' has done nothing whatsoever to curb mj usage, but has, in fact, destroyed the lives of otherwise productive citizens. "

um,. no.

how many drug cases have you observed or testified in?

a END USER of misdemeanor mj gets charged with that, IF anything. Often, it's a deferred sentence. in many states, it's CIVIL not criminal (california) .

I am probably more strongly against the drug war than anybody here. seriously. but i am also against bogus statistics.

[sourmilk]

10. I have seen it a couple of times - and I live in Canada!!!

My nephew decided to roll a joint behind his work and got caught by the OPP. He was a first-offender, but because his work was right across the street from a local high school, he was charged, arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced to six months for TRAFFICKING, rather than simple possession.

Cops in Ontario are, by and large, MAJOR assholes.

[aspergris]

11. what kind of weight was he holding?

and how long did he actually serve?

notice i can't speak to canada, or specifically ontario's sentencing. just ours.

[sourmilk]

14. Served 12 weekends, as the time is weigted differently.

He was lucky he was employed, and that his employer went to bat for him.

He was holding 10 grams.

Our OPP and RCMP are literally nothing more than government-sanctioned THUGS. I've seen some pretty despicable behaviour from them in the past, but more people are starting to get more pissed off, and cops are starting to get SHOT.

[aspergris]

15. i know a bunch of RCMP

went to training with them. seemed pretty kewl.

10 grams would get you probation IF that where i live.

interesting to know that ontario is harsher than us on MJ

[sourmilk]

24. There is no such thing as a "kewl" cop.

I am a law-abiding citizen and I have never been arrested for anything. That being said, I have never met a cop I liked, and I am phrasing it INCREDIBLY KINDLY.

[aspergris]

25. i like myself

so that's one. and most of my coworkers . that's a lot more.

i will leave you with your prejudices.

[sourmilk]

33. I prefer the term "experienced."

You have a point, however. I must admit am much more apt to prejudge a cop than a civilian due to aforementioned "experience."

I'll work on it, K?

[aspergris]

36. no problem

when I was a young arrogant punk college kid i thought all cops were dumb jackbooted govt. thugs.

i evolved.

[sourmilk]

63. Interesting. I think I have discovered a parallel universe.

When I was a young, arrogant, punk college kid, I was ignorant and naive enough to believe that that cops were underpaid, unappreciated civil servants dedicated to the security and protection of society...

...but I suppose we all have to grow out of our illusions at some point in our lives.

Sometimes you get to see some seriously curious shit if you live long enough.

[Bandit]

17. What do you say about Tommy Chong spending 90 days for selling bongs

and other pipes. He didn't even have any pot yet went to jail anyway.

[DefenseLawyer]

18. Tommy Chong spent 9 months in federal prison

not that 90 days in jail wouldn't have been bad enough.

[aspergris]

19. as i said

you can bring up counterexamples against any general principle. tommy chong was pure and simple - a political message being sent.

was it ridiculous? yes

and note. chong was NOT charged with the crime i referenced - first time offender of misdemeanor weight.

note tommy was also charged FEDERALLY

generally speaking, people are not charged federally for misdemeanor possessory offenses (note tommy was charged for his enterprise).

again, my stats are correct. it's VERY rare for a first time offender with misdemeanor mj weight to serve any jail time (beyond a few days) if that.

that's simply the facts.

tommy chong was a federal case done for effect.

[DefenseLawyer]

20. Right, there is no cost or penalty involved in marijuana prohibition.

You can continue to carry water for the drug warriors, that's your prerogative; but your argument that marijuana prohibition is a good thing, with no social costs, because first time offenders don't get long prison sentences misses the mark. Most first time offenders are arrested and they do go to jail. Most are not sentenced to prison, but they do go to jail. Most first time offenders face a year or more of strict probation, with random drug testing and court ordered "rehab" which ends up costing the offender hundreds of dollars or in the case of the indigent, costing you and me hundreds of dollars. In many states a marijuana conviction of any kind results in an automatic driver's license suspension. A conviction also bars the offender from receiving any kind of federal financial aid for college. These costs are very real and that doesn't even take into account the cost for all the additional courtrooms jail space and the salaries for judges, court staff, prosecutors, public defenders, bailiffs law enforcement and probation officers. We have a truly massive infrastructure of cops, courts, probation services and rehab that costs billions of dollars, and for what? Because an adult chose to smoke a joint instead of drinking a beer. The drug war is a failure at every level.

[aspergris]

22. do you have a problem with reading comprehension

1) i am vehemently against mj prohibition
2) i think the drug war has immense costs

so stop preaching to the choir.

my statement was correct. NORML and others who promote the false propaganda that people get caught smoking joints and routinely get jail time are LYING

lying for a good cause is still lying.

I will ALWAYS debunk lies that i recognize. even if the lies are promoted by people I agree with.

this is the fact: misdemeanor possessory offenses involving mj first time offender rarely if ever get jail time.

a pretty fair portion never even get into the court system cause the cop disposes of it and gives them a warning.

that's all i'm sayin

[DefenseLawyer]

27. You do understand the difference between jail and prison, I assume.

The jail is where one is taken when they are arrested. If the person can afford it, he or she can generally post bond and be released from jail pending resolution of the case. If not, he or she will remain in jail. We arrest about 700,000 people a year for simple possession. Where do you think those people go when you arrest them, Disneyland? No, they go to jail. Maybe for a night, maybe for a week, maybe for 6 months or more if they can't post bond. It is true that we aren't sending most first offenders to prison. The drug warriors have always used this argument to placate all the boomers who may not be totally comfortable with the drug war. "Hey, don't worry, we don't me YOU. You won't go to prison, we are going after the BAD GUYS in the ghetto and such. We can go full speed ahead with the drug war and you can rest easy that you and or your kids aren't really going to be impacted." But they are impacted. We all are.

[aspergris]

28. yes

and that's why i specifically said 2-3 days at max.

most guys i know who are caught with bud, get either a warning, or a criminal CITATION

so they are never booked at jail anyway.

again, yuo keep bringing up all these strawmen about us being "impacted

great. not my point.

i have already said it 4 times.

deal with reality

the vast majority of first time misdemeanor weight MJ offenders get little to no jail time. many get deferred sentences. NORML's propaganda is false.

[DefenseLawyer]

29. I just looked at the NORML website

I can't find a single reference which even suggests, much less says, that most first time offenders go to prison. Not one. I think you may be the one that is "lying" about NORML. At the very least it would appear you don't know what you are talking about and are just bashing NORML; but of course in the guise of someone that "hates the drug war". Of course you do.

[aspergris]

30. i was referencing the 900k stat

that is endlessly brought up and NORML's endless propagandizing about how NONVIOLENT MARIJUANA SMOKERS are routinely thrown in jail and prison.

which is repeated here ad nauseum.

and again. i detest the drug war. i also detest propaganda from either side.

but you can't deal with facts, so now i'm a STEALTH DRUG WARRIOR who secretly supports the drug war.

you friggin black helicopter people are amazing.

look. there. it's the illuminati!

in yer cornflakes

[DefenseLawyer]

49. The 829,625 stat is true my friend.

The total number of marijuana related arrests in the United States in 2006. It isn't propaganda. It is fact. Those are DOJ's stats, not NORML's. And it doesn't have anything to do with prison sentences and doesn't imply that. It is the number of people arrested. Now again, in your world arrested people don't go to jail, but here in America they do. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.00. As far as NORML's "endless propaganda" about prison time for first time offenders, where is that exactly? Show me where NORML made that claim. They haven't. I'm not sure what to make of your "black helicopter" silliness. If you want to engage in a debate, then back up your bluster, don't resort to "you are crazy if you call me out". I am quite sure the Freemasons have nothing to do with your stilted position. However, your claim to "hate the drug war" followed by a false attack on NORML, I guess with the point being "the war on drugs is bad, but it's not THAT bad", just rings a bit hollow. You show me where NORML made the claim that all pot smokers go to prison and I will stand corrected. Otherwise your "point" is nonsense.

[High Plains]

37. It's not just jail time. A pot bust has collateral consequences.

You can lose your student loan. Until those damned reformers like NORML spent a few years agitating on the Hill, a pot bust at any time in your past cost you your access to financial aid for a specified period. Now, it's only if you get busted while attending school.

It also means (i'm pretty sure) a life-time ban on various federal benefits, like food stamps.

And problems with various professional licenses.

So, yeah, it's true the prisons aren't filled with pot possessors, but there are other negative consequences, too.

[aspergris]

47. and i don't disagree with that.

wasn't my point

[madokie]

3. exactly, its never better to continue on the wrong track no matter what

An attempt at righting a wrong is never a mistake. I'm about as law abiding citizen as we have except'n the weed.

[indepat]

6. The American society has been royally fucked over too long by Dem pols afraid

of shitting their pants if labeled weak on national defense or soft on crime, drugs, communism, terra et al thereby letting 'pukes set the national agenda and surely we all know where that has brought us as we speak. :P

[Lint Head]

9. It would have a better chance if Franks waited until after Obama was elected.

:dem:

[High Plains]

43. Nobody expects this to pass this year. But you have to start somewhere.

First federal decrim bill since the 1970s.

[B Calm]

12. I think the majority of Americans want it legalized!

[jbane]

13. I think the majority of Americans....

Don't give a damn one way or the other.

[aspergris]

16. we couldn't

even get an initiative passed in friggin NEVADA to legalize it!

[High Plains]

41. There is barely majority support for legalization on the West Coast.

It's at about 50%. And that's the most pot-friendly region.

The Nevada initiatives pulled over 40%, but not the 50.1% needed. Colorado is also very close. Hell, Denver voted to legalize it already. Alaska also came very close; maybe it was those darned provisions requiring reparations for pot law victims that killed that one.

But in California, there is already de facto personal legalization under the extremely loosely written medical marijuana law. And that's providing an idea of what legal, regulated marijuana distribution could look like. Hell, I am a certified California medical marijuana caregiver, even though I'm not even a resident. That means I can grow, buy, possess, and transport pot "for my patient." It's a fucking get out of jail free card.

[Ezlivin]

45. It didn't help that opponents got federal help

If the feds hadn't poured dollars and effort into the opposition Nevada would have legalized it.

It's not a fair fight....

[SteveM]

62. That's what happens when prohibition becomes nationalized...

You bring in the Feds to "overrule" and even usurp local authority as they please. This happened with alcohol prohibition (Amendment XVIII), and it is happening with drug prohibition (Harrison Act). Nationalized prohibition regarding firearms prohibition and control is now being successfully beat back.

[instantkarma]

35. I don't.

I want it decriminalized. Take it off the books.

[dysfunctional press]

59. not really. but if they knew the facts, they may want it decriminalized.

"most" people still consider it a dangerous drug.

[H2O Man]

21. Exactly.

"I hate drugs. They are bad for you. Marijuana has a terrible effect on the brain. It makes you forget everything you learned in school. When you smoke it's hard to work. I only used it to lure young virgins into bed. I'm very ashamed of this."
--Abbie Hoffman; Soon to be a Major Motion Picture"; page 299.

Abbie came to learn exactly why all of our nation's Founding Fathers, from Jesus to Washington, were so strongly opposed to "pot" (aka "Mary Jane"). Jesus preached to crowds of the immorality of getting stoned. Washington saw that this "harmless" weed led many of his friends to a lifetime of piano abuse. There are no recorded Washington songs played on piano.

We have to out-republican the republicans on this. The Rockefeller drug laws should be exposed as too wimpy. We must all share in the outrage when thinking of an adult, in the privacy of his/her own home, taking a hit off a "joint" late at night, especially if they are watching an R-rated movie. Our nation is at stake. The only proper intervention is a no-knock, kick the door in, warrentless search. Many a victim of pot has had their life saved by a long prison sentence and a criminal record. It's the least we can do, if we are to be a compassionate authoritarian country.

We need to out-do President Bush's crushing of the Constitution, or the republicans will destroy us at the voting booth. I say that the Bill of Rights does not apply to those suspected of smoking pot. Indefinite detention makes sense for suspected marijuana addicts.

Some moldy person said that "business is America's business." Or something like that. We need to make our neighbors' private business our business, to protect the sacred rights of the tobacco and alcohol industries.

In the photo below, Rockefeller reacts in a mature and dignified way to those who were disrespectful to him. They were advocating peace and non-violence. We can't have this in our society.

[Lyric]

26. Isn't it sad that some of our most personal freedoms and liberties

are contingent upon someone else's "electability"?

[krabigirl]

31. Whoever votes for it gets my vote :)

[lame54]

32. It's my favorite government time waster...

We need to keep "wasting time" on this issue

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. There won't be a vote on it

This is just something that Barney Frank will use to raise money from those who support this issue.

[TNOE]

46. Saw Barney Franks on Bill Maher

and he said the reason he was finally bringing this bill forward is that after 14 years - he feels his seat is safe and they won't be able to attack him on this. I agree with him. The majority of normal americans (not the Evangelicals) will see no problem with this. I believe he was going to call it the Keep the Real Criminals in Jail bill.

Somebody has got to do it.

[dysfunctional press]

54. four weeks from friday, bill returns for the election season run...

:woohoo:

keep your fridays clear.

[Greyhound]

38. I don't think so, every redneck I've ever known either smoked pot or

didn't care if others did.

BTW, I've lived in GA., AZ., and grew up in CO., so I know more than a few of them.

[High Plains]

39. What a gutless, craven position for the OP to take.

OP doesn't oppose decrim because it's wrong or bad, but because it could cost votes.

OP is also at least partially mistaken. In some districts, voting for decrim would not be popular, but in others in would. Do you think the congress critters representing places like, say, Seattle, Portland, Northern California, San Francisco, Denver, various college towns, etc. would take serious flack for voting for decrim? Hell, pot LEGALIZATION--not decrim--polls at about 50% in the West Coast states.

[RadiationTherapy]

40. Any press is good press.

There is no more defense for MJ crim anymore; at the most we are waiting for a tenacious generation to move into the minority of elected officials.

[Dora]

42. That's what you think. nt

[DS1]

44. 4 out of 5 pot smokers are okay with wasting time

So, might as well

[lonestarnot]

48. And the annual costs to hold these people in jail or prison? Yeah just like

ending the war in Iraq, a total waste of time. :eyes:

[underseasurveyor]

51. Although I disagree strongly with the premise

that the marijuana decrim bill is a total waste of time.. :smoke:

the timing of it is piss poor. waiting a couple more months would be better.
picking ones battles and the timing of those battles are key.

[SteveM]

61. Remember: The Patriot Acts ARE the War on Drugs, Inc.:

"The legislation signed today allows intelligence and law enforcement officials to continue sharing information and using the same tools against terrorists already employed against drug dealers and other criminals." -- G.W. Bush, signing ceremony, Patriot Act II

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060309-7.html

Everyone back-burnered the War on Drugs out of fear (justifiable) that the GOPers would bully an already-cowed Democratic Party. We have the result: prototype legislation for social control of a large "counter culture" now writ large for the entire nation.

[RedShoes]

64. so we should just conform to a repig menu o'fakefamilyvalues? that's bullshit

and anybody espousing such claptrap should know it.