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iquiring mind Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 12:35 PM
Original message
JFK, reasons for his greatness
Many, many people and reports (books, movies, TV specials, etc.) hold JFK in such high esteem.

I am interested in learning why you feel he was one of our greatest presidents. I've asked this question within a few other threads and didn't receive many replies. Those that did reply simply said he was OK and the Greatness was hype and/or selective memories. That trying to understand why some hold him to such high esteem is like trying to understand Reagan's following.

I just now became eligible to start a new thread so hopefully, I will get a better response with better exposure.
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. He was pissing off a lot of the biggest assholes in the country.
He came in a hawk, trying to outdo Nixon with Cold War BS,
and then began to see the world and the Cold War and
Russia and the future of the planet and the role of the US
all in a new light. He had a long to go, of course, and then
there was Dallas.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I agree with the above. JFK learned and grew in his brief time in the White House.
Given time, I think he would have ended the Cold War 20 years earlier; or at least put us on that track. He came in trying to be the Harvard intellectual, but I think he became more true to his Irish roots as time went on.


One of the saddest aspects of his death is the personal one. After wasting years fooling around on the side, I think he was finally ready to commit to a monogamous relationship with Jacqueline. He finally had grown up enough to see her as a person. It's too bad they never had a chance to build on that moment.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. That's exactly right. He was going to draw down 1000 of the advisors
in Viet Nam by the end of the year and take on ending the engagement in his second term. He was making gestures toward reconciling with Castro. He found a way to communicate with Khruschev.

His Latin American program, Alliance for Progress, was on the whole very good -- the first time an American president had done anything so intelligent in that region.

He finally backed the efforts of Civil Rights leaders -- remember the Battle of Old Miss?

And the space program. He helped galvanize a generation of tech advances that were remarkable, in themselves a huge achievement.

When you run down all he did or started, it's hard to believe his tenure was so short.
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. And the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, which was REAL UNPOPULAR amongst his domestic enemies.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. That's right. I just read about that.
Had Kennedy only been a media darling, there would have been no need to murder him.
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Coincidentally, you joined on Nov 22.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Yes, I did. My family was full of Kennedy Democrats
and we've never really stopped observing that day in some way.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. He was good, for having served less than a single term,
but he was great on a few select items.
1) He stopped a nuclear war.
2) He inspired the creation of the American space exploration effort.
3) He created the Peace Corps.

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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. I personally don't feel...
... he was one of our greatest presidents.
But he could have been.

He was the right guy at the right time, a youthful man with a pretty young family, at a time when a generation of children was about to rise up. What he represented was the future, he just didn't have the time to fulfill his potential.

He started off as a hawk, but then I believe he saw what was going to happen, with the "military-industrial complex" that his predecessor warned about. He started to question it, and that's what got him killed.

His younger brother, who was also killed, really could have been the great one in the family.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
45. Yes, I agree...
RFK could have been the "greatest", he really connected with the people, the poor and disenfranchised people. IMO, if he would have lived and became President the country and the world would be a much better place to this day.
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dmosh42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. He was a "media' favorite, but having lived through his administration...
I remember he had a lot of problems getting his ideas across with Congress. He was a martyr, for sure, but not to be considered as a 'great' president. Eisenhower didn't really grasp how to use the television media, and the TV sets had become much better, and there was national news coverage every night by 1960. Kennedy made a great connection with the media, and it really helped his popularity.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. I used to work for someone who knew him
Was fairly close to him, in fact. He always praised Kennedy as the smartest man he'd ever met (and this was a very smart man). But more than that, he was a natural leader who could sway people to his side, and who could handle a crisis. The Cuban Missile Crisis, for instance. He was also a man who learned as he went along. When he began, he was lukewarm to Civil Rights, and even reportedly got upset with MLK for his busing tours, feeling that MLK was undermining him. By the end, though, he had changed his position.

Thurgood Marshall did a recorded history interview a little while before his death, and talked about Kennedy. His opinion was that Kennedy wasn't really on their side at first, but after listening and talking to the leaders of the movement, became a fierce supporter.

So I think that was a lot of it. Kennedy knew how to win people over, and he made good decisions, mostly. They got better as he went along and gained experience.

Then there's the other stuff. Kennedy brought pride to the nation through stuff like the Peace Corp and the space program. He turned the Cold War into an inspirational struggle rather than just a battle of platitudes with intense fear rhetoric. He spoke up rather than down to people, treated them as intelligent rather than stupid, and spoke as though we were all part of the same thing, rather than dividing one side against the other. He had an approval rating in the 70s before he was assassinated, and that's without a fake war and flag waving and a Hollywood-style PR campaign to boost him.

There are other reasons that aren't really his fault. His assassination shocked people, and caused an emotional bonding. His funeral, his family's grief, was played out publicly, and people felt a cathartic bonding. Plus, he died before a lot of the things he started could really affect his image. He created lofty ideals that turned into realities that were less popular, but he died before those realities came to pass. Civil Rights, Viet Nam. With Viet Nam, he told half his supporters he wanted to send more troops, and the other half he wanted to pull them out. It's easy to believe whatever you want about him, because he didn't live long enough to have to actually tip his hand.

And there's one more factor, not as widely realized. LBJ and the Democrats used Kennedy's death to push through some of what he wanted. For Civil Rights, for instance, LBJ touted it as Kennedy's unfinished work, sort of a "pass this law for the Gipper" kind of approach. There are recordings from the LBJ White House at the LBJ library here in Austin that reveal LBJ and MLK discussing how to use Kennedy's death to accomplish their own goals, and plotting out strategies for gaining favorable television coverage. LBJ's role in our history is really under-appreciated. LBJ promoted Kennedy's reputation in some ways to achieve what he himself wanted. That made Kennedy's memory stronger.

I've always thought of Kennedy as an unfinished president. What he showed us was promising, but he never got to achieve that promise. In some ways, he died before he could fail and create a negative image to go along with his positive one.

He's an interesting figure. He's seen by some liberals as a real champion of liberal issues, but he was a real pragmatist as a politician. He compromised on votes to stay in office, took cowardly positions on important issues. As a senator, he was closely linked to McCarthy because McCarthy had been close to his father. When the senate voted to censure McCarthy, Kennedy was in the hospital. He extended his stay so he could avoid the vote, since either vote would have damaged him somewhat. He was exactly the type of politician that DUers scream about. He ran against Nixon to the right of Nixon on some issues, even. Yet once in office, he moved decisively to the left. He still compromised and played both sides--with Viet Nam, for instance--but his general direction seems clear.

Anyway, my thoughts and observations as a person too young to remember him, but still fascinated by him.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. The Washington Post had a good article on this Sunday.
Here is how it concluded, and I think this says it well:

Kennedy derived his capacity for independent judgment from his own prior experience, both in and out of the White House. As the commander of PT-109, a patrol boat in the Pacific during World War II, he had learned to be mistrustful of abstract military theorizing. The Bay of Pigs fiasco of April 1961 had taught him to be skeptical of the assurances of the spymasters and the military brass.

Kennedy viewed history not as a propaganda argument to justify his decisions but as a cautionary tale. Earlier in 1962, he had read "The Guns of August," Barbara Tuchman's now-classic history of the way Europe blundered into World War I. He was so taken by the book that he asked all his aides to read it and had it distributed to every U.S. military base worldwide. The passage that impressed him most was a scene in which a German statesman asks why the war broke out and receives the reply, "If only one knew." Kennedy was determined that no survivor of a nuclear war would ever ask another, "How did it all happen?" only to be told, "If only one knew."

Had someone else been president in October 1962, the outcome might have been very different. We can only hope that the two men now vying for Kennedy's old job have absorbed the most important lesson of the Cuban missile crisis: that the choice between war and peace sometimes comes down to the decisions and judgment of a single, very lonely individual.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/20/AR2008062002595.html
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. What interests you about what "we" presumably feel about JFK?
;)
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iquiring mind Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I figured people here could enlighten me to the positives and correct the negatives I've found
First, I would like to thank Jobycom for responding with a thorough reasoning of his view on JFK. He brought up many points both positive and negative showing no bias but a sincere viewpoint. Most respondents simply talk of what might have been, his vision, his youthful looks but wrote very little on his accomplishments or detailed issues.

I did some very rudimentary research this weekend and came across a lot of negative information. I figured I must be missing something. This man is held in such high esteem! There must be some great things he accomplished. I figured this place must be full of people who are aware of, and could articulate, his accomplishments that warrant his stature.

Below are links to information that I found this weekend. Please, feel free to correct, corroborate, or add to any of the information I found. Looking to understand.

Read links 1,2 & 3 for information on Kennedy’s role in the Cuban Missile Crisis
1 http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/
2 http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/moment.htm
3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
Read links 4 & 5 for information on Kennedy’s role in the Bay of Pigs
http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/baypigs/pigs2.htm
4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion
5 http://americanhistory.about.com/od/johnfkennedy/p/pkennedy.htm

Read links 6 & 7 for information on Kennedy’s role in Viet Nam
6 http://www.vietnamwar.com/johnkennedyrole.htm
7 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy#Foreign_policy

Read link 8 for a quick summary of JFK’s foreign policy. Surprisingly it includes a link to Iraq and the Baath party, including Saddam Hussein.
8 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy#Presidency_.281961.E2.80.931963.29
His Domestic Policy information can be found on links 8, 9, 10 & 11
In link 8 above, under Domestic Policy-Civil Rights, Kennedy shows more concern for politics than for Civil Rights. Many Civil Rights leaders even view Kennedy as unsupportive. In fact, the FBI’s investigation of MLK Jr. was largely superficial until 1962.
9 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr. under King and the FBI.
10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy (looking under “Early Political Career” I was surprised when I read the 4th paragraph)
11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964 (I was again surprised to read the 1st paragraph, 3rd sentence, under “Political Repercussions”)
The above two links suggest JFK’s support for Civil Rights legislation was lukewarm, though his Executive Orders clearly show a strong support.

NOTE: Though JFK may have initially proposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it clearly would not have passed without the aggressive politics of Lyndon.
Of interest: Al Gore Sr., J. William Fulbright and Robert Byrd all voted against.

The only uncontested successes of JFK that I could find was the Revenue Act of 1964, his establishment of the Peace Corp and the Alliance for Progress. However, the Alliance for Progress was not an Earth shattering, ground breaking idea. It was essentially an extension of Eisenhower’s and Truman’s policies. The difference was instead of Europe or the Middle East, JFK focused on Latin America.

A comparison of the Kennedy Tax Cut (Revenue Act of 1964) is enlightening: http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/323.html

Amazingly, 69% of people say his Presidency was Great or Near Great!?! Believing in the image rather than facts! Please help me to better understand.
http://americanhistory.about.com/gi/pages/poll.htm?linkback=http%3A%2F%2Famericanhistory.about.com%2Flibrary%2Ffastfacts%2Fblffpres35.htm&poll_id=6556376022&poll=4&submit1=Submit+Vote


A very good official military summary on Kennedy’s PT-109 incident: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-11.htm
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I'm sure other forums could correct the positives for you.
;-)
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. yup n/t
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Looks like you pegged him right.
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 02:27 PM by A-Schwarzenegger
I thought he was serious but "iquiring" is just another J.O.
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iquiring mind Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Small minded people immediately revert to name calling
Read the responses I received from jobycom and damntexdem. Their responses are very close to my personal opinion of JFK. I don't think he was a horrible President but nor do I think he warrants the adulation he receives from kool-aide drinkers.

If you bother to read the links I provided you would know that I looked into many different events of his Presidency from what I believe to be a non-biased source. I know Wiki may not be the National Archives but it's not a bad place to do a quick read.

Of all the responses you and Butworm (how appropriate) have given the absolute least feedback and have shown yourselves incapable of discussion/debate. One should be wary of kool-aide drinkers on both sides (all sides) of the political spectrum!
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Enjoy your stay!
:*
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. What a dead giveway.
:eyes:
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iquiring mind Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Egg on my face
Guess it's time to get new glasses. I honestly miss read Burtworm's name. When I read it on the actual post (with larger print) instead of the post "list" I noticed my error. I thought it an unusual name to call ones' self.

My bad.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. And I thought your name was inquiring mind
Which I always take to be some sort of right-wing codeword. My apologies.

:patriot:
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. it's BurtWorm, not Butworm n/t
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Thank you, Skittles.
Kick that ass! :yourock:
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. I, and my family, loved JFK.
He was a Catholic, like us; and he was a Democrat, like us.

He was not a very effective president. He got very little passed; and some things that it is assumed he must have supported, e.g., civil rights, voting rights, he may not have -- and in any case, did not get passed. He was excellent during the Cuban Missle Crisis; but that is in the context of being a cold warrior from the start: the amazing thing was that we didn't all get blown up.

He was not a very popular president. His New Frontier went nowhere, other than into space. In fact, his popularity, and fond memories, are mostly due to his assassination. Yes, we who loved him were crushed by his assassination; but many of the large numbers who didn't care for him, and even some who hated him, came to hold him in reverence once he was dead. It seems ironic; but for one likely explanation, read G. Bernard Shaw's "Joan of Arc."

As for the accomplishments of the era, they were mostly due to "outside agitators" (i.e., civil rights activists who pushed Washington, and state capitols, on change) and to LBJ and his Great Society. For example, Medicare, Medicaid, and the Older Americans Act all passed within about a month of each other in the summer of 1965. The Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act likewise passed that year. Many other legislative initiatives occurred in that short period before Johnson escalated the Viet Nam War. In fact, Johnson benefitted from a massive landslide re-election in the 1964 election that also gave him overwhelming majorities in Congress, and combined with his legislative savvy and senatorial connections, allowed him the major legislative reforms of the Great Society.

In signing the Voting Rights Act, Johnson is supposed to have said that he was signing away the South for the Democrats. In the more-immediate politics, however, it was his obsession with Viet Nam that brought down the overwhelmingly-Democratic politics of the country. He famously claimed that the country could have both "guns and butter," but by 1966 and 1967 it was clear that he had turned his back on the Great Society in favor of the Cold War proxie fight in Vietnam. I, and many others, saw this as his great betrayal of the liberal consensus; and by 1968 LBJ not only didn't run for another term, Richard Nixon managed to get elected president. So, for a great many of us, LBJ went from great reformer to betraying warmonger, followed by the horrible Nixon years. I think that some of the earlier Johnson glow then tended to get attached to JFK. The real irony there is that JFK, had he lived, likely never would have achieved the great reforms that occurred under Johnson but might well have been just as hawkish on Vietnam.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Wow. If you "loved" Kennedy, you would be pleased to find out
the course of his position on civil rights and voting rights and ditto for the course of his position on Viet Nam because you seem not to know where he wound up on either.

If we were not blown up during the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was no thanks to the Pentagon who wanted to go to war or to the CIA who dropped men into Cuba BEHIND KENNEDY'S back, lol, while he was negotiating with Khruschev. It was strictly due to Kennedy's refusal to follow their insanity that we "didn't get blown up".

And The New Frontier spurred not only the space program but all the tech that came out of that and that was used domestically.

The world didn't stop on 11.22.63 because Kennedy was unpopular.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. Kennedy was a far shrewder tactician than LBJ who
benefited from having been a southerner in the semi-racist Democratic party and a former Senate Majority leader who knew how to twist arms to get things done. However his bare-knuckle tactics may have sharpened the racial polarization that would resurrect Nixon and birth the Southern Strategy.

As for Kennedy being a hawk the historical record suggests the opposite:

Papers reveal JFK efforts on Vietnam

By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff | June 6, 2005
A lengthy February memo from the Soviet politburo reported on the Galbraith-Rapacki discussions. It concluded that Kennedy and ''part of the administration . . . did not want Vietnam to turn into a second Korea" and appeared interested in a diplomatic settlement akin to one reached in 1962 about Laos, Vietnam's neighbor.

''It is apparent that Kennedy is not opposed to finding a compromise regarding South Vietnam," the memo said, according to Gnoinska's translation. ''It seems that the Americans have arrived at the conclusion that the continued intervention in Vietnam does not promise victory and have decided to somehow untangle themselves from the difficult situation they find themselves in over there."

It went on to say that ''neutralizing" the crises ''could untangle the dangerous knot of international tensions in Southeast Asia."
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/06/papers_reveal_jfk_efforts_on_vietnam/
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
21. JFK became a mythic "hero" because he was assassinated in broad daylight
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 02:59 PM by SoCalDem
with his beautiful wife at his side... BEFORE he could deliver on OUR hopes & dreams.

He was our first "young" president. He was the one we pinned all our futures on...and when he was murdered, our futures went with him.

He was our first "real" television president, and we all felt as if his family was OUR family.

Had he played out his full term, and been re-elected, who knows how many ways he would have disappointed us. Perhaps HE would have been the one we all hated, if he had not ended the Viet Nam war? We'll never know, because he never lived long enough.

Media was protective of private lives of public people back then, so we might never have known of his womanizing, or of his other quirks..and times were different too.. Maybe we would not have even cared back then.

We saw his blood on her dress, and saw those two darling children, and we saw the cynical way the investigation was handled, and a whole generation tuned out, turned off, and dropped out of politics...until we did it again...for his brother...and we all know what happened there too..

And that's how the republicans took control for nearly three decades..

It's why so many were reluctant to embrace Obama, this time..

Sometimes it just hurts too much to care.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. People who say things like that puzzle me.
Because we can know what he had planned for Viet Nam. There is a memo where he laid out his immediate plans and they were to draw down a third of the advisers we had there by the end of the year. I'd have to rifle through the biography I just read, but the information is there for people who look for it. The generals and CIA were FURIOUS with him.

It is true that via television JFK was brought close to us. But both things happened, not one or the other, imho.

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. memos & plans often are altered by events
and the fact that we will never KNOW, is another piece of the puzzle.

We think he would have done the right thing, and he may well have, but many presidencies have been sidetracked or derailed by events that just come along at the "wrong" time..

Grieving over what might have been, is natural though.. ask any woman who has miscarried a much-wanted baby.. To everyone else it was "just a blob of cells", but to her, it was a future football team captain, a bride in a wedding gown, a child who would have had children of his/her own..

We project our own needs & desires onto others, and when they are not allowed to play out, we grieve the impossibility and the loss of what could have been
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Memos and plans need to be altered by events but there's no reason
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 03:25 PM by sfexpat2000
to believe that Kennedy would have suddenly reversed himself and engaged in a land war in Asia that he clearly did not want to wage.

That was the tension in his White House. He was a man of intellect AND thoughtful action among a bunch of Cold Warriors looking to make a buck. And they fought him every step of the way -- even to the point where they nearly let Old Mis be overrun during those riots just to show him how little cooperation he had from them.

The sentimental argument falls apart right there. I'm recounting the facts that we know, not the imagined future "derailment" that you are postulating. If anything, the projection is going very much in the other direction.
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. For anybody interested in a detailed discussion of the NSAM in question...
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iquiring mind Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. JFK and the Viet Nam War
Below are two links I found which describes the actions taken by JFK.
http://www.vietnamwar.com/johnkennedyrole.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy#Foreign_policy

If these are inaccurate please let me know. I'll take anything with either a biased or non-biased viewpoint. As long as the bias is noted and the facts are the facts.

If the facts can be agreed upon, anything can be discussed with civility. Disagreements may remain, but "if you and I always agree, one of us is not necessary."
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. The first link is outright wrong.
He told his close advisers that he was waiting for his second term to resolve (i.e., get out of) Viet Nam. Your second link corrects that and gives you sources.

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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. He was born to wealth and privilege, but understood the needs of the working man.
He flunked his WWII military physical, but used his family's power to get in to the service, rather than out of it (like some rich asshole Prez I could name...)

He served bravely and with distinction during the PT109 crisis, showing real leadership.

He proudly and candidly declared himself to be a liberal, and explained why liberalism was important to America.

He inspired a nation to serve, rather than sit back and be served.

His death destroyed his potential for true greatness, and also the possibility of disappointing us with mediocre leadership.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. Like most presidents, he was driven by events that changed the nation.
Kennedy, himself, didn't do much. But, the Civil Rights movement had awakened a large segment of the populace that change was needed.

The unfolding catastrophe in Vietnam was proving that blind "patriotism" in the guise of "anti-communism" was lousy foreign policy and the way America was pursuing it was as murderous as what we were supposedly fighting.

The anti-war movement took it's lead from the Civil Rights movement after Kennedy's death.

America was losing it's well-applied varnish and being exposed for what it was/is: Just another aggressive, racist, neo-colonialist, regime that paid lip service to the ideals it was founded on.

Kennedy became an icon because, as a politician, he was perceived as an agent of change. After he died it was possible to make assumptions on what he might have done.



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Well, there is material that shows he wasn't going along
with the Cold War agenda and we know where that got him.

To dismiss him as a projection screen is a mistake.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
33. He inspired us & actively pointed toward the future, & that's a lot. Those who tear down his memory
... should be asked what they are trying to accomplish. Historical accuracy is one thing -- and I applaud that. But trying to understand why he was so popular shouldn't become an exercise in diminishing the man to nothing.

He was popular because he seized our imaginations.
Because he projected youthful vigor (despite what we later learned was a lifetime of pain) to a nation that had just lived through some pretty hard times.
Because he was not only intelligent but witty -- and quickness of wit draws people in.
Because he didn't dumb down his proposals, he pulled people up.
Because he not only faced down Krushchev over the Cuban Missile Crisis, he brought us the Peace Corps.

I was 13 when the Berlin Wall went up. I was 15 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I was 16 when he was gunned down.

JFK wasn't a god, and God knows he wasn't a plaster saint. But he was a helluva man, and he deserves to be remembered with fondness.

Hekate

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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Hekate, This is a beautiful post
This is the essence of the matter.
Nicely done.
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iquiring mind Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Not trying to tear him down
I've learned more details about him this past week than ever and I feel I have a better understanding of those who hold him in such high esteem.

It seems to me that he is revered more for his image (Instrument of Change & Hope, Youthful vigor, Intelligence, Charisma) than for his Presidential accomplishments. I enjoyed the wide range of views I received. From those who seem to be ready to defend him at all costs to those who recognize his mistakes as well as his accomplishments. And from those who evaluate him for what he actually did and those who elevate him base on what they feel he might have accomplished if his life wasn't cut short.

Although I was hoping for more feedback about my links, I did received one direct comment about the links I provided (thank you sfexpat2000, if you have links handy to the material you mentioned that showed he wasn't going along with the "Cold War agenda", could you please forward them?). Also, I received a few links for further reading. (thank you faygokid, brindis_desala, A-schwarzenegger)!

I was hoping to receive more links with information about his Presidency and/or direct feedback to the links I provided, but I at least I have an increased understanding of why some view him so highly.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
35. While you're at it, ask AfricanAmericans why so many felt such a personal loss,not being Irish & all
My high school friend Mike wept openly at the school assembly where we heard the official announcement.

Hekate
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. I know he offered some support to King when he was in jail
and iirc, that was during the 1960 campaign. And his support for the movement grew from there.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
40. He was assassinated at a young age.

He had some good qualities, yes, but being killed at a young age helped his memory.
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
44. He got Marilyn Monroe. :)
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frickaline Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
46. I'd have to go with the whole "not getting blown to bits" thing
That pretty much stands out for me with respect to JFK. Keeping cool under pressure instead of just bombing countries... you know, like Chimpy likes to do.
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