Gun control is elitist

[bluestateguy]

Crime in cities is always higher in the poor and working class neighborhoods. Wealthy neighborhoods and ritzy apartment complexes can provide private security or even private armed security for protection. They will have sophisticated monitoring technology and advanced security locks to make robbery and burglary prohibitively difficult in those neighborhoods.

Yet these handgun bans enacted by numerous cities say that citizens who may live in the more crime-ridden neighborhoods cannot protect themselves. They have to depend on the all mighty police to do it for them. The fact is that police will be prone to taking crime more seriously in a wealthy neighborhood than a poor neighborhood anyway.

[fascisthunter]

1. lol

spin spin spin

I'm poor and you are full of it.

[IndianaJones]

2. its a fringe left pet cause. will never get anywhere on any kind of significant scale. nt.

[fascisthunter]

4. it's the fringe right that that seems obsessed with guns

[IndianaJones]

7. the fringe right certainly carries it to the opposite extreme. neither will get what they want. nt.

[Oregone]

13. And maybe thats what you need for a decent balance...

Radicals on each side, but many in the middle do not advocate mandatory carry of 50 caliber rifles, nor the complete banning of .22s.

[Squatch]

8. Yet, here YOU are...posting in every damn gun thread on DU

:eyes:

[fascisthunter]

25. every....awwww. now, now squatch. No Need to exagerate

unless of course....

[Hydra]

3. Correct

I don't live in a high crime area...but I still need a gun. I can't depend on the police to get to me in time if I have a house invader. There are too few of them.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

5. Bullshit

Do you know how much it costs to buy a gun?

Seriously?

One of our friends had offered to sell us his shotgun for £400. For some minimum wage people, that's a lot of money.

To say it's elitist to support some ideal of gun control is absolute bullshit.

[Oregone]

9. You "should" be able to get a shotgun much cheaper than that...if you want something simple

Used 12 gauges aren't exactly pricey.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

54. Oh really then

How much is the cheapest shotgun? In England that was literally the cheapest we could get and we didn't buy it (despite me being quite a crack shot with the clays, it's because we're just starting a new life in terms of the house!)

[ColbertWatcher]

15. It is bullshit, but that's why the GOP will say it n/t

[FunkyLeprechaun]

55. You sure?

Most of the Republicans I know are the ones that are stridently 2nd Amendment. It's one of the few times when I'm a bit confused on the DU website because I have to literally try to read which are Republican and what are DU.

Anyway this happens every once in a blue moon, no use getting blue over it...

[osperto]

57. Saturday Night Special

The ban/cry against saturday night specials was elitist. All they were is inexpensive guns.

Poor people have a right to carry, too.

[Oregone]

6. Gun "control" does not always suggest bans...

It also has to do with registry, limits, waiting periods, firearm safety and education, safety provisions built into devices, minimum standards on firearms (no autos, etc).

In terms of cities I really do not know enough to judge on bans. I try to take a federalist approach to the issue, being that problems I have in a rural area and police response times are probably far different than in the city.

[Kolesar]

14. What do you mean by "federalist"?

please elaborate

[Oregone]

20. perhaps not the right term...

But I mean in a non-homogeneous country, states/regions with different concerns and problems should be granted the autonomy to impose their own rules regionally to address issues (so long as they do not violate the constitution in doing so). For example, the concealed carry laws in my state allow the counties to set restrictions on granting them, by specifying people must perform X amount of hours in a safety education course or other criteria. The counties have individual autonomy in granting such permits and the additional requirements people must meet to get them. I have zero issue with this, being that not all counties have similar issues and crime stats.

[Kolesar]

35. So, regulating weapons should be a power that is reserved to the states ?

do I read correctly?

[Oregone]

38. Not exactly. The states should have additional power, but not the only power.

Local government should be able to impose additional regulations that do not overrule federal law or violate constitutional rights. That's my lowly opinion.

Complete state regulation without federal or constitutional checks is not what I am suggesting at all.

This is really the state of things currently, correct me if I am wrong.

Different states and municipalities have different scenarios, and should have the power to address them reasonably. On the other hand, this works best in a system with just the minimum and necessary federal law. With too much federal legislation, most states would be wanting to repeal federal law (which they cannot due), rather than add additional safety measures.

Government is a delicate balancing act between local and federal needs/desires. Its not a simple black and white process to perfect.

[depakid]

10. I guess EVERY Western nation other than America is elitist

either that, or America is exceptional.

Oh wait- highest homicide and incarceration rates in the wester world (by far) -yep, exceptional indeed.

[texasleo]

18. Yes, let all the murderers out and disarm the law-abiding citizens.

That ought to work.

[depakid]

26. It worked well in Australia

where after one too many mass shootings, the government (backed by a substantial and RATIONAL) majority of citizens banned handguns, pump action shot guns and high capacity magazines for rifles- and engaged in a highly successful gun buyback.

Result?

Dramatically lower homicide rates, NOT A SINGLE MASS SHOOTING SINCE 1994, with corresponding decreases in suicides.

See the science for yourself in the British Medical Journal:

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/12/6/365
-----------------

Unfortunately, Americans consider themselves exceptional and entitled to behave differently than other more responsible nations- which is why in so many ways (healthcare, for instance -or in the creation and maintenance of the worlds largest, growing and most expensive prison system) you've degraded your society to a status fast approaching many third world nations.

Way to go!

[shireen]

48. did you read the letters to the editor following that article?

i don't have time to study the article carefully to figure out the methodology used for gathering statistics. but a few things jumped out while scanning the paper and letters.
- no one really knows how many guns there were/are in Australia.
- gun violence was declining before the "ban" was enacted.
- declines in gun-related incidents could be influenced by other factors. For instance, declines in gun-related suicides could be partly attributed to a government campaign about depression.
- guns are still available for anyone who wants to buy them illegally, so anyone who really wants a gun and is willing to risk jail-time if caught possessing it, can get firearms. Those individuals tend to be criminals.

If you do a google search on this issue, you'll see articles using "statistics" to support BOTH sides of the argument.

BTW, not all guns are banned in Australia. From http://www.ag.gov.au/www/agd/agd.nsf/Page/Firearmsregulation_Frequentlyaskedquestions
Who are now able to own or use firearms?
Anyone who has a genuine reason may own a firearm. For example, members of a recognised sporting shooters club, recreational shooters/hunters with permission from a landholder, primary producers and security employees, bona fide collectors that is, those with a demonstrated need will still be able to own firearms, but not those that are now prohibited.

But I really don't like their gun laws. This excerpt disturbed me:
Don't people have a right to own firearms?
There is no constitutional right to bear arms in Australia. Self defence is not accepted in any State or Territory as a reason for owning a firearm. Anyone who uses a firearm in self defence is subject to the provisions of existing State and Territory criminal laws and the courts' interpretations of those laws.

That's appalling. It's almost like saying, you have no right to defend yourself against criminal harm.


The real reason for most gun violence is fundamentally tied to POVERTY. But no one in positions of power seem to seriously acknowledge that ....

[krispos42]

37. Oh, you mean the western nations...

with a landed and monied aristocracy?

Yup, blue collar all the way.

[depakid]

39. Canada and Australia "a landed and monied aristocracy?"

I don't think so.

Pretty much like America historically- except:

1. No repudiation of the social contract for "free" market libertarianism; and

2. No obsession with- or proliferation of firearms.

[krispos42]

44. And the rest of Europe?

Our problem is the Reaganomics, aka neo-liberalism. Fix the social and economic problems, and the crime rates will plummet appropriately. In other words, fight for what liberals have always fought for, and the goals that you and I want (less crime, less murder) will happen naturally.

Of course, we already have done that to a certain extent without any change at all in the numbers, types, or calibers of privately-owned firearms, but somehow everybody forgets that point in the hysteria.










And more federal graphs, if you're interested:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3517309&mesg_id=3517838

[depakid]

45. The Australian case is much more germaine

as the government actually changed its more American style of policy because it tired of mass shootings and other senseless preventable violence that are commonplace in the states.

Moreover, over time, public culture re: firearms followed suit.

To the extent that the vast majority of Aussies now think Americans are insane with respect to their firearms obsession (among other things).

[krispos42]

46. Yes, we can see the result for ourselves

Same number of homicides, but more rape and assault. Hooray progress!

[depakid]

47. As expected, the inevitable NRA propaganda via graphs!

Had a feeling that they were coming- they always do.

Bottom line that every gun proliferation advocate LOVES to obscure:

NO MASS SHOOTINGS- LOWER HOMICIDE & SUICIDE RATES- ALMOST NO GUN VIOLENCE.

It also ignores the fact that one doesn't have to worry about being shot anywhere one goes- whether in the car:

3rd victim of S.F. road-rage shooting dies

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/qws/ff/qr?Submit=S&term=road+rage&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Search&st=s

at work:

6 dead as argument with boss ends in rampage

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25361852/

or at home:

Police release victim’s name in shooting accident

http://nwanews.com/nwat/News/66531/

btw: trends in graphs aren't evidence of any claim that adding guns to the mix would do anything other than make matters MUCH worse.

But of course, that recognition (of what's obvious to damn near every Aussie- or Canadian for that matter) would require that one accept and take responsibility for the massive and repeated harms and related costs that their firearms obsessions impose on society.

A cost that all too often, innocent people without firearms obsessions have to pay for. With their lives.

[krispos42]

59. Funny, I didn't mention suicide rates.

Care to back up your assertion? Got a graph for the suicide rate of Aussies for the past 10 years? I'd be interested in seeing and saving it for future reference?

Care to also explain why the female and male suicide rates of Aussies is higher than Americans?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_sui_rat_mal-health-suicide-rate-males
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_sui_rat_fem-health-suicide-rate-females


And no mass shootings is hardly progress when your homicide rate is steady and your assault, rape, and robbery stats are up.



My charts are sourced. If you don't believe me, look it up yourself.


And here's another sourced chart that I made from gov'd data:

[ColbertWatcher]

11. That is exactly how the GOP will spin it, good catch. n/t

[Kolesar]

12. the Mayor of Cleveland says that "the easy availability of guns" is enabling crime in his city

Mayor Frank Jackson has put a lot of work into public safety early in his tenure.

[baldguy]

22. Bingo - handguns are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[moondust]

53. And the civilized world knows that.

You don't see any of the more advanced democracies jumping on the U.S. gun culture bandwagon. All they have to do is sit back and watch Americans kill each other on a daily basis to know it sure ain't the way to go.

[daa]

42. That's because he can't stop crime

people need to protect themselves. There would never have been an original revolution in this country if the english had "gun control". How do you protect yourself? Pray? Call the cops? Wit for a good Samaritan"? Maybe log on to DU and beg for help.

Always remember, if guns are so bad then why did big moth Carl Rowan, who railed against guns. shoot some kids for swimming in his pool?

[Kolesar]

43. How do you protect your drug money is what you should be asking...eom

[RaVeN_MeaD]

16. I didn't know a gun could stop a bullet.....nt

wow, I thought guns were only good for scaring people and killing stuff. I didn't realise they were so versitile. :)

Just being a smartass :)

[smoogatz]

17. Lordy.

Gun control is not elitist. It's an attempt to prevent gun crime in urban centers, particularly in low-income/high-crime enclaves. The elitist position would be to sell guns to everyone and let them fight it out, because who gives a shit about a bunch of poor black people, anyway? Which is essentially the position espoused by the "arm everybody" crowd. But hey, it's a moot point—the Supremes just outlawed gun control, essentially.

[jaksavage]

23. So So true. nt

[sharesunited]

19. Gun proliferation is the danger. Not the unavailability of guns.

Curb new production. Halt imports. Aggressively restrict and discourage retail commerce.

[slackmaster]

21. That would have no beneficial impact on public safety

Worse, if our PARTY advocated such a policy we would be assured of Republican control of government at all levels.

What are you thinking?

[sharesunited]

29. If you're saying most Americans are gun nuts who are repulsed by

a reduction of guns in our society, you may be right! (As in right wing.)

Britain made guns unfashionable with a high degree of success.

The USA made child porn unfashionable with a high degree of success.

It is just a matter of taking a public policy stand and arguing consistently that the evil outweighs the freedom.

[slackmaster]

31. If it comes down to evil vs. freedom, count me in on the side of freedom every time

:hi:

[sharesunited]

32. Was that in reference to child porn? Not sure if you were drawing any lines.

[slackmaster]

34. Child porn is evil. Unreasonable gun control is evil, as is any unreasonable restriction.

Freedom is good.

[sharesunited]

36. "Knowledge Is Good." Faber College motto. Animal House (1978)

[slackmaster]

40. "Son, fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life!"

Another Faber College classic.

:hi:

[sharesunited]

41. Senator Blutarsky would have reason to disagree with that.

[fascisthunter]

28. EXACTLY

[Junkdrawer]

24. "Stopping felons and the insane from getting guns" is elitist?

What ev, boss.

[cornermouse]

27. What the heck.

We'll pass a law that says everyone HAS to own a gun and that shooting someone else is no longer a crime. That should take care of the whole gun problem.

[Bright Eyes]

30. People who advocate gun control don't necessarily want to ban guns.

But I'm sure know that.

[sharesunited]

33. How about a global warming analogy? Slow down the greenhouse gases!

Discourage the pouring of poison into the environment. You don't solve the problem overnight. But you plant a flag. You start by starting SOMEWHERE and then diligently working to turn the tide.

Same thing for gun proliferation.

[Wcross]

58. Except for.....

Assualt weapons, staurday night specials, street sweepers, sniper rifles, machine guns, guns that could be converted to machineguns & handguns. Other than that they don't want to ban anything.

Thanks for sharing!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

49. Nonsense

Guns make you more, not less, likely to be shot.

There's nothing elitist about the observation that a piece of legislation whose objective was to make armed rebellion easier, and which nowadays wouldn't even accomplish that, and which has a side effect of tens of thousands of needless deaths every year, should be repealed.

[Fox Mulder]

50. I'm as poor as you can get and I support gun control.

How can that be elitist? What's wrong with promoting peace over the use of guns?

[Dogtown]

51. Am I in the gungeon?

How did I end up down here??

[michreject]

52. I live in a low crime area on the lake

And I still carry a gun every where I go. I take crimes against me personally.

[JackDragna]

56. I shall repeat the same question I ask all anti-control folks..

..if firearms make people safe, then why does the U.S. have one of the worst violent crime rates in the Western world, despite a massive proliferation of firearms?