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Can we finally put “Trust Me” economics behind us?

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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-13-08 11:48 PM
Original message
Can we finally put “Trust Me” economics behind us?
When FDR took over during the Depression, he embraced the relatively new economic theories of a guy named Keynes which came to be known as Keynesian Economics. He used Keynesian Economics to bring us out of the Depression and usher in a new period of Prosperity.

Although I am not an expert of Economics (frankly, most Economists will admit no one is an expert - see Chaos Theory), I think I understand the fundamentals. What I know is - it works.

As I understand it, Keynesian economics says that the Consumer is the basis of any economic system. I figured that much out on my own before I ever learned anything about Econ. It’s common sense! It doesn’t matter how great your product is, if no one can afford to buy it - you’re going broke. If no one wants to but it, you’re going broke (although this gets more into Marketing…).

So, bottom line, the more money the Consumer has to buy products, the more products they will buy. The more products they buy, the more products that companies sell, and the more money the seller (companies) make. The Consumer is the key.

However, Keynesian Econ takes into account that Sellers (companies) tend to be greedy., and the Market tends to be very unstable. Unscrupulous sellers will sell products along with great promises - promises that the product cannot fulfill. However, by the time that is discovered that the product is “bad”, the seller has already made a huge profit and retired. This has happened repeatedly in American history, as evidenced by the terms “snake oil salesman” and “fly by night operation” . These are the result of a Caveat Emptor or “Let the Buyer Beware” policy towards the Free Market. AKA a Laissez-Faire government policy which Libertarian and many Republican politicians advocate. This is also the policy that the USA originally adopted for many, many years. - until so many people were abused by the system that public outcry called for different policies. At which point the US government adopted a Caveat Vendor (“Let the Seller Beware”) policy. In a nutshell, if you sell something and you lie about it, you can be sued by the individual and punished by Government Law.

In other words, sellers have to tell the truth About their products or face consequences. I still can’t understand why some people think this is a bad thing. Except that maybe it’s not explained to them properly.

So, Keynesian Economics says that the Consumer is the base of any Free Market economic system (a “bottom-up” approach). It also says that although Government shouldn’t “control” companies (as in a Marxist system), large companies are at an advantage over individual buyers and should at least be forced to tell the truth - in a Caveat Vendor policy.

There is another aspect to Keynesian Economics. Although many companies may advertise that “government intervention is bad” because they could make more money if they didn’t have to be forced to follow the rules - in times of Recession, the Government can use it’s influence and power to stimulate Consumer buying power. By increasing Consumer buying power, Consumers buy more, which means that companies sell more, and the economy improves. Thus, in Keynesian Economics the government and private businesses have a symbiotic relationship - whether the private businesses wish to acknowledge it or not.

On the other hand, there is the Austrian School of Economics. This school of thought takes advantage of Chaos Theory. Since no one knows everything about economics, no one can construct a “workable” model of economics. Further, previous economic “experiments” cannot be trusted because they were not implemented “correctly”. Therefore, you cannot trust economic models or previous experiments, but you should rely entirely on Logic.

Although they are correct to an extent that economic models are never perfect, models are based on Logic and any new Logic they may apply is also subject to the same flaws. Beyond that, the fact that they reject everything we have learned from experience simply by the dismissive statement “well, you didn’t do it right and give it a real chance” tells me they have a real disconnect with reality.

This is why I call it “Trust Me” economics - they have no real basis for their conclusions, they are simply saying “Trust me, even though it never worked before it will work this time.”

When you really start to look into the “Logic” behind Austrian School economics - it’s nothing more than a justification for Social Darwinism; if you are successful, it’s because you’re better than everyone else. If you are not successful, it’s because you’re lazy and an inferior human being.

Ayn Rand aficionados love the Austrian School - because it gives them justification for grabbing all they can get and not feeling guilty about the Poor - they are poor because they are lazy and decided to be poor. It’s their fault they are poor (evidence Ted Nugent’s recent “ironic” assessment “I drove past 15 Help Wanted signs to pick up my Welfare Check”). Of course, he never had to work 2 jobs at minimum wage to support any children and still perform all the Parental duties. It’s really easy for him to criticize, because he hasn’t walked a mile in their moccasins.

More importantly, we have tried using Austrian School economics under several different names. They Administration had to use different names because it failed so badly.

Nixon tried it. It was called “trickle-down” economics. The idea was that you stimulate and support large companies so that they are successful, and the benefits will “trickle down” to the employees. So, if the companies make more money, they will pay their employees more. “A rising tide lifts all boats”.

Who would have thought that if Stock Holders and CEO’s made more money, they would have kept it for themselves rather than share it with their employees by paying them more? Well, pretty much anyone if they stopped and thought about it.

Since “trickle-down” economics was such a huge failure, they decided to re-market it. Regan re-branded it as “Supply Side” economics. The interesting thing here is that Reagan used (and the Fed Treasury) Keynesian Economics to bring us out of Recession. Once we were out of Recession, he applied Supply Side Economics which drove us into the nasty mess that Bush the First had to deal with. Bush lost because “it’s the economy, stupid!” Clinton applied Keynesian Economics, and brought us out of Recession. We then had a Technology Bubble which drove our economy even higher - but that bubble would not have been possible if Keynesian Economics had not laid the groundwork.

Then, GW Bush took office and applied “Supply-Side” (Trust Me) economics again. And here we are.

I don’t care how smart or Logical you think you are. Every time we tried Keynesian economics, it worked. Every time we tried “Trust Me” economics, it failed - miserably.

Frankly, Keynesian economics makes more “common sense” to me. Common sense tells me that the only people “trickle-down” helps are the rich people who don’t need anymore help. But beyond that, Keynesian economics has worked, every single time. Trickle-down or Supply-Side economics failed, every single time.

Some people want to repeat the mistakes of the past, I prefer to learn from them.

“Supply-side“, “Trickle-down”, “Austrian School” - whatever you call it it’s still “Trust Me” economics. “I can’t prove it, but Trust Me: if you give me all your money it will be good for the economy!”

Yeah, right.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. Call it Republican Economics.
:kick:
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Libertarians like it, too.
Regardless of the Party, it's just Stupid economics. Been there, done that, wanted to buy the t-shirt but couldn't afford it.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yeah, call it Republican economics...How about we have some
'Trickle Up' economics??
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think Kennedy was the one who used the 'rising tide' line
the trouble with Keynesian economics was that it was war-based, it seems to me. It was only WWII that really lifted the American economy out of the depression and then with the rebuilding of Europe we had a huge market until the Vietnam war kicked into gear. When that war finally ended, the economy kinda sagged, and was hit with OPEC oil shocks. Keynes had no answer to stagflation. I think Reagan kinda ended the wage-price spiral by making the workers take it in the shorts. The cycle of wages going up, prices going up, wages going up, prices going up, was stopped with the firing of the Air Traffic controllers and freezing the pay of all Federal Government workers which rippled through to the rest of the employment sector.

When you say the Supply side economics failed or that Keynesian economics worked that is wrong - it is too simple. Economists, if they are honest, will look at winners and losers. Supply side economics clearly did work - for the CEOs and the upper class. In much the same way, Keynesian economics did not work, for the upper classes, not nearly as well as supply-side. They will not be motivated to change unless the canaille start warming up the guillotines.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I think you may want to look at history a little closer.
we started coming out of the Depression long before WWII. As far as the origination of the "rising tide" quote - it doesn't matter where it originated, what matters is whether it is relevent or not. If a boat is leaking and sinking, it will not rise but continue to sink regardless of the tide.
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Revlon10 Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's a slot machine system
I agree 100%, after reading your post twice it occurred to me, that the system works like a Vegas slot machine, just when you just about had enough, give up, and ready to walk away, the machine gives you a break and lets you win a bit, we get hope and have a bit more patience with the system. Thats the cycle.

The only one who wins, is the person who rigs the machine.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-15-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I like that analogy - rigged slots. nt
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. It can be taken further.
Businesses and the corporations should exist to serve the individual not the other way around. Here in the states, it's commonly accepted by even liberals that everything that must be done is because it's good for business or the business if you own one so things that would be considered unethical in other societies are accepted as the price of commerce. For example, it's okay for your boss to give you thirty seconds notice that he's firing you but you are expected to give him at least two weeks notice if you want to quit. Your bottom line is first and only secondary considerations should be given to environment, safety and other concerns. It's time for us to start some fundamental changes in this way of thinking.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-15-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I agree, businesses should exist to serve all individuals involved,
Edited on Sun Jun-15-08 12:39 AM by johnaries
employees and customers included. Not just the shareholders.

edit: kan't spel
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