Please, let's leave McCain's service, his time as a POW and the aftermath of it alone...

[cynatnite]

When Kerry was running the swift boat jerks came out and attacked his service. They savaged Kerry over his wounds, his medals and the performance of his duty. Never had I ever been so disgusted in all my life. As a veteran myself and the wife of a vet who'd seen combat, it was an insult of the highest order.

It was no different with Max Cleland. There were some who raked that man over the coals. He lost limbs in Vietnam.

Looking back on it now, I still feel very emotional about it. My gut twists like it did back in 2004 and I feel the anger begin building.

I'm asking everyone to stop and think for a moment before making an attempt to go after McCain's military record, his time as a POW, his disability and anything else that is connected to his military service. The risk of being like those who savaged John Kerry and Max Cleland is too great.

McCain wants to be bush's third term and he wants to diminish women's rights. He's flip flopped all over the place and his ties to Abramoff are there for the world to see. This gives us more than enough ammunition.

So please, DU, stop and think. We're better than this.

[and-justice-for-all]

1. The "Keating 5" thing is a good one too...nt

[sandnsea]

2. It can't be said enough

Some people are even using Ted Sampley as a source. Just makes me sick. I wouldn't use that man as a source for impeaching Bush, that's what kind of slime he is.

[Ghost in the Machine]

3. No

Although I *can* agree with not slamming his service or his time *as* a POW, the aftermath id fair game.

Comparing him to Max Cleland is disingenous at best. Max Cleland is confined to a wheel chair, and missing limbs, as you noted. However, McCain has all of his limbs, doesn't even use so much as a cane, and doesn't even have a limp, that I've noticed. Therefore it stands to reason that his disability is either mental... or a sham.

We don't *need* another mentally disturbed person in the White House, do we? If he's not mentally disabled, we don't need another fraud in the White House either, do we?

Those are the cold hard facts, and we need to deal with them. The man is either mentally disabled or a fraud. We need to find out which one it is, but neither is good for the Country.

[Emit]

8. He is disabled. He can't even lift his arms above his head.

McCain gets a 100% tax-free military disability pension:



~~

McCain spent 5 1/2 years as a prisoner of war in Hanoi. After he was released in 1973, he returned home on crutches and began a painful physical rehabilitation. He later regained flight status and commanded a Navy squadron before retiring from the service in 1981.

~~

McCain shattered his knee and broke both arms when he was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967.

In his autobiographies, McCain said that his knee still bothered him in cold weather and that he was unable to raise his hands above his shoulders.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-pension22apr22,1,6562984.story

[Ghost in the Machine]

13. He later regained flight status and commanded a Navy squadron before retiring from the service

.... in 1981.

Doesn't sound too disabled to me... I'm 90% permanent total disabled due to an accident in 2003... I'm still fighting to get my benefits started

[Emit]

22. Well, I'm no expert in military ratings

although as a vocational rehabilitation counselor who has worked with Disabled Vets through VA contracts, I know a little. He likely didn't start receiving his disability pension until after his retirement in '81, at which point he would've been given a service-connected disability rating, which may or may not be 100%, as explained below in my other post. I think anyone receiving over 30% is eligible for 100% tax free pension.

Anyway, with regard to continuing his military career, he may not have been so disabled as to be precluded from doing his job as a commander -- say, he had a lifting limit, he may not have been required to do that, for example.

All I can say is that he is disabled according to the VA's rating guide -- due to what exactly and how disabled, I don't know. I'm not sure it's the right approach to say he's a fraud in that regard. Now, as far as whether his over all health effects his ability to do the job of POTUS, I'm all for people questioning that, and I've posted on the subject before.

[pnwmom]

17. And what about all the Iraq veterans who don't get 100% benefits even

though their injuries are worse than his?

Jessica Lynch, for example, who lost control of her bladder and bowels due to spinal injuries, as well as having both legs crushed.

Why isn't it an issue that he's been voting AGAINST extending better benefits to Veterans even though he received comparatively generous benefits for his "100 %" disability?

[Emit]

20. I just posted a response to your link on that

I have read he receives a 100% tax-free military pension -- I don't think that's his disability rating -- it might be, but as I understand it, it's not. It only applies to his pension. He could receive a 100% tax-free pension on a rating that is less than 80%, for example.

More here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3409307&mesg_id=3409845

[pnwmom]

21. Thanks, Emit, I just saw that.

I still would like to know what his rating is.

[Winterblues]

44. The ONLY reason he was released was because the USA talked with it's enemy.

For McCain to say the USA should never talk with it's enemies is quite ludicrous..

[jberryhill]

11. Agreed

If McCain releases his psych records, then fine.

It's not a question of whether he served honorably, but his psychological condition - regardless of its origin - is a relevant objective qualification.

[JDPriestly]

14. I agree with you. McCain should release his psych records

if he wants to be president. I would not demand this normally, but the fact is that he was in a prison camp where he was tortured and abused. That is bound to have had some effect on his current mental state. Just what is it? Anxiety? Anger? No way that it had no effect.

[Ghost in the Machine]

15. Did the moon just fill with blood and fall from the sky?

Ghost & Mr. Berryhill agree on something? :jawdrop:

Just kidding with ya, buddy...

Yes, his mental/psychological condition is VERY important. Do we want someone in the White House waking up in the middle of the night, during a flashback or something, and pushing the big red button on someone?

Release the psych evaluations for sure..

PEACE!

Ghost

[jberryhill]

32. He'll be ready to answer the phone at 3 AM

...since he has to get up to pee anyway.

[Gabi Hayes]

4. thanks, but only partially because of what he underwent. the more important reason

is that the M$M will go into overdrive critcizing anyone who dares mention ANYthing negative about his service, which is a one-eighty from what they did with the Swiftliars, where they WALLOWED in the story for weeks before finally deciding that those weasels just MIGHT be exaggerating Kerry's cowardice.

the dems really need to keep educating the majority of people as to just how bad media concentration has served informed populace, but that isn't going to happen this round. they need to start years in advance, and a good time would be, if Obama wins, to go right over their heads when they start doing to him what they did to Carter as soon as he started his admin...

See Liberty Under Seige, by Walter Karp, for as good a description of how the media turned on a dime, led by Sally Quinn, and her CIA hubby.

[tammywammy]

5. Agreed

These threads about his disability are uncalled for.

There are plenty of things to attack McCain on, this is not one of them.

[Pastiche423]

12. Uncalled for?

I strenuously disagree. He gets $58K/yr in disability, yet votes against our troops getting what they deserve.

I want his disability payments to be known by every single American, but more importantly, let it be known to all of our troops!

[sampsonblk]

6. Rec - Let's stick to the issues so we can be proud of our victory.

That's where we win, big time. And its the right thing to do.

As long as we talk issues and Bush, we should win in a landslide. Slinging mud and garbage is not necessary.

[JDPriestly]

16. The unfair treatment to today's veterans is a major issue.

To the extent that McCain's pension and disability claims shed light or emphasize this injustice, they are relevant to the election and should be discussed.

[Bluebear]

7. I understand, but you please understand that some would vote for him because he was a POW

As if that earned him the Presidency. To which I can point to dozens of men imprisoned unjustly in our own country then released decades later through DNA evidence or because of shady prosecutorial practices coming to light.... I don't think that they qualify to be Presiden either just because of their incarceration.

McCain has been thanked over and over and over again for what he did. If there is some evidence of psychiatric or temperment disorder, is that reason enough to question his fitness for the office of Presidency?

Please understand the spirit in which this is written, I just don't want him lauded as a saint for his ordeal, and for people to vote for him strictly because of what he endured.

[Cronus Protagonist]

9. I intend to remind people that he's a traitor

Perhaps that won't cast such a bad light on his war career.

[AndyTiedye]

10. Besides, Swift Boating Only Works When Repiglikins' Do It

You need the full cooperation of the Mighty Slime Machine.

[pnwmom]

19. It's not Swiftboating when you tell the truth.

The Swiftboaters were lying about Kerry's record.

It isn't a lie to question McCain's votes on improving veteran's benefits in light of his own generous 100% disability.

[notesdev]

18. It cuts both ways

He shouldn't be bashed because of his disabilities, but neither should he be allowed a free pass on that account.

In terms of his mental state, it's very relevant.

Also, his more recent behavior in cutting off the search for POW/MIAs in Vietnam, and the nature of the relationships he formed there are something that ought to come under inspection. He may have been a POW himself, but he is persona non grata to many POW/MIA families.

[OneAngryDemocrat]

23. Those Who Give No Quarter...

Those Who Give No Quarter Deserve None.

www.shockedandawful.com

[tkmorris]

24. Umm, whatever

The "Swift Boat" assholes attacked Kerry on his war record, 'tis true, but for me the important thing is that THEY LIED. Those who attacked Max Cleland, LIED.

Everything they have done in their life is fair game, but the emphasis is on fair. If Kerry had done anything dishonorable in Vietnam, I would have wanted to know it. He didn't. If McCain did anything dishonorable in Vietnam, I want to know that too. Why on earth would it be ok to examine McCain's record in the Senate, but somehow unfair to discuss anything that occurred while he wore the uniform? That makes no sense.

[Eric Condon]

25. By the same token, can we finally get to the point in this campaign we we Democrats don't have to

preface EVERY criticism of McCain by reminding everyone how much we respect his service to our country? We get it. McCain is a war hero. But I don't see ANY correlation to how that supposedly makes him so much of an authority on war. I was against this war back when it was being masterminded by chickenhawk hypocrites, and just because McCain happens to be an actual veteran, it doesn't make the war any more legitimate in my eyes. The most valiant, decorated military veteran in America could defend the war to death all they wanted, and it still wouldn't change my mind about this illegal bloodbath.

Basically, my point is, McCain is a war hero, but that doesn't make me any more likely to vote for him.

[pepperbear]

26. One thing to rememember...this is the guy who balked at the GI bill

for being too generous. He went through hell, to be sure...but he was taken care of.

It would be a bad thing to dishonor his service, but this issue is fair game if he plays the POW card throughout his campaign.

[Swamp Rat]

27. McCain is a fucking traitor who crashed 5 planes and helped the VietCong. FUCK HIM!

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm

After McCain voted FOUR TIMES to withhold help for us in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina, I don't give a fuck. McCain deserves no mercy.

[leftofcool]

28. Is this one of the groups who also trashed Kerry's service?

[Swamp Rat]

31. Great American Veterans who tell the truth about traitor McCain

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_aboutvvajm.htm

The photo below was taken while I was searching for my mother after the storm, after I lost my friends, pets, home, car... He denied us aid FOUR TIMES, so now I want McCain's campaign completely destroyed.



Watch this video: http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_hopper_video.htm

[lynnertic]

35. God, Swamp Rat. I'm sorry that happened and it burns me when I think of it.

I want McCain to understand the consequences of his actions too.

[druidity33]

33. interesting site

It's particularly appalling that John McSame has single-handedly kept the American public from getting any information about POW/MIAs in Vietnam. What has he been hiding?

Did he consign other POWs to "being forgotten"? Were there any POWs left in Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia?

tough questions...

[HeeBGBz]

34. Not to mention writing off remaining POW's in Vietnam to normalize relations

Screw him.

[Ichingcarpenter]

42. Let's not attack McCain fricking threads are getting tiresome

[Smith_3]

29. He is the one who is making it a campaign issue.

Therefore I think it is very legitimate to scrutinize it.

On a side note: I also think Kerry shouldn't have made it a campaign issue. The treatment he got was unfair, but still, the ads he ran on TV about his military service were stupid. If he has something to be proud of, then it should speak for itsself. If he feels the need to boast about it, it makes people rightfully suspicious about it.

[ColbertWatcher]

30. Does the aftermath include leaving his first wife? n/t

[rox63]

36. I don't want someone with PTSD having his finger on the nuke button

even if the PTSD is a result of his military service.

[Senator]

37. Impeachment For Torture Would Be Win/Win

It would leave his personal status alone and still force him to defend his (war criminal) flip-flop on torture.

But going after his "defining strength" is necessary, however "rove-like" it seems.

It's probably the ONLY thing that can stop the Euphemedia from keeping it close enough to steal.

---

[vssmith]

38. cynatnite, you are a good person but you would never make

it as a "Karl Rove," not that is all bad

[RB TexLa]

39. Nope, you use whatever you can to destroy your opponent.

[4_TN_TITANS]

40. Oh hell no!

After the way Republicans treated John Kerry??? They've done a pretty good job of tarnishing McCain's record themselves. You won't see me wearing a purple heart band-aid (how disgusting), but any and all of McCain's military experience at least deserves due scrutinty. For the most part I'm a civil kind of guy, but good luck getting me to promise to hold back anything in the fight.

[MNDemNY]

41. Well, his piloting skills are suspect: He got shot down.

His "escape and evasion" skills are weak: He was captured.
"Hero"? or just a bad naval aviator?

[TexasObserver]

43. You're missing the point on his disability, which is a legit issue.

His drawing 100% disability is relevant while many vets cannot get such disability benefits, while many Americans cannot get disability, while he makes a fat congressional paycheck, while his wife is filthy rich, and while he votes against benefits for veterans and soldiers.

I strongly believe that this is an issue that many, many Americans will find shocking and will resent McCain because of it. Every person who has tried to get disability for themselves, a family member, or a friend will wonder why this able bodied and high paid senator is on full disability. Every soldier or member of a soldier's family facing post war problems will wonder why McCain gets benefits their soldier cannot get.

You have asked that others here not discuss this. I will ask that you and others here stop trying to censure discussion. That's what your Hide Thread feature is for and you should use it if reading about McCain's disability payments disturbs you.

[cynatnite]

45. Just like Kerry and Cleland, attacking McCain like this...is an attack on every veteran...

There is no difference. You're questioning my uncle's disability, my neighbor who has a job and draws 100% from the VA and so on. No matter what I say you'll have convinced yourselves that attacking McCain's service and his disability is justified.

For those who think this is valid...well, the swift boat jerks would welcome you to their circle because they thought they were justified, too. You're no better than them.

That's all I have to say about the subject.

[DeepModem Mom]

46. K&R. Obama himself calls McCain a hero before he criticizes him on policy. I've heard Obama...

do this many times.