Faggot, Faggot, Faggot

[Madspirit]

I just have to ask a question about Ann Coulter's recent display of bigoted bad taste.

Were you guys offended because you thought she was insulting Edwards or because you thought she was insulting gays? Her remark only came about a week after one of our very own Newbies post a thread that went much like this:

"I support your rights but thinking of you makes me want to leave upchuck spatter on the walls. Is that cool?"

We're not always welcomed with open arms into the Left, either.

Just sayin' and just askin'...and just telling it like it is.

Lee

[mzteris]

1. it's that it's Ann Coulter -

pretty much anything she says is insulting - including "have a nice day", imo....

It's the fact that she thinks calling someone "gay" is an INSULT - is what's so bad, ya know?

[Clark2008]

91. I tried to say this and was gang tackled.

I think we should just stop talking about that skank if you ask me.

[mzteris]

92. it occured to me that

any attention at all is what she craves.

There's just something wrong with a person who can be that hateful and nasty.

[Mr. Ected]

2. Her Statement Offends On EVERY Level

It's an affront to gays.

It's an affront to John Edwards.

It's an affront to decency in political discourse.

And it's hypocrisy deluxe...considering how the Repukes took Edwards and Kerry to task for even MENTIONING that Cheney's daughter was a lesbian.

[melody]

3. Both n/t

[BlooInBloo]

4. Neither. It's because she DID insult Edwards and she DID insult gay folks. Sheesh.

And it's approximately the stupidest idea in the world to think that acknowledging someone's *right* to do/say/think something precludes criticism of that which is done/said/thought.

Duh.

[TahitiNut]

45. I don't regard it as an insult to be 'accused' of being gay.

Why would Edwards? :-(

[BlooInBloo]

74. That's the difference between "faggot" and "gay". Duh.

Why someone so much as *bothers* to pretend not to appreciate the difference is beyond me.


EDIT: Alternatively, google up phrases like "boche", "circumstances of application", "consequences of application", "Dummett", and the like.

[TahitiNut]

107. Ahhh ... a cunning linguist, huh?

Well, a 'reasonable inference' isn't a necessary inference. (Ear of the beholder, and all that.)

It affords Coulter far more power than she merits, imho. While it's inarguable that "f____t" is a hateful epithet that betrays a bigotry on Coulter's part, she might as well be saying "I hate gays like Edwards!" - which, to me, is semantically equivalent. In my opinion, that's all about her - delusional and hateful. I quibble over the word 'insult' because I don't think it's warranted - even though all decent humans should probably be shamed by such hateful, delusional bigotry in their midst.

[ulysses]

5. ?

Personally, my response is disgust at Coulter's use of the term no matter at whom it was aimed. I'm curious, though, about what you think the hetero response at DU should have been.

[bicentennial_baby]

10. I would like

to have not felt the need to alert dozens of times on "Mann Coulter" posts, and some of the most vile shit I've ever seen here, just in the past 24 hours. Yes, from theoretically straight DUers. And when I say dozens, I mean it. Transphobia has no place here, or at least I thought as much.... x(

:hi:

[Cha]

No, coulter is not a man..that would

be an insult to men. coulter is asexual if anything.

[ulysses]

23. I've been guilty of that kind of thing.

dsc finally got me to understand a while back during the whole Rush Limbaugh / Jeff Christie thing. I understand the impulse to use a hypocrite's own weapons against them even though I understand now how that is hurtful to the folks in whose name some do so. I don't know what to tell you regarding the wider DU community, other than to say that, unless you've lived the life in question, there's a learning curve. Some folks may not ever understand, but I suspect most will in time.

:hi:

[bicentennial_baby]

25. I agree with that...

It's just that the last day on DU has been really disheartening. When I see someone questioning why the word "faggot" is even an insult, I lose a little hope, I guess.

:pals:

And how is the adorable Mr Christopher doing these days? :D

:hi:

[ulysses]

31. I can imagine.

I seem to have developed a pretty good sense about which threads I want to read and which I don't. :)

Chris has developed an unnerving desire (and ability) to climb on top of things and once there, to dance. I'm spending a lot of time playing Norgay to his Hillary. :eyes:

[bicentennial_baby]

33. Yeah, I need more self-control...hehe

Awwww....adorable. He's a handful, eh? A wonderful handful though :hug:

[ulysses]

36. he's really good at entertaining himself

for the most part. Hell of an imagination, especially if toy cars are involved. He's all about his Fisher Price garage (old school, with the crank elevator) right now, in fact.

[bicentennial_baby]

56. OMG! I had that!!

:wow: i totally forgot about that! Awesome!

[Madspirit]

66. I think the response

....at DU by the hetero Folks has been pretty wonderful, actually. I was just wondering, in some cases, what it was they were insulted by. Thinking someone was accusing Edward's of being gay or that "gay" was being used as an insult.

I see a lot of homophobia, sexism, etc. over here. Much more than there should be, imo. Mostly though, I see great folks of all flavors.

I am of the old school activist, late 60s/early 70s... I think that thinking about these things is important. Criticism/self-criticism and honest evaluation is necessary for change to EVER happen. Way too many leftists today get pissed at being confronted. "Hey, I smoke weed and vote Democrat. Isn't that enough?" No, it isn't.
Lee

[ulysses]

71. fair enough.

Thanks. :D

[Madspirit]

80. Hell...

I was at the very first NOW convention EVER, in Houston in the early 70s and I was stuck in an elevator with the very offensive Betty Friedan, while she complained the entire time about how lesbians were ruining everything. EVERYTHING. <g> Gee, I didn't know we had that kind of power.
So, just because someone is a leftist doesn't mean they don't have things they still need to work on.

Is your avatar your baby? That is one of the cutest, most mischievous looking babies I've ever seen. He is quite wonderful.
Lee

[frogcycle]

111. why I am doing this is beyond me, but...

ok, I am "hetero" and my response was to be aghast. At two things (aside from her mere presence on television).

First and foremost, regardless of how one tries to rationalize alternative meanings of the word, she clearly used it as a pejorative. That was appallingly offensive. Offensive anywhere, but in that context, with a national audience, and people clapping, it was just appalling. Any other pejorative aimed at any other group would have had 3/4 of the world population all a-twitter.

Secondly, I was (stupidly) surprised at the sheer nerve of the woman. If one stipulates for the moment that the word was intended as an insult, and sets aside whether that should be, the fact that she was hurling what she seemed to think was a serious insult at Edwards openly and publicly just blew me away. Of course it should not have - after all, she called the 9/11 widows "harpies." Still, it stunned me.

But what did NOT occur to me was to think Edwards should be offended at being called a homosexual. The literal meaning of the intended insult was irrelevant. It was as if she had said "he screws sheep" or "he robs banks" or something. Or "he's a son af a bitch".

None would be literal, one would not defend against them by saying "I do not" or "My mother is NOT a bitch". It's like she flipped him the finger. She was just intentionally rude.


Ok, that was my immediate reaction

Now, as to the implications of that word BEING a pejoritive - hell yes, that's bad too. If people constantly said "oh, he's such a tennesseean" about people, meaning something rude, it would get under my skin. And I guess if the world were mostly gay and gays constantly insulted people as "you're such a straight" I might take offense. And if they came up with a word for it like "honkey," and used that rather than "straight", that would be a lot worse. Unless all they meant was I have no taste in clothes - then I'd just have to accept that they had a point.

[niyad]

6. meanings of the word "faggot"--most of which do NOT refer to sexual orientation

(correct me if this is wrong, but I seem to remember that, in some areas, at least, the word "fag" also referred to cigarettes)

9 results for: faggot

faggoty
faggpting
View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | All Reference | the Web

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
fag·got1 /ˈfægət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun British. fagot.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
fag·got2 /ˈfægət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun Slang: Disparaging and Offensive. a male homosexual.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



—Related forms
fag·got·y, fag·got·ty, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
fag·ot /ˈfægət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a bundle of sticks, twigs, or branches bound together and used as fuel, a fascine, a torch, etc.
2. a bundle; bunch.
3. a bundle of pieces of iron or steel to be welded, hammered, or rolled together at high temperature.
4. bouquet garni.
–verb (used with object) 5. to bind or make into a fagot.
6. to ornament with fagoting.

Also, British, faggot.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



—Related forms
fag·ot·er, noun
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source fag·got 1 (fāg'ət) Pronunciation Key
n. & v.
Variant of fagot.


(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source fag·got 2 (fāg'ət) Pronunciation Key
n. Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a homosexual man.





(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source fag·ot also fag·got (fāg'ət) Pronunciation Key
n.
A bundle of twigs, sticks, or branches bound together.
A bundle of pieces of iron or steel to be welded or hammered into bars.

tr.v. fag·ot·ed also fag·got·ed, fag·ot·ing also fag·got·ing, fag·ots also fag·gots

To bind into a fagot; bundle.
To decorate with fagoting.





(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source
faggot (1)

1279, "bundle of twigs bound up," from O.Fr. fagot "bundle of sticks," from It. faggotto, dim. of V.L. *facus, from L. fascis "bundle of wood" (see fasces). Esp. used for burning heretics (a sense attested from 1555), so that phrase fire and faggot was used to mean "punishment of a heretic." Heretics who recanted were required to wear an embroidered figure of a faggot on their sleeve, as an emblem and reminder of what they deserved.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source
faggot (2)

"male homosexual," 1914, Amer.Eng. slang (shortened form fag is from 1921), probably from earlier contemptuous term for "woman" (1591), especially an old and unpleasant one, in reference to faggot (1) "bundle of sticks," as something awkward that has to be carried (cf. baggage). It was used in this sense in 20c. by D.H. Lawrence and James Joyce, among others. It may also be reinforced by Yiddish faygele "homosexual," lit. "little bird." It also may have roots in Brit. public school slang fag "a junior who does certain duties for a senior" (1785), with suggestions of "catamite," from fag (v.). This was also used as a verb.
"He used to fag me to blow the chapel organ for him." <"Boy's Own Paper," 1889>
Other obsolete senses of faggot were "man hired into military service simply to fill out the ranks at muster" (1700) and "vote manufactured for party purposes" (1817). The oft-heard statement that male homosexuals were called faggots in reference to their being burned at the stake is an etymological urban legend. Burning was sometimes a punishment meted out to homosexuals in Christian Europe (on the suggestion of the Biblical fate of Sodom and Gomorah), but in England, where parliament had made homosexuality a capital offense in 1533, hanging was the method prescribed. Any use of faggot in connection with public executions had long become an English historical obscurity by the time the word began to be used for "male homosexual" in 20th century American slang, whereas the contemptuous slang word for "woman" (and the other possible sources or influences listed here) was in active use.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faggot

[Lex]

7. Oh yeah, she was calling Edwards a cigarettte.

Makes sense to me. :eyes:

[niyad]

13. I know that.

[JackBeck]

8. What's your point?

[niyad]

17. just that with all the meanings of the word, she can only fixate on one truly hateful one.

and, moreover, think it is perfectly okay for her to do so.

[JackBeck]

19. Most people do when not referring to a cigarette.

Her behavior is reflective of many attitudes in American culture.

[terrya]

18. This person needs to read the current issue of The Advocate

Besides an interview with John Amaechi, the former NBA player who recently came out, there's a pretty good article about the usage of the word "faggot" and how it's insulting and hurtful to gay men.

I suspect said reading probably will happen the same time that I win the Illinois Lottery.

[Mr. Ected]

9. They Wouldn't Send Her To Rehab

If she intended to malign Edwards by calling him a bundle of twigs.

Her intent was obviously to use the term in the most deragory sense she could muster.

She is NOT an English scholar. She is, rather, the Queen of Hate.

[niyad]

20. she is going to rehab? missed that. no, I know exactly what she was saying, and it sickens me that

she thinks it is okay for her to use words in such a hateful way.

[Mr. Ected]

24. Going To Rehab Was Part of Her Comment:

"I would talk about Edwards but I've heard that you have to go into rehab if you use the word 'faggot'"

[orpupilofnature57]

12. Anything that isn't Megalomania ,Ann deems Fagot ,Kkkarl's bitch...

....not in a physical sense, just a sycophants sense.

[unblock]

28. as a technical point, "fag" (but not "faggot") refers to a cigarette

especially in england. expressions such as "i really need a fag" are met with complete understanding that you're referring to a cigarette. such a statement would obviously be met with a very different reaction in the u.s.

[terrya]

52. Well....

yes. Hell, even on "Absolutely Fabulous", which isn't anywhere near being a bastion of homophobia, Patsy or Edina will refer to "needing a fag".

But, come on. Let's eschew the nonsense of definitions from the 16th century...there really is only ONE kind of usage of the word "faggot" today.

[unblock]

77. agreed, especially in the u.s.

[jannyk]

81. Oh so Wrong! And here's the proof...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2698507.stm

See the pics of them proudly wearing their "Faggot Family of Britain" banners!

>>The Doody family from Wolverhampton has been crowned The Faggot Family in a national competition, and to kick off their reign they will launch National Faggot Week.<<

>>"The great British faggot is full of flavour and a great belly warmer at this time of year."<<

>>Fans have published the Good Faggot Guide<<

And even though I've lived in the US for over 30 years, I still call cigarettes 'fags'.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

38. Some more definitions... not quite as cute ...

fag.got n. a word which expresses irrational hatred or fear of a (usually minority) subgroup. Meant to distinguish the user from that subgroup and to inflict pain on members of that subgroup.

nig.ger n. a word which expresses irrational hatred or fear of a (usually minority) subgroup. Meant to distinguish the user from that subgroup and to inflict pain on members of that subgroup.

kike n. a word which expresses irrational hatred or fear of a (usually minority) subgroup. Meant to distinguish the user from that subgroup and to inflict pain on members of that subgroup.

mick n. a word which expresses irrational hatred or fear of a (usually minority) subgroup. Meant to distinguish the user from that subgroup and to inflict pain on members of that subgroup.

rag.head n. a word which expresses irrational hatred or fear of a (usually minority) subgroup. Meant to distinguish the user from that subgroup and to inflict pain on members of that subgroup.


The obsolete definition pulled from pedantic tomes don't ease the feelings of those who feel victimized by the users of such words. Using these words, especially on national media, lessens us a society. It also lessens the speaker, but she may be too self-absorbed to see it.

[Maven]

60. .

You're so clever.

[Cha]

11. Who's to say that "newbie" was

a "leftie"?

coulter was using a homophobic slur to insult John Edwards..however John Edwards and Elizabeth were not insulted. All she did was show what a vile convention she was in attendance.

I don't think anyone has ever accused her of being smart.

[Caution]

35. not to mention 1 of 100,000 registered users

Holding up the exception as a way to imply that DU is bigoted is just as insulting.

[brettdale]

14. she was insulting gay people

She is quite pathetic actually.

[Bicoastal]

15. You lost me....

What's your point--are you saying that some DU'ers are anti-gay themselves? Don't hold that very tiny minority against the rest of us...after all, I'm sure there are one or two FReepers who DON'T go into a full-blown homophobic rant whenever San Francisco is mentioned. But would you side with them over us?

Liberals were on the side of civil rights 40 years ago, and history has judged us 100% right for doing so. In 2040, let them say we were right about sticking up for gay rights today.

[bicentennial_baby]

22. NO, but there is a disturbing amount of

transphobia...It's been all over GD and Gd Politics for over 24 hours now...

[Bicoastal]

27. Fear of Transexual individuals?

Guess I wasn't aware. In reference to what?

[bicentennial_baby]

30. Transgender

And you don't need to look far...Countless references to "Mann Coulter", "Ann the Man", or about how she had to tuck her penis before she went on stage... It's everywhere.

[Bicoastal]

37. Oh, I see what you mean.

Well, can we at least make fun of her for being homely?

Or would the ugly people start complaining?

I kid, I kid.

[JackBeck]

40. We should disagree with people on their words and actions alone.

[Bicoastal]

46. Yeah, like that's going to happen.

I've honestly never particpitated in or paticularly liked the "Man Coulter" remarks. But I'm not prepared to abandon my sense of humor completely.

Don't censor my right to call Ann Coulter a sleazy, skinny, skanky, horse-faced old ho-bag if I so please.

[JackBeck]

50. Hey, I'd never censor anyones sexism, racism, or homophobia. Ever.

But I chose to argue over policy/ideas instead of discrediting a person based on looks, gender or sexual identity.

[Bicoastal]

57. More power to you.

And I agree, more or less....at least when it comes to serious discussions. However, serious discussions aren't the only type of political discourse in this culture.

For example, what do you think about the prevalance of the nickname "Chimpy" on DU, based on W's vaguely simian appearance?

Also, what about political cartoons?

[JackBeck]

62. I would find a discussion about Bush's appearance would be more interesting

if it were about how he may have been born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, since it is widely known that his mother drank during his pregnancy.

I enjoy political cartoons, unless they are in the NY Post. But one can also enjoy caricatures, while at them same time mete out policy. You simply stated that all you wanted to do is name-call.

[Bicoastal]

69. I don't often participate in name-calling, actually.

And That isn't "all I want to do," otherwise I wouldn't be a member of DU.

But we're not talking about, say, the likes of William F. Buckley here. We're talking about a woman who does so much puerile name-calling herself, she's practically begging for a taste of her own medicine. If I ever got the opportunity to debate her in public, I would most likely challenge her on ideological grounds. On a message board, it's a different story.

[noamnety]

84. Why post any sexist objectifications of women?

What the hell.

Why does every woman in public or private life have to be reduced, at the end of the day, to a fuckability rating?

I am sick and tired of this shit. I am sick and tired of this shit on DU. We get a post about intelligent women getting kicked out of a sorority for not meeting beauty standards (too heavy, not white enough), and some idiot feels the need to chime in to say they look like hotties to him - as if that's the point, as if that's even tangential to the point, as if women fighting for the basic human right of respect based on something other than if men want to "do" them is inconceivable, as if what we are really after is confirmation that if we gain weight or aren't lily white y'all will want to still "do" us, and hey, that's what really matters, eh?

And I am sick of people on DU dismissing women who they DISagree with by summing up their existence as "well, no loss, I wouldn't want to 'do' them anyway."

How fucking egotistical are men, (SOME men, if you ain't one of them, I'm not talking about you) that they honestly think a woman's worth comes - in some way - from their own ability to fantasize about sticking their dicks into them?

And while I am ranting, I also would like to know why all the attention is on the faggot comment, when we also have that racist bullshit AC is spewing that seems to be invisible? "Clinton was half-white, half-trash" I guess the half that isn't white is "trash"? Not to detract from the importance of fighting homophobia, cause that's EQUALLY important, but I don't understand why she's getting a pass on the other. Is white supremacy back in vogue now? (Maybe I just missed those threads?)

/surly rant

[Madspirit]

85. Right On!!

I hate everything about Ann. Her homophobia, her racism, etc. I also fight on all the racially bigoted threads, just btw.
Lee

[noamnety]

117. (just btw)

yeah, I know you do. That last part wasn't meant to be directed at anyone in particular, least of all you, it was just howl of frustration aimed at the world at large.

[JackBeck]

87. Glad to see I wasn't the only one who was grossed out by those comments.

[Bicoastal]

88. Um, HELLO?! ANN FUCKING COULTER!!!

This woman has arguably done more to reduce ideological arguments to childish name-calling than anyone in the last 6 years. And it doesn't stop with words like "scum" and "liar." She has insulted and denigrated the appearances of countless women, from the 9/11 widows to college students to anonymous strangers at the Democratic Convention. She has used language to describe women she doesn't like that I would NEVER use, even directed at her. And to top it all, she puts so much emphasis on her own appearance (emphasis on short skirts and bared flesh) that female pundits of every stripe have her to thank for automatically being sized up like pieces of meat by the opposition. Don't place in Ann in the center of an argument for sexual equality within politics--it just can't be done.

Personally, I rarely judge female politicians and politcos based on looks, but I reserve the right to attack Ann Coulter on any level she herself has stooped to--and believe me, there aren't very many that don't belong in that category.

[blonndee]

97. I find that contradictory. How could stooping to her childish level

possibly benefit us, and why would we even feel the need to do such a thing? Let the O'Liellys, Oxcontin Rushes, and other hatemongerers do that--they don't have any substance or basis for their attacks. We do.

[Bicoastal]

99. All I'm saying is...

...Ann Coulter puts me into a foul mood. She and Paris Hilton--despite the numerous oppurtunities both have disgraced themselves, the media still treat them like legitimate public figures.

Fine, you win. I won't call her names that reflect upon her appearance. In fact, I won't talk about her or even think about her at all if I can help it.

I'm getting off this thread before it ruins my Saturday night....

[blonndee]

101. There is no "winning," it's not a competition.

I was just disagreeing with you.

[Bicoastal]

103. And you're probably right.

Honestly. I don't know how I ended up defending a practice I don't even agree with.

This is why talking about Ann Coulter is a no-win situation.

[noamnety]

102. Not buying it. You own your behavior, not her.

If a black person disrespects you in some way - even if they are blatantly racist or childish, or whatever, that doesn't entitle you to call them the N word. All the heckling in the world didn't excuse Kramer's comments in that night club.

If you act in a racist way, you own it. No excuses. No "he was asking for it."

Likewise, if a woman behaves in a certain way, no matter how disagreeable or childish or hateful, that doesn't excuse a sexist response from you.

Here's the bottom line. IF you viewed women (as a class) as humans, it wouldn't occur to you to resort to gender insults when they do piss you off. That was the thing that revealed the hatred in Kramer; when provoked, his racism leaked out. You're in that position now. You have a choice. You can recognize that tendency in yourself and learn from it, or you can become an apologist for it.

[Bicoastal]

105. Actually, you're right.

Honestly. I don't know how I ended up defending a practice I don't even agree with.

This is why talking about Coulter is a no-win situation.

[noamnety]

114. Alright, that took guts

and I'll admit, most of us - including me - have been there ourselves at some point, and been called to task for making similar comments, and had to examine our own words for what we were really saying.

Here's the missing piece, though - you can still talk smack about coulter, because really what we're saying isn't "you have to think nice thoughts about her."

It's more about unlearning the way we've been taught by society to reduce women to potential sex objects. We learn to think of women primarily as sexual bodies, and men as accomplishments, and the way we allow ourselves to speak perpetuates that problem, and thus perpetuates very real things that affect women in economic ways as well. That's why it's unacceptable, because of the unintended consequences and its role in the system, not because anyone here cares especially about coulter personally being insulted.

So the good news is you can call coulter any number of things - she's a hateful ignorant woman who spews racism and sexism (personally I view homophobia as a subcategory - or maybe synonym? - of sexism, cause I don't think you can have the one without the other).

The bad news is we're asking you to reprogram yourself in a huge way so that your initial response to public statements that a woman makes is the same as it would be if you didn't even know the gender of the speaker.

[EFerrari]

16. As a brown person, I have the same question. n/t

[Oeditpus Rex]

21. So... yet another test we have to pass

in order to fit some narrow definition of "liberal," or even "not homophobic."

I'm getting really sick of this.

[hulklogan]

26. I don't think it's another test, I think it's the same test

Are people on DU going to accept homophobic and transphobic statements, even when an ignorant poster is trying to be funny? Are we going to let it slide even though it is hurtful?

Or are we going to inform and educate people who may not know better?

It's not even really a test at all, in my opinion, it is more of a guiding hand.

[Oeditpus Rex]

32. The OP isn't about the 'ignorant poster'

It presents an option: If you're mad at Coulter because you think she insulted Edwards, then you're __________. If you're mad at her because you think she insulted gays, then you're __________.

I resent being categorized, and such attempts to categorize me.

[hulklogan]

39. I guess I don't understand what you're getting at

I don't think the OP of this thread was trying to categorize you individually as much as make a point about trying to understand where the DU rage against Ann Coulter was coming from.

If you have a reason for being mad at Ann Coulter that differs from the two options presented, I'm interested in hearing it. There is always another option.

[Oeditpus Rex]

48. I don't need more reason to be mad at Coulter

She's a vile, vicious, narrow-minded, hate-filled excuse for a human. That's been enough for me for years. I don't hate her any more for what she said the other day. It simply reinforced the reasons I already had.

I just don't understand why a question is necessary that's designed, as I read it, to divide people by the way they interpreted her horrendous use of words. Does it really matter why we support gay rights?

[hulklogan]

64. I think you're reading way more into the OP than what was intended

To me, it reads like the poster is trying to make a statement about how the transphobic and homophobic attacks against Ann Coulter show that some people on DU were being insincere in their criticism of her for making such a statement, especially when their responses to her are blatantly homophobic and transphobic.

Rather than forcing you to defend yourself or categorize your own support for gay rights, I think the OP was trying to point out that there are hypocrites among us. That's all.

Thank you for supporting gay rights. :thumbsup:

[Oeditpus Rex]

76. Yeah, blonndee enlightened me

to what I was missing. See #53 and #58 below.

Sometimes I don't "get it" the first time. Thanks to everyone who discusses it calmly. :applause:

[blonndee]

41. Wow, it's all about you?

I see nothing in the OP such as what you describe.

[Oeditpus Rex]

42. It asks a question of 'you guys'

I'm one of "you guys."

If you don't see something, perhaps you're not looking for it.

[blonndee]

43. Yeah, she asked a question. How do you see that as "categorizing"? Seriously. n/t

[Oeditpus Rex]

49. Read the question

It asks us to choose between two reasons we were offended. How is that not an attempt to categorize?

[blonndee]

53. Well, I read it differently. Maybe the reasons are "categorized"

but I certainly don't interpret it the way you do, "If you think X, you're _____; If you think Y, you're _______." Instead, I see it as a way to spur DUers to think about their own belief systems and determine whether or not there exists a hierarchy of values within themselves.

[Oeditpus Rex]

58. Okay, now that you mention it

yeah — it could very well be that.

Thanks for the eye-opener. :toast:

[blonndee]

94. I have to say...

It's so nice to have a real discussion here, and disagreement that doesn't end up getting nasty. This is how I remember DU being back when I joined. Too bad there's not more of that these days. Thanks for the civility, even if we hadn't ended up agreeing somewhat. :toast:

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oeditpus Rex]

59. Oh, gee

I'm a "liar" because I don't see everything your way.

Buh-bye! :hi:

[Madspirit]

70. OK...sorry

Sorry I called you a liar. You are a mistaker. I did not say you had to choose anything. Read the OP. It's not far away. Just push "top" at bottom of any post.
Lee

[bicentennial_baby]

34. who are you?

seriously....jeebus. oversensitive much? defensive?

[Trajan]

44. There is many reasons why this commentary is wrong ....

Your attempt to oversimplify the issue into 'PC' is common .... Many use the same rationale to defend using the 'N' word ...

Yeah .. you have a right to speak what you want, and the rest of us have a right to complain, loudly, that the commentary is insulting and prejudicial ....

Ann can say what she wants, and what she says will be held against her in the public sphere ....

Do you object to OUR freedom to condemn her ?

I am somewhat surprised this thread still exists ....

Im just sayin .....

[Madspirit]

51. When I was a young leftist...

We actually thought criticism/self-criticism was an important device for CHANGE and consciousness raising. Defensiveness and denial is useless and protects the status quo.

There is nothing attractive or progressive about your complacency with your bigotry.

This thread is actually quite important, imo.
Lee

[LeftishBrit]

47. Well, it's a revolting word to use

Homophobic, and plain nasty.

On the level of using the N-word, or any insulting words based on a person's religious or ethnic group.

But then, this is coming from someone who has recommended that a judge should be poisoned, that a senator should be shot, and that there should have been a terrorist attack on the New York Times building. (And she may well have made other such friendly suggestions - these are just the ones I know about!) And who thinks Joe McCarthy was good. So maybe she really would benefit from rehab, or from a brain transplant.

[BlueStater]

55. "Faggot" is a disgusting word used to demean gay people

And, yes, Coulter was calling Edwards a homosexual. The "rehab" comment is a reference to a behind-the-scenes incident of a tv show (I forget the name) in which a cast member called another cast member who happend to be gay a "faggot" then promptly checked into rehab afterwards.

All the GOP candidates who attended the event and even Cheney himself should be forced to comment on this. In Cheney's case, if he refuses to denounce Coulter, it will show everyone what a phony and hypocrite he is about his "precious" daughter.

[dddem]

61. the word is offensive.

it promotes hate. There are other words that make me fel the same way, and I won't allow them used in my house. Lately the "n" word is supposed to be used in non-offensive ways, but it still offends me.
Of course, as others have stated, pretty much anything that comes out of that woman's(?) mouth offends me.

[Redstone]

63. dunno about the Left in general, but if you're gay, you're cool with me. Unless

you're an unpleasant person, of course. Being gay doesn't doesn't mean one damn negative thing to me at all, but doesn't buy anything with me either.

I'll judge you by how likeable you are, without any other considerations.

How's that for fair? And it's true. I really do think that way.

Redstone

[Forkboy]

65. She's just insulting to any sane person,period.

[aikoaiko]

67. :shrug:

[Madspirit]

68. I really don't think...

Coulter meant a bundle of sticks and that is only one of the definitions...<g>
Lee

[aikoaiko]

82. I'm just teasing 'cuz this topic and all its permutations have been played out.

;)

[Madspirit]

83. I knew that.

I really do have a sense of humor. <g>

I just don't think as long as there is so much denial, the topic IS played out.

Now whether the topic is getting tiresome or not...a whole other deal. <g>
Lee

[Little Wing]

72. People claiming they're 'telling it like it is' are usually the most full of shit

[Madspirit]

75. I'm not full of shit.

So glad you are so complacent about bigotry.

That thread I used as an example really did happen here and only about a week ago.

...and for saying I'm full of shit when you don't even know me...fy.
Lee

[Dastard Stepchild]

73. I'm pretty much offended by everything that comes out of her mouth...

I don't generally parse through the particulars. She meant to slur both Edwards and GLBT individuals, and did so in one idiotic swoop. However, her intent was to posit that there was no condition as heinous as being a gay man, so ultimately the offense lies squarely in that statement. She's unbearable.

[pitohui]

78. i'm offended that she exists at all

she hates everybody and everything that is decent and good, she's sort of an all-round hater, it ain't a contest

[The Straight Story]

79. Why would anyone be offended that she insulted Edwards?

:shrug: we do it here all the time, as well as to other candidates.

[slowry]

86. I think I'm offended by your subject line o_o n/t

[Madspirit]

89. I think I don't care n/t

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Madspirit]

100. You're talking to a lesbian.

So I really don't think I would fit in.
You perhaps, in your infinite denseness, should consider Ann's site. Newbie.
Lee

[Forkboy]

104. He might have the time to read the site at his leisure very soon

:)

[slowry]

106. Infinite?

You gathered that from two posts? I'm impressed.

Your being a lesbian has roughly ZERO to do with the subject line of your post being needlessly offensive.

[Madspirit]

108. Then you missed the point entirely...

...and the 4200 other threads with "faggot" in the title and you just addressed forkboy and me, in one post. He said "infinite"...and yes, "lesbian" has everything to do with it.

Just as blacks can say the "n" word and whites can't, I can say these words. Get over it. We get to own them, if we wish and just as blacks say about the "n" word, when you use the words of your enemy, they lose some of their power.
Lee

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Madspirit]

110. I'm quite coherent

...and most people here are on my side. Newbie.

A lot of good folks have already replied and many of the best...Midlodemocrat, etc...aren't online right now.
Lee

[slowry]

113. Can you let me leave this thread please?

I have to keep returning, when you call me a newbie, or "infinitely dense". Maybe you think by doing that, you're winning the Internets. Really, you just come off as an extremely annoying person.

Have a nice day.

P.S. all I learned from this is that you're a lesbian and that I shouldn't be offended when I see a subject line of "Faggot, faggot, faggot" without first verifying that the OP isn't GLBTQ. Whatever, it's offensive either way.

More offensive is your dismissive attitude. Thankfully this newbie knows how to use the block feature.

[Madspirit]

116. Give me a break

I called you a newbie. You called me an asshole and got your post deleted.

...and have enough self control to not post if you don't want to. I am not responsible for your behavior. Leave the thread if you want. Run like the wind.
Lee

[Dastard Stepchild]

112. This is an interesting conversation, actually....

I am a B in the GLBTQ spectrum, and have a number of friends falling underneath all the other little letters. We have had numerous talks about reclaiming "queer" and "faggot" and "dyke" and "fencesitter", with some of us feeling as though this is a liberatory practice and others finding it to be a painful rehashing of negative experiences in their life.

I remember Dave Chapelle speaking about this when he was questioned on his use of the word "nigger" in his act and on his show. That kicked off a fresh round of conversation between myself and my friends. We also talked about our comfort or discomfort in non-GLBTQ people using these terms around us, even if friends. Again, some felt fine with it and others were conflicted.

I suppose I don't have any real point to this post, other than to mention that your comment above reminded me of many conversations I have had about the power of words to offend, to empower, to define and to create or destroy solidarity.

Cheers from your friendly online fencesitter! :)

:hi:

[WinkyDink]

90. It's a pejorative for gay men. It is a VULGARISM not spoken in polite company. Are you new to

American vernacular? My dictionary labels it "Offensive slang".
Do you think calling someone a "n*****" is the same as saying they are African-American?
Et freakin' cetera.

[Madspirit]

93. I don't know why

...you're talking to me. I'm a lesbian. I fucking know exactly what it means and I am the OP.
Lee

[WinkyDink]

96. Perhaps I misread. I THOUGHT your post was wondering what was so bad about what she said.

Upon re-reading, it SEEMS (I might still be wrong) that you're asking if there is a particular reason for one's being offended: for Edwards' sake; or for gays' sake.

I say: it matters not. The usage is per se offensive.

[Madspirit]

98. No

I perhaps did not word it well or perhaps YOU have such a high consciousness already that it just seems obvious to you. ...and I am not being snide. You had a similar reaction as my girlfriend's. "It's offensive on every level." I just know that one homophobe is not all we have. Being a leftist from the 60s and 70s I think there are things about ourselves we should always look at and confront. Criticism and self-criticism are important tools in becoming better, imo. Some people are way too complacent and defensive about their own bigotry. (Not you, I mean the ones I wrote the OP to.)
Lee

[HardRocker05]

115. it's not a trivial point; the insult was to gays, not to edwards, but a lot of i'm sure

well-meaning progressives are jumping on this in terms of "how dare she call edwards such a vile and disgusting thing?" just think how that sounds to gay people. there are also many progressives and people here on DU who do get it, and that's a good thing.

[Fenris]

118. Locking.

This is a flamefest.