I knew the buses and light rail were getting more crowded

[Roon]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/10/business/10transit.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

[Squatch]

1. Good! Very good news.

[Roon]

4. I agree,Squatch

Maybe gas going up to $4.00 a gallon won't be such a bad thing after all.

[bobbolink]

5. Sure 'nufff. Don't give a worry about all those poor folk who now are shit outta luck.

Naw, that wouldn't be important, would it?

:mad:

[Roon]

11. I know bobbo

It's very painful for folks who have no other choice. I happen to live in a city that has the best mass transit system in the country, so it is very easy for me to say..

[bobbolink]

16. I'm DONE with "progressives" and "liberals" who REFUSE to think about the consequences for poor folk

I've explained it until I'm hoarse, but it matters not how your proposed policies HURT people like me.

None of you actually give a damn, because you're sooooo convinced that you're right.

To hell with it.

DEAL with the charges of elitism, because it fits.

[Roon]

20. I live on $789.00 a month

I wouldn't call me an elitist. But you are right to be angry,don't get me wrong.

[bobbolink]

21. I would love to have that much.

"Elitism" in this case means not considering those who are hurt by "popular" policies.

[Roon]

23. No, I didn't say a week

I said a MONTH. 400.00 of that goes to rent.

[bobbolink]

25. Where did I say "a week"?????

I get much less than that a month, 'K?

No rent, though, as I live in my car.

Does it matter?

[Roon]

31. No, it doesn't matter

I will just let it go as that...

[bobbolink]

33. Thank you for your honesty. At least you admit to a lack of compassion,

rather than playing games with it.

NOW you know why so many poor folk have given up on politics.

So don't cry when you find out how many voters gave up.

YOU are part of that.

[Roon]

34. Nope

High gas prices will do only good for this planet.

[bobbolink]

35. absolutely -- it will rid all of you elitists of the scum you've come to despise.

[Roon]

36. Yep!

[blindpig]

39. Nice

how nice of you...

[Roon]

40. Explain something to me...

How does someone with full blown aids become an elitist?

[Roon]

41. Hello!! Hello!! is anyone home?

[blindpig]

42. And what's that got to do with the price of tomatoes? n/t

[Tesha]

43. If the government wished, it could subsidize fuel for the poor; gas pices could then be hiked...

dramatically (by taxes) to encourage conservation.

But the government doesn't wish.

Tesha

[bobbolink]

44. ORRRRR, we could do what made sense during the Depression and WWII --RATION!

Yes, RATION precious resources. That way, poor folk would have the same share as the affluent. BUT, the big gas guzzlers would have to either scale back, or drive smaller cars.

BUT, you see, we don't want to actually make sense anymore. We don't want to do what's practical and fair.

No, it's ever so much better to PENALIZE POOR PEOPLE.

Then whine because you don't think poor people support your candidate.

THINK--it only hurts for a little while.

[Tesha]

46. If "THINK" was directed at me, I believe you're misinformed (and perhaps deliberately offensive).

If "THINK" was aimed at the universe in general, well, then
"Nevermind!".

Tesha

[bobbolink]

47. No more than "you" was aimed at you personally. YOU is both singular and plural.

It's so frustrating that the way to do this has already been tested and proved, many years ago.

Yet, we (you see... I"M INCLUDED IN "WE", AS I WAS ABOVE, BUT YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT), WE choose still to penalize poor folk.

There doesn't need to be any subsidizing of gas for poor people.... that means one more program that gets cut, the "stamps" or whatever get hung up in the mail, and poor folk lose out once again.

RATION. It worked before, it can work again.

[Tesha]

50. (Thanks for the clarification.) The advantage of a tax-and-rebate over rationing...

...of course, is that we get to use the tax revenues to
fund infrastructural improvements that could wean more
and more of the nation off of liquid fuels.

For example, we might build transit systems (electric
and LNG buses, LRV, heavy rail, whatever is most
appropriate) within many more communities. And we
might build TGV-class intercity passenger railroads
that, at least on the coasts, could replace most
inter-city air travel. We could also rebuild a
more-functional intermodal rail syste for freight.

Rationing throttles down usage very effectively, but
takes no benefit. And the rich would probably just
buy ration coupons.

Taxataion-plus-rebates eases the load on the poor
while helping us prepare the way to thoroughly
"kick the oil habit".

Tesha

[bobbolink]

52. Yes, and poor people, once again, are the hardest hit.

but that doesn't matter, as long as "tax revenue" is up.

:cry:

[Tesha]

53. Why do you think the poor "are hardest hit"? (NT)

[bobbolink]

55. Do you know the difference between "regressive" and "progressive" taxes?

Do you understand that all this "tax break" stuff is directed toward the affluent?

[Tesha]

56. Sure; do you know what it means to rebate the tax back to the poor consumer?

It could even be done with (say) an EBT card if
we actually wanted to think creatively about this.

Tesha

[bobbolink]

57. Are you aware that plenty of poor people never GET tax rebates?

Like me?

Are you one of the lucky ones who got the "stimulus" rebate this year?

I didn't... I"m on SSI, and we get passed over!

The same with the rest of it.

What about homeless people like me---without even a damned address? Where do we get a "card"????

I live in my car. Further taxes on gas make life impossible for me.

Does that matter?

RATION the damned stuff--then You are limited the same as I am, instead of more discrimination.

[Tesha]

58. Several points:

o Clearly you have internet access, perhaps via a public library.
An EBT system could reach you there (or wherever it is that
you're "speaking" to me from).

o You're an "outlier". It's tough to include all possible outliers
within any given system and, frankly, the fact that a system
can't cover 100% of the cases (and only covers, say 99.9%
of the cases) *IS NOT* a reason not to go forward when the
issue is as urgent as the situation around liquid fuels (and
global warming) is becoming.

o The "Perfect" is almost always an enemy of "the good".
This is another way to state principle #2 above.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Tesha

[bobbolink]

59. "I'm sorry" No, you're not. Don't misuse a very important phrase.

Ever heard of protecting the most vulnerable?

No, because you want to protect YOUR right to use as much oil as you wish, rather than to limit your own intake with RATION.

Thank you so much for letting me know I'm disposable.

I'll keep this post of yours, so people on DU who think "progressives" are so caring, can understand just how deep that goes.

[Tesha]

61. No, I'm genuinely sorry a solution can't be all-encompassing.

But it can't. Real solutions *ALWAYS* involve compromises
and it is not in society's interest to see us accept a
clearly sub-optimal solution (rationing) just o that you
can continue living in your car.

Too often, Democrats *FAIL TO DO ANYTHING* because they
can't come up with a plan that does everything and per-
fectly satisfies every constituency.

The correct action here is to separate the problem of
you living in your car from the transportation problem.
If my tax-and-rebate plan makes it impossible for you
to continue living in your car (although I still can't
see why that's the case), then let's arrange for society
to provide you with housing. Or a job. Or mental care,
if that's what you need to *GET* and retain housing
and a job.

But don't call for us to not use the best available
solution to the transportation problem just because
it doesn't make it easy for you to keep living in
your car.

And yes, feel free to save this post. If you ever get
the help you need, you can look back on this years later
and let me know if I was giving you good advice or just
handing you shit.

Tesha

[bobbolink]

64. "Handing me shit" That's a good description.

You've accepted that there will be much suffering, so it continues.

Blame the victim.

Good going, "liberal".

You must have it, so have the last word.

Your superior tone demands it.

Good bye.

[blindpig]

65. But what of the vunerable in the meantime?

There's an awful lot of folks on the ropes, the so-called working poor, the beaten down working class really, can hardly afford to put gas in the car for work and put food on the table. And for folks in bobbolink's situation, have you any idea how miserly an SSI check is?

Rationing, besides being more fair would send a message to the better off, that they are just as vunerable to the machinations of the capitalist as anyone else.

The middle-term solution would be too nationalize the oil companies.

[Tesha]

66. If Congress and the President wished, we could have a tax-and-rebate plan...

...in law by January 21st of next year. And it could
probably be up-and-running three to six months later.

A rationing system (such as advocated by bobbolink)
wouldn't be operational any faster; they depend on
creating the same sorts and scales of Federal
bureaucracy and there's no way the Chimpster
will support either my plan or bobbolink's.


> The middle-term solution would be to nationalize
> the oil companies.

I don't disagree; I think there's a lot to be said
for that idea as well. Then we could divert their
profits into shifting people away from oil, much
as I'm advocating with my aggressive tax-and-rebate
program.


And the vulnerable in the meantime? Well, until at
least January 21. 2009, they can be sure they'll keep
getting screwed. After that, it's uncertain...

Tesha

[China_cat]

8. It's nice for places that have decent public transportation.

Here in Charleston, if you aren't going to a tourist location you'll hear "you can't get there from here". You'll have to take a taxi or walk if you don't want to drive. Or if you are handicapped and not already downtown. (Which is a nightmare for anyone in a wheelchair or scooter...trees growing out of the middle of the sidewalk, etc)

I'd love to have a better public transportation system.

[Tesha]

62. Here are a few thoughts:

o Zipcars, preferably going towards electric cars
for local trips.

o Bicycles, scattered around the city to be widely
vailable on either a "free" (Danish?) model or
the very-inexpensive French (Parisian) model.

o Build up public transit using taxes.

o Discourage far-flung suburbs, encourage urban development
or suburban "clustered" development.

Tesha

[Warpy]

13. Very little is all good or all bad

and $4.00/gallon gas in areas that have any mass transit, at all, will result in cleaner air as people leave the car at home and take the bus/train.

In my own state, it has ensured that Richardson is being seen as a visionary for getting commuter rail up and running, instead of the money waster he was accused of being when gas was under $2.00.

Unfortunately, it also means double digit inflation at the supermarket and it means that people without mass transit are starting to wonder how much more of it they can take and still manage to eat. It is very hard on a large number of people in this country.

The one thing I haven't seen yet but expect to see is the "stolen" monster truck or oversized SUV torched for the insurance money to pay off the loan balance. It's coming. It's just not here yet.

[SammyWinstonJack]

14. Sure thing and screw eating, too!

:eyes: Why is it so hard to understand that the price of oil isn't just causing pain for people who drive their own vehicles? It ain't rocket science. The price of oil causes everyone who is close to the edge, pain. And some will even be pushed over the edge.

[bobbolink]

45. Oh, really? So, I have NO Pain, because I "drive my own vehicle"????

What planet do you live on?

[Tesha]

63. We could, of course, choose to tax the hell out of gasoline and...

subsidize the fuel used by actual truckers who deliver goods
and services.

Tesha

[otherlander]

51. Yes, it will be.

[dkf]

2. If we could expand public transportation throughout the country

it would be a wonderful thing.

I did notice that my traffic has been lighter recently. :)

[shanti]

3. same here in sacramento

i ride the light rail daily and have seen a marked increase in ridership.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

6. My dear Roon!

The same thing is happening here in Los Angeles:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-pennywise9-2008may09,0,5598202.story

:hi:

[Roon]

12. Hi Peggy!

I thought it was my imagination at first..but this proves it.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

7. Southern California, too

I had to ride buses across Orange County the other day when I took my car to my mechanic. The buses were really crowded, standing room only, and at some stops the driver refused to take on more because maximum capacity had been reached. Unfortunately, in SoCal, there aren't enough buses at most bus stops every hour and some of the routes don't connect. Also, there are no transfers; you have to pay $1.25 for each connection. And I suspect that bus fares will soon be going up.

[KamaAina]

38. Ay, there's the rub

The buses were really crowded, standing room only, and at some stops the driver refused to take on more because maximum capacity had been reached.

Ours in Honolulu are already so bad that I have had to abandon my nearby bus stop for one a few blocks away, simply because those buses aren't already jammed like the NYC subway by the time they reach me -- yet. :scared:

[Initech]

54. We could have built a train station in my neighborhood.

But the fucking NIMBYs voted against it and instead voted to widen the freeway. Which is a dumb fucking move because - there is no available space to do so, the freeway is already jammed at all times of the day, and more construction will fuck it up even more, and will use TONS more resources to do so. :mad:

[Ilsa]

9. I like what they did in downtown London: SUVs have to pay a special

fee for bringing their big vehicle into the center of the city. I think it's about $50 a day (25 pounds) to enter the "congestion zone."

[bean fidhleir]

37. The problem with "penalty taxation" is that it's disabling to the poor but chump change to the rich

But that's the first thing most politicians go for, since they get to spend the extra money and they're among those for whom it's chump change (if they don't go ahead and exempt themselves altogether).

A fair system would be a rota: if your licence ends in 1 or 2, you can come in on Monday; 3 or 4, Tuesday. Etc. If you come in on any other day, your car is impounded and you don't get it back til your day the following week without, e.g., a chitty attesting to true extenuating circumstances. So if your day is Monday and you drive in on Friday, you're only on foot through the weekend. But if you drive in on Tuesday, you're on foot through the week.

[azureblue]

10. Wait til the public

finds out that the US Department of Defense is the largest consumer of fuel in the world, and they start to connect the dots between lack of fuel and war time price gouging...

[RC]

15. That could take a while.

People just can't wrap their heads around how little distance a tank, or any armored vehicle can move on a gallon of fuel. Sometimes it's not so much MPG, but GPM
To give you an idea...
http://www.g2mil.com/abramsdiesel.htm

Military aircraft ar not built for fuel efficiency either

[Billy Burnett]

17. Ridership is up in Miami-Dade. What did the county do? Cut the budget and busses and routes. eom

[mnhtnbb]

18. Buses in Chapel Hill, NC are fare-free. The University helps subsidize the city buses.

Parking is a major problem in town and the University agreed to subsidize the buses so they could do away with fares several years ago.

[Blue Belle]

19. Amtrak is filling up too...

I tried to book a seat for this weekend and nearly all the trains were full! I hope they'll start adding more trains to the schedule.

[thatsrightimirish]

22. It is good news

But I hate being on crowded buses! Ever been on MUNI?

[Exultant Democracy]

24. bring on the $8 a gallon gas. I have no clue how I will afford anything

but might just save the world. Shoot people will start eating locally and the long supply line to China may put walmart out of the robber baron business.

[bobbolink]

26. And all the dead USians, ---would that matter to you????

[Exultant Democracy]

27. What are USians?

[bobbolink]

28. I'm sure you can figure it out. And good job on ignoring the question.

[Exultant Democracy]

30. It is an unfamiliar term sorry, but as for any deaths we don't have a choice about peak oil

it will come some day perhaps in 50 years. What Bushes total mess in the middle east caused is a false peak oil situation. Either way people are going to die and of course since there will be more people in 50 years more people would die.

This leads us to the other important factor to consider the environment. In 50 years we will be far beyond the tipping point, and run away global warming worse that has been progressing exponentially faster then any natural warming mean game over for most everyone.

We are oil junkies and as with any addiction withdraw is a bitch. And I am sorry if you are feeling the pinch I know I am.

[bobbolink]

32. Thank you for your "progressive" compassion.

I'll have my death announcement sent to you.

I'm sure it will matter.

[aikoaiko]

29. I knew the price of gas was getting high when I saw more White residents using the bus in Savannah

If it were a little more convenient or gas was a little more expensive, this white guy might too.

[LanternWaste]

48. DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) has experienced a 16% growth in ridership over the past year.

As reported on local news last night, DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) has experienced a 16% growth in ridership over the past year.


One of my co-workers and I have been car-pooling for the past nine months.

We've had offers over the past two weeks to enlarge our pool and include two more co-workers who live within a three mile radius of he and I. Six months ago we would've laughed them off (because he loves to smoke a joint on the way to work and I'm cool with him doing it), but now we're seriously considering it now as it cost over $50.00 to fill up his Camry.

[MoeHayNow]

49. Wish I had the option

Michigan...built on the failing auto industry...has got to be one of the worst places in the U.S. for public transit.

[Initech]

60. Give you an idea of how fucking retarded Orange County (CA) is:

- We have an airport (SNA) that has reached capacity and will exceed it in the near future. They could have turned the abandoned military base in Tustin into an airport that would have near-completely solved our transportation problems for decades. Instead they voted to turn the military base into another fucking shopping mall.

- We vote against light rail expansion in favor of freeway expansion when there's no room to do so. Hell, the expansion of CA-241 was going to run through a wildlife preserve. We also voted to widen one of the most heavily-trafficked, overly polluted freeways in the country.

- Dana "Taliban" Rohrbacher is our 3 term Congressional representative. :grr:

Yeah, most of the light rail riders are clearly absent from this area.