Saudi Arabia to Allow Women to Drive - With Conditions

[uppityperson]

Not sure if this has been posted, but thought it was worth doing so.
http://www.aina.org/news/20080320135642.htm

On March 17, 2008, Alarabiya.net reported that the Saudi Shura Council has recommended allowing women to drive. The recommendation follows recent efforts by Saudi women rights activists headed by Wajeha Al-Huwaidar and Fawziya Al-Uyuni. Ten days ago Al-Huwaidar marked the International Women's Day, March 8, 2008 by driving her car in Saudi Arabia appealing to the minister of interior, Prince Nayef to allow women to drive. Her driving was posted on Youtube and received international attention.(1) http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1712.htm>
(clip)
* The woman driver must be under 30.
* The woman's driving is conditional upon the permission of a relative .
* The woman driver must obtain a driver's license from the center for teaching women to drive.
* The woman driver must be modestly dressed.
* The woman driver will be permitted to drive alone in the cities, but outside the cities she must be accompanied by a relative.
* The woman driver will be permitted to drive Saturday through Wednesday between 7:00 AM and 8:00 PM.
* The woman driver must have a cell phone with her, so she can call for help in an emergency.
* The woman driver must pay a certain sum when her license is issued; this sum will be set aside for car repairs....(more@link)

[Cleita]

1. How very condescending of the ass hats.

I guess it's a start, but who is going to enforce the dress code pray tell? Must the relative write her a note? Jeez what BS nonsense. It's a good thing I wasn't born there. I would have had my head chopped off before I turned sixteen.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackDragna]

3. More proof of the fine democracy we support in the region.

If who we support in the region is an example of the kind of government we'd like to see spread, I'd be pretty nervous if I was a citizen in a country who fell out of our diplomatic favor.

[uppityperson]

5. They are NOT a democracy but a monarchy.

Only slightly removed from dessert nomadic society by the last 50 yrs of oil wealth. Not a democracy.

[Diclotican]

51. uppityperson

uppityperson

Hey, relax.. Norway are to a Monarchy. But is not ruled by the King, but by our Parlament... The Saudi-Arabian Kingdom are not even a parliamentary democracy, with a king as their head.. It is still an Dictatorship...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[uppityperson]

53. Indeed, they are not a democracy, but a monarchy, and very different from Norway.

No elected officials in their advisers, unlike Norway's Parliment, but others of the group. It will be very interesting when in the future the last of Saud's sons dies (Abdullah is mid-80's I think) and someone else becomes King. And when the money flowing in from oil slows and it turns back into a desert. Hard times ahead there.

[Diclotican]

57. uppityperson

uppityperson

True, the royal system in Saudi-Arabia are far less democratic than our Kingdom.. And in any cases, in Norway it is not the king who have the power, but Norway's Parliament. If a king step over his boundaries in Norway, he in mild cases get a slap over his fingers and been told to behave.. If he act stupid or worse, he may just loose his job, his home and his country... Pretty hard deal to be king here... But it have worked for more than 100 year now. And it looks like our royal family would be here for a long time then..

The Royal House of Saud is a chaotic one.. With no legal boundary between some sort of Parliament, and the house. In the future, when the last of the Original Saudi King are dead, it can be difficult to se, if the Kingdom would survive at all. Today, when all the sons of Saud is in the 70s and 80s.. But then with the next generation. The young princes are many, and it would not be a nice place to be, when every one of them or at least a few of them would fight to get to the throne. Is it something the in fight in arabian Royal Houses have shoved, is that it starts sudden, and are bloody.. Very blody..

I fear, that, when the last of the current like of princes are dead and buried it would mean a very different Kingdom. Maybe even a Kingdom who are far more fundamental in its teachings that today is the case.. And if everything goes, the next line of princes could be very sympathetic to Osama Bin Laden and the gang there..

And as you point out. what would happened when the oil dry out, and the riches of the desert are there no more.. Saudi-Arabia have never been seen as very hospitable to foreigner in the first place. And if extremist take the rule after the current line, it would be far less hospitale against foreigner - westerners in particular than the case is today.. I doubt that the reputation the Saudi-Arabian Kingdom have against, non muslims, and woman would be so much different in 20-30 years time than it is today..

And this country want US to let build nuclear reactors. When they are doing their best to start a war with Iran, over the same issues.. The Saudi-Arabian extremist ar FAR WORSE than the Iranian extremism are.. And the Wabbit sect is far worse in their wanting of others than the shia-islamic ever would be... And in the case of Iran, most iranian want an different country, and contact with the outside world in far greater deal than the young ones in Saudi-Arabia, who in many cases are unfriendly against the outside world... If I have to say it, i would guess that in a decade or two, Saudi-Arabia would be a far greater enemy of US than Iran would ever be..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english not my native language

[backscatter712]

4. Wow, they advanced from the 8th century to the 9th century.

How progressive of them...

[Oregone]

7. Do you have an alternative method of increasing their pace of progression?

One which does not reduce us to imperialistic barbarianism, of course?

[backscatter712]

8. Fresh out of ideas on that one.

Until they pull their own heads out of their asses, there's nothing to be done but avoid the place.

[Oregone]

11. And sometimes that is really the truth of the matter.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Stop buying their oil?

It was westerners who put these people in place, after all.

[Spouting Horn]

49. Saudi influence

in the Arabian Peninsula goes back hundreds of years...

Yes, we do prop up a bunch of religious fanatic thugs in the Middle East, but we did not create them.

And the Secular elements in the region are what we have been trying to destroy since March 2003 (go figure).

[Thothmes]

13. But in some cases its a progressives dream

Full ride medical care provided by the government, full ride education (at least for men) provided by the government, very low cost housing provided to all citizens that need it at government expense.

[JerseygirlCT]

29. IF you're a citizen. If you're a "guestworker", you would know

all about extreme poverty and indentured servitude.

[Thothmes]

40. Sort like Hispanics that come to this country

[JerseygirlCT]

42. I hate to say it, but probably worse.

worse. We're talking dire poverty. Living in cardboard boxes on the side of the road poverty.

But yeah, the same sort of indentured servitude: you want a job? you want to stay? Then you'll work for whatever I want to pay you! sort of thing.

[uppityperson]

44. Used to be you couldn't get an exit visa except through your employer.

Not sure if that is true now, but it used to be. They'd get you there and you couldn't leave until they let you.

[JerseygirlCT]

46. Yeah, I'd heard that, too.

Truly, it's a despicable regime.

I remember reading about the young boys they'd bring in under those conditions - to race camels. And if they were hurt, well, no more job, so sorry, on your own kid.

[uppityperson]

47. Search shows me good chance of that.

http://www.learn4good.com/travel/saudi_arabia_visa.htm
Women considering relocating to Saudi Arabia should be keenly aware that women and children residing in Saudi Arabia as members of a Saudi household (including adult women married to Saudi men, adult women who are the unmarried daughters of Saudi fathers, and boys under the age of 21 who are the sons of Saudi fathers) are considered household property and require the permission of the Saudi male head of their household to leave the country. Married women require the permission of their husband to depart the country, while unmarried women and children require the permission of their father or male guardian. Mothers may not be able to obtain permission for the departure of minor children without the father’s agreement.

Entering Saudi Arabia on visitor visas normally do not need an exit permit but may be prevented from departing the country if they are involved in a legal dispute. If involved in labor disputes or employment dismissal will not be granted an exit permit prior to court resolution or abandonment of the case by the you. Saudi sponsors have substantial leverage in the negotiations and may block departure or bar future employment in the country.
(clip)
Residents in Saudi Arabia who are departing the country must obtain an exit permit prior to leaving and an exit/reentry permit if they intend to return to Saudi Arabia. The Saudi sponsor’s approval is required for exit permits.
---------------

And a story about it: http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/may/31bsp.htm

[uppityperson]

48. Since the Saudi sponsor holds the employee's passport and controls the issuance of exit permits...

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1012.html
BUSINESS CONTRACTS: The written Arabic text of a contract governs employment and business arrangements under Saudi law. Before signing a contract, American companies should obtain an independent translation to ensure a full understanding of the contract's terms, limits, and agreements. No American should come to work in Saudi Arabia or make a business arrangement without having seen and understood the full written contract. Verbal assurances or side letters are not binding under Saudi law. In the event of any contract dispute, the Saudi authorities refer to the contract. Since the Saudi sponsor holds the employee's passport and controls the issuance of exit permits, Americans cannot simply leave Saudi Arabia in the event of a labor or business dispute. An American who wishes to break an employment or business contract may have to pay substantial penalties before being allowed to leave Saudi Arabia . To change employers in Saudi Arabia requires the permission of the previous employer, which is discretionary. Saudi courts take seriously their responsibility to adjudicate disputes. This process, which is performed in accordance with Saudi law and customs, may require the hiring of legal counsel, should not be entered into without an Arabic translator, and can take several months. The U.S. Embassy and U.S. Consulates General cannot adjudicate labor or business disputes or provide translation services. U.S. consular officers can provide lists of local attorneys to help U.S. citizens settle business disputes, but ultimate responsibility for the resolution of disputes through the Saudi legal system lies with the parties involved.

[Spouting Horn]

50. "Education" in Saudi Arabia

is usually nothing more than memorizing the Koran and other types of "Islamic Studies."

Virtually every type of skilled professional worker is imported.

Literacy rates are very low, even among men.

[uppityperson]

52. Face saving measures. If you do physical labor, or work, you are under someone else.

And you can't be under someone else or you lose face. There is a class of young adults who have been educated foreignly, and now have returned, but their class status in society is uncertain. Not Western, not Saudi tribe.

[Mind_your_head]

6. ah....women are sooooooooooooo precious in Saudi Arabia......

.....THAT's why they are treated this way.

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

16. You mean protected? 1 problem has been if there is an accident, no one could help.

Since unrelated men can't interact with women on a casual basis like helping someone in an accident. They could help another man, but would have to let the woman bleed to death. Not saying I agree, but the rigidity of the culture which worked better during nomadic desert dwelling times needs changing.

I'm glad they are doing this and proud of the Saudi women activists.

[ccharles000]

9. ...

What a bunch of backward fucks.

[hokies4ever]

12. Just remember

that they probably think that they're bending over backwards and making concessions here. As long as we're begging them to produce more oil, our government won't stand up to their misogynistic laws.

[hokies4ever]

10. As long as we're dependent on foreign oil, we'll be forced to condone their mysogynistic laws

Time to invest in alternative energy so that we don't have to worry about our national bank account before condemning other nations' on their civil rights.

[ensho]

14. this is a big step. congratulations to the Saudi women rights activists

and ladies 'start your engines'

[uppityperson]

15. Indeed it is a big step and I'm glad they have done it.

In many ways Saudi culture reminds me of Japanese, with family being top priority. I know there are many differences, but a rigid structure is similar. They have been dragged out of nomadic tribal society into where they are now, and I am glad that they are evolving more.

Good for the women. The age thing I find interesting. Perhaps they figure older women don't need to get out as they have kids who can go for them? It seems that they would be more tolerant of having older women in public, than those younger "hussies", but I really don't know.

[dropkickpa]

26. I have a feeling that age limit will start to increase

As driver's age. Kudo's to the women who worked to get this!

[Lyric]

18. Well it's not much, but it's better than what they had before.

Even baby steps are progress. My heart is with our sisters in Saudi Arabia today. For them, this is a major milestone. It will hopefully prove that allowing women more freedom isn't destructive to Saudi society...and it's something to build on in the future.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. Chattel

That's all women are to these pigs. So they'll allow their property to have a meager bit of personal freedom - if they follow all the rules.

I can't even put into words how much I cannot stand this Saudi culture and regime. Disgusting. I'd love to see each and every one of those jerks forced to live the rest of their lives under the conditions they enforce for their women.

[ensho]

20. and these brave men hide behind all that drapery

wear it like some kind of shield.

[JerseygirlCT]

27. Well, the clothing has understandable origins

if you spent your days in the desert under a very, very hot sun, you'd cover up head to toe in light-colored, loose-fitting clothing.

It's always been interesting to me that the *women* in many of these gulf cultures are expected to wear black. Which is quite uncomfortable in the heat.

The problem is that they truly consider their women their women. Their property, not equal human beings. Men can't control themselves or behave in public? Must be the women's fault - cover them up and keep them locked in the house.

It's disgusting, it really is.

[riderinthestorm]

45. There are lots of cultures with hot and even desert cultures where no clothing is the norm

I don't think it's accurate to say that covering up is something that is universal in hot or even desert conditions - many cultures all over the planet endure that climate and nobody covers at all.

It's pretty obviously a religious thing. I was part of an interesting conversation between Muslim women who covered and those that didn't. Historically, before Muhammed, the women went topless according to one of the participants - a legal expert who's a prominent advocate for women's rights in the ME. She'd really done her homework on the clothing issues since women are subject to some pretty horrendous laws regarding clothing in the ME.

I'm a farmer and work extensively in temps as high as 110 degrees wearing both shorts and a tank, and long sleeves and long pants. I can tell you there is absolutely no truth that covering up is somehow cooler. Having air flow constantly over the skin, evaporating sweat, is hand's down more comfortable. I wear a hat every minute I'm outside and my head roasts but I do appreciate the shade on the rest of my face. I stop often, take it off and drench hat and head in water when it gets too hot for instant relief. I can't imagine wearing the kinds of clothing the ME enforces in that kind of heat - just terrible, and not being able to take off a hot head-covering??!! (shudder).

[JerseygirlCT]

55. Well

if you've got no need of protection from sudden sandstorms, then perhaps going around unclothed makes sense. Although light colored clothing helps repel the sun's heat. And in a sand storm, having something over your skin is a good thing!

[Catherine Vincent]

21. Small steps is better than none I guess.

I don't like how they treat their women but it's a start. They can't go from one extreme to another (in their eyes), if they did, it would never happen.

[Beacool]

22. Note to self,

never EVER move to Saudi Arabia......

:scared:

[uppityperson]

23. You probably couldn't unless you had a job contract.

They are pretty strict about what foreigners are in their country, though a whole lot are to work. I think foreign women can drive if part of work.

[Beacool]

25. I went to boarding school in Argentina.

I've lived in several countries and went to high school in Buenos Aires. Well, I was friends with the daughter of the then Argentine ambassador to Saudi Arabia who also attended that school. I remember how much she hated visiting her father over there because of the way they treated all women. Even women in the diplomatic corps were not allowed to drive, there were no movie theaters and no alcohol.

[JerseygirlCT]

28. Yeah, you wouldn't want to

I spent a scary couple of hours on a layover there once. Had passports taken from us and bags searched (we were just supposed to switch planes). Thankfully a nice Korean businessman helped us get our stuff back and on our way. But that small stop in SA was enough for a lifetime, thanks.

[Beacool]

30. Wow!!

I'm glad all was well in the end. I travel a lot, but have avoided that part of the world. As a woman I would feel very uncomfortable over there and being outspoken and a rebel, I would probably get in trouble too.

[JerseygirlCT]

31. It got really hairy when they went through everything in my

carry-on bag, including underwear, and then passed over my sister's. Which had the big bottle of Irish Mist for my father's Christmas present! Phew!

Even in Bahrain, which is far more relaxed than Saudi Arabia, I felt uncomfortable out and around. While many of the people we met were lovely, I still couldn't venture to the suq without my (younger) brothers to go with me. And uncovered arms were seen as an invitation of sorts. Which made my blood boil, truly.

The history was interesting, the people had to be seen mostly from a distance, the Gulf water was this gorgeous green-blue, the climate felt marvelous to me in January, but the poverty of the Shia population, and especially of the Asians there to do menial work (mainly Pakistanis) was heartbreaking. Interesting to have visited, but I'm not eager to re-visit!

[Beacool]

32. Yeah, it sounds that one visit was more than enough!!

The only Muslim countries I'm interested in visiting are Egypt and Turkey. I haven't gone to either yet and would love to see both of them. Besides, I love Middle Eastern food.

[JerseygirlCT]

33. A friend just returned from Afghanistan - I'm dying to hear

her stories!

[Beacool]

34. Well, I wouldn't call Afghanistan

the best place to visit right now either. LOL!!

[JerseygirlCT]

36. I was worried for her, but she's back safe and sound

I just didn't have time to get all the details yet!

[Beacool]

37. Why did she go there in the first place?

It seems and odd choice.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. She's a teacher

and said teaching the kids there - particularly the young women who've been so horribly denied an education, was wonderful. They were all so eager to learn, such focused students. Sounds like there will be some good stories. But she said it was a terrific trip!

[Beacool]

54. Oh, that explains it.

She went for a good cause. I'm sure that she'll have great stories to tell you.

[uppityperson]

39. What were you doing, where flying for a layover there?

Seems an odd place to layover and I agree that the fundamentalismness would be scary.

[JerseygirlCT]

43. On the way to Bahrain to stay with my family

They were living there; I was in college. At the time, you could either switch flights in the UK, or fly in one shot to SA, then take a very short flight over to Bahrain. Like 15 minutes short. The second time I went, we opted for that, as getting through the airport in the UK the year before had been pretty tough.

It was scary. Thank goodness for that very nice businessman who knew his way around the system!

[margotb822]

24. Meixed feelings

I'm glad that they're taking steps forward, but it's still so oppressive. I seriously doubt that women will ever acheive anything close to equality in that country.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Apartheid. n/t

[Postman]

41. They forgot the "The woman driver must have dinner prepared and house cleaned before driving"

also "must have a GPS due to uncanny feminine ability to "get lost" driving back from the local grocery....

[trusty elf]

56. It's about time for a conservative backlash!

This is going way too far! What's next ? ! ?


At the Department of Motor Vehicles getting their pictures taken for their licenses




Saud and Fraud

[Geek_Girl]

58. I hope women's Right activist continue to Push for equal rights

I admire these women who are brave enough to stand up to such an oppressive government and it's great that they're using the internet to gain support and educate the global public about what goes on over there. If it wasn't for the internet I wonder if this woman would still be alive.