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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:07 PM
Original message
"Libby Jurors: Define 'Reasonable Doubt'"
WASHINGTON (AP) - Jurors asked for a definition of "reasonable doubt" as they completed a shortened, eighth day of deliberations Friday in the perjury trial of ex-White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby.

They were to get an answer when they return Monday morning.

The written question the jurors sent to the judge offered the first real glimpse into the deliberations and suggested jurors were discussing Libby's memory, a key element in his defense.

"We would like clarification of the term 'reasonable doubt,'" jurors wrote. "Specifically, is it necessary for the government to present evidence that it is not humanly possible for someone not to recall an event in order to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."

http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20070303/D8NKDSPO0.html
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is quite ludicrous
Conservative republicans are lying, hateful, manipulative, cowardly, ignorant (and proud of it) disgusting human beings beyond any doubt whatsoever.

scooter perjured himself. A blind man can see that. There has got to be a disruptor on that jury.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Sounds like it
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. My first thought.
Somebody is hanging the jury. Intended to all along.
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. sheesh. "reasonable" is pretty self-explanatory
If i can reasonably believe that just because it is possible for any given human not to remember something than I can reasonably believe I'm going to win powerball.
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. That the concept of "Reasonable Doubt" is up for debate...
Is not a good sign I'm afraid. :(
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. I agree. It's not exactly a new concept in American jurisprudence.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. Darn. I'm kicking because I want to see what others say ... ....n/t
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. You watch. The juror kicked off was the only hold out against acquittal.
Edited on Sat Mar-03-07 03:53 PM by NoodleyAppendage
If I were a betting man, I would posit that the jury foreman is a Repuke ringer placed for his leadership skills (i.e., convincing seemingly normal professional adults to wear stupid heart t-shirts in a federal court house trial...all but one). The hold out against the acquittal fix will be the juror kicked off the panel. The Bush appointed judge denies Fitzpatrick's request for one of the alternates...again supporting the fix.

J
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I so hope you're wrong, but I voiced concerns about this before
concerning the art curator being kicked off and refusing to 'join the gang' in a stupid act of unanimity. Instead of the sole dissenter she might be the sole defender of conviction.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. If she was the "sole defender of conviction" the jury would have reached a verdict by now.
If the suggestion is that she was the lone holdout against acquittal, once removed there would have been no impediment to an acquittal. So all one can conclude based upon facts available is that wasn't the case since no verdict has been reached.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'm not concluding a darn thing! All was speculation in regard
to the previous post.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Didn't say you had concluded anything. Just pointed out a logical flaw in the speculation suggested
by the other poster.

Doesn't appear that the jury is rushing to judgement, one way or the other. Looks like they're methodically working through the charges and the jury questionnaire.

Jeralyn Merritt suggests that a juror or jurors might have gotten questions about what constitutes reasonable doubt from Wells' closing, although they do have jury instructions that address what constitutes reasonable doubt. http://www.talkleft.com/story/2007/3/2/224645/3472
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Thanks Garbo 2004. You and H2O Man have alleviated
some of my angst!

:hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. If she had taken
a pro-prosecution stance, we can be 100% sure that Teddy Wells would have demanded a mistrial. She was advocating a "not guilty" verdict.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I hope you're right. Is this just speculation?
:hi: H2O Man!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Teddy Wells
is not going to look the other way if he has any indication that the jury could have been infected by "pro-prosecution" evidence not introduced in the trial.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. 1. Fitzgerald was appointed US attorney for Chicago by Bush. Do you suspect him too?
2. If the dismissed juror was the only hold out against acquittal as you suggest, then why hasn't the jury reached a unanimous verdict by now? If it's all "fixed" as you suggest and she was the only impediment to a full acquittal, they'd have delivered a verdict by now.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. The theory that
the dismissed juror was advocating conviction, and the the unidentified jury foreman is a republican super-spy, is pretty solid evidence that such shortcuts to logic frequently lead one to foolish conclusions.

Your position, on the other hand, is right on target.
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. We do know, however, that she was an independent thinker...
The fact that she wouldn't wear the stupid t-shirt is very telling in my opinion. This suggests that she could not be swayed by peer pressure or group conformity, which is exactly what one would like in an impartial jury. Instead, now all that are left are jurors who can be easily swayed into performing an act that is inappropriate for venue; thus, they are suggestible and likely to be easily led by an authority figure on the jury.

We also know that they are seeking the definition of "reasonable doubt," which further bodes ill for a conviction.

J
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. WaPo article about Libby Jury's question, and definitions of
'reasonable doubt'

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/02/AR2007030200406_pf.html

Libby Jury Seeks Clarity On 'Reasonable Doubt'

By Amy Goldstein and Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, March 3, 2007; A04

Jurors in the perjury trial of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby asked the presiding judge for help yesterday defining a core issue in their deliberations: how to set a standard for determining whether the vice president's former chief of staff is guilty beyond a "reasonable doubt."
At the end of its eighth day of deliberations, the foreman of the 11-member jury sent U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton a two-sentence note. "We would like clarification of the term 'reasonable doubt,' " the note said. "Specifically, is it necessary for the government to present evidence that it is not humanly possible for someone not to recall an event in order to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?"
The question, which Walton plans to address when jurors resume deliberating Monday, reflects the central role that human memory played in the month-long testimony in the trial. According to jury and evidence experts, the question -- which refers to what information Libby might have forgotten -- signifies that at least one juror is concerned how strictly to define reasonable doubt.
The concept of reasonable doubt is among the most controversial issues in jury deliberations, experts say, because it is a vague term that people interpret differently. Though the standard is meant to require a very high probability of guilt, research conducted with juries after trials has demonstrated those who worked together to reach a unanimous verdict nevertheless may have used different benchmarks of what constituted reasonable doubt.
Northwestern University law professor Ronald Allen, an authority on trial evidence and procedure, said the Libby jury is wise to seek clarity but added that it is unlikely that any judge can dispel the standard's ambiguity.
"Some people might say beyond reasonable doubt is 99 or 98 percent," Allen said. "Some might say any doubt at all . There is literally no test."
Libby, 56, is charged with five felony counts alleging that in 2003 he lied to FBI agents and a federal grand jury investigating a leak by the Bush administration of the identity of Valerie Plame, an undercover CIA officer. Plame is married to former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, a staunch early critic of President Bush's Iraq war policy.
Wilson was sent by the CIA to Africa in 2002 to assess reports that Iraq had been trying to buy uranium for a nuclear weapons program. Wilson concluded those reports were false. Shortly after the Iraq war began, he publicly lashed out at Bush and Vice President Cheney, accusing the administration of distorting his findings to justify the invasion.
Prosecutors allege that, in the spring and early summer of 2003, Libby aggressively sought out information about Wilson and Plame, then channeled word of her CIA job to journalists and the White House press secretary to imply that Wilson had been chosen for the mission to Niger out of nepotism.
The prosecution alleges that Libby deliberately lied to investigators to protect his job and spare the White House political embarrassment.
Defense attorneys contend their client simply misremembered his conversations about Wilson and Plame, because he was so busy with more important work. Special Counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald sought to convince jurors that Libby could not plausibly have forgotten the conversations.
The question about reasonable doubt is the more significant of two notes the jury sent to the judge when they ended deliberations for the week at 2 p.m. yesterday. The other note concerns the count that alleges that Libby obstructed the leak probe.
Jurors asked the judge how much of Libby's grand jury testimony they should consider when deciding whether he is guilty on that count.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/q016.htm

REASONABLE DOUBT - The level of certainty a juror must have to find a defendant guilty of a crime. A real doubt, based upon reason and common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence, or lack of evidence, in a case.

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that you would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in the most important of your own affairs. However, it does not mean an absolute certainty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

Beyond a reasonable doubt

This is the standard required by the prosecution in most criminal cases within an adversarial system. This means that the proposition must be proven to the extent that there is no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a reasonable person. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would be "unreasonable" to assume the falsity of the proposition. The precise meaning of words such as "reasonable" and "doubt" are usually defined within jurisprudence of the applicable country. In the United States, it is usually reversible error to instruct a jury that they should find guilt on a certain percentage of certainty (such as 90% certain). Usually, reasonable doubt is defined as "any doubt which would make a reasonable person hesitate in the most important of his or her affairs."

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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Libby jury instructions re: reasonable doubt available in pdf format from Talk Left blog.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Thanks Garbo 2004. n/t
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Left Hook Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. Remember, its a jury of 11 not 12
and thats what the Libby team wanted after one jurror was booted.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Yep :^(
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Libby's defense team didn't want the alternate juror on the jury. According to observers
(FDL I think) the alternate juror who would have been added to the jury did not appear to be sympathetic to the defense.

If the defense team had the same read on the alternate as the FDL folks, they'd rather take their chances with the jury panel they had than add a suspected pro-prosecution juror to the panel.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
24. They're not the sharpest knives in the drawer
This question, plus the idiotic t-shirt stunt, leads me to believe this is a jury full of sheeple.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
26. That's a stupid question
Doesn't bode well.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
28. that's an absolute certainty, not beyond a reasonable doubt
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