KS archbishop tells Goveror Sebelius to stop taking communion

[proud2BlibKansan]

Sebelius draws a church leader's rebuke
By FINN BULLERS
The Kansas City Star


Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius should stop taking Communion until she repudiates her support for the “serious moral evil” of abortion, the Catholic archbishop for northeast Kansas says.

Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann, of the Archdiocese of Kansas City in Kansas, also criticized the governor Friday for her recent veto of a bill imposing new restrictions on abortion providers.

In a column published in the archdiocesan newspaper The Leaven, Naumann called on the Catholic governor to take the “necessary steps for amendment of her life.”

Naumann later told The Kansas City Star that would involve a confession, a public apology and a promise to undo the damage done by her “scandalous behavior that has misled people into dangerous behavior.”

Sebelius spokeswoman Nicole Corcoran said the governor had not seen the column, but said “receiving Communion has not been a problem in the past for her.”

more . . . http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/613716.html

Be sure to read the comments after the article. There are some good ones.

[mcctatas]

1. Why the fuck don't they ever go after all the blood thirsty

death penalty supporters? Or how about anyone who voted for the Iraq War? Somebody needs to point out the blatant hypocrisy of this bullshit! Makes my recovering Catholic head split! :grr:

[PaddyBlueEyes]

2. cause that would make sense

got it! LOL

[Drunken Irishman]

4. Because the death penalty is not canon.

It's up to persona interpretation, where the Catholic Church has unequivocally come out against abortion.

[crimsonblue]

8. I can remember Jesus's sermon's against abortion but

not a thing against harming others or retaliating against others. Totally consistent...

[mcctatas]

9. I know there is a technical difference, but the

Church has come out stronly against the DP and the war, these subtelties are why I am no longer a practicing Catholic, I could never seem to get it right! (But if you run into my grandma or my great-grandma, please don't tell them;) )

[Drunken Irishman]

13. I know, I agree.

I wish the Church would hold them all together. But they don't, even though the Pope has toned down his rhetoric toward pro-choice Catholics.

[hokies4ever]

21. I'm not Catholic

but I stopped going to church (Protestant-Baptist) once I left my parents home because of what I felt was the hypocrisy of organized religion. It needs to be more about helping your fellow man/woman instead of looking down on other people.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Well I could have sworn there was a commandment about murder?

And when I was in Catholic school, we were taught to abide by the commandments. I left the church years ago. Do they no longer tell Catholics to follow the Ten Commandments? :shrug:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

89. The reason its not cannon

is because the word used for murder in the Ten Commandments is different than the words used when describing the death penalty. There is Killing and there is Murder even today we make that distinction:

1) Someone trys to mug you, you get the weapon from them and in defense kill them
2) YOu go stab someone to take their wallet

one is murder one is not.. In a similar light capital punishment is not, biblically speaking, murder. All the same its pretty clear that a governmental capital punishment is not *required* and thus if it can be avoided (like in an organised society with prisons) it should be..

[jakefrep]

132. Because only the Church hierarchy can practice "cafeteria Catholicism"

The Church doesn't seem to want anybody who doesn't accept without question 100% of its teachings.

Their attitude anymore seems to be: "Don't agree with us? Fuck off!" not "Come in and at least hear us out"

[NewHampshireDem]

3. Why doesn't the Pope or someone step in and stop this nonsense?

I'm not a practicing Catholic, so excuse my ignorance, but isn't there some kind of chain-of-command here? And, if so, why hasn't someone with some brains in the Catholic church squashed these attention-seeking hypocrites who are selectively using Church doctrine to score cheap political points?

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Interesting comment posted following that story at the link

"Naumann kept parochial school kids from using tickets they had been given to see President Clinton."

I searched but found nothing. Sure would like to know more about this.

[JerseygirlCT]

39. The Pope

Is all for this nonsense. This is one of the most conservative popes in recent history.

I wouldn't look for anything enlightened there.

[JackRiddler]

69. "Somebody" would have to be Martin Luther since the Pope IS this nonsense.

Why don't people get a brain and put an end to this 2000-year cancer?

Telling the archbishop to fuck off and stuff his doctrine with the poker already up his ass would be an excellent start.

[pingzing58]

5. Every Catholic is to uphold Civil law. She cannot be forced to go against it by the Bishop. She

needs to seek legal advice from her civil lawyer and seek advice by obtaining a canon lawyer from the Church. They are out there and willing to help. The canon lawyers that work for Kansas are baught and owned by Archbishop Naumann. Don't seek their help, look for others if you need my help, post on this string. Because he thinks he's a Medieval Lord who has complete power over his vassals. It's a Medieval system that has seen its day.

[DeSwiss]

24. Forget the canon lawyers....

...just get the canons.

[NanceGreggs]

6. If I were running things ..

... (which, clearly, I am not), I would notify Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann
that the IRS will be calling on his parishes to collect all taxes due and owing, retroactively.

If you want to stick your nose in politics, you have waived your tax-exempt status as an organized 'religion'.

Separation of Church and State.

'Nuff said.

[hokies4ever]

22. Great point Nance!

The IRS investigated Obama's church because of Rev. Wright's 'political' statements. This seems like a political statement to me as well. The archbishop just HAPPENS to come out against Gov. Sebelius right when it seems like she is one of the frontrunners to get the V.P. nod.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. BINGO!!

Interesting timing, eh?

[AngryOldDem]

126. This is really nothing new.

Neither is the suggestion to pull tax-exempt status from churches that like to see how close they can come to interfering with politics yet still keep their squeaky-clean moral high road intact.

Ever notice how these bishops always seem to go after the high-profile Catholic politicians? It's part grandstanding and part using the Eucharist as a political tool. I doubt Christ would approve of such a tactic.

And here is a perfect example of the double-standard the bishops show toward politicians. A few years back, that fine, upstanding Catholic Rick Santorum endorsed Arlen Specter, who is pro-choice, when Specter was in a run-off with another pro-life candidate. Now -- I ask you. Shouldn't the bishops have taken Santorum to the woodshed over his endorsement? They didn't. Either it's enforced all the way down the line or it isn't. Otherwise, it is exposed for what it is, which clearly puts it in the political rather than theological realm.

Churches cannot continue to have it both ways. Pay to play. Pure and simple.

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. Santorum gets a free ride over that miscarried fetus

He took the fetus home and had his kids 'bond' with their 'sibling' before it was buried.

That gives him pretty much free reign in the eyes of the church to do whatever he wants for the rest of his life on earth.

[smaug]

26. Precisely - this is deliberate interference in the political life of Kansas by a religious figure

So, the IRS should immediately strip the diocese of its tax exemption. The local counties (I'm assuming they are responsible in Kansas for local property taxes as they are in my state) should immediately notify all churches in the diocese that they are to be assessed and taxed. In Arkansas, property taxes provide for a significant portion of local public school funding, so that would be a double blow.

Now, archbishop, by paying taxes, you are then entitled to issue political statements. Oh, btw, you'll now be liable for federal income tax, and I believe having domicile provided and a car, driver, etc., counts as income. And, you are *personally* liable for those taxes.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

117. so...on matters where politics and religion cross

the church should just STFU? So, what about the churches preaching tolerance and giving to the poor...those are political as well...

sP

[crimsonblue]

7. two words to the archbishop....

fuck off. If the Catholic Church really cared, they would excommunicate all pro-choice advocates. Either grow a pair and do what their religious bylaws stipulate, or STFU!

[pingzing58]

11. We are in the world but not of the world. Rome proposes Anarchy but that is not our way. Think.

[crimsonblue]

14. i'm thinking perfectly clear..

Rome and religion need to stay the hell out of politics and government. If Rome really cared about preventing abortion, they would advocate safe sex practices.. but I guess you don't need safe sex when you're a priest molesting boys....

[pingzing58]

17. Absolutely. No Theocracy here has never worked historically and can safely say

never will. Power corrupts and supreme power corrups supremely.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. If they really cared about protecting kids,

the Catholic church would do something about the pedophile priests.

[LTR]

10. Naumann is a big time pro-lifer

The Archbishop sits on the Committees on Pro-Life and on Marriage and Family Life within the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, as well as Kenrick-Glennon Seminary Board of Trustees. He is also Chairman of the Kansas Catholic Conference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Fred_Naumann

[bluestateguy]

12. Thank God this woman is governor

She should turn the tables and encourage this church to leave Kansas.

[crimsonblue]

15. The power vaccuum would be filled by the even crazier fundy groups...

Like Rev Joe Wright's former church in Wichita. (no, not Jeremiah Wright.)

[tpj317]

43. Seriously...

She does not accept Church teachings, she has every right to believe and live as she pleases. Yet, so does the Church. I don't understand, I really don't. Since she rejects Church teaching and Church authority, then she is really only marginally Catholic at best, so why doesn't she just go shopping for a Church that doesn't care what she believes?

[Beausoleil]

54. Neither you nor the archbishop is her judge

so who are you to proclaim that "She does not accept Church teachings", "she rejects Church teaching and Church authority, then she is really only marginally Catholic at best"? It is very disengenuous of you to declare yourself judge of this woman, whom I presume you do not know. This is how fundamentalists operate.

It is very obvious, however, that the archbishop has a bit of a moral dilemma in interfering with a political issue while living a tax-exempt life. I would relate it to the epidemic of moral hypocrisy in the Church. I would also like to see any statements by this clergyman denouncing any individual Catholic who is pro-death penalty, pro-torture or pro Bush's war. That is the point here, the moral hypocrisy of the Catholic leadership, not whether the governor of Kansas is a good Catholic, which is really none of our business.

[tpj317]

57. She is for abortion, and refused to either change that position

or to at least refrain from receiving Communion as requested by her spiritual leader, her Bishop. It does not take one to be an angel to realize that you cannot rightly claim to be Catholic, while ignoring Catholic teachings. It is like saying one is an artist, yet has never once ever created any art of any kind. The Bishop is to be concerned no only for her soul, but the many other souls under his charge.

I am not judging her soul, I am judging her actions...just as we all do.

[LeftyMom]

140. If adherence to Humanae Vitae were required to be Catholic

Parishes across the country would be empty- Catholics use birth control at the same rate as other Americans.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

95. Ummmmm

- so who are you to proclaim that "She does not accept Church teachings"

The church teaches abortion is wrong, she rejects that...

- It is very disengenuous of you to declare yourself judge of this woman, whom I presume you do not know.

If you're a member of an organization and you reject both the teaching and leadership you are only a marginal member

- It is very obvious, however, that the archbishop has a bit of a moral dilemma in interfering with a political issue while living a tax-exempt life.

No more so than when members of other non profit like Planned parenthood who are both exempt from taxes and receivers of federal money chime in on the same issue.

[Bill McBlueState]

64. This is a good point, really

If every Catholic who disagreed with even a single point of Catholic doctrine would leave the church, that would do far more to lessen that medieval institution's grip on the Western world than anything else I can think of.

[Book Lover]

77. Teachings or teaching?

I would say that conflict, public or private, with just one out of the entire body of the church's teachings doesn't constitute grounds for excommunicating her. (yes, yes, yes, I know the bishop has not said anything about actual excommunication. But that is what I hear you advocating: she should be publicly identified as an ex-catholic because of her public stance on abortion.) Am I misunderstanding you, or taking your position too far?

[tpj317]

143. Let's see what the Pope says:

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE (Reuters) - Pope Benedict on Wednesday warned Catholic politicians they risked excommunication from the Church and should not receive communion if they support abortion.

It was the first time that the Pope, speaking to reporters aboard the plane taking him on a trip to Brazil, dealt in depth with a controversial topic that has come up in many countries, including the United States, Mexico, and Italy.

The Pope was asked whether he supported Mexican Church leaders threatening to excommunicate leftist parliamentarians who last month voted to legalize abortion in Mexico City.

"Yes, this excommunication was not an arbitrary one but is allowed by Canon (church) law which says that the killing of an innocent child is incompatible with receiving communion, which is receiving the body of Christ," he said.

"They (Mexican Church leaders) did nothing new, surprising or arbitrary. They simply announced publicly what is contained in the law of the Church... which expresses our appreciation for life and that human individuality, human personality is present from the first moment (of life)".

Under Church law, someone who knowingly does or backs something which the Church considers a grave sin, such as abortion, inflicts what is known as "automatic excommunication" on themselves.

The Pope said parliamentarians who vote in favor of abortion have "doubts about the value of life and the beauty of life and even a doubt about the future".

"Selfishness and fear are at the root of (pro-abortion) legislation," he said. "We in the Church have a great struggle to defend life...life is a gift not a threat."

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0956318820070509

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. If every Catholic who is pro choice left the church,

there wouldn't be many Catholics left.

[mmonk]

158. As someone who hasn't left but doesn't follow the Bishops,

why bother? Maybe she is like me. Bishops can't rule our lives. If you're not overtly religious, it doesn't matter. Running from church to church doesn't solve anything. There will always be something you don't agree with. Stay reality based and brush your shoulder off I say.

[Zynx]

71. The Catholics are hardly some small institution you know.

[struggle4progress]

16. Here's Naumann and some reaction in 2006:

U.S. Bishops Adopt Guidelines on Gays
By NEELA BANERJEE
Published: November 15, 2006

... Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann of Kansas City, Kan., said on Monday that .. married Catholics who use artificial contraception should not receive Holy Communion ...

Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, which supports the use of artificial contraception, said the bishops’ policies on sexuality did not offer reliable guidance for most Catholics.

“Heterosexual Catholics, married and unmarried, understand that the responsible exercise of their sexuality includes the use of contraceptive methods that the church forbids,” Ms. Kissling said in a written statement. “Almost no one is looking to the bishops for guidance on contraception, sexuality and law making, and if the bishops continue making pronouncements such as those issued this week in Baltimore, they will find themselves increasingly isolated.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/15/us/15bishops.html

[Richard Steele]

18. When I need help with life's most difficult questions, I seek out a 70yr-old virgin for advice.

NOT

[hokies4ever]

20. LOL!

:rofl:

[DeSwiss]

25. ROFL!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. LOL!

[Cieran]

19. I love when pedophiles lecture people on morality. n/t

[DesertRat]

63. Who are you to accuse Bishop Naumann of pedophilia? n/t

[DeSwiss]

23. I would say that this is a direct....

...politization of the church which stands contrary to all legal requirements in order for the church to maintain their exempt status.

- You wanna talk shit in the political world Bishop? Fine. I say tax the bastards!!!

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

30. You got that...

I think it would take a grand total of one (1) congregation getting its ass handed to them by the IRS to stop this shit permanently. What these asswipes really don't get, is that they're making it harder for Catholics to get elected because it gives the appearance than they have to do whatever the church tells them to do.

[malaise]

28. Damn these religious people are lunatics

Why doesn't he just burn her at the stake?

Looks like pope fascist came with instructions.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. I am sad to see what has happened to the Catholic church

When I was a kid in the 60s, the Catholic church I belonged to embraced social justice causes. The education I received from that church is a large part of why I am an activist today.

We have talked about this in the peace movement. It is amazing how many of us are former Catholics, and point to what we were taught in Catholic school as a foundation for our work today.

[malaise]

33. The church has always been duplicitous

The hierarchy has always sided with oppressors while many priests and nuns have been involved with social justice. I dismissed them decades ago. To hell with all religion.

[leftchick]

41. I have a nun friend

I call her the Peace Nun because of all of her political stickers on her car. She is an old school charity nun, about 70, who still wears a habit. She is just the sweetest thing on Earth! There are a few socially active in the Catholic community, but not many.

[tpj317]

51. Sure, burning at the stake is the same as...

Telling a Catholic to follow Church teachings. Yeah, there the same thing. NOT Sheeesh.

[WA98296]

35. How about the many pedophyle priests do time in prison?

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Couldn't agree more

This archbishop has far more important things to worry about.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. C'mon over to the Episcopal Church, guv! All the liturgy, none of the

Roman hierarchy.

And yes, it surely makes you wonder where the threats against those who eagerly started an immoral war or those salivating over capital punishment are.

Obviously, the most important sin is allowing those uppity women to get the idea that they might be in charge of their own bodies. That and allowing those uppity gays to think they might be real people, too.

[tpj317]

45. Exactly! Leave the Church if you disagree--why stay?

[JerseygirlCT]

53. Well, the ties are hard to break. I can say that from experience

Being (Roman) Catholic is defnitely a cultural thing as well as religious. So I understand that. There's a lot of beauty in it - it's just the whole structure of hierarchy and the patriarchal hierarchy in particular, that really takes away from the good to me. I couldn't stay angry every time I attended Mass!

But sure thing, the Episcopal Church's liturgy would feel quite comfortable to any RC. But its organization is far more democratic, and its outlook much more open and inclusive.

[tpj317]

59. I understand and that's my point. She could easily just walk away

from the Church. She is in no way bound to remain Catholic. The truth is, she is merely a marginal Catholic anyway...living a lie in all reality.

[proud2BlibKansan]

88. I come from a very large Catholic family

I have an uncle who is a priest and a cousin who is a nun. My uncle is a member of a group of priests who advocate for the ordination of women and homosexual rights. He also worked with a group who rewrote the New Testament to make it more gender friendly. He is pro choice. My cousin is a social justice activist who works with the poor. I have no idea what her position on abortion is because we talk about what we consider much more important issues, like feeding the hungry and housing the homeless. But I can report that almost every member of my family, including the ones who are still active in the church, are pro choice. My cousin says we are pro choice and anti hunger. In other words, we were taught to live as Jesus did and make the world a better place, rather than imposing our religious values on others.

The point I am trying to make is that within the church there is much division on abortion and contraception. Since the 1960s, some Catholic leaders have tried to persuade the church to change its position on contraception. There are also many pro choice groups within the church. These are dirty little secrets that zealots like this archbishop don't want non-Catholics to know.

So Sebelius is not alone and for you to advocate she leave the church is a denial of the reality of modern Catholicism.

[JerseygirlCT]

112. I agree.

And good for your relatives!

[tpj317]

127. In disciplinary matters, rules, laws, etc., the Church can and

has changed throughout its nearly 2,000 year history. However, doctrines and dogmas and formal teachings never change. Vatican II changed no teachings, none, zero, zip. It did open the Church to allow more access to the laity...and it did open the faith to more rule changes and such like that. Yet, many people mistakenly think that the Vatican II changed actual Church teachings, it did not. Not even one teaching changed.

All of the teachings that existed before V2 are valid today and will always be valid. The practice and look of the faith has changed dramatically, yet that all falls under operative rules, not formal teachings. As a side note, many Bishops and Priests created all sorts of stuff that was not even in V@, like removing Communion rails, change Church configurations, etc...

[JerseygirlCT]

111. That's far too harsh. I think there's an important idea in the RCC

about the primacy of conscience. That's often forgotten. I truly believe the old men in Rome are the ones perverting and distorting the message of the church with their hatred and misogyny. To stay and fight the good fight is a noble thing for those that can manage it. I couldn't.

At some point, far in the future, we'll hear apologies to women. I don't fool myself that the way the RCC moves, that will happen in my lifetime. The boys club is too strong and too conservative right now.

[Book Lover]

67. self-delete

Nevermind - I see you call yourself an active Catholic.

[Sam Ervin jret]

76. Because change comes best when it comes from within, Because it's our church too

Because we as women have been marginalized in the Catholic Church as they have been throughout the world. When Mary of Magdala was denied her rightful place in history as one of Jesus' students the church lost its way and it needs to be brought back. She was not his wife. Not the mother of his children. And certainly not a prostitute as she has been portrayed in the church for over 1000 years. But something much more devastating to the male hierarchy.

An intelligent, independent women who Jesus trusted, taught and treated as an equal.

The time for might making right is at an end. Just as Moses was never let into the promised land because he used force to get water from the rock so to does all of mankind need to understand that words not war are our only salvation.

[tpj317]

82. I disagree, but there is too much there to even bother to unpack...

[JerseygirlCT]

113. Yes. And I totally support those of you with the stomach to stay

and fight!

I couldn't take the constant anger - nor could I risk leaving my children with the impression that the RCC's anti-woman stance was in any way acceptable.

And... bottom line, I do believe that churches are for people - I don't think God cares at all what church or what religion we ascribe to - only how we care for one another.

[leftchick]

40. Bishop Finn is Opus Dei

I do not know about Naumann.

http://vaticanisti.blogspot.com/2005/09/american-opus-dei-bishops-outed.html

[tpj317]

47. So what? That has nothing to do with this even if he is OD.

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. Sure it does

It means he is in the conservative lunatic fringe of the Catholic church.

[tpj317]

123. Not sure why you think OD is some lunatic fringe, but it is still

is meaningless to this conversation. The Bishop is simply upholding Church teaching, that is hardly an extremist position.

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. Wow. Are you an OD?

I can't imagine anyone, other than the OD themselves, not seeing that it is indeed a lunatic fringe.

[tpj317]

130. Just saw this one. No, I am not a member of OD. However,

I know some OD members and they are some of the best and most moral people I have ever met. They would literally give the shirt off their backs to just about anyone. The truth is, if one does a careful study of what OD is, they would realize that only in this so-called modern world is OD seen as being some sort of fringe group. In the 40s, 50s and 60s (before V2) OD members were simply thought of as being "Catholics." In those days the views of OD were the norm, not the exception. OD believes in following all of the teachings of the faith, in obeying the Pope and in trying to live the faith right in their own personal lives for all to see. Previous to the last 30 years or so OD members were not much different than other faithful Catholics (which during those days were the majority, not the minority). Today, however, things are a lot different in the Church. Something like 80% of all Catholics dissent against a plethora of Church teachings and less than a generation ago that number was likely around 10-20%. There has been a huge falling away from the faith among Catholics over a 30-40 year period, which makes OD seem extreme, when in fact it is the dissenters that are extreme. A study taken not long ago reflected that 70% of Catholics surveyed did not believe in the Real Presence (the existence of Jesus' Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) in the Eucharist--in the 60s that number was 10-20%. Today <10% of Catholics go to confession every year, whereas in the 50s and 60s 80-90% went to confession at least once a year. Huge numbers contracept today, in the 50s and 60s that number was close to nill. Huge numbers divorce and remarry today, a huge no-no in the 50s and 60s and a literal impossibility in the faith. Huge numbers fornicate and live together today, in the 50s and 60s that was close to nill...the list can go on. The point is OD simply holds that the divinely revealed truths held by the Church for nearly 2,000 years are still true, fornication is still a mortal sin, divorce and remarriage is still impossible, etc. Cultural changes do not change revealed truths, no matter how enlightened the culture thinks it is. OD simply follows the real faith...nothing more, nothing less and that is how it was for the vast majority of Catholics just a short 30-40 years ago. If that makes OD a fringe group today, then I think that is a sign of how far the laity have fallen.

Either way, OD has nothing to do with this because the Bishop is simply following Church teachings. I know that in itself seems extreme (just like OD is thought to be extreme today), yet the truth is all Bishops are called to uphold, teach, propagate and defend the faith in its entirety.

[leftchick]

133. Opus Dei is extreme

and reflects nothing of Jesus teachings. I know several current and recovering ODers. In my dealings with them (I am a Liberal Catholic in the Conservative South) The current ODers are no one I want to hang around. They are extremests who shelter their children from the realities of life. And giving??? LOL! The only thing they give is their time to insert their extremest doctrine further in the Parrish. I have been doing our Parrish's Annual Angel Tree program for over ten years and one extremely wealthy OD family has given about a total of 10.00 for a food certificate for a family of 6! They never take any children off of the tree and I suspect it is because they are the children of GASP! Prisoners in the county.

They are cheap fucking warped assholes who would spit on Jesus if they did not recognize him today because they certainly do not adhere the Gospels.

It is very relevant to today because their biggest cause right now is to roll back the progressive changes that Vatican II brought to the church. They are spreading stealthily through the churches and communities around the world with their plague.

Perhaps you need to chat or read what those recovering from their Opus Dei experience have to say....


New book sheds light on Opus Dei

Véronique Duborgel, a 44-year old kindergarten teacher and former Opus Dei supernumerary,
has written a book about her 13 years in Opus Dei, "Inside the Hell of Opus Dei." As recounted
by Susan Bell of the Telegraph (Britain), in her book Duborgel "describes techniques of psychological
isolation similar to those sometimes used by sects, and claims that Opus Dei intrudes into the
most intimate areas of members' private lives, encourages them to inform on each other and
drains their financial resources...she was instructed not to tell family or friends that she was a
member of Opus Dei."

To read the full article by Bell:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/04/nopusdei104.xml



http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-opus-dei.htm

<snip>

Additionally, Opus Dei undertakes charitable missions in poor communities and countries. However, unlike most modern Catholic thinking, Opus Dei believes that a charity’s purpose should relieve suffering and bring others to Christ. Modern Catholic thinking of missionary purpose is merely to relieve suffering, and also to respect the religious beliefs or lack thereof of those being helped. In Opus Dei, charity means little if it does not also not include the message of Christ.

Many Catholics believe that creating Opus Dei as a personal prelature represents the relative conservatism of the Pope, and the continued support by Pope Benedict is spiraling Church beliefs backwards. Some consider Opus Dei fascist, elitist and secretive. Opus Dei refutes charges of elitism and secrecy. However, many organizations have sprung up to help those recover from participation in Opus Dei, and these organizations tend to have a deprogramming spin, similar to many cult recovery organizations. There are accusations that Opus Dei practices mortification far more than they claim and separates initiates from their family members who are not Opus Dei participants.

For many Catholics, Opus Dei is an unfortunate organization, with some good guiding principals, yet leaning too far toward conservatism. Often, American Catholics find most teachings of Opus Dei represent extreme right thinking, something that they would like to see removed from the Church.


This is my favorite! Book Banning. I am sure Jesus would love this.....

http://www.odan.org/index.htm

http://www.odan.org/forbidden_books.htm

Index of Forbidden Books

Introduction

Opus Dei controls the information that members of the organization have access to. For example, members must ask permission of their spiritual directors before reading any book, even if it is required reading for a university course. The director checks the title against a list which is usually kept under lock and key in the Director's office.

This list is based on one that was used by the Roman Catholic Church until 1948 (see link below for the 276-page list). Though the Catholic Church has abolished the list, Opus Dei still uses it and has added even more books to it.

Some of the authors on the original list include Victor Hugo, Immanuel Kant, Honoré de Balzac, John Locke, Rousseau, Voltaire and Emile Zola.

ODAN has heard many stories from former members about the Index of Forbidden Books, including the addition of new authors to this list; for example:

[tpj317]

134. Pure and utter nonsense...

Right out of the gate I understand you better because you refer to yourself as a liberal Catholic, there is no such thing. A person is either a Catholic, or they are not. The faith is not a pick-and-choose faith, it is not a social club, it is not a means to get one's own personal faith choices affirmed.

Would you say the office of the Papacy is Biblical and based in Christ?
Would you say that caring for the sick and poor is Biblical and based in Christ?
Would you say obedience to Church teachings given by Christ is Biblical and based in Christ?
Would you say confessing to a Priest is Biblical and based in Christ?
Would you say the Priesthood is Biblical and based in Christ?
Would you say the office of Bishop and Deacon are Biblical and based in Christ?
Would you say spreading the Gospel is Biblical and based in Christ?
Would you say all of the seven sacraments are Biblical and based in Christ?
Would say attendance at weekly Mass is Biblical and based in Christ?
Would you say seeking peace is Biblical and based in Christ?
Would you say loving your neighbor is Biblical and based in Christ?

Well all of those items ARE Biblical, they are based in Christ and they are just a slight portion of what the Church holds and OD follows all of that--every bit of it. OD is tied completely to Christ through Mary and the Saints and to all of the works Christ calls us to do. Anyone telling you differently simply has no clue.

[leftchick]

138. oh my

did you take a wrong turn and end up here?

:rofl:


your OD colors are showing

:rofl:


Go and do your Corporal Mortification .



Corporal Mortification in Opus Dei

Corporal mortification is regularly practiced in Opus Dei. It is perhaps one of the most startling aspects of Opus Dei life for people outside the group. Many of the practices of corporal mortification were at one time more regularly practiced within the Church; however, due to modern psychology and thinking, the practices which inflict pain are sometimes considered to be counterproductive to one's spiritual development, as they can easily lead to pride and an unhealthy attitude toward one's body.

Some acts of corporal mortification may be helpful in checking the desires of the flesh, such as fasting. However, in Opus Dei, especially for the numerary (celibate) members, all of the practices mentioned below are mandatory if one wishes to live the "Spirit of Opus Dei" fully. The "Spirit of Opus Dei" is the standard of living, as outlined by the Opus Dei directors, for which all truly dedicated Opus Dei members strive. Under the umbrella of the "Spirit of Opus Dei" hide many of the abuses in Opus Dei. The subtle control to conform to the norm is typical in groups which practice mind control; members are "guilted" into conforming, feeling that they must in order to follow "God's will" as it is outlined by the controlling group.

Listed below are the ways Opus Dei numeraries practice corporal mortification:

* Cilice: a spiked chain worn around the upper thigh for two hours each day, except for Church feast days, Sundays, and certain times of the year. This is perhaps the most shocking of the corporal mortifications, and generally Opus Dei members are extremely hesitant to admit that they use them. It is a painful mortification which leaves small prick holes in the flesh, and makes the Opus Dei members tentative about wearing swim suits wherever non-Opus Dei members may be.
* Discipline : a cord-like whip which resembles macrame, used on the buttocks or back once a week. Opus Dei members must ask permission to use it more often, which many do. The story is often told in Opus Dei that the Founder was so zealous in using the discipline, he splattered the bathroom walls with streaks of blood.
* Cold Showers : Most numeraries take cold showers every day and offer it up for the intentions of the current Prelate.
* Meals : Numeraries generally practice one small corporal mortification at every meal, such as drinking coffee without milk or sugar, not buttering one's toast, skipping dessert, not taking seconds, etc. For the most part, eating between meals is not practiced. Opus Dei members fast on the Church's prescribed days for fasting, but otherwise must ask for permission to fast on their own.
* The Heroic Minute : Numeraries are encouraged to jump out of bed and kiss the floor as soon as the door is knocked in the morning. As they kiss, they say "Serviam," Latin for "I will serve."
* Silences : Each night after making an examination of conscience, numeraries do not speak to one another until after Holy Mass the following morning. (They do not say "Good morning" to anyone as they are getting ready.) In the afternoons, they try to avoid speaking until dinnertime. On Sundays, numeraries generally do not listen to music, especially in the afternoons.

Some forms of corporal mortification differ according to your gender, as the following table shows:
Female Numeraries

Male Numeraries

Sleep on boards laid on top of the mattress.

Sleep without a pillow once a week.

May not smoke or enter a bar.

The Founder believed that women had passions that required more discipline to tame.


Sleep on the floor once a week.

Sleep without a pillow once a week.

Allowed to smoke and go to bars with recruits, for the purpose of drawing them closer to Opus Dei.


A former numerary wrote to comment on Opus Dei's corporal mortifications:

"The cilice and disciplines are so foreign to the experience of most people, that they just conclude that Opus Dei is very odd for mandating them. That is true as far as it goes, but there is a more important point to be made. Because of the dangers of masochism, the traditional Catholic teaching on this sort of mortification is that it be done under obedience to a spiritual director. Such supervision in fact exists in Opus Dei, although often authority is entrusted to people who lack requisite maturity and prudence. The real point is that even if the cilice and the discipline are acceptable forms of penance, their use shows that Opus Dei members are NOT ordinary people, are not free agents."



http://www.odan.org/corporal_mortification.htm


They do not follow what Jesus taught they are a cult.

As with any cult follower, trying to get ODers to listen to reason is pointless so I will put you on Ignore.

[tpj317]

139. I am not a member of Opus Dei, yet your irrational and ill informed

fear tells me a lot about you.

[leftchick]

144. your ill informed answers

tell me a lot about you!



la-di-da, la-di-da....... it must be wonderful in your Opus Dei perfect world. :puke:

[proud2BlibKansan]

136. Slavery was accepted also in the past

So were integrated schools, KKK social events, and many other repugnant activities.

When I was a kid in the 60s, our neighbor beat his wife and kids and one night the wife came banging on our door. My dad called the police who said their policy was not to interfere with domestic squabbles. I can still remember the black eyes on that woman and on her 8 year old son, who tried to keep his dad from beating on his mom. Another neighbor drove drunk, hit another car and killed the driver. He found himself a lawyer, didn't lose his license and went on with his life. One day at school a classmate complained his mom had beat him. Our teacher sent him to see the principal, who called his mom and she came up to school and beat her kid in front of the principal, as punishment for telling on her.

Just because it's the way it used to be doesn't make it right or best practice.

An OD group in this area (same one Senator Brownback belongs to I believe) has a school and recently refused to allow a woman to referee a boys basketball game. Because she is a woman and they teach that men are superior to women, their boys do not take directions from women. That is not only lunacy but doesn't even remotely reflect the church's teachings.

Bishops are to uphold the teachings of the church and the governor is upholding the laws of the state. If the archbishop feels this strongly about abortion, he should be lobbying to have the law changed rather than asking the governor to ignore the duties of her position. And as many others have said in this thread, he also needs to be dealing with pedophile priests (I live in this diocese and yes, there are several cases, one at the church I attended as a child) and he should be speaking out against the war and the death penalty.

[tpj317]

137. That was NOT an Opus Dei school, it was

a St. Pius X school.

The things you sighted about days gone by have no relevance to my point. The teachings of the faith never change--doctrines, dogmas and core truths simply never change and that is one of the core things OD follows, that along with trying to teach lay Catholics how to sanctify their lives by doing so right where they are. One does not have to be Mother Teresa to be a Saint and all Catholics in all stations in life are called to be Saints. The examples I sighted were examples of divinely held truths that Catholics today ignore and ignoring those truths does not make them go away. OD is hated because it remains tied to what the Church and Christ has always held and taught.

I am quite sure the Bishop is trying to get the laws changed, but again that is beside the point. In no way is the Bishop preventing the Governor from doing her job--she is 100% free to do whatever she wants. The Bishop is simply calling the Governor to be Catholic or to cease taking Communion. He is not telling her how to vote or anything like that.

[tpj317]

42. Not sure why this is a surprise?

After all, the Church has a right to its teachings and a right to govern those same teachings. The Governor has every right to leave the Church if she does not want to follow the Church's teachings.

Why is this even an issue?

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. And the members of the church have the right to question its teachings

It is an issue because if every pro-choice Catholic left the church, if every Catholic woman who uses contraception left the church, if every Catholic who supports stem cell research and every Catholic who believes homosexuals have the right to marry left the church, there wouldn't be much of a church left.

And there is a precedent for the church to change its teachings. In my lifetime alone, I have seen the church move away from meatless Fridays and women covering their heads in church and Latin mass and Limbo. So yes, the church has changed its teachings. Many many times. So Catholics will continue to speak out and wait for the church to change.

[tpj317]

110. The things you sighted are disciplinary rules of the Church,, they

are not formal and infallible teachings of the faith. Disciplines (meat on Fridays, Priests being able to marry, etc.) can change and have changed. Formal doctrines, dogmas and teachings cannot ever change.

If every person you sighted left the Church would lose about 70% of its Body, a very tragic thing for those people. Yet, the Church would be serving Christ better if that happened and most of those people would eventually come back.

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. So you think priests might one day be able to marry yet the church will never

change its stance on abortion?

I seriously doubt that.

I would be willing to bet that abortion will be tolerated by the RCC long before they allow women to become priests.

[tpj317]

124. Without doubt...

There are many married Priests in the Church today. Those Priests came from other denoms and were accepted into the Church as Priests even though they are married (they have to promise to remain chaste and to also promise to never to remarry if their spouse passes). Further, in the early days of the Church there were married Priests. Celibacy has always been a discipline, not a doctrine or dogma.

As for abortion, it has always been definitively held as being an intrinsic evil and has always been held even in the early Church as breaking the commandments and as being a very grave sin. There is no valid comparison between abortion and married Priests. Priests might one day be allowed to marry, aborting life will always be a mortal sin.

[KansDem]

44. KansDem tells KS archbishop to go to the Hell of his cult's making...(nt)

[SoCalDem]

46. Sibelius tells archbishop to quit molesting altar boys

:rofl:

[tpj317]

48. Sure, she might say something like that. So what? That changes

nothing.

[FredScuttle]

49. At what point does this qualify as harassing and intimidating a public official?

This clown is just a couple steps away from Fred G. Phelps and his lovely family from Westboro? There is no question or mystery as to what Archbishop Neanderthal is attempting with this filth.....he is whipping up the mob, inciting his zombie followers to consider the sitting governor of Kansas as supporting "serious moral evil" and to be dealt with appropriately.

[tpj317]

50. Are Churches free to teach or not?

I wonder, I really do. Do Churches, Temples, etc., in this country, have a constitutional right to freely teach their own doctrines? Sometimes I think people want to take that part our of the constitution. The Governor has many choices. She could leave the Church and join another. She could cease going to Mass altogether and just claim she is Catholic. She could attend Mass and not receive Communion. She could obey her Bishop. She could any number of others things as well.

[FredScuttle]

52. They are free to teach whatever hateful filth they want

but when they step into the public square and apply their insanity to incite violence against elected officials, then it becomes everyone's problem.

If Governor Sebelius were just plain Kate Sebelius from the carpool, then this would be between her and her parish. But she's the duly elected chief executive of the state and this criminal masquerading as an Archbishop should understand that he can't whip up the zombie crowd without consequences.

[tpj317]

56. Nah, he is simply telling her to be Catholic

Politicians are not above Church teachings, just as Churches are not above civil law. Her Bishop is simply telling her to be Catholic, or cease from receiving Communion. Why is that a problem?

When any given Church treats Politicians like royalty, then why should lay-believers follow any teachings of that Church? She is an elected governor, not a Queen and even if she was a Queen, she would not be above Church teachings.

[FredScuttle]

65. It's a problem for many reasons

1) He's a disgusting partisan hypocrite. Where are his diatribes against Senators Brownback and Roberts for supporting the bloody Iraq War? His public fatwas against the Republican representatives who support the death penalty?

2) He is issuing a public statement to his followers to call the sitting governor "evil" for simply upholding the law. As you said, no church in this country usurps civil law and Gov. Sebelius upholds the Constitution. What the Archbishop is doing is tantatmount to inciting on behalf of illegal behavior.

3) That said, I have no problem with his opposition to Gov. Sebelius' stance on a woman's right to choose as it relates to Catholic teaching. However, this is something he needs to do in private, in consultation with her parish. Issuing hateful statements like this in the press make me believe he is less interested in engaging her on Catholic orthodoxy than he is in inciting his zombie flock to rise up against a female Democratic governor in a state that is trending away from the GOP.

[tpj317]

68. He did, several times, try to privately steer the Governor

away from her positions. She refused, leaving him not choice. She makes it a public scandal every time she receives communion. The Bishop had to act, she left him no choice at all.

As for Iraq and the death penalty. I have zero doubt the Bishop stands against both; however, the Church leaves room for the death penalty in its teachings, and it also has a very detailed just war teaching as well...and the JW teachings essentially leave the decision up to the governining civil authorities.

Abortion teaching is crystal clear. It is always morally wrong and can never be supported by any Catholic. Procuring an abortion, or helping to advance the cause of legal abortion, are mortals sins and place the person who does such things at mortal risk.

[FredScuttle]

74. Go sell your crazy someplace else

We're all stocked up here

[tpj317]

75. Not selling, Just posting opinions on the appropriate thread.

[Book Lover]

81. I'm sorry, but not as crystal clear as you assert

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=275x5861#5920

Or do you have information that would contradict theredpen's and Dem Bones Dem Bones's assertions?

[tpj317]

83. ???

[Book Lover]

91. Could you please restate your question using words? Thanks. (nm)

[tpj317]

93. Sorry, I am not sure what you were saying in your last post? Can you

be more clear?

[Book Lover]

97. You said,

"It is always morally wrong and can never be supported by any Catholic."

I posted a thread from our Catholic and Orthodox Group where we were discussing those instances where the Church allows abortion (with a followup Confession, one assumes). I would say your assertion and the conversation in the Group contradict one another. Do you see or not see a contradiction?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

90. Catholic doctrine:

Save the baby, throw away the mother. This happens in catholic hospitals.

Let Daddy raise all those kids by himself. How compassionate. :grr:

[tpj317]

94. Nope: save the baby and save the mother.

[leftchick]

145. bullshit

[JerseygirlCT]

114. Wow. If you really believe that's anywhere near important in the

scheme of "being Catholic", I think you've really missed the boat.

[Neecy]

55. this goes beyond 'teaching'

This is targeting a public official for making public policy for the entire state of Kansas, not just for those who happen to be Catholic. They want to force pro-choice Democrats out of public office and this is a serious challenge to the separation of church and state.

Why is this nutter silent when it comes to Senator Sam Brownback? He's supported a war that's murdered tens of thousands of innocent civilians, destroyed a nation, caused a huge refugee crisis, features the worst war profiteers in our nation's history, and bankrupted our country. That's fine and dandy, but ooooooh, gotta publicly brand the governor (who opposes this war) 'evil'.

Talk about a fucking double standard!

This is all about the Vice Presidency. She's been pro-choice for her entire public career and she's been governor for years and just NOW this is an issue? Bullshit. This is a 'just in case' piece of crap they'll pull out on her like they did to John Kerry. I guess Catholics just shouldn't seek public office anymore at risk of being hounded out of office. I guess they forget the public pants-pooing that went on in 1960 when people were afraid JFK would take orders from Rome - and he broke the back of anti-Catholic bigotry in this country. Too bad it's the Church itself trying to bring it back.

[tpj317]

58. No, not true at all. It is about standing strongly in the faith

that Christ gave the world and telling everyone who claims to be Catholic that they are bound to follow all Church teachings. In no way does this prevent the Governor from doing anything she pleases with the state, it simply means she cannot live a double life...she cannot say she is Catholic while doing anti-Catholic actions in her life. In essence, she has to choose, is her political life number one, or is her faith in Christ. Yet, sadly, either way her soul is a great risk.

[Neecy]

60. huh?

This really does violate the separation of Church and State. But of course you don't believe it exists, given your comments and low post count.

Many Catholics, including everyone in my family, are pro-choice. Are they forced to 'make a choice'? Are they hounded, reviled, and publicly branded 'evil'? Of course not. This is meant to pressure public officials to govern according to Church policy, period. And THAT, my dear friend, is immoral and craven.

[tpj317]

61. Not true at all...

If your Catholic family members were publicly proclaiming their pro-choice position, and if their Bishop/Priest new that, then those clergy would be bound to take action for the sake of the souls of your family members.

In nearly all cases the Catholic clergy does not know who is, and who is not, a pro-choice person. They don't know who is in mortal sin in any way because most Catholics are not public people. Politicians are quite public and they make their faith well known (mainly to get votes), and in this case the Bishop tried many times to privately steer the Governor away from her poor choices, yet she has chosen to remain pro-choice, which caused the Bishop to request that she no longer receive Communion. The most any Bishop can do is excommunication and a denial of the sacraments. Bishops cannot force any politcian to vote any given way or to live their lives any given way, they can only advise, advise, warn, admonish and then finally act.

The Bishop's action is an act of mercy for the soul of the Governor and for the souls under his care. Heaven and hell are real and the Bishop does not want to see any person's soul to be a great risk.

[Neecy]

62. LOL

[FredScuttle]

66. "steer (her) away from her poor choices"?

Your words or the Archbishop's words?

And this "act of mercy" you speak of? Does this involve sprewing up hateful filth like saying a public official embraces "moral evil"?

[tpj317]

70. I think you would agree that murder is a moral evil, yes?

Well, the Church views abortion in a similar way--it is always wrong and can never be supported. Any person procuring an abortion, or working to advance the cause of abortion, commits mortal sin and in the case of the person getting an abortion, that person receives an automatic excommunication.

[FredScuttle]

72. Do you believe abortion is murder?

Do you believe that abortion is the premeditated taking of a life?

[tpj317]

73. Yes!

[FredScuttle]

79. Well, since we have that cleared up

We know that you are insane. :yoiks:

Let's look at your edict from above:

"Well, the Church views abortion in a similar way--it is always wrong and can never be supported. Any person procuring an abortion, or working to advance the cause of abortion, commits mortal sin and in the case of the person getting an abortion, that person receives an automatic excommunication."

That's casting a pretty wide net, don't you think? Does that mean that the administrative staff in the women's health clinic are committing a mortal sin, even though they have nothing to do with the procedure? Do they wear the stain of the sin just because they booked the appointment?

[tpj317]

84. Yes, if they are Catholic and if they are fully aware of Church teachings

regarding abortion and if they work their of their own free will--then yes they are commiting daily mortal sins.

[FredScuttle]

116. Even if they are not directly involved in the "sinful" procedure?

Do you pay taxes? Aren't then, by your insane logic, committing "daily mortal sins" by paying for the wanton killing of men, women and children in Iraq?

10 Hail Marys and a Novena for you, heathen!

[KansDem]

78. Dropping a Daisy Cutter on an Iraqi neighborhood is murder...

So why aren't these "good Catholics" denouncing Bush as "morally evil?"

[tpj317]

86. Bait and switch...interesting...

While I am against the war, I will say that Church teaching in this area allows for the discernment of governing authorities.

[Neecy]

96. There's no 'just war' excuse here

This was an immoral war fought for resources. Have you seen photos of dead Iraqi children? I have. It's a valid question - will you brand Bush as 'morally evil' for starting the war in Iraq?

Funny how much room you'll give to the 'discernment of governing authorities' when it comes to blasting women and children into little bits but none of this 'discernment' applies to Sebelius. Such hypocrisy.

[tpj317]

100. I an not in possesion of the same information Bush has, so I cannot

make the same clear judgment of the situation. I am against the war, but it is impossible for me to say Bush is evil without having all of the information he and the military has.

As for the Governor, it is quite clear (100%) that she has been talked to privately, that she has had it explained to her by the Bishop that abortion is a moral evil and yet she refuses to turn from her position. In her case I have all of the pertinent information, as for the war, I do not. In world war-two all sorts of people, including innocent children, were killed when the bombs fell, yet I know of no-one who claims that was an unjust war. We can easily see that world war-two was tragic and also a just war because we have all of the pertinent data needed to view it that way. That is not the case with Iraq because no matter how much people want to think they hold all of the pertinent data, they don't. We won't know the full truth of this war until many years from now. It could have been for oil, it could have been from a sick and evil George Bush, it could have been based on false assumptions, it could have been for any number of reasons and it also might yet prove to have been just once all of the truths of the war are revealed in history. Wars are more accurately measured by the yardstick of history, then they are while they are still happening. That is why the Church takes a less vigorous stance regarding war, it is so very hard to truly know while the conflict is still going on. Balance, calm spirit, truth seeking and an avoidance of overt emotion reveals truth over time.

[Neecy]

106. uh-huh

So, you claim not to know information that Bush has, but you can state "100%" that the Governor of Kansas has been talked to privately. If it was private, how can you be so certain unless you yourself are Joseph Naumann?

Bush - gee, dunno, might be a good war. Dead children? Benefit of the doubt.
Sebelius - I know all, even 'private' things. Upholding the laws of Kansas. Morally evil.
Neecy - knowing where you came FRom.

[tpj317]

121. Easy, I don't think the Bishop is a liar!

[leftchick]

146. then why was JP II against it?

forget the current nazi. His views mean nothing to most Catholics.

[liberal1973]

151. That's true

Alot of Catholics dislike this current Pope. Yes I believe this Pope was a Hitler youth. That would explain these extremist views.

[tpj317]

157. And a lot of Catholics love this Pope!

[tpj317]

152. John Paul the Great, like Pope Benedict XVI stand against

the death penalty because they are of the opinion that in the modern world, with modern methods of securing criminals, the death penalty is no longer required. That is their personal opinions, which I happen to agree with and so do most Catholics, Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Nuns, etc.

However, no Pope (not even John Paul the Great) can change infallible Church teaching and the Church teaches that the state has recourse to use the death penalty if the authorities determine so.

[Heathen57]

101. You are setting up the reasoning that the Repubs used

in 1960. Catholics should not be in public office because they are required to obey the Vatican rather than the laws of the country.

A public servant, whether he is a postal clerk or the POTUS, are required to take an oath to uphold the laws that pertain to him. A governor is under the same requirements.

If abortion is legal in the state and the governor feels that legislation is either unduly restricting or in conflict of those laws, then it is part of their duty as the holder of the office of governor to veto such action. They went into the job knowing what it entails, and no matter what their religious beliefs are, they shouldn't interfere with the job.

The RCC is completely out of hand withholding a core element from a church member for political reasons. And it is political. By doing so they are trying to enforce their religious ideals onto the rest of the state, county, etc. and that is undue influence in American politics. There are laws against such things, religious freedom or not.

[tpj317]

107. I disagree.

They are not using it for political reasons, they are using it to support the faithful, which they have every right to do. The truth is, Catholics who stand against the faith are an authentic scandal in the Church and the Bishops have begun to see how much damage that causes. Example: The Church says that divorce and remarriage is impossible, yet Rudy Guliani has done that and is also pro-choice, that causes scandal because lay Catholics see it as hypocritical to not hold public people accountable--which means that they should not be held accountable. Cardinal Egan rebuked Rudy Guliani after the Pope's visit for having received Communion during the Papal Mass. He did that to uphold the faith, not to change policy and that is clearly true because Guliani has zero impact on policy of any kind--and he is a republican, not a democrat, so Bishops are not being partisan at all...they are beginning to uphold the faith against public people who claim to be Catholic.

[liberal1973]

150. I disagree

"so Bishops are not being partisan at all" Oh yes they are.:D

This guy Naumann owes a apology to the Governor.

[tpj317]

153. No, the Governor owes a huge apology to the Lord!

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. It is not anti-Catholic for her to honor civil law

And abortion is LEGAL. She would be a sinner in the eyes of the church if she herself had an abortion.

The church also teaches that it is a sin to have sex outside of marriage. Yet many Catholic groups sponsor homes for unwed mothers and provide health care for these women. Are these groups (and the nuns who belong to them) also sinners? I think not.

[tpj317]

108. That is incorrect.

Formal cooperation is a grave sin (mortal). The Governor formally cooperates by advancing the causes of of abortion and by refusing to obey her Bishop in this matter.

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. By your logic, those nuns who care for unwed mothers are also committing a mortal sin

[leftchick]

147. exactly right proud!

it never answers these logical disputes does it?

[tpj317]

155. Not true...it is apples vs. oranges.

[leftchick]

159. now there is a convincing argument!

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. Her job is to represent the interests of all Kansans

many of whom are pro-choice. As a Catholic, surely you realize that she is not sinning unless she herself gets an abortion. But since abortion is legal in Kansas, she would not be doing her job if she imposed the Catholic church's beliefs on the people of Kansas.

[tpj317]

102. A person sins of they

know the teachings of the Church regarding abortion, procure an abortion themselves or directly help advance the cause of abortion, if they do so with full knowledge and full consent of their will.

My feeling all of those points are met by the Governor. She knows the teachings, she is is directly helping to advance the cause of abortion, she is doing so willfully and with full knowledge. That is mortal sin.

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. She is not advancing the cause of abortion

She is respecting the laws of the state of Kansas.

And I call bullshit on your argument. As I asked in another post, are nuns who provide support to unwed mothers also sinners?

[liberal1973]

149. That's a lie

Wow so lying by people like you must be a asset. She is not helping advance the cause of abortion. There is no cause of or for abortion. That is a lie.

[tpj317]

154. Are you kidding?

There are all sorts of groups that fight to advance abortion, to help keep it legal and to help more countries and more people use that sick method of birth control. The Governor stands behind all that evil.

[depakid]

85. Funny how these archbishops seem to have NO problem with support for the Death Penalty

even though it also flies in the face of their dogma.

[tpj317]

87. Actually, I don't know any member of the clergy who supports

the death penalty. Personal supporting or condemnation is not at the same level as the infallible faith.

[proud2BlibKansan]

105. So why are archbishops not demanding that Catholic governors refuse to allow executions?

[tpj317]

109. Because the death penalty is allowed by the faith.

[FredScuttle]

115. "Thou Shalt Not Kill"???

I guess that gets a pass....:eyes:

[tpj317]

122. Nope, not at all. Many people, most actually, do not...

realize that Commandment from the original languages actually means "Thous Shall Not Murder." Think about it, if Christians, Jews and Muslims follow the Commandments (as they are all supposed to do), and if that commandment actually is interpreted as "Thous shall not kill," then it is mortal sin to ever kill for any reason whatsoever. One could not defend themselves if attacked, nations could never have armies, wars could never be fought no matter how righteous the cause, the holocaust should never have been stopped, slaves never should have been freed in this country through a national civil war, etc.

The proper interpretation (finding its roots in the first murder in history, the Cain and Abel events) is "Thous Shall not Murder," which means we should never intentionally take an innocent life--which is precisely why abortion is so bad, it is the taking of the most innocent lives in our midst. War is the same way. If a nation intentionally attempts to kill innocent people, and those innocents are literally being targeted, then that is murder. In Iraq our military is not intentionally targeting innocents, though innocents always die in every war.

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. No it's not

More than one pope has even spoken out against it.

IIRC, it is the 5th commandment. Thou shalt not kill.

[tpj317]

125. Nope, here is what the Church teaches (not my words):

2259 In the account of Abel's murder by his brother Cain,57 Scripture reveals the presence of anger and envy in man, consequences of original sin, from the beginning of human history. Man has become the enemy of his fellow man. God declares the wickedness of this fratricide: "What have you done? the voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. and now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand."58

2260 The covenant between God and mankind is interwoven with reminders of God's gift of human life and man's murderous violence:

For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning.... Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.59

The Old Testament always considered blood a sacred sign of life.60 This teaching remains necessary for all time.

2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: "Do not slay the innocent and the righteous."61 The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. the law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

2262 In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord recalls the commandment, "You shall not kill,"62 and adds to it the proscription of anger, hatred, and vengeance. Going further, Christ asks his disciples to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies.63 He did not defend himself and told Peter to leave his sword in its sheath.64

Legitimate defense

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor.... the one is intended, the other is not."65

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful.... Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life. Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. To this end, those holding legitimate authority have the right to repel by armed force aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their charge.66

Capital Punishment

2266 The State's effort to contain the spread of behaviors injurious to human rights and the fundamental rules of civil coexistence corresponds to the requirement of watching over the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. the primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation. Moreover, punishment, in addition to preserving public order and the safety of persons, has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.67

2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
"If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
"Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.'

Intentional homicide

2268 The fifth commandment forbids direct and intentional killing as gravely sinful. the murderer and those who cooperate voluntarily in murder commit a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance.68

Infanticide,69 fratricide, parricide, and the murder of a spouse are especially grave crimes by reason of the natural bonds which they break. Concern for eugenics or public health cannot justify any murder, even if commanded by public authority.

2269 The fifth commandment forbids doing anything with the intention of indirectly bringing about a person's death. the moral law prohibits exposing someone to mortal danger without grave reason, as well as refusing assistance to a person in danger.

The acceptance by human society of murderous famines, without efforts to remedy them, is a scandalous injustice and a grave offense. Those whose usurious and avaricious dealings lead to the hunger and death of their brethren in the human family indirectly commit homicide, which is imputable to them.70

Unintentional killing is not morally imputable. But one is not exonerated from grave offense if, without proportionate reasons, he has acted in a way that brings about someone's death, even without the intention to do so.

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.

From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.71

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.72
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.73

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.
"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78
The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.
Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority.
These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin.
Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."79

[muriel_volestrangler]

135. "very rare, if not practically non-existent"

meaning that the church opposes the death penalty for any functioning state, such as the USA, which clearly has the ability to lock a dangerous person up for life. Thus any American politician who favours the death penalty is going against Catholic doctrine.

[liberal1973]

148. BS

This "allowed by the faith" is bs. That's just typical hypocritical bs. That faith is corrupt.

[tpj317]

156. YOu don't agree with the faith, fine that is your right. But it is not

BS to say the faith allows for the death penalty. I am quite sure you think abortion should be legal, so the death penalty for unborn babies is okay in your book.

[tpj317]

128. To all

Thank you very much for a robust and respectful conversation. I registered here just yesterday after having been linked to this site from another site carrying this story. I think I have likely said enough, so I am posting my gratitude and thanks for a very interesting talk.

Take care.

[TWiley]

131. I used the "Parental Control" on my Cable Box today

I locked out all those religious channels. I feel much better now having obeyed God. Thank God my children are safe from those wretched beasts.

I wish this could become a national movement.

[DFW]

141. All the good governor needs to do is put on some Mel Brooks

The Inquisition (from "History of the World, Part 1)


The Inquistion, let's begin
The Inquistion, look out sin
We have a mission to convert the Jews (Jew ja Jew ja Jew ja Jews)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right
We're gonna help them see the light
And make an offer that they can't refuse (that the Jews just can't

refuse)

Confess (confess, confess)
Don't be boring
Say yes (say yes, say yes)
Don't be dull

A fact
you're ignoring:
it's better to lose your skullcap than your skull

The Inquistion, what a show
The Inquistion, here we go
We know you're wishing
That we'd go away
But the Inquistion's here and it's here to stay
The Inquistion, oh boy
The Inquistion, what a joy
The Inquistion, oy oy

I was sitting in a temple
I was minding my own business
I was listening to a lovely Hebrew mass
Then these papus persons plunge in, and they throw me in a

dungeon, and they shove a red hot poker up my ass

Is that considerate?
Is that polite?
And not a tube of Preparation H in sight

I'm sitting, plicking chickens and I'm looking through the pickings

and suddenly these guys bring down my balls
I didn't even know them and they grabbed me by the scrotum and

they started playing ping pong with my balls

Oy, the agony
Ooh, the shame
To make my privates public for a game

The Inquistion, what a show
The Inquistion, here we go
We know you're wishing
That we'd go away
But the Inquistion's here and it's here to -

- Hey, Torquemada, whaddaya say?
I just got back from the auto-da-fé
Auto-da-fé, what's an auto-da-fé?
It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway

Skit skat voodely vat tootin de day

Will you convert?
No, no, no, no
Will you confess?
No, no, no, no
Will you revert?
No, no, no, no
Will you say yes?
No, no, no, no

Now I ask in a nice way, I said pretty please, I bent their ears,

now I'll work on their knees!

Hey, Torquemada, walk this way
We got a little game that you might wanna play
So pull that handle, try your luck
Who knows, Torq, you might win a buck!
Alright!

Put it in the car (in the car x2)

How we doing? Any converts today?
Not a one, nay, nay, nay
We've flattened their fingers
We branded their buns
Nothing is working
Send in the nuns!

The Inquistion, what a show
The Inquistion, here we go
We know you're wishing
That we'd go away
So, c'mon you Moslems and you Jews
We got big news for all of yous
You better change your point of views today
'Cause the Inquistion's here and it's here to stay