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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 09:47 AM
Original message
Barack Obama Redefines the "Center" of our Nation's Defense Against Terror
Edited on Sat Jul-19-08 10:42 AM by bigtree

"Whenever there’s a big war coming on, you should rope off a big field. And on the big day, you should take all the kings and their cabinets and their generals, put ‘em in the center dressed in their underpants and let them fight it out with clubs. The best country wins." --Maxwell Anderson


With one sweeping declaration this past week, presidential hopeful Barack Obama brought truth and reality to the Iraq debate and stripped bare the blundering excuses and lies of the Bush administration and their lackey-in-waiting, John McCain, and left them to wallow in their own inanity and ignorance.

"As should have been apparent to President Bush and Senator McCain," Sen. Obama declared, "the central front in the war on terror is not Iraq, and it never was. That's why the second goal of my new strategy will be taking the fight to al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan." he said.

"This war distracts us from every threat that we face and so many opportunities we could seize. This war diminishes our security, our standing in the world, our military, our economy, and the resources that we need to confront the challenges of the 21st century. By any measure, our single-minded and open-ended focus on Iraq is not a sound strategy for keeping America safe."

As Sen. Obama has done, Democrats and others opposed to the Iraq occupation who continue to acknowledge Bush's 'terror war' should oblige him and aggressively tie it to the quagmire in Iraq and his wallowing failures elsewhere in the world. Bush 'cut-and-ran' from the hunt for bin-Laden in Afghanistan to invade and occupy Iraq. As critics have repeatedly pointed out, Bush has far more military and other resources in Iraq than he does in Afghanistan where al-Qaeda was based.

And, if Iraq has been the center of their 'terror war', than Bush and McCain should know that effort has been hopelessly bogged down in the bloody civil war that surrounds the troops hunkered down in the U.S. Green Zone. The administration has worked to conflate legitimate concerns about the occupation and the brutality and oppression surrounding our country's involvement there with al-Qaeda in an attempt to paint opposition to their bloody imperialism as akin to terrorism and terrorists.

Bush spent most of the last presidential and congressional election seasons flying around the country, with his cohort Dick close behind playing the War president to Cheney's messianic campaign of fear and smear. This election will be no different, except in the substitution of his own ambition to continue his bloody quagmire with the political zealotry of John McCain in his opportunistic bid to be the one to continue to commit our men and women in uniform to deadly sacrifices in Iraq.

The Bush regime, backed by all of his republicans, 'cut and ran' from Afghanistan and let bin-Laden and his accomplices get away. That's why our nation is still at risk; not from 'terrorists' in Iraq, but from an al-Qaeda organization and network which was emboldened by bin-Laden's escape, and is further encouraged to act against the US, our allies, and our interests by Bush's failure to catch them years after he promised to apprehend them, "dead or alive."

The Bush regime has told their embattled, unpopular Iraqi junta that they will accept "alternatives to democracy" in Iraq. That's a far stretch from the rhetoric that Bush used to get us into this occupation and will keep us there while he looks for some 'victory.' If our troops are now going to be fighting and dying to protect and defend anything less than democracy there, that's yet another definition of proper use of the defensive forces of our nation's military by this dissembling administration.

It was a huge admission that they were willing to compromise on the most basic of principles that our defensive forces operate under. It's one thing to muckrake with our military under the guise of a threat to our nation's security, but that excuse went out the window years ago. The most salient excuse Bush has used is the defense of Iraq's 'democracy'. Now, it seems, they have abandoned this last lie as Iraqis continue to throw off any product of Bush's imperialism he repeatedly claimed was in the Iraqi's interest.

By his own declaration, Bush has framed the continuing failure in Iraq as a referendum on his handling of issues of national security and foreign affairs. And, despite his devastating failures, he and McCain are still demanding more time to fit the square peg of terrorism into the circular hell-hole in Iraq. Nobody 'stays the course' in the face of failure as consistently as Bush does. But, John McCain is making a bid to better Bush on that score.

It should be clear to most everyone by now that Bush has absolutely no intention of doing anything the American people have demanded of him. After his veto of the Iraq withdrawal legislation earlier this year, Bush took pains to explain the reasons for his obstinacy which centered almost exclusively on Iraqi concerns instead of any American interest. Apparently, the political success of the regime installed and maintained behind the sacrifices of our soldiers is more important to Bush than anything the American people are telling him with their votes in November, and more important than their response to almost every poll they've answered insisting that he bring our troops home.

There are glaring, anti-democratic aspects of his escalation of the occupation of Baghdad - like the decision to construct a 'wall' isolating the Sunni community from whatever amenities and opportunities the residents there would expect to be entitled to avail themselves of from a "free and democratic" Iraq. The building of walls meshes perfectly with the apparent decision of the Bush regime to throw their support behind the Shiite-dominated Iraqi government and to cast all of the Sunnis as "enemies" akin to those in their community who took on the moniker of Bush's nemesis, al-Qaeda, in their resistance to the new regime.

All talk of reconciliation between the warring sects in Iraq has given way to a notion that some amount of legislative maneuvering by the Maliki regime and his fractured parliament will satisfy for the democracy which was promised Iraqis who were privileged to vote in the elections held under the increased U.S. military occupation of the sovereign nation. Talk of the Shiite majority reconciling with the Sunnis who were driven from power and opportunity by the U.S. invasion has been replaced with the generic goal of passing legislation reversing the de-Batthification of the military and the government which was zealously ordered after the initial invasion by Bush and Rumsfeld.

Still, Bush and McCain insist that their "top priority is to help the Iraqi leaders," who, they say, "were elected by nearly 12 million of their citizens -- secure their population." And that the "young democracy needed some time to make important political decisions to help reconcile the country."

It's a no-brainer for most Americans, steeped in the broad history and tradition of our own democracy, that one election held years ago under the supervision of the U.S. military -- which invaded and overthrew the existing regime -- is no substitute for the checks and balances an accountable government provides by enabling a continuing process where average citizens can actually participate and influence their rulers and their elevated edicts.

There is no democratic process of accountability of the new regime to the Iraqis they intend to govern. Indeed, there has been a sustained effort to intimidate and stifle the influence of those communities who have actively opposed the imposition of the Maliki authority and the new regime's support for the U.S. invaders. Along with their U.S. benefactors, the Maliki regime has directed their new army to assist the U.S. military in re-occupying these opposition communities to intimidate them from their active opposition of the new government's political initiatives and actions.

It's ludicrous -- for most Americans and most Iraqis -- that there's an expectation that the Iraqi regime would engineer some legislative machinations behind the intimidating influence of our occupying army and call it democracy. Yet, that's what Bush and the supporters of his bloody occupation are telling us they expect to achieve from this deadly escalation; a political victory in Iraq's compromised legislature.

It's no matter to Bush and his cabal that the Sadr coalition, who enabled the new regime to power with their support for the Maliki regime -- walked away from their positions within the new parliament to oppose the U.S. enabled regime; they'll just appoint more compliant ones. It's of no consequence to those who are zealously packing our soldiers into the middle of Iraq's civil war that there is no reliable effort from the new regime to bend to the will of the Iraqis they lord over in the majority's insistence that our forces leave their country.

In fact, the Bush administration's support for the continuation of the manufactured authority of the Maliki regime -- in the face of the continuing resistance and opposition to Bush's continued occupation -- is a direct reflection with the president's spurring of the will of the majority of Americans that he end the fiasco and exit.

The most pernicious ignorance of the will of those Bush seeks to dominate with his manufactured authority here at home and in Iraq has to be his continuing insistence that the 'Iraqi al-Qaeda' he's motivated with his diversion from the hunt for the original perpetrators in Afghanistan, threaten more than his pathetic attempts to consolidate power in Iraq. The notion that they'd 'follow us home' is nothing more than Bush's own paranoid fear of the backlash of his own indiscriminate aggression against innocent Iraqis.

Bush's 'Iraqi al-Qaeda' are becoming as important and elevated as the original 9-11 orchestrators have been as a result of his rhetoric raising the combatants to a level of importance reserved for nation-states which actually threaten our defenses with substantial armies and weaponry. While the original al-Qaeda continue to influence recruits and supporters by the mere fact of their Bush-enabled freedom from prosecution, Bush is satisfied to regard the 2% or so Iraqis our intelligence agencies identify as al-Qaeda sympathizers as the most important threat our country faces which deserves the bulk of our nation's defenses and the continuing and escalated sacrifice of our nation's defenders in Iraq.

It should be clear to most everyone by now that Bush has absolutely no intention of doing anything the American people have demanded of him -- and his would-be republican successor holds the same opportunistic reticence. After his veto of the last Iraq withdrawal legislation passed by Congress, Bush took pains to explain the reasons for his obstinacy which centered almost exclusively on Iraqi concerns instead of any overriding American interest. Apparently, the political success of the regime installed and maintained behind the sacrifices of our soldiers is more important to Bush and McCain than anything the American people are telling them with their votes last November, and more important than their response to almost every poll they've answered insisting that he bring our troops home.

While the real al-Qaeda 'threat' to America still looms somewhere in the mountains of Afghanistan - emboldened and empowered by their freedom from prosecution resulting from the attention Bush is giving to the Iraqi pretenders -- the president is satisfied with creating and posturing against even more "enemies," over there, in Iraq, that he says would threaten us here at home.

We're not far at all from having to address a world of 'al-Qaeda' wannabes assuming they'll be as successful in antagonizing America as the 9-11 specters Bush and his partners have so recklessly elevated. That's exactly what the American people and the legislators they elected to office have been warning against. Those are precisely the warnings that Bush and his republican cohort, John McCain are determined to ignore as they push our troops even further toward provoking Iraqis and others into even more attacks on our troops; on our allies,and our interests at home and abroad as he picks a fight against a world of 'enemies' who would resist these republican militarists swaggering advance and their bloody expansionism waged behind the sacrifices of our nation's defenders.


by, Ron Fullwood
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Barack-Obama-Redefines-the-by-Ron-Fullwood-080719-968.html
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brer cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent!
Bush and McCain, Bush and McCain...tie them together at every opportunity.

K&R
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. so what does this long arctical say that is new new's?
This has been known for years by anyone who has been paying attention . So now Obama is going to sail off and keep us safe with shifting the front of the war drum?

No one has ever been able to deal with Afghanistan , ever, so this is what Obama comes up with.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. If I had my way, these issues would be common knowledge
. . . and I'd never, ever, have to repeat myself again.

Obama didn't 'shift' the front. The pursuit of the original 9-11 terror suspects can never be waged from Iraq. We can argue about the means of pursuing them and the extent that our military is involved in that effort, but it's clear that Sen. Obama intends to redefine America's role in the NATO effort in Afghanistan by first reestablishing our role in the region, beginning with a withdrawal from Iraq and following through with a diplomatic effort to reestablish the enabling partnerships with those in the region which were aggravated and distorted by Bush's blatant military expansionism.

Sounds like you want to attribute the worst of the ambitions and efforts of the administration and their republican cohorts to any exercise of our military against al-Qaeda, but he's adopted and held a view of U.S. involvement in the region as a cooperative effort with our allies and interested parties, instead of the unilateral adventurism that has defined Bush's (and McCain's) foreign policy. That attitude should produce a shift in response and cooperation from those nations, like China and Russia (and Iran), which can play a decisive role in influencing actors and events which have stacked up in defense against the administrations swaggering militarism.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. No , I feel the entire war on terror
Edited on Sat Jul-19-08 01:49 PM by blues90
Is a term and effort all designed and made up by the Bush admin. It's a fight on a vast and un-defined term applied to describe anyone who may be a said terrorist .

The Dems have enabled this insanity to continue. What does war on terror really mean?

We never should have been in Afghanistan to begin with , no one has ever proven Bin Ladin had anything to do with 9/11 and we know he is or was part of this admins group .

All Afghanistan was was to secure a pipeline from the caspian sea.

What we should done is taken the worlds support after 9/11 and used it to find whom ever was involved in 9/11 instead we allowed to be sold on this insane idea of fighting a war on a term , not a country who we know attacked us.

Now for Obama to take this into his own ideals is just buying into the original terrorist creation theme.

after 7 plus years of this war on terror all we have managed is to create more terrorists and long lasting hate from the people in the ME.

Now we have allowed this to become un-fixable. The people in the ME are not now going to forget this.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. no one has ever proven Bin Ladin had anything to do with 9/11

time to restart the ignore list
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. where is the proof? start your damn ignore list breaking my heart
That really bothers me.
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Winston. Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
44. FBI doesn't link Osama to 911
When a spoke person from the FBI was asked why the 911 attack was not listed among Osama's suspected crimes the FBI simply said that there was no hard evidence pointing to him...
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. you have proof? mygod! show it
you think anyone here wants to believe something that thus convicts our own leaders of the worst political crime in western history? If Mr bin laden did it, why can't the busheviks explain how he escaped detection working with such a complex plot, at least? Maybe because it simply never mattered; what mattered was the fortifying of rightwing control of US gov, the ruining of the corporate mass media, demoralization of the centre/left, and vast riches for the thieves- all achieved along with passage of time, 8 long years, in which to muddy the waters and confuse the electorate (i got spam today that said '500 tons of Saddam's uranium secretly removed from Iraq)
bin laden and wmd's and the war on tots (terror) are all buncha lies meant to keep pigmedia busy until bush can flee the spotlight.....
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
49. Right: You really can't make war on a noun.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. re: the war on terror obama is wrong, too. just a different wrong.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I think the 'war' on terror is wrongheaded and counterproductive
Edited on Sat Jul-19-08 06:07 PM by bigtree
But, I don't think that every defense against terrorism is incorrect. I think we've become so disgusted with the cowboy tactics of this administration that we tend to lose sight of the fact that there are legitimate threats to the U.S. and our allies which will require a military response. I believe Obama's emphasis on diplomacy will create the balance needed to convince those elements who would violently resist U.S. expansion into their countries that we have no more purchase on their territory and are partners in legitimate defenses which ensure the territorial integrity of our regional allies in that effort.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. the biggest threat is the US military budget
few know that the US taxpayer spends money on their 'defense' equal to the rest of human race combined, 6.7 billion people, on theirs ie 140 countries! If Americans knew it, they might say, 'hey, wait a minute there fella, this aint right!'
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. a big part of that expense goes right into the defense industry coffers
. . . for big ticket weapon systems which usually get canned before they even produce what's promised.

I think if we change the priorities for our military back to defense, from the military imperialism of the Bush administration, we can cut into that number. Rght now, we're juggling priorities like missile defense, Predator drones, and other patronage projects behind the whatever the administration and the military have classified a 'national security'. A shift in priorities and mission that Sen. Obama has advocated is an important step in plugging the Pentagon money pit.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
37. nevermind the MIC directly, lookit the war on drugs!
the war on drugs is a massive subsidy of a certain demographic (police, jail guards, lawyers etc)..back in the early 80's, it was estimated at $180 billion/year ...iow the taxpayer would save $180 billion a year just by decriminalising pot- something no public figure would dare say. If anyone thinks this could be done w/out gunmen killing alot of people, then....??...and the MIC is even worse. It's so deeply woven into the fabric that neutering it, or fixing it via financial route would destroy the entire thing. And that was planned. That's why the Youngster Bush is maybe the greatest US president ever. He has exposed the cost of multi generational basing of public policy on fictions, such as 'anyone can be prezdent, hard work is always rewarded, drugs are bad, looking out for number one, columbus discovered amerka, big bizness is thinking big, might equals right, offense is good defense, the markets are king...' you could list the talking points of the 'american way' forever, but the basic idea, that the US was blessed by god, who by default damned everyone else! That is wrong and should never have been allowed! Especially by a god fearing country ;) The contrived worldview the rightwing forced upon the developing democracy called USA was dishonest, and the dishonesty bred more dishonesty, until to be elected, a politician had to playact the 'new honest outsider' while instinctively supporting the basic insider dishonesty. We're literally tied up in knots the rightwing has been trying since Aaron Burr or Thomas Jefferson's day...now president bush has given us a sharp knife!
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. What did the Afghanis ever do to us?
Why take the fighting to Afghanistan? Nary a one of the alleged hijackers were from Afghanistan.

So why do "we" want to murder their citizens?
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Absolutely nothing, which is why we are not going to abandon them to petty criminals and thugs.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. It is not up to "us" to to get involved
in a sovereign land's problems, ESPECIALLY when they have not asked us to bomb the fucking shit out of their populace.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. Sure it is. We had international backing to replace the government of a failed state.
The current government and populace are entirely in favor of us continuing operations in Afghanistan. The Afghan people want us there.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. You have proof of who attacked us?
Please, please provide a link for that valuable information, NOW! :eyes:
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. The Taliban were bad, stupid people.
It is therefore OK to bomb the shit out of Afghanistan and kill lots of people there and impose a stooge government. See the "logic"?
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Nope
Maybe that's because I am not a patriotic merikan?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Well, you clearly don't know how to think like a patriotic American.
Good for you.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Thank you!
That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a very long time.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Why is that nice? Inquiring minds... nt
Edited on Sun Jul-20-08 12:38 AM by babylonsister
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Huh?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Sorry. I keep thinking bin Laden is/could/ might be in Afghanistan.
I think that could/should be the place to go.
I also understand he's from SA.

What a tangled web.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. What does it matter
where OBL is? There is no, none, nada, zilch evidence that he was behind the 9/11 attacks. Hell, he's not even on the FBI's most wanted list.

Besides, he's been dead for over six years.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Here's the deal. There was a video where he claimed he was
behind 9/11. He has not been determined to be dead. His death will kill the bloodlust for Americans, but this bogus Iraqi stuff is finally not viable.

You don't know he's dead, no one does. If I'm wrong about him claiming he was behind 9/11, let me know. Doesn't mean he was, but I do think he claimed his involvement. That might have been convenience for him...
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Do you speak Arabic?
If not, others do and determined that video was bs. And every video after that was bogus.

He died in December 2001. Do you actually believe that a man w/such a huge ego would remain quiet? Our own government knew in July 2001 that he was very ill.

I am amazed that you, of all people, believe our government's propaganda wrt 9/11.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. "He died in December 2001" And you know that how? nt
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I know how to google
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Bully for you; so you and google think he's dead, everyone else,
maybe yes, maybe no. Enjoy your fantasy, but if you come up with solid proof, let me know.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. And why don't you let me know
when there's solid proof that OBL had anythuing to do w/the 9/11 attacks.
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dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Where's the real deal?
I believe the videotape with Osama supposedly confessing to 9/11 was a fake. This is an important point to resolve, hopefully someone here can help, as I know there are people on this board that have looked into this issue. The one article I have bookmarked on it is on the whatreallyhappened site, not sure how credible that is, so maybe others can join in with links to actual analysis of it.

Honestly, I believe our own gov and its shadow elements were behind 9/11, and even if Osama was involved, that he was acting on behalf of our guys. Hopefully someday we'll get to the bottom of this, as the veracity of it drastically effects decisions on how to deal with the Afghani/Pakistani areas.

If 9/11 really was engineered or even allowed to happen by our people, we have no business fighting in Afghanistan. Indeed, the terrorists we would need to bring to justice would be right under our noses in our own country.

I'm worried when I hear Obama talking up the Afghan war, and the War on Terrorism. It's bogus, invented by those whose agendas it served. Also it's a self-fulfilling vision. We see evil-doers in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and we go out and kill a bunch of them, and guess what? Now there really are a lot of people in those areas that wish us harm.

If I'm wrong about this, I'd like to see some credible evidence, such as an independent scientific analysis of a Bin Laden confession.

There were far too many suspicious links between our guys and the supposed terrorists to swallow the official story.

Without the official story of 9/11, we're left with 2 wars we have no business waging, a bunch of new enemies we didn't have to make, a huge war deficit, a failing economy, civil liberties destroyed, just a wrong wrong path we went down because our leadership is evil.

I hope Obama doesn't take the official story at face value, he needs to step back and find out who the bad guys really are, then he can take the right actions to address the problem.

By the way, how's that anthrax investigation going?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
22. bigtee, I love you. You are so smart, and I am glad to see you!
I mean that very sincerely. :loveya: And I'm glad you are contributing.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. what a wonderful welcome
I'm happy as I can be to be able to contribute to the debate again and advocate for our next president with the good folks here. You're the best, babylonsister. Thanks for making me feel so welcome. :hi: :hug:
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. No, I'm happy you're back, my friend.
I really did miss you, despite all of our disagreements, and not just during the primaries. You have a tendency to expand my brain, and that's a good thing. :hug:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
34. A prime reason
why he was last on my list of potential nominees, and why I am appalled at his nomination.

I don't want to end Iraq so that we can wage war in afghanistan and pakistan. I don't want any more of the bogus "war on terror."

I don't want a president who will continue to spend our resources on war abroad.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. I believe that his targeted priorities for our troops there will help redefine their mission
Edited on Sun Jul-20-08 09:56 AM by bigtree
. . . from a mere defense of Karsai and Kabul -- to a focus on disrupting the resurgent elements of al-Qaeda near the Pakistan border, linked directly to elements which are alleged to have been involved in the 9-11 attacks, which have been enjoying 'safe haven' as a result of our military forces' diversion to Iraq.

Sen. Obama has expressed concern about the civilian killings by the Western forces (more civilian killings at the hands of those troops reported than by any insurgent force, including the Taliban). He has also outlined a series of diplomatic and other incentive actions, like humanitarian aid and reconstruction funding, which he has put in front of his plan to commit more troops to the NATO effort there.

"We've got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there," Obama rightly said in 2007.


From the AP yesterday: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i93McMPYxNe5I5luHeUstklGV2RgD92127DO0

"Obama advocates ending the U.S. combat role in Iraq by withdrawing troops at the rate of one to two combat brigades a month. But he supports increasing the military commitment to Afghanistan, where the Taliban has been resurgent and Osama bin laden is believed to be hiding.

Obama recently chided Karzai and his government, saying it had "not gotten out of the bunker" and helped to organize the country or its political and security institutions."


and this: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hzB41Hrc_Yn1g37VQMA2klYDKAQw

"We need more troops, more helicopters, better intelligence-gathering and more non-military assistance to accomplish the mission there," Obama said in The New York Times on Monday.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. All of that probably sounds great to people who thought we ought to be at war to begin with.
I don't. I never did.

I never supported the war on terror. I don't now. I don't want more troops anywhere. I want our troops out. Period.

I don't think we have any "job" to get done; not one that I approve of, anyway.

I have no military commitment to Afghanistan, I don't give a fuck about Bin Laden and never did, and I believe that our "war on terror" has empowered the taliban, empowered al quaida, and will continue to do so.

I don't want to spend a single penny beyond what it takes to shut things down and bring our people home.

If we have anything to spend at all, I want it spent at home.

I give a fuck about the economy, the national debt, health care, education, transportation, housing, energy, the environment, social and economic justice within our own borders.

If we can't do a good job with those things at home first, we sure as hell have no business playing "daddy" anywhere else.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I'd welcome those non-defense initiatives as the ultimate priorities for our government
I'd welcome those non-defense initiatives as the ultimate priorities for our government

But, I don't think we can just turn our back on the task of apprehending or containing those we've determined directly responsible or complicit in the attacks on our nation in 2001. And, it's not going to be a realistic option to leave Afghanistan vulnerable to combatants who would use the region as a staging area for more attacks on the U.S. or our allies.

It won't happen that a U.S. president is going to just walk away from the 'job' of containing or eliminating those threatening elements in Afghanistan/Pakistan. Right now in Afghanistan, even under the imperialist ambition of Bush, the military mission is a cooperative effort under NATO in which Obama intends to attract more regional support and assistance to allow those whose lives are directly affected by the combatants to assume more of the security role to eventually lessen our own country's sacrifices of life, limb, and resources. I just don't expect any president to just abandon those military obligations - no matter where or how they originated.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I don't see continuing war as an obligation.
I don't see stepping in to patronize other nations as an obligation, either.

Finally, I don't know that we've accurately determined the source/s of the attacks, although I believe one of the triggers is our own march to empire. I'd rather focus on changing the triggers, myself.

It may not happen that a U.S. president would walk away from war as an instrument of international policy, but it certainly should. I will continue to hold the U.S., and its presidents, accountable for what SHOULD be happening for the rest of my life, likely or not.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. We haven't determined the source(s) of the attacks
We were never presented w/the White Paper promised to us by Colin Powell shortly after the attacks. Nor have there been any trials.

The 9/11 "investigation" was a sham and anyone w/two brain cells to rub together knows that. Our government has done a great disservice to the families of those murdered during the attacks by not answering their mountain of questions.

I believe it is those that believe the propaganda our government has spewed that have helped put us in the mess we find ourselves today.

The bush cabal not only had plans to bomb Iraq before they entered our WH, there were plans on *'s desk to bomb Afghanistan months before September 11, 2001.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. All excellent reasons
not to push forward in Afghanistan or anywhere else under the pretense of 9/11.

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dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. I don't trust anything our gov has been telling us
about the war on terror.

I'm sure we're a fairly small minority, but those of us who remain skeptical need to keep making this point.

There are now definitely a large number of people who wish us harm. It's called karma, and that's what we need to do, is repair our karma, not continue down this militaristic path.

I actually think Barack can do a lot to repair our karma, and hope he will. Unfortunately, he doesn't exist in a vacuum, and the powers that be are putting tremendous pressure on him to not be a dove. You can see him respond to it and position himself in more hawkish positions to avoid being marginalized like Kucinich is.

We need to do everything we can to put out a peaceful path as one that is demanded by a sizable portion of the electorate. If we can't or won't do that, we get what we deserve, which is war and a resultant anti-American backlash that will bring the war home in some really bad ways.

9/11 was nothing. If terrorists really decide to go after the U.S., they'll be impossible to stop, and the damage they can inflict is beyond imagination.

Good international will is the way to national security, and it'll free up resources we need to spend on social services and infrastructure in our own country.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
45. Good to see you back and posting again, Bigtree.
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SwiperFox Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 05:24 AM
Response to Original message
47. JUST SAY NO!
I hope he informed the troops on their next deployment to protect the poppy fields-er-america from the "terrists".

WAKE UP, PEOPLE!

Obama and McCain are conscious pawns for an evil agenda. Dont idolize and fall into partisan games! Question and draw your own logical conclusions. We are being toyed with. There are no two parties and all politicians are working hand in hand in all these crimes. Please, friends, realize this.


Obama uses crucial foreign tour to promise more troops for Afghanistan:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3403071
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
48. There can only be TERROR
if there is FEAR.

"The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself"
- Crippled guy with big cigar.

"FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, ..."
- Bush

Your choice.
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