Under 40s poll: Are you better off than your parents?

[LucyParsons]

I am posting this poll out of curiosity, in light of the recent posts here about the decline of the middle class, professionals in poverty, and the end of the American Dream (tm).

Are you better off than your parents at a comparable stage in their lives vis a vis ability to own a home, retirement prospects, standard of living, etc.?

[hendo]

1. I am temporarily much worse off than my parents

when debt is taken into account, hopefully by the end of this year though I will only be slightly worse off than they are.

[LucyParsons]

2. Comparison

At my age:

My parents
Had upgraded to their second owned home (typical 3/2 1960s suburban)
Had stable state government jobs with great traditional benefits
Had two late-model cars
Had no debt
Were able to support baby me


I
Rent a 600 square foot apartment
Have a stable government job with comparatively good benefits (which are currently under threat by our state legislature)
Have one late-model low-market car
Owe $45,000 in student debt and five figures of credit card debt
Cannot conceive of being able to support a family

[Hydra]

3. I'm doing about as well as my single mom did

Which is to say, abysmal. The sad thing is, I have a relatively good job and no kids- the fact that I am doing as badly as she did financially should tell you something.

[LucyParsons]

4. Ditto

nt

[Hydra]

5. I noticed your post

Someone changed the rules on us, and the older generation insist that we have more opportunities than they ever did.

Myths are so much more comforting than the truth, ne?

[LucyParsons]

7. You're doing fine if you have rich parents

Who paid for your college, got you a job through connections, etc.

Those of us who had to accrue debt to get a degree (while working 20 hours a week, in my case), have found out too late that the goalposts have been moved: a college degree is not only no longer an entry ticket to the middle class, it is - for a lot of us - not even a good idea.

[Hydra]

9. You've got it

I've worked hard for years trying to get ahead, but without the connections, I'm stuck where I am. I've worked off the little college debt I had(ran out of money first year), but any chance at advancement or going back to school seems slim.

So much for the "land of opportunity."

[Indenturedebtor]

8. They don't want to take any responsibility for it

They let the corporations completely take over and turn us all into indentured debtors to the multinational corporatocracy.

They bought into that trickle down bullshit, and laissez faire garbage.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

19. "They"????

Not me.

Not the Democrats who went insane when that numbskull Reagan was elected. We saw the writing on the wall and it wasn't pretty.

We all got fucked over and we are not liking it at all.

[Indenturedebtor]

24. Well those who deny it. Sorry for being unclear.

My Wife's parents deny that this is even happening for the most part. My parents change the subject when I bring up politics or economics hehe. I can be really annoying about it.

There are many out there (and here on this board) who continue to deny that future prospects have gotten worse heh.

Ah well what can you do? I hate being a salesman but it was the only profession in which you can thrash your way up to an income that's sufficient. Not there yet after 4 years or so, but I have hope. We'll see. Sales is of course heavily dependent on the economy. I took a job selling things to fast food chains, as I figured they would weather the depression better.

$1 cheeseburgers get more appealing to people the less money they have.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

18. Not this older person

I wouldn't have your future for anything.

I feel so sorry for my children who are 7 and 8 - We are doing what we can to make sure they will have this house for themselves - It will be paid for by the time they are in their mid 20's.

I hope there is some kind of turn around in the bleakest economy I have ever seen.

Peace to you.

BTW - the people I know who are my age and older agree with me. Even the Republican dimwits.

(I am 51)

[Hydra]

20. Glad to hear it

And kudos for trying to leave the paid off house to the kids.

Even the republican dimwits? My grandparents and their friends were the loudest about how we had things "easy", while they gambled away their retirement.

[Mountainman]

23. I'm older than you and I agree with you. I often feel grateful that I was born when I was

and that I am not a young person today. Sure I would like to be youthful but I wouldn't want to put up with what young people are putting up with today.

To say it is all the boomer's fault is not looking at things realistically. In the 60's Johnson had an idea he called the great society. That didn't happen mainly because of the war in Vietnam but also because a lot of the government programs did not get the desired results. That is what got Reagan elected. After that it was all down hill from there. I did not put Reagan in the White House. I was drafted when I was 19 years old. I lived through 3 assassinations and the civil rights movement. It looked like for a time the country was going to break up into anarchy. My parents lived through WWII and the depression. We did not have it made yet we had more opportunity than kids do today.

I went to college in my 30's and worked full time and was married. It was what gave me the ticket to the middle class. My dad had a factory job all his life and had a retirement and other benefits because of his union affiliation. He did alright but there was no such thing for me. I had it harder than he did.

We all have to work together to make the young people's future as bright as it can be.

[raccoon]

34. Same here--in my late 50's. I too often feel grateful that I was born when I was

and that I am not a young person today. Heck, sometimes I wish I'd been born earlier than I was.

I had it harder than my parents did too.

Great post!

[ceile]

6. Me too.

Good job, no kids and still living pay check to pay check. My mom did the same thing, but w/ 2 kids in college and a young one at home (me) and still was better off than I am right now.

[Hydra]

10. Unreal

But it's nice not to be alone...too bad we're not in the similar situation of having more than we can spend, though :evilgrin:

[KillCapitalism]

11. Here's my comparison:

My parents

Bought their own home for $32,000 in 1960 (a fairly pricey home for back then) when my dad was 25 and my mom 21. My dad said he was making $18,000 a year then (which was great money) he also had full health & dental insurance for the family that he didn't pay a dime for, and a pension. My mom stayed home & did not work.

They owned a new station wagon.

They had no debt.

They were saving about 20% of their income.

My dad had NO student loans after college. His tuition was only about $200 a semester IIRC.


Me

Just moved out of my parent's place at 31, now sharing an apartment.

I have a job making $12.50 an hour, thankfully have health insurance, but no 401K & no pension.

If I have a good month, (no emergency expenses) I can MAYBE save 4-5% of my income.

I have $1,500 in CC debt and HAD $12K in student loans that I just paid off last year.

So yeah, I'm not doing near as well as my dad did.

[InvisibleTouch]

12. Depends on how you define "better" or "worse."

Financially and in terms of debt, worse, no question. While the economy plays some part in that situation, another part is a personality issue; my mother has always been very exacting and disciplined about financial matters, and I have always been ... otherwise, shall we say. Part of it is personal choices, having taken different career paths and having very different priorities. But my mother at my age was a divorced single mom who had been through a bad marriage and had to juggle two kids, and that was a trap I never fell into. She came out of a generation where it was simply a given that a woman was expected to marry and have kids; I've never felt that pressure, or when I have, I've felt entirely free to disregard it. I've managed to avoid a lot of the entanglements that made (and still make) my mother's life difficult. Part of that, again, is due to the changing times, and part of that is due to individual personality differences. In that regard I consider myself much better off.

[ProfessorGAC]

13. Somewhat Better Off

Make more money than my parents ever did, even adjusted for inflation. Paid off the house sooner than they did.

And, if my dad had gotten MS when he was 38, like i did, he would have not been able to do his job (truck driver).

So, given the kind of work i do, it didn't affect me the way it would have them.

They did ok. (Teamsters made good money back in the day.) But, i'd say i'm a little more comfortable than they were at my age.
The Professor

[LSK]

14. slightly worse, my dad was in the Union for 40 years

So he never really had to worry about pension or health insurance.

[John Kerry VonErich]

15. I find your question disturbing.

I hope this is not entrapment.

[taught_me_patience]

16. Way better. Here's the comparison

I am 30 yo for comparison sake. My father was 30 yo in 1978.

Parents:
Income: 35k (est)
Bought home in 1978 for 115k (3/2 in Hawaii). My mother still lives in it.
Car: 1 Toyota Corona
Savings: none
School debt: none
Credit Card Debt: none


Me and Fiance:
Income: 210k
Rent: 2k/mo (looking to purchase home in Long Beach for 650k)
Car: 2005 Honda Accord and 2005 BMW 3-series
Savings: 100k
School Debt: 135k and rising (her: med school me: 1 year of MBA program)
Credit Card Debt: none

The standard of living is not even comparible.

[MilesColtrane]

17. 1 son of my parents is quite better off...

1 son is worse off.

My brother got a job with a pharmaceutical company 25 years ago.

I became a musician.

He put his kids through private school and is now paying college tuition for both, while planning a vacation overseas.

I don't own a house, or have health insurance, and my net worth is somewhere in the four figure area after accounting for debt.

[WillyToad]

21. In the Not-For-Profit world we call this, the, 'anxious class'

As the divide between rich and poor gets wider, those in the middle feel a pull toward the bottom.

[GoesTo11]

22. I'm basically replicating my parents' life.

Same career, slightly lower income, slightly smaller house, slightly smaller family. Feels like it was harder to get to this point, but I don't really know how hard it was for them. In some ways, life is easier for me than for them, because their parents had very little.

I think the biggest issues in the change for people in younger generations are: college costs a lot now, houses in pleasant locations cost a lot now, so this makes it harder when jobs are slightly worse. But we also have higher expectations for spending on toys and fun (less cheap fun). It's just natural to want a big TV or video games or hotwire vacations to Vegas in a way that just didn't happen in the old days. One of the skills that the young people should be learning is frugality (or consumer economics as they used to call it). Frugality was basically forgotten during the Baby Boom generation. You have to manage the money going out as well as going in, and you have to do it early so you don't dig a hole -- hey, this holds for the country too!

[Indenturedebtor]

25. You're forgetting something

Between 2008 and 1970 -

1970- cost for neccessities - approx 30% of average "middle class" household income with ONE full time wage earner. Better health coverage, more vacation, less working hours, less productivity per worker, better retirement plan.

2008- cost for neccessities - approx 75% of average "middle class" household income with TWO full time wage earners working more hours with far fewer benefits.

Neccesities are of course - healthcare, transportation to work, housing, food, clothes.

Yes people spend money on videogames etc... but as a percentage of household income these expenses are minimal. And what's more you pretty much have to have a computer and a cellphone nowadays. You can't get/hold a job without them... they are neccessities any more. I don't think that a flat screen tv and an xbox are what are pushing people over the edge.

[GoesTo11]

28. not so sure

I see a lot of people who live in my neighborhood and make more than me, but they don't save anything. They are always getting new cars, taking vacations, having home improvements. Same with people at work, buying more house than they can afford or spending money on cars and vacations and then having to work extra to make up for it. These are people in their 30s & 40s mostly.

I talk to people in their 20s a lot, and they seem to spend $ on stuff I wouldn't. A lot are students from working class origins, but some of them buy new cars, spend a lot on clothes, get more laptop than they need, etc. (or go to a private college for a year before they realize they can't afford it and drop out to go to a state school, but the damage is already done). Not saying that's the only thing that's going on, but there's a whole marketing industry that sets out to get people stuck in a cycle of debt early and to keep them there for a long time. We don't do enough to learn how to resist this demon.

Not saying at all that this is the only thing but it's a big one for some people.

Another biggie that you just mentioned is housing - in some places because of the RE bubble, it's just crazy. If you have to pay 30k per year for a mortgage for something not very good, I don't know what you can do. Move maybe? It's messed up.

One thing that's a lot worse than when I was a kid is that there's much less free or cheap fun. Parks are crowded and messy, beaches are all private, even no public restrooms or water fountains. College football games are priced like pro games. Baseball bleacher seats are priced like opera. So you do without this kind of thing and just get cheap dvd rentals, and the quality of life is worse.

Argh, this is a depressing thread.

[Indenturedebtor]

31. Yeah it's a mess

I think a big part of the problem is that this whole credit thing has enabled people to continue to increase prices without increasing wages. There is no pressure on the market to reduce prices, and the CEO's can continue to make more and more money... the economy can continue to be skewed towards serving the top few percent.

At this point the crash is completely inevitable unless we enact legislation to recirculate all that money at the top. Our economy is completely out of balance.

I do agree that there are many irresponsible spenders out there. But if 75% of our income didn't go towards housing and other necessities then there would be plenty of money for the occassional football game, etc. 75% is an unworkable number unless you have all this credit and crap. Do away with the credit at this point and you bring the economy completely to a halt.

[raccoon]

36. Some good points you made, esp. in this paragraph:

"One thing that's a lot worse than when I was a kid is that there's much less free or cheap fun."

And IMO the price of tickets to rock concerts became obscenely high some time ago.

[raccoon]

35. I pointed out something like what you said the other day on another thread but got no responses.

Here's what I posted:


One reason that it take two incomes to support a middle-class lifestyle that used to require one is that the bar has been raised for what is considered a middle-class lifestyle. Houses built in recent years are, on average, MUCH larger than the average house of a few decades ago. People have more vehicles per family. People have more "stuff" and expect more stuff. Instead of wearing hand-me-downs from siblings or cousins, kids want brand-name clothes. Many high school students have cars nowadays; when I was in high school, that was rare. Kids go to their high school proms in rented limos. That was unheard of decades ago.

Now, I realize that medical care, education, and housing, have gone up WAY more than the official inflation stats. Those higher costs are one reason for the two incomes, but they're not the whole story.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3313011&mesg_id=3313119

[Dukkha]

26. much worse

People who lived in the 50's and 60's had it so easy it's ridiculous. 70's was where it started declining and the 80's "Reganomics" effectively killed the middle class.

[Anexio]

27. Much better, but not happier.

I own my own company and have managed to pay off all my collage debts as well as paid my parents back for what they put in.

Actually, they wouldn't let me pay them so I paid for an addition to their house and bought my mother a new car.

I'm much better off financially but I can't say I'm happier.

[ileus]

29. it's hard to say...depends on what better off means.

My parents at my age.

neither went to college.
20k per year
2 kids
small farm 70acres
small house
2 late model vehicles

0 debt 250k assets


The wife and I.

both college grads
80k
2 kids
3 vehicles
177k debt 75k assets....

big difference was back then there was no such thing as credit. My father bought the farm for 5k, it's worth 250k now.
They have a phone bill and electric bill. Paid cash for all their vehicles, new or used. Only my father is alive now. Mom and Dad lost almost 70k when enron bit the dust...

[GoesTo11]

32. Glad your father is alive even though he bought the farm.

Couldn't resist.

[Lyric]

30. Slightly better off, however

that isn't saying much. My parents were horribly, incredibly poor--both uneducated, and my Dad a PTSD-suffering Vietnam Vet who got no treatment or help, and lived as an alcoholic for decades in order to sleep at night.

I'm still poor...but not as badly as they were. I have only one child, they had three. I'm in college, neither of them finished high school.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

33. Slighty worse

I am a little better but they were raising five kids by this point in their lives, I have two..

[Heddi]

37. Much better off than my single-mother parent

I'm 32, married, double-income household of approximately $150,000 a year. No children, no debt other than about $8k in school loans. No car payment, no mortgage. I have about $10,000 in savings in the bank and that amount grows weekly. I go on European vacations at least once a year. I have one college degree, working on my second starting in August.

When my mom was 32, she had a 12 year old child (me) and an annual income of about $14,000 give or take. She has a high school education. She, too, had no mortgage or car payments, but was indebted to loan companies throughout my childhood. We lived in a trailer with holes in the floor and a car that was constantly on its last leg.

But I don't think I'm "better" than my mother---she was a young parent--got pregnant when she was 19, had me when she was 20. In 1976 there weren't the opportunities for women to go to college like there are now, as far as grants and loans and such go.

We lived in poverty because she worked low wage jobs, often more than one at a time. Had it not been for family, we would have been homeless more than once, and as I child I grew up knowing PAINFULLY the reality of 'one paycheck away from homelessness". We often went without power or water for days at a time, and I didn't have cable TV or a home telephone until I was 17 years old. We used foodbanks and I got many a christmas presents from the "angel tree" thing at the mall where people could "sponsor" a poor child and give them needed things like socks and undies for christmas presents. I wore hand me downs and meals consisted of starches and very little meat and veggies.

Because of the cut-off for poverty, we were never eligible for food stamps, AFDC, or welfare after I turned 3 years old, so it was all on our own.

When I graduated high school, I waffeled around in poverty myself, and when I was 21 I met my to-be husband. We've been together for 11 years, married for 8, and for most of that time together our combined income never was over $30,000. Then we moved from SC to Seattle and made better money and generally lived better. Gradually our income rose, as did our standard of living. We were finally able to save money for things we thought as important--not cars or houses, but vacations and "me" time.

Then I went to nursing school with the aid of loans and grants, and am now an RN making around $80k a year. My husband also went to nursing school and is an RN as well.

My mother didn't have those opportunities. That's one of the reasons we don't have children--I vowed at a very young age that I would never suffer a child to live in such situations. And seeing how life is very labile and can change at the drop of a hat, just because I can afford a child now doesn't mean I can afford one in 3 or 10 or 15 years from now. Oh and I really don't like kids either, but that's beside the point.