"92 percent believe in God" -- Problems with the Pew religion survey

[JackRiddler]

This survey is always promoted heavily when it comes out. My impression through the years of Pew Research is that it specializes in extreme conventionalism, always reinforcing the status quo.

Both the media and the report writers themselves play with how they're presenting the results, mainly in what and how they highlight, and what they choose as headlines.

Here's the survey.

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

The question yielding the 92 percent answer is not listed separately there, but from the listing of the results it's clear that it roughly ran, "Do you believe in God or a universal spirit"? Spirit of what? "Universal spirit" is incredibly vague, and I believe many people who are basically atheists but not doctrinaire about it would say they believe in it. On alternate Tuesdays, I also believe in "universal spirit," a concept that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with God. A sociologically valid question would give a choice of multiple answers, and certainly not equate "God" (understood by almost everyone to mean a specific, sentient entity) with "universal spirit" (a variable philosophical concept).

Says the report:

For example, while more than nine-in-ten Americans (92%) believe in the existence of God or a universal spirit, there is considerable variation in the nature and certainty of this belief. Six-in-ten adults believe that God is a person with whom people can have a relationship; but one-in-four – including about half of Jews and Hindus – see God as an impersonal force. And while roughly seven-in-ten Americans say they are absolutely certain of God’s existence, more than one-in-five (22%) are less certain in their belief.

Other paragraphs give more differentiated views and cast doubt on the 92 percent figure, although they don't seem to generate as many newspaper ledes:

Nearly two-thirds of the public (63%) takes the view that their faith’s sacred texts are the word of God. But those who believe Scripture represents the word of God are roughly evenly divided between those who say it should be interpreted literally, word for word (33%), and those who say it should not be taken literally (27%). And more than a quarter of adults – including two-thirds of Buddhists (67%) and about half of Jews (53%) – say their faith’s sacred texts are written by men and are not the word of God.

(Note: I don't even see how Western Buddhists can be considered theists. They're invariably interested in the practice of meditation as a means to overcoming suffering and reaching personal enlightenment, and not the often-flexible doctrines of the religion per se.)

I think the questions concerning "absolutely certain" belief in God and actual practice in the form of attending church services are far closer to the reality of religious adherence and belief in God in the United States:



Then there is the herd effect. In this culture, people are generally reluctant to say they don't believe, or if they are uncertain or their belief is shallow or nominal, they will tend to go with the herd. Starting with the sociologically incompetent mixing of two different concepts in the central question (God vs. "universal spirit"), I see no indication that this survey acknowledged this problem, or attempted to deal with the distortion this would cause. Quite the contrary; the underlying preference seems to be to lump as many of us as possible together in a common identity as "Americans," albeit with a tendency to "tolerance," so that definitive-sounding results can be given.

I'd like to see a survey that acknowledges the herd effect and is clearer about the range of possible answers. Going from these results, it seems to be about one-third of Americans don't really believe in the conventional God but go along with the conventional answer without devoting much thought to it. God isn't a factor in their lives, but they'll express allegiance anyway. Let us recall how atheism in particular has been demonised, and the threats of hellfire from the right. This survey is not taking place in a neutral environment.

Here's another question that's not as clear as the statistics make it seem:



I'm Greek, so to the Orthodox Church I am affiliated even if I don't believe in the religion. On some days I might be inclined -- if a survey called me -- to say I am affiliated, just to see our true numbers reflected against the Anglo-Protestant majority. I'm sure many people, especially nominal Catholics, answered out of this form of team loyalty.

The last question may be closest to the truth, by the way - the 16 percent "unaffiliated" may correlate most closely to the group implicitly telling you they reject religion. You can bet that almost all of the "unaffiliated" grew up in some church or other, or are considered by their own family to be Catholic or Muslim or Protestant, even if they don't think so themselves.

I'd like to see a survey drawn up by atheists and agnostics without a pro-religionist bias, like this one. Hell, I'd like to see one with an anti-religion bias, to see how high the numbers can be pushed when atheists are doing the manipulation!

[madokie]

1. I'm proud to say I'm one of the 8%'ers

[JackRiddler]

5. Or you could be one of the 16%'ers - or 29%'ers - or 44%'ers - or 61%'ers...

Depending on how one wants to spin the various results.

So you should be twice as proud, or perhaps as much as seven-and-a-half times as proud.

[madokie]

7. of couse

I would believe it actually is to be somewhere around 60/40 with believers being the larger of the two. Plus I'm sure its for some like it was in my case where I used to say I believed when I really didn't but didn't know if I should say it or not.

[Cerridwen]

2. Hallelujah, Praise the Lord, and THANK YOU! JackRiddler

I checked the Pew site and summaries when the article was first posted in Editorials. I was just too busy today to type up my observations.

Thank you!

:D

[Dogtown]

3. K&R

and thanks for the research.

[Kutjara]

4. Excellent analysis. So much of that report...

...relies on "have you stopped beating your wife"-type survey techniques and presuppositions about what types of thinking actually constitute "religious faith."

On my bad days, I firmly believe the universe is controlled by an all-powerful yet puerile entity, whose whole purpose is to kick people when they're down and generally make sure that everything that can go wrong, does. Call it "The Great Murphy" or "The Buttered-Side Down Demon", but he/she is always present, ready to lend an unhelpful hand when least needed. Does that make me religious or just a misanthrope?

[Liberal Veteran]

6. I'd like to see the question asked as "Do you believe in a supernatural sky being"

Just to see what the answer is.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

9. The believers in a god

do not even accept that what they believe in is actually supernatural beliefs. They call it spirituality. Which makes it all real believable if you need an invisible friend or a secret copilot.

When I point this out I am viewed as some crazy lunatic who will, at any moment, be struck by a lightening bolt.

I posted a poll here once asking if you could have a moral compass without believing in a god. Not surprisingly, most on this discussion board said you do not need to believe in a god in order to determine right from wrong - but there were several people, even here, who can not understand how an atheist would make ethical decisions without a belief in a GOD - or more correctly an invisible sky being.

So - I guess, as an atheist, some here believe I may go nuts and murder my children when they piss me off since I do not have the ability to make ethical decisions due to my lack of belief in a god. Or if not that severe, I may let them smoke crack and drive to the 7-11 to buy some beer? It made me realize just how strange the believers can really be.:shrug:

[MedleyMisty]

17. My personal theory is that it's projection

They would do that type of stuff if they didn't believe in a supreme being that didn't want them to do it. And it really threatens them when you say you don't believe and they project what they would do if they didn't believe on to you.

[Bobbieo]

12. Now you are getting itno the Native American "Creator:".

[Ichingcarpenter]

8. The collective unconsciousness could also be interpreted as

believing in a 'universal spirt'. I found that part of the survey question
ambiguous and annoying.

[slampoet]

10. The results would have been different if they CHECKED to see if you go to Church.

When i went the pews were empty constantly and nearly every week...


And how many of these people actually GIVE to their church? Even 2% of their income?


Probably fewer than 10% of America actually attends and pays for church. just look around your worship center and I bet you observe the same.

[AZ Criminal JD]

23. You don't have to go to church to believe in God

[slampoet]

38. And apparently from these surveys you don't have to Attend a church to Belong to a church.

Belief has nothing to do with my point.

[warrior1]

11. IF they believe in it

how many live by it 100 percent?

[sam sarrha]

13. 39% of Buddhists believe in god. how'd that happen, a Buddhist doesnt believe a god created or saves

anybody. the gods live in their own realm, where they are born, live, suffer, get old, die and are reborn like everybody else in Samsara. the gods unimaginable powers can not save them from suffering and cyclical rebirth. so how are they supposed to save us.??

the origin of the universe isn't even considered in Buddhism
..any debate would be considered a distraction

[JackRiddler]

15. Samsara!

Getting it sure took me long enough. :blush:

[OffWithTheirHeads]

14. All I can say is if you expect me to believe in a God who is so

insecure that he needs MY sorry ass to worship him, you probably think Bush is doing a heckofa job too.

[cbc5g]

16. I think they are suffering from a mass delusion, but I respect their beliefs

[JackRiddler]

18. The question is how many they really are - "universal spirit" makes it into a joke.

[Leopolds Ghost]

21. Not necessarily. Not at all in fact.

"Universal spirit" is the most reasonable baseline interpretation of what
Supreme Being means.

(as opposed to supernatural, in-universe entities)

All other interpretations might flow from there

(or else be internally inconsistent, in the case of some beliefs
of the "turtles all the way down" variety, which applies to most
29%-ers -- they really do not hold what you and I would call a
meaningful understanding of theology, accurate or otherwise --
their beliefs about not just God but the way the world works
in general are semantically invalid and thus disprovable.)

[JackRiddler]

24. I do not consider "supreme being" at all to be the same as "universal spirit"

The latter could be a living universe, for example, not necessarily one with a head (in whatever form) making decisions, as the phrase "supreme being" implies. "Universal spirit" could be entirely abstract, a pattern derived from the laws and structures of the universe that even atheists might in some form worship.

This is simply not how very large numbers of traditionally religious people on the planet conceive God. To them it's a single being, an all-powerful lord and creator who tends to intervene in their lives directly or respond to prayer; or else it's a pantheon of discreet superpowerful beings with specific characters and wills.

Your further comments to me confirm that "universal spirit" is complex and debatable, and it might signify different concepts to different people. Pew simplistically lumps these divergent concepts together to get the 92 percent figure.

Probably the most important divide, and I think there are about equal numbers on either side of it, is on the line between

a) "there's something awesome out there that I don't really understand" and

b) "there's something specific and literal out there and its name is ______ and it has a will that it conveys to us through commandments/clerics/scriptures/personal revelation."

These are two radically different conceptions of the whatever-it-is, with divergent implications about how one should live life and truck with others. Even when most people lump them together so they can get along.

I don't see the Pew study bothering to define its terms at all!

[muriel_volestrangler]

50. There is the 'personal god v. impersonal force' question they ask

"Six-in-ten adults believe that God is a person with whom people can have a relationship; but one-in-four – including about half of Jews and Hindus – see God as an impersonal force"

Interestingly, the figures for "impersonal force" for some traditions are:

Protestant 19%
Catholic 29%
Orthodox 34%
Muslim 42%

That Muslim figure is basically the same as the 41% who chose 'personal God'. It'd be interesting to know if those figures would apply in Muslim-majority countries too.

The question asked was:

"Question: Do you believe in God or a universal spirit? (IF YES, ASK): Which comes closest to your view of God? God is a person with whom people can have a relationship or God is an impersonal force?"

[JackRiddler]

52. Thanks for finding the question...

Where was it, please?

The question is clearly misleading and invalid.

First: "Do you believe in God or a universal spirit?" (Two different things! Not defined.)

"If YES, ask: Which comes closest to your view of GOD?" (Now the two different things have been tucked together into one.)

Then "God," having been safely rescued for the 92% through the "universal spirit" dodge, can be re-divided (still staying as "God") into "person" or impersonal force.

But to me, the following are clearly three different things:

1) Universal spirit
2) "God" as person
3) "God" as impersonal force

Two of these are simply vague as used here: spirit, force.

It doesn't look as though the survey writers bothered in the first place to define their own terms.

As much as possible, surveys need to employ mutually exclusive options.

It's supposed to be a finding of sociological belief, not a debate on philosophy, but if you ignore the original philosophical question at the core of it -- "What is God?"-- how will you derive valid results?

[muriel_volestrangler]

54. Yeah, it's far from perfect, as a question

but I found the number of self-identified Christians who go for the 'impersonal force' interesting - it indicates that even sects with quite a dogmatic approach have many members who see things quite differently. I expect those who think of a 'universal spirit' will have gone for 'impersonal force', but many who'd call it 'God' will also go for that option.

To find the question wording, I had to go to the full, hundreds of pages, report - there's a link on the page you gave.

[JackRiddler]

58. Thanks. This matter of what question is asked is everything.

Thinking about this casually, for such a high-budget study that took years I would have first experimented with different questions and question orders to see how the results vary depending on the survey. (Maybe they did and did not tell us!) And I would point to those first experiments and make the survey choices explicit in the final report.

I'd try to devise a set of roughly exclusive options that do not explicitly define the person's affiliation but find out how they define God, along the lines of

a) God is like a person who created the world and watches us all.
b) God is like an impersonal force that is everywhere and made the world.
c) God is a good way to describe the natural order and laws of the universe.
d) God was made up by people on this earth to describe things they don't understand.

Then, rather than or before a yes-no, you could ask people to choose among categories closest to their views:

I believe in a personal God who takes part in our lives.
I believe God watches the world but doesn't intervene.
I believe God is a name for a universal spirit or force.
I am not sure if there is a God.
I do not believe there is a God.

Also, the order of the answers will change the results too. You should probably randomize it. (Otherwise the top is legitimated as authoritative and the middle is always favored as "moderate.")

Finally, you ask them to label themselves from a set that includes believer, agnostic, atheist.

[Dogtown]

56. I don't, cbc5g,

respect either them or their "beliefs". "Beliefs" aren't real things, and often they're merely wishes. "Beliefs" that don't include persecution or exclusion based on sexual preferences, those are belief systems I can respect. Beliefs that don't include mandating the performance of the female reproductive system. Beliefs that don't include seconding our government to false prophets.

I would not negate their right to worship as they choose, but I refuse to listen to or condone such spiteful infancy.

[babylonsister]

19. I'll play from your comments. My DH was an alter boy in his youth, now

he's in the reserves. His dad is dastardly, divorced him mom after 39 years of marriage and tried to disown his 4 adult kids because of religion. Or wanting to get remarried in the church. :eyes:

Makes no sense to me as a practicing agnostic with no religion like that!

[JackRiddler]

20. Your DH? Designated Hitter?

I thought you were in the National League. ;)

[Fox Mulder]

22. I'm not part of the 92%.

I'm not an atheist either. I just don't know if any of it exists. I don't have knowledge (hence, agnostic) on whether or not there is a God or Gods, or Heaven or Hell.

But I think about it every day.

[JackRiddler]

25. See post 24. Thanks!

[anonymous171]

26. You're right, that's a pretty vague question. Lumps spiritual-types with religious-types.

[JackRiddler]

27. Also lumps in as believers the undecideds or people who have no strong views at all.

[Oeditpus Rex]

28. I think the 'herd' is the major factor in these results

Even when speaking to a stranger (or clicking buttons on a web page) and knowing their answers will be anonymous, a great many Americans are still afraid to admit to a lack of belief or a diminished belief in the Judeo-Christian god.

It's some holdover from youth — parental teachings, Sunday school or whatever — a baseless fear, but a fear nevertheless, that lightning will strike them or they'll go to hell or Something Bad will happen if they don't profess complete belief, even if they're lying.

Ergo, this survey is crap, which is why I get angry when Teh Mee-dee-ah cite it without analysis.

[Mythsaje]

29. I'm getting to the point I seriously don't CARE if there's a God.

I figure that people have done enough damage thinking that God was going to come around and fix what they've fucked up. Rather than do something meaningful to improve the lives of those around them, and thus themselves, they pray to an alleged deity to save them the trouble.

In some respects I'm pantheistic--if there's ANY kind of God, it's All That Is and we sentients are the reasoning part of it, however feeble we may be in that department. If our psycho-social attributes ever catch up to our technological skills, we may be worth a damn some day. In the meantime we just stumble along trying not to do a face-plant in the firmament.

The Christian concepts of God make no damn sense to me at all. The God described in the Old Testament was a fucking psychotic bastard not even capable of living up to the damn rules he allegedly made for US to follow. He apparently wiped out whole civilizations, or prodded his worshippers into doing it. And then, feeling generous, he sent his "only begotten son" down here as a human sacrifice to absolve us of OUR sins (never mind his own) and now all we have to do to reach paradise is give our loyalty to that son and we'll be "saved."

Oookay. And Hell? Don't even get me started on that. Sheesh. A just and loving God who loves us so much that if we don't pick the right sect to follow, we're going to be condemned to an eternity of pain and suffering? What a fucking psychopath that deity turned out to be. So neurotic that, although allegedly omnipotent and omniscient, he requires the worship of creatures so lowly as to be like ants in comparison to his magnificence. And if we don't--hellfire awaits.

Where does all this start making sense? The older I get, the less sense it makes. When I hear otherwise intelligent people talking about this stuff I have to stifle a scream. What am I missing? Why do people hear this stuff and buy into it?

Sometimes I almost envy them because they seem so certain. They have a roadmap to follow and know where it's supposed to lead them.

My novels all more or less reflect my antagonism toward religion in general. Some of my main characters are immortals who've played at being Gods in the past, and thus have a jaded view of such things. "God-Powers" are simply abilities they gain by tapping into the unconscious energy of worshippers. As worshippers decline, they lose these abilities. One of the only ones that retain any such power by the 21st Century is Gabriel, who played the roles of Moses, John the Baptist, and Christ himself. Then, a few centuries later, became Mohammed as well.

He's not well-liked by his fellow immortals, to say the least. Some suspect he collaborated with the Cen as they prepared Earth Prime for their eventual invasion. They destroyed the human ability to use magic, then initiated the persecution of those who managed to avoid the diseases they'd built to do so.

The Cen often use religion to soften up a world they mean to invade. It makes a convenient handle or, failing that, a weapon with which to bludgeon the population into submission long before they send their first troops in to take control.

I figure that eventually people will start catching on and I'll have some fairly pissed off theists to contend with... I might find myself as popular in those circles as Pullman.

And you know what? I can live with that.

[JackRiddler]

33. Heh. Sounds like great fun, your series.

Thank you!

[Mythsaje]

40. I like to think so...

And thank YOU,

:)

[spoony]

30. Why do you care?

Why do you have such a NEED for that number to be lower? One would think you would be happy you're so elite. Just think of the huge numbers of people you can look down on and you'll feel better about this survey.

[JackRiddler]

32. Because bullshit should in public discourse is intolerable. Or:

With that attitude, why do YOU care? About anything? This survey has been presented uncritically on every media outlet two days in a row. It's supposed to tell us something important about "Americans."

This morning a softball interview with one of the survey writers woke me up on the alarm clock radio. That's a pretty big PR campaign. (And yes, I will change that radio station!)

If the news media told you for two days straight that 92 percent of "Americans" express love for "Domino's Pizza or universal food," and meanwhile Domino's Pizza was best known for the doctrine that it created everything and everyone who didn't eat it would go to hell, and if love for Domino's Pizza was a requirement for all candidates running for office, at least if they wanted to win... why might not you, dedicated McDonald's eater that you are, just accept it and feel superior to the world's fools?

In fact, why do you care about anything in the public sphere? Why discuss or debate issues? What threat to your self esteem possesses you to use your mouth or fingers to speak at all?

Just think of all the implicit false assumptions you can project on others in the comfort of your own head, not to mention the fallacious beat-down tactics. Remember, all statements you disagree with must be attributable to the speaker's psychology. No facts or conclusions can be reached independently, or matter if they are. Thanks.

[spoony]

42. Yep, it's a conspiracy. Just like 9/11.

And...aliens are behind it. No shitting. I heard it on Coast to Coast AM.

[JackRiddler]

45. Brilliance. Thanks. Keep it up.

[cherokeeprogressive]

55. Why do you hate Dominos?

[bunkerbuster1]

35. Oh, stop being so damned defensive

I'm a regular churchgoer myself; I just don't like ass-wipes like James Dobson looking at those Pew numbers and declaring that we are a "Christian nation" because of it.

[spoony]

41. We're not a "Christian nation" but we are apparently a religious one

So what though?

[roguevalley]

43. dobson in my mind is a heretic, a fraud. I don't include him in my

thinking or anyone like him. The man from Galilee that I respect and consider my rabbi is so far from that they call him out to be, I can't find enough bad words to call them. Fuckers. They have ruined philosophy, religion and spirituality for too many.

[MiniMe]

31. There is a difference between believing in God and being exteme about it

I believe in God. Do I have any proof? Of course not, that is why it is a belief. However, I don't let it rule my life. And there is a difference between believing and telling other people what they should believe and what they should believe and practicing your religion as a personal expression of faith. In other words, I believe that it is up to the individual what they should believe.

I'll use Jimmy Carter as an example. Jimmy is a very religious man, and closer to a fundie than I am for sure. But he never tried to impose his religion on anybody, and while he was guided by his religion he believed in the greater good and he believed that it up to you how you practice your religion.

The problem with the fundie movement today is that they want everybody in lockstep with what they believe and how they practice their religion, even what they should believe, there is no room for individuality. They don't believe in helping the poorest amoung us or the greater good. The fundies don't ask what would Jesus do, they try to tell you this is what Jesus would do.

There is nothing wrong with believing in God, or Allah, or whoever you beleve in. But religious extremism in any form for any religion is a bad thing.

[bunkerbuster1]

34. Thanks, because James Dobson is getting all defensive 'n shit...

I've been listening to his revolting dump-on-Obama program just released by Focus on the Phallus (I won't link it here--if you're interested, it's easy enough to find).

Dobson is all upset because Obama has seen these figures and more or less interprets them as you do. Dobson and the Christianists want America to think that we are a "Christian Nation" and of course Dobson clings to the notion that we are "78% Christian".

[JackRiddler]

36. I think even he can agree that

something like 21 percent are apparently papists heading to hell with the atheists, right?

So much bullshit, so little time...

[bunkerbuster1]

37. Look a little deeper in the latest Pew poll--Dobson's in a serious minority.

I see this as a very welcome sign that Americans aren't religious crazies:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/dmn/stories/062408dnrelpewstudy.2f6d9020.html

A willingness to accept diverse views could be found even in members of many faith traditions known for strictly defined religious truths: More than 60 percent of those who said they were Southern Baptists said many religions can be right about how to get to the hereafter. And about eight in 10 Catholics said there was more than one true interpretation of their faith.

In both of those cases, the majority seems to be at odds with official teachings. Members of much smaller religious groups also expressed disagreement with some of the official teachings of their faith.

About six in 10 Buddhists say they believe in Nirvana, and about the same percentage of Hindus say they believe in reincarnation. Those concepts are central to most descriptions of the two faiths, so what does that say about the other 40 percent of those groups?

Some results are baffling: How to explain that one fifth of those who said they were atheists also said they believe in God, and that one in 10 said they pray at least once a week? The Pew researchers say they think there's more to it than simple misunderstanding.

Almost eight in 10 of those surveyed said they believe in "absolute standards of right and wrong." But only a third said they turned primarily to religious teachings to set their standards.

[defendandprotect]

48. And isn't the Rev. Jim Wallis helping to wake up all Christians re Global Warming . . .????

[Hydra]

39. This was my view when I saw this yesterday

YHVH has no relation to the idea of a universal consciousness. Lumping them together is a transparent attempt to marginalize people who ARE sure that there is no bearded white man sitting on a throne judging our every action.

They even lumped the "might be's" in with the believers! Even I'm a "might be"- If I saw YHVH sitting at a cafe sipping a mango martini, I'd revise my opinion on the likeliness of his existance...but not enough to start doing what he says.

It's sad when churches have to fudge numbers or lie outright to bolster their numbers- they're doing that about the divorce rate among their flock. Hard numbers are consistently higher among the religious vs. the non-religious, yet they STILL claim that the religious are more moral and more likely to stay together.

A good religion should sell itself. The fact that they have to go to such ridiculous lengths says something about them.

[earth mom]

44. This is propaganda. I don't believe it for a minute.

Someone needs to look up who is actually funding this kind of "study".

Religious organizations can't have people not believing in their god because they want a sheeple mentality in order to get everyone's money.

Can't have the "faithful" straying and learning that it's all a crock.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

[JackRiddler]

46. That's a big research project...

Going from a quick browse through a bunch of links on their site, Pew is a big foundation that originated in the Sun Oil fortune and they seem to have their finger in every issue and cultural pie from a centrist-reformist perspective. Figuring it out would take a few hours, but the pattern here seems to be acceptance of conventional thinking in all things. Nothing I saw so far looks too sinister, mostly innocuous, except for the usual underlying matter of how an old family fortune gets to influence every issue and tie reformist energies to whatever its agendas are and get to call itself charitable in the process.

[defendandprotect]

47. Isn't PEW connected to the oil industry . . . ????

As far as I've read, people exaggerated their religious inclinations in these surveys and

a lot will say they go to church regularly, but it then turns out they don't...

Additionally, if you look at what's happening with the Catholic Church in America, many

Catholics have had their eyes opened over the priest-sexual abuse of young children ---

and the huge amounts of money spent over decades by the church trying to keep everyone's

mouth shut about it !!

And they succeeded rather well ---

Also there's the BS issue of birth control --- and abortion . . . just as many Catholic women

have abortions as any other women --- !!!

MEANWHILE, the Vatican is writing off the US, Great Britain and Latin America -- cause

people there are waking up too much.

The Vatican now finds its future profits rising in Africa and China ---


PS: That doesn't mean that the Vatican is going to get out of our hair ---

I can only presume that a lot of $$ changed hands in order to bring about

the "faith-based" subsidies which the Bush/Cheney people arranged which mainly

benefit the Catholic Church.

ALSO keep in mind that it was the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church who

defeated the Equal Rights Amendment long ago in America. Evidently a lot of $$

was also involved there ---

[Dukkha]

49. the so called 92% has always been a grandiose lie

perpetrated by the christian organized polls to try to perpetrate the illusion that the US is an alleged "christian nation". I guarantee you the majority of the 78.4 polled never set foot in a church and worship the altar of the NFL every Sunday. Many just claim christian out of fear of being ostracized by their peers.

[ButterflyBlood]

61. NEVER set foot in a church?

I'll buy that many aren't regular church-goers, but have never gone to church ever in their lives? Uh, no.

[KG]

51. or - and I'm more inclined to believe this - they're just making shit up.

[JackRiddler]

53. Effectively, yes.

But making it up through a survey that involves thousands and arrives at an inevitable conclusion (due to basic flaws) is a) more credible b) justifies next year's fundraising and grants.

[L0oniX]

57. Believing in God is fine but church is for suckas. If you can read the bible...

you don't need a minister or priest to tell you what it says or means. They just want your money so they can send their kids to college and they can have a killer health care insurance policy for their family and a $1,000,000 home and 2 new BMW's not to mention a $10,000,000 church building with stain glass, gold, silver, fancy idols, oak seats, marble floors and a $2,000,000 pipe organ. Oh yea ...watch out for those "pay your tithes" sermons which you will hear regularly and if you don't pay them you will be sanctioned or even kicked out. All the so called bible based denominations serve as the evidence that none of them have a handle of the exact truth of the matter. All of them say they have the exclusive truth and none of them do. They are just clubs of like minded suckas. Trust no man when it comes to your personal belief because if there is any penalty for not getting the truth, they won't be paying it for you.

[LanternWaste]

60. e're all just like-minded "suckas".

"They just want your money so they can send their kids to college and they can have a killer health care insurance policy for their family and a $1,000,000 hom..."

My pastor lives in a small, two-bedroom house on the "bad" side of town with his wife and two daughters. Over 3/4 of our tithing goes to church upkeep, meals-on-wheels, and a small, community outreach program for the homeless.

But yeah... we're all just like-minded "suckas".

[JackRiddler]

59. bump

[havocmom]

62. If so, there are a lot of people who don't think they'll have to answer to him/her

Personally, behavior indicates most people don't believe in a god. They sure act like they don't have to answer for anything.

[JackRiddler]

63. So you think genuine belief in a god guides one to make better moral choices?

That's an interesting hypothesis.

[havocmom]

64. Not at all. I do think too many people run on fear of reprisals rather than a personal moral code

Too much worry about what 'the other' thinks makes so many all PR and not much substance. IF so many really believe in god, most in this culture would likely believe in a god as judge too. There are sure plenty of people trying to convince others to behave by a particular code or god will be harsh with them. It doesn't seem to stop them from being bad themselves. One only as to look as far as many TV pulpits to see what I mean.

Point is, many believe in image and saying they believe in god seems to just be window dressing for many.

I'll take a personally responsible agnostic or atheist over someone who figures they can be an asshole and it's OK because they are somehow saved by something outside themselves. I just think if that many really believed, there wouldn't be so much hypocrisy among 'the faithful'.

There are highly moral and highly spiritual people all over and a belief in god does not seem to matter to them.