Am I a racist or protectionist?

[TechBear_Seattle]

Here is the situation: I am the senior programmer (actually, the only programmer) for a mid-size brokerage firm in Seattle. We are about to begin a major project, and are looking to hire a second programmer for about a year.

My boss, who's the head of the IT department, has set his sights on a guy from India who has been in the US for four years on a H-1B tech worker visa. I know a number of Americans with similar high qualifications and strong background, but my boss will not even look at their resumes.

Two years ago we hired out a project, which went to some friends in China. I raised objections, saying that there are US companies at least as qualified to do the work which would help improve the poor job market for tech in the area (Seattle and environs is still recovering from the glut of workers created by the dot com bust.) He cited "fiscal responsibility to the company" to get the cheapest rate for the work; further objections met with hostile silence and a contract being signed without any input from me. Because of this, I am unwilling to point out that there are American programmers who are just as qualified and who will do the same work for the same pay, and that we can improve our community by keeping the money local rather than having it shipped out of the country.

I don't think I'm being protectionist or anti-non-American, and I don't think I'm racist in my concerns; I just feel that we should be supporting local workers who are being forced out of jobs by off-shoring and the H-1B program. But then, few protectionists, xenophobes and racists can honestly acknowledge their motives.

Your thoughts?

[MercutioATC]

1. Racist!!!!

hehe

No, you're neither racist or protectionist.


You're feeling what the government should be legislating...equally-qualified Americans should be hired to do these jobs.

There should be an economic advantage to doing so...or, at very least, companied that choose to outsource should be stripped of economic incentives they've been getting.


This is an issue of economic survival and fairness, not a racist or protectionist issue.

[gateley]

2. You're neither. I think you're being a good American.

I can understand (though it makes me :grr:) the company's desire to get the best for the least amount of pay. It's always about the money and the bottom line. But if you know local people who are as qualified and would work for the same salary, what's the problem?

UNLESS -- do companies get tax credits or something for hiring those with H1B visas?

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. No, no credits

Our back-office staff, from receptionist to Chief Executive Officer, is about 30 people, so I don't think we could qualify for such credits. Anyway, we do very little contracting; in the 13 years I have been here, this is only the second time we've hired contract technical work. We are not Microsoft or Adobe or Boeing, three local companies that have lobbied very hard first to create, then greatly expand, the tech worker visa program. And while I was able to buy the excuse with regards to the Chinese contractors because it was cheaper and the time difference was useful, it won't wash when the contractee will be working in the office with us.

[mike_c]

3. my thoughts....

I think you've tacitly acknowledged that there isn't any good way to frame this issue, and either way of resolving it carries lots of emotional baggage. Only you can really understand what your motives are, but I'm sure you realize that the EFFECT of protecting American jobs in this instance is an action that is indistinguishable from the same action performed for racist or xenophobic reasons. That's what I meant when I said there is no good way to frame either the situation or the potential ways resolving it.

My personal feeling is that the REAL problem is the one expressed by your boss-- the belief that "fiscal responsibility to the company" trumps all other rationales. First and foremost, corporations are generally the most selfish and amoral entities imaginable, and if another human demanded that degree of blind loyalty we'd probably label them sociopathic and pack them away somewhere where they couldn't start world wars or torture kittens. Somewhere along the road to modern capitalist economies we've allowed employers to make the leap from renting our time to demanding our personal loyalty. There is something positively feudal in that. Anyway, before I digress too much, I think your boss should be somewhat more objective than you've portrayed him as being, but as you suggest, his loyalties appear to be an easily purchased commodity.

[treestar]

5. A protectionist

But if they will work for the same $$, why does your boss want this guy?

But the thing is, if he is already legally here at H-1B, your boss does legally have a choice of this guy. If your boss just likes him best, he can hire him.

So you are advocating discrimination among legal workers. Would this rise to the green card level? Say this guy had his green card. If you're saying there should always be discrimination in favor of citizens, then there would be a problem with the 14th amendment case law that forbids discrimination based on alienage.

You can try to convince your boss and so on, but legally he does have the right to pick this particular guy. You're not talking about a new H-1B but one who is already here.

I think it is apparent there is some shortage of US qualified workers in this area, or they wouldn't be eligible for H-1Bs or employment based green cards. This is also true for RNs. It's the labor market that is that way and the qualified Americans all have jobs. The Americans won't get paid more by hamstringing the companies from growing and then hiring for vacancies. There is probably a hope that if they are in high demand, they'll get paid more, but the economy has never worked that way. We're not going to do without nurses or computer techs and pay the few we have huge wages, but still have unstaffed hospitals or companies that aren't growing.

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. I think you misunderstand my quandry

My boss is certainly free to hire this person. I would definitely prefer that the work go to a citizen rather than a foreigner; my concern is whether my rationale is "pure" or BS front for xenophobia.

As for a shortage of qualified computer programmers: While there are parts of the United States where that is true, it most definitely is not true in the Pacific Northwest. Companies such as Microsoft, RealNetworks, Adobe, Amazon, Nintendo and Vulcan have made the Seattle area a vast magnet for technical expertise. The problem is that the dot com bust in 2001 hit us very hard and there are a lot of highly qualified people struggling to find work. Given that we have a large bin from which to pick, I find it difficult to justify hiring someone who came to this country on a tech visa after so many (relatively) local people were put out of work.

[OhioChick]

23. Don't Be Sucked into That "Shortage" BS....

Duke Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers

A new study argues that the offshoring of U.S. jobs is caused by cost savings and not a shortage of U.S. engineers or better education in China. However, the study warns that the United States is losing its global edge.

A commonly heard defense in the arguments that surround U.S. companies that offshore high-tech and engineering jobs is that the U.S. math and science education system is not producing a sufficient number of engineers to fill a corporations needs.

However, a new study from Duke University calls this argument bunk, stating that there is no shortage of engineers in the United States, and that offshoring is all about cost savings.

This report, entitled "Issues in Science and Technology" and published in the latest National Academy of Sciences magazine further explores the topic of engineering graduation rates of India, China and the United States, the subject of a 2005 Duke study.

In the report, concerns are raised that China is racing ahead of both the United States and India in its ability to perform basic research. It also asserts that the United States is risking losing its global edge by outsourcing critical R&D and India is falling behind by playing politics with education. Meanwhile, it considers China well-positioned for the future.

Dukes 2005 study corrected a long-heard myth about India and China graduating 12 times as many engineers as the United States, finding instead that the United States graduates a comparable number.


http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Careers/Study-There-Is-No-Shortage-of-US-Engineers/

Do a search, there are many other studies out there that show the same results.

[Runcible Spoon]

26. well there may be no shortage of numbers...

but as my fiance found out job hunting for programming positions, one of the real incentives of hiring foreigners is that they are perfectly willing to relocate anywhere you tell them there is an opening. Laid off or unemployed engineers may not be willing or able to move from Arizona to California at teh drop of a hat for a new job for many many reasons; as such I can certainly see pockets where there is a void of qualified workers. Whether or not this situation is helped or worsened by the importation of H1-Bs certainly can be argued either way and I have put my 2C in below.

[verges]

37. The very fact

that you're asking the question shows that your heart is in the right place. I honestly believe that all people are racist and xenophobic to a certain extent. The challenge as a Human is to recognize it, and conquer it.

[Runcible Spoon]

25. thing is H1-B's have an expiration date (I think 6 years but could be wrong)

so companies have a certain advantage in hiring them in terms of the bottom line. They can probably cut corners offering extensive health insurance policies since the workers won't be with the company continuously for more than 6 years and the H1B holders are very likely to be young and thus less likely to get expensive chronic health problems. Since H1-B recipient is absolutely contingent upon the sponsorship of the company to keep his visa status AND put in a good word for permanent residence should the worker choose to apply, the worker really is at the mercy of the company to keep him there. That's an awful lot of power over a vulnerable employee.

I'm definitely not arguing for discrimination of foreign-born workers who are legally entitled to seeking jobs; my fiance is one such programmer who is set to immigrate, marry me, and seek work in the States. However the fact remains that the current H1-B system is ripe for exploitation by employers who can just cycle workers in and out. There have been many documented cases of companies placing deceptive ads to "prove" that the job could not be filled by an AMerican worker. As with all things, I think that there are many areas without qualified workers to fill the spots but the H1-B program is extremely vulnerably for exploitation and the only winners here are the greedy CEOs.

[Demonaut]

6. he's probably wondering what national will replace you

dude, great that you stood up to the outsourcing but I think it'll take a sea change to reverse this...fuck clinton and the repugs for opening this pandoras box......any US company that outsources should be asked "why do you hate America?"

[JuniperLea]

7. My guess is this guy would be cheaper to hire than an American

Am I right?

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. He has very impressive credientials

I think he could get pretty much any salary he wants. And I'm certain that there are a dozen equally qualified Americans who would work for the same salary.

[Regret My New Name]

24. How about finding some of those equally qualified Americans?

I mean, I think your boss would appreciate it if you were able to find someone whom ia local, willing to work for the same pay, and has same qualifications. If his motivation is money, then I would assume he would ultimately end up saving money if he was to go that route, no?


*on edit*
reread your post... The guy sounds like a fool. If you know people with the same qualifications and willing to accept the same salary, isn't he wasting money where he doesn't have to? (assuming it costs money to sponser someone, right?) Also, someone below said it was illegal...

How secure are you in your job if you pointed that out?

[RB TexLa]

8. Nether a racist or a protectionist is better than the other. Both are lower than dog shit.

You can fertilize stuff with dog shit.

[Romulox]

11. Mods: Why are right wing trolls allowed to post on DU???

[ret5hd]

18. Sometimes 'cause they're fun:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=5330132

[tkmorris]

29. Don't forget this one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2951799

[Romulox]

38. Thanks for the link! I am now convinced RGBolen is not a right wing troll

He is a right wing robot!

[Blue_Tires]

39. holy DAMN! how did i ever miss that one??

that thread is overflowing with WIN:freak:

[RB TexLa]

20. Are you saying protectionism or racism are liberal or progressive ideals?

because neither are.

[Runcible Spoon]

22. my fiance is a foreigner and I would selfishly love for him to somehow benefit from a company paying

for his Visa process rather than us having to do the paperwork and putting up the $1,000+....however as he is a programmer we have been through the hoops discussing this issue and while I think American should loosen up immigration restrictions for qualified workers, I DON'T think the current trend of shipping in H1-B's to cut costs is doing any justice for the issue. A little bit of protectionism is a GOOD thing and it can be progressive because protecting citizen worker rights is extremely important and gawd knows taking neoliberal policies to the extreme is good for only one entity: the corporation. Not the foreign worker who gets shipped in/gets the job shipped out to, not to the prospective native applicants to that job, not to the local economies, but just to the greedy bottom line period.

[tkmorris]

30. Neither is rampant Pro-Corporatism

Which is what you unabashedly practice.

[fed_up_mother]

33. huh

"Are you saying protectionism or racism are liberal or progressive ideals?

because neither are."

And corporate record profits while screwing the American worker would be your idea of progressive values, I suppose?

[fed_up_mother]

34. huh

"Are you saying protectionism or racism are liberal or progressive ideals?

because neither are."

And corporate record profits while screwing the American worker would be your idea of progressive values, I suppose?

[ret5hd]

14. I don't fertilize with you.

[TechBear_Seattle]

16. Thank you for helping deal with my concerns

I am glad to know that trying to get jobs for people who are actually a part of my community makes me "lower than dog shit."

[Romulox]

10. Do you drive a Toyota, Honda, or a Subaru?

:shrug:

[TechBear_Seattle]

19. I don't own a car

I had one for three years, spending almost $5000 a year on insurance, gas, maintenance and parking. When I sold it back to the dealer, it had 4023 miles on it. I am fortunate enough to live in an area where I can walk to work, the downtown retail core, most movie theaters and a large choice of grocery stores and restaurants, with the bus system when I need it and http://www.zipcar.com">ZipCar on the very rare occation that I actually need a vehicle.

And while I owned a Honda Civic EX, most of the parts were made in the US and the vehicle itself was assembled at the East Liberty, Ohio plant (yes, I actually did check.) The irony is that most Hondas sold in the US have more American made parts than most Fords.

So there. :patriot:

[Romulox]

27. Fair enough, but you are simply wrong on one point:

"And while I owned a Honda Civic EX, most of the parts were made in the US..."

Sounds like most of the IT work is being done in the US as well, so where do you have room to complain? You sound more like a NIMBYist than a protectionist.

"The irony is that most Hondas sold in the US have more American made parts than most Fords."

This is simply and utterly untrue. :hi:

[IronLionZion]

32. Do you have a source for the US parts figure?

I've been curious as well. My Civic and my old Camry had more than 65% US parts. Do you know the figures for popular Fords or Chevys, maybe the Focus and Cobalt?

[rucky]

12. Anti-exploitationist. n/t

[ret5hd]

13. 1) what he is doing is illegal:

The H-1B allows U.S. employers to employ foreign guest workers skilled in specialty occupations if a U.S. citizen or resident is not available.

2)H-1B work-authorization is strictly limited to employment by the sponsoring employer. In other words, if he hires that guy, he has to apply for a new H-1B visa with YOUR company as the sponsor.

[OhioChick]

36. Bingo! n/t

[depakid]

17. Sounds to me like you're simply trying to buck a dysfunctional trend

on a more localized level.

Not that it'll be much solace, but not too many years from now, you'll at least be able to say to yourself that you were right- and tried to do something about it.

[mitchum]

21. Neither; you are pro American Labor Movement

[barnel]

28. what do you call someone who wishes Americans to be given equal consideration with foreign?

'a racist'

[IronLionZion]

31. I'm an Indian-American IT worker, and you are neither racist nor protectionist

If your opposition had anything to do with the fellow's race, then you would be racist. There definitely are several real and open racists on this very forum. If by American workers you really meant "white", or "black" or whatever then you'd be not only racist, but completely stupid as well. There are those on this board too. You seem to be OK. :hi:

Protectionism has to do with restricting international trade. I'm less clear on this but I think if you simply want Americans to get business contracts first, before foreign companies and/or foreign visa holders, then you should be fine.

You should know that I am a hard-core supporter of outsourcing because it makes fiscal and practical sense to contract out specific work to consulting firms who are specialized to do it rather than invest in training your own from scratch just to fire them. My suggestions would be to find some American IT contracting firms and suggest them to your company. There are many. Those firms need to market themselves well enough to overcome the biased and shortsighted belief that a foreign company would be cheaper.

Obviously you and I know that Americans can do it, but management has to be shown that Americans can do it. The unions (blue collar) over here in Minnesota advertise quality, reliability, dedication, etc. as the way to long-term profitability over short term cost savings. They have a business-owner saying people told him he couldn't afford to hire union workers, but he's found he can't afford NOT to.

Patriotism not hate :patriot:

[fed_up_mother]

35. You're an American who is tired of seeing American workers screwed by

big corporate profits.

And don't let the shitheads who will call you a racist get to you. My husband works in IT, and he will ALWAYS hire an American over an immigrant. Why? Because he works for a progressive company who doesn't expect him to hire the cheapest labor. He hires American programmers.

And SCREW anyone who finds that racist. (Hint: the last programmer he hired wasn't "white," but he was an American citizen.)