Should higher education be restricted to only those that can afford it?

[devilgrrl]

Earlier today, someone brought up the subject of private universities, which lead me to ask the question.

Personality, I think if you're a bright individual, colleges and universities should be free of cost, Private or otherwise.

[skooooo]

1. Higher education...

Also includes community college. I think it would be great if cc was free or nearly free. That would be a good place to start. A lot of kids in college would be better off in cc to make up for what highschool did not teach them (or what they neglected to learn there).

[Blue Belle]

9. The problem with community college...

is they are getting flooded with State school students looking to full-fill their general ed requirements through cheaper and smaller community college classes. These schools were created to educate people for 2 year degrees with most of the students being trade/vocational oriented. Now these students have to struggle to get into general ed classes along with transfer and State school students. It should also be noted that community colleges are usually among the first schools to suffer when federal aid is cut.

[boobooday]

2. I teach in higher education

If my students were restricted to only those who could afford it, the university wouldn't be able to achieve the goal of educating them.

[sudopod]

3. I presume the people that voted yes did it

for the lulz. :p

No one here is that big of a douchebag, surely?

[Sadie4629]

4. I'd have checked "other"

I think there are a lot of ways to "earn" your college tuition that doesn't involve $$$. I think good students should be rewarded for the work they do in high school, for staying out of trouble, contributing to their communities, participating in extracurricular activities, and for generally making their high schools better places when they leave than when they got there.

There are a lot of kids screwing around in high school, and interfering with the ability of others to get an education, who would be doing the very same thing in college. We don't need that.

[heidler1]

5. The active mind is apt to be an unruly mind. We need active minded people.

Many boys do not even try to conform till they are 17 or later. Girls might have the same problem, but not being a girl, I don't know.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

12. They do, but they don't get away with it as much.

Least not when I was in school. I'll never forget a (female) 10th grade English teacher rebuking us girls for being noisy with, "It's one thing when the boys do it, but I expect you to behave like young ladies!" I had messages like that repeated to me from a very early age and they tend to stick.

[MedleyMisty]

13. I have ovaries and I have never felt the need to try to conform.

I'm not a sheep. Never have been and never will be.

[Ichingcarpenter]

17. Most extracurricular activities are extraneous hyperboles

That have nothing to do with higher academic education. Sports such as football, cheerleading and basketball drain the budgets of high schools and also colleges. Community sports clubs could provide the dichotomy that is needed.


High Schools should be totally changed to meet the needs of the students and society for the 21st century with early programs on educational choices and career paths. The system that is set up now doesn't really do either very well for the student that wants the vocational, academic or technical path.

[readmoreoften]

19. The OP said QUALIFIED. Class clowns would not be QUALIFIED. Hate to break it to you.

But the only thing standing in the way of class clowns and college is mommy-daddy money. The disruptive class clown is likely to get a 4 year ride at Private Snooty U. The poor kid is likely to get an 80% scholarship to a school she STILL can't afford to attend.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

35. No the OP said *especially* for qualified not *only*..

[rucky]

6. Sliding scale tuition. Minimum achievement test scores for 4-year

But not for 2-year.

Those who can afford it should pay something, otherwise the burden will be thrown back on all of us, anyways in the form of new taxes.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

7. I voted yes because the question is asinine..

Yes. If you can't afford the cost of higher education, then you have no business being there

No. Higher education should be FREE, especially for those who are qualified.

--

There are certainly many more options than this and this should not be determined at the federal level. For example how about you work for a few years to save up?

My brother in law moved from NYC to Berkley and worked for a year or two so he was a resident and, with the money he saved up, went to Berkley (while still working) On the face of it he could not afford it

I went right to state school in NY and took out loans which while pretty bad the first few years out of school are now rather small monthly payments with low interest.

--

If my state wanted to provide free education for qualified residents (say the top 10% of any public HS in the state) then more power to them I would vote for that in a second! If, however, someone in DC decided the they should be the gateway to higher education I would have a serious problem!

[devilgrrl]

10. You voted yes because you think that. Work a few years to save up to $30,000? Take out loans...

Yep, it's that easy.

Also, I think it's great that a lot of doctors and dentists spend the first half of their careers paying back student loans. It's no wonder that they take kickbacks from drug companies.

College shouldn't cost a f&#@ing cent - PERIOD!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

22. It is that easy

It should not be something kids stumble into and have no appreciation for, I have seen the difference between people who have to work and take loans for school and those who go without spending a cent...

Its amazing! how lazy and unappreciative people who get free school can be...

[devilgrrl]

23. Yep. That's why there shouldn't be any assistance of any kind - people would take advantage of it.

:eyes:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

26. Are you really that obtuse?

"If my state wanted to provide free education for qualified residents (say the top 10% of any public HS in the state) then more power to them I would vote for that in a second!"

I am also in favor of inflation level interest loans to students, but hey you can take the moral high ground if you completely bastardize what I say so have at it...

:eyes:

[AP]

49. You can't gain residence status in California by living there for a year before college

You have to have gone to a California high school for, I believe, 2 years.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

58. umm no..

http://www.dvc.edu/admissions/residency.htm

Physical Presence

· Persons capable of establishing residence in California must be physically present in the state for one year prior to the residence determination date to be classified as a resident student.

· Physical presence within the state solely for educational purposes does not constitute establishing California residence regardless of the length of that presence.

Intent

Intent to establish California residency may be manifested in many ways, some of which are as follows:

1. Being the petitioner for a divorce in California.

2. Establishing and maintaining active California bank accounts.

3. Maintaining permanent military address or home of record in California while in the armed forces.

4. Paying California state income taxes as a resident.

5. Possessing a California driver's license.

6. Possessing a motor vehicle that is registered in California.

7. Registering and voting in California.

Waiting Period

The residence period in which a student must wait to become a California resident when first entering the state does not begin to run until the student is present in California and has clearly shown the intent to make California their permanent home of residence.

Residence Determination Date

The residence determination date is the day immediately preceding the first day of instruction of the semester during which the student proposes to attend college.

Burden of Proof

It is the student's responsibility to demonstrate clearly both physical presence in California and the intent to establish California residence. We reserve the right to require proof of residence at any time.


--

So Move there, get a job, pay state income tax, and have a bank account in the state and viola you are a ca resident..

[AP]

63. My mistake. If you're under 18 there are different rules, which are:

http://registrar.berkeley.edu/Residency/legalinfo.html (see the #4 - special rules for minors).

If you want to start as first year student paying in-state tuition and you're under 18 when you start, and your parents are not residents of CA, you have to have lived in the state the previous two years, and you have to have lived with someone who was a resident for the previous one year, and you have to have been in school that entire time.

[KamaAina]

8. Private universities do not necessarily charge big bucks out of pocket

indeed, the trend among the Ivies in particular is to eliminate all parental contributions below a certain income level. The trend is led, it pains me to admit, by Harvard, which has required no parental contribution for those earning below $40,000 for several years.

K-A
Yale '85, cum laude, which Gee Dubya Bush** '68 didn't get and couldn't spell anyway :P

[taught_me_patience]

11. College should not be free

People need to pay something in order to have "skin in the game." Otherwise, it would be too easy to quit... thereby wasting tax payer money on partial educations.

[Ichingcarpenter]

15. Seems to have worked just fine in Europe for over half a century or more

They don't consider the education of their citizens "wasting tax payers money".

[devilgrrl]

18. Getting people killed seems to be the only exceptable use of tax payers money these days.

Fuck health care and education - that would be a waste of tax payers money!!!!!

[maryf]

38. Cheers!!

as would housing and any program for the betterment of the people! marching papers are the best value for the tax payers money...:grr:

[pampango]

50. Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought that the US had a higher percentage

of college-age citizens actually attending college than does Europe.

My recollection was that in the US it is relatively easy to get into college, but difficult to pay for it, while in most of Europe it was difficult to get into college (hard entrance exams and other entrance requirements), but easy to pay for (since it is free or very cheap).

If Europe is able to maintain similar, or better, levels of college participation while reducing the cost to the student, then that is a system that we should strive to be more like. If, on the other hand, we would have to reduce college participation rates and limit it to high-achieving high school graduates (who statistically tend to come from middle and upper class families), that would be a more problematic moral problem.

[readmoreoften]

20. So Mommy and Daddy's money is SKIN IN THE GAME? Fucking please.

If you think any of my rich students thought their multi-millionaire parents' money was their own skin in the game, you've got to be kidding. Why should my brighter middle class and poor students have to work at Taco Bell and go into severe debt while Susie Richass gets a free ride, daddy-bought expensive clothes, and the rights to any high level internship she wants because she had the time and could afford the $600 dress-to-impress suit.

Skin in the game, my ass. Rich get richer, poor get $200K in college debt and struggle to find $30K jobs is more like it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

34. 200K in college debts? really..

What in state public tuition rate is 50K per year.. Pen State is 12K per year and thats the highest in the nation so please, if were going to have an honest discussion about this lets not exaggerate the numbers..

I went to a SUNY school in the late 90's I worked 10-15 hours a week during the academic year, took out loans as needed, and worked my tail off in the summers (40-60 hours a week) and a job selling balloons at parades on the weekends. This work got me about 6-8K per year and the tuition *today* is only 6K..

If you wanted to live on campus that was another 7K (which I did) so I ended up coming out with that debt 4*7 = 28K, the last year I got a co-op job and lived at home because I, for the first time in my life (21), could afford a car.

5 years, a total of 28K of debt, and a first job offer of 40K a year and I am in no way exceptional. I had some help from my parents my first year and moral support after that but even if I had decided to loan out the whole thing I would not have touched 100K (let alone 200K).

Working to earn something makes it more appreciated and yes your taco bell working students will appreciate their education more and 9/10 times they get more out of it.

in what state school in NY would an in state student possibly rack up 200K in debt?

--

In my last three years I worked as a lab instructor and I can tell you it took me less than a week to tell who was there on a free ride (either scholarship or parents) and who at least had to work to buy books and food, they were the ones soaking in every word..

[EFerrari]

36. My debt was easily 200K. More like 250K.

I got scholarships and grants and worked, too.

And it's simply not true that students who are helped by their parents or by scholarships don't attend to their studies as a class. There are people in those groups that are time serving but there are many more who work their asses off, as well. I don't think anyone in my grad class of 19 could have been there without help from someone and we put in a minimum of 60 hours a week on our studies alone. We worked and we slept and did that for years.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

40. You did not go to a state school

so you decided to go to a more expensive program, I was accepted at a more expensive university 17K per year not 5K and I decided it was not worth the extra debt..

And I did not say all students I said 9/10 were not as focused as the kids who worked, were on some scholership, or taking out loans... The ones who had all the finances taken care of by mom or dad were, generally, weaker students. Not dumber, just not as motivated *generally*!

[TBF]

41. I did go to the state school. My dad was a blue-collar (steel mill),

disabled vet. He finally stopped working when the doctors had to do more surgery, and I was able to squeak through my fine public university with part-time work, GI bill, and loans/grants. UW-Madison was only $800/semester in the mid-80's. Just giving a little background.

My feeling is that public universities/colleges should be much harder to get into in this country, and that they should be free for those who are qualified, based primarily on test scores. We should also have a much more extensive public community college system to educate people for trades (which includes many repetitive white collar jobs).

I don't think I'm a better person because I worked in college, or that I appreciated my education more because I had to work. If anything I was annoyed that I couldn't take more courses or always had to plan my classes around my work schedule. People have these fantasies in our country that "only if you work hard enough" you can "pull yourself up" no matter who you are or what your natural abilities happen to be.

[EFerrari]

59. I only applied to Berkeley because they had the best financial aid

package plus student housing and other stuff. I actually couldn't have afforded to go to one of our state colleges at all. Isn't that something. At least at Berkeley, I got funding on the front end that I could then pay back. At the state school, I couldn't have even paid the tuition. :crazy:

[taught_me_patience]

55. 200k WTF

The only people with 200k debts are people who chose to attend private schools. Therefore, I believe, they have no right to complain about their debt load. I attended the University of Hawaii (1996-2000), which cost $1,500/semester. Room and board, at the time, was about $2,000/semester. Total yearly cost of school was $7,000/year. I worked low paying jobs during the school year and summer time and was able to nearly cover the entire cost of tuition with those earnings. In my junior and senior year, I worked as an RA, and received free room and board. I got out of school with no debt. Working throughout college gave me a greater appreciation for the education I was receiving, and the future potential that that education represented.

You are seriously mistaken if you believe a $600 dress-to-impress suit makes any difference in low level candidates getting a job. It's all about resume and connections. Granted, the wealthy have an advantage in this category. However, it only helps getting your foot in the door. They still have to perform. I started out of college at $24k, but through hard work and a bit of luck, make more than three times that now (7 years later).

[LeftishBrit]

64. People do not drop out in record numbers in countries with free/subsidized higher education

In fact, you are more likely to quit if you're heavily in debt.

And even 'free' higher education isn't truly free for the student, as they have to spend three years not earning, or earning far less than what they could earn if not studying.

[ismnotwasm]

14. Oh hell no

The more I think about it, the scarier the whole thing sounds. My own observation, but people without much cash who try for higher education tend to be bright and motivated in the first place, and probably don't need the personal responsibility lectures

[MedleyMisty]

16. Why is it scary?

The great unwashed masses might figure out what's up and rebel if they get a little learning?

[aikoaiko]

21. State university tution is FREE in GA if you have a B GPA and stay out of trouble --- for everyone

If you move to GA, you pay for your first year to prove your academic mettle and then its free.

If GA can do it, any state can do it.

[carlyhippy]

24. that would be so wonderful, I wish I could move my kid there

it's so expensive for college, and I still have one to put thru school after my oldest.

[mitchum]

33. However, there have been 2 terrible consequences to that...

this place (Athens,GA) is now completely overrun with "Marietta's Finest" and "Sons of Dunwoody"

2) Developers have completely ruined this town. All of the Dad Dunwoodys are now thinking, "Since I don't have to pay for Trey's tuition, I'll buya condo that he can live in while he is in school, and then I can rent it to other students after he graduates"
Of course, there are now countless quicky condo developments throughout this town. And the bitter irony? The things are of such shoddy quality, after Trey graduates in 5 or 6 years with his communications, marketing, or busness degree, the condo will be barely fit for habitation.

[TBF]

43. But you'll have that anyway one way or another.

The reality is that by providing education at least poor people have a chance. Trey is going to get a college education either way, and be your boss. That is the thing people don't like in this thread - that the rich are always going to be able to have education whether they appreciate it or not. Sad fact of life is that it is true. You're not going to keep them out. Wishing them away won't help, and mocking them isn't productive. The way you fight back is by educating our bright economically disadvantaged children. Give at least some of our kids a chance and maybe they can get into positions of power and change things.

I gave my history a few threads back - although I grew up poor I now have a good income and my kids already have their college accounts in place. But I don't vote Republican despite my income. I remember what it's like not to have money, and I vote democratic so other kids have a chance as well.

[Lyric]

25. 4-year universities should be both free and merit-based.

Free of tuition, but with merit-based admissions standards. I don't mean test scores, either. A writing portfolio, a "project", a paper, a test, an interview, your high school transcript, your GED test scores...all of these things should be considered equally valuable when determining college admission.

Having rich parents who are also alumni? Not so much.

[solinvictus]

27. Free with the caveat...

..that the recipient of the free tuition must maintain a B average and must perform a year's paid service either in the military or in some manner of civil service. It's absolutely stupid that we treat higher ed like a consumer commodity in America when it's a necessity. There are far too many smart people who have wasted their potential due to a lack of $$ to attend college, university, or technical school. I get sick of the rationale for importing H1B workers: we can't find qualified Americans. Well, dipshit, if we had a rational education policy, that wouldn't be a problem.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

28. This has to be the finest construction of a polling question EVER.

Nice Manichean world you live in.

You're either with us or against us.

[devilgrrl]

31. Yeah, well it's the world that we've turned into.

:hi:

The United States of You're On Your Own.

[lonestarnot]

29. Four lumps for lumpy! Ackety ack ack

:puke:

That thing got my blood a boil'n.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J51LEr-k9M

[cayuga]

30. College education is free in Iraq. n/t

[AlCzervik]

32. it shouldn't be restricted to anyone with the grades to get in.

[old mark]

37. It seems that despite continuing pleas for more money

many private colleges are awash with cash, especially the more well-known schools.

It is a shame that we are not enabling every person regardless of age who wants higher education to get all they want.

mark

[TBF]

45. My husband went to one of the Ivy league schools - parental

sacrifice and loans got him through. That school has an endowment that is greater than the budget of many small countries. The rich do indeed take care of their own.

[erpowers]

39. Free Education

It would be nice if some of the millionaires and billionaires of the world, especially America would use a portion of their money to assure that a college education is free. It would be helpful if they at least tried to allow students from poor and middle class families to have a free education.

[TBF]

47. Some do - they donate to their alma maters and those colleges do make a certain

amount of scholarships available to the needy. The other way to do this is to vote for someone like Obama who actually repeals the tax cuts George Bush put in place for the top 1% of the country. You take that money and make public colleges merit-based and free.

[tom_paine]

42. There should be a third option, with an answer in between yes and no.

Because while I mostly agree with the "no" option, neither do I believe that Higher Education should be totally free. Besides, I hate to say this because it jibes with a Bushie Talking Point (which is lies wrapped aroung a grain of truth and this is th grain of truth part), nothing is really FREE.

I like the solution we were evolving towards before Reagan (which was really the Extended Imperium of Bush the Elder, 1980-1992) came along and began the process of ending the Old American Republic.

College still costs, but a working class kid could get grants and loans to make it up, the more impoverished a person is, the higher the mix of grants to loans.

It was a good system, now replaced by minimal grants and predatory student lending to corporate universities where critical thinking skills aren't taught much, anymore.
So I can't vote in your poll, devilgrrl, because there no option that adequately expresses how I feel about this issue.

[devilgrrl]

44. Thank you for your insight

:-)

[tom_paine]

46. Thank you for starting this thread.

:hi:

[HughBeaumont]

48. 36 Sure-Fire Ways to Know that Your Empire is CRUMBLING!

http://www.dailyreckoning.com/Featured/Green2507.html

#22: You know your empire's crumbling when instead of making it easier for citizens to obtain a higher education, you're making it harder and more expensive.

It's no accident, really. The dumber a citizenry is, the easier they are to control. It's almost as if the corporations (who work hand in hand with universities) not only work as much as possible to make higher education unattainable except for the upper crust, but make job qualifications so stringent (no matter WHAT the task) that they can use it as an excuse to seek the cheapest labor possible for them.

[L0oniX]

51. Iraq had free higher education and health care ...and that's why we had to destroy their country

Cuba also has free higher education and health care and that's why the US government hates Cuba.

:sarcasm: ?

[El Pinko]

52. So dumb people shouldn't have a decent quality of life?

Not that I think college is for everybody, but there is a calling for all people, even those who may not be academically inclined. I think trade schools should be free, too.

I hate elitism towards non-intellectuals every bit as much as I hate anti-intellectualism.

[devilgrrl]

53. That's not what I was implying...

I was simply trying to draw attention to the fact that getting a college education these days isn't as easy as it was before Ronald Reagan came in and fucked things up. My apologies for not effectively articulating my point.

[El Pinko]

54. I don't have a problem with that...

But the default assumption most people make - that the people who do menial jobs and manual labor somehow "deserve" to live in squalor has always bothered me.

No matter. A lot of the mechanics and electricians that the snobs laughed at in high school are now making $80k/year, while a lot of the liberal arts majors are changing toner at Kinko's for chump change...

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

56. Eveyone benefits when one person gets well-educated

I think it's in society's best interest to see that its members receive as much education as possible. You never know where that great inventor or discoverer will come from. I think access to a quality education should be based more on academic merit than money.

[SoCalDem]

57. If the purpose of education is to end up with an educated populace,

and to have a smart workforce...ready to compete in a globalized world, education and LOTS of it should be free and accessible to ALL people.

Obviously, not everyone is capable of being a straight-A student at Princeton, BUT advanced (post 12th grade) education/training HAS to be offered to everyone.

BUT

If it's to the government's advantage (the ruling party's advantage) to have a priviledged few attaining advanced degrees, and the vast majority getting a substandard education, things will continue as the have been so far.

"Stupid", "Ignorant" people are more easily manipulated. They are also more likely to not even realize they are being manipulated.

Our government has happily relegated the "post high school" education for the masses, finanically prohibitive, and happily turned over to the right wing radio hosts.

[EFerrari]

61. You make a great point. Denying people education only hurts US. n/t

[FatherTime1408]

60. When you say "free"

Do you mean that the entire staff should volunteer? Or do you mean that the cost should be passed on to someone other than the person benefiting?

[devilgrrl]

62. When I mean "free" I mean supported with tax dollars, like in Europe.

But that would mean SOCIALISM!!!!!!!:wow::scared::hide::yoiks: