Am I wealthy?

[bighart]

What do you consider the income level at which one becomes wealthy? I live in rural Mo. and work in sales for a manufacturer. I am high school educated, married with 3 children, two in college one in the work force, and make around $60k a year. I paid roughly $3400 in fed income tax, $1600 in state income tax
and $800 in property tax. My wife does not work outside the home so my income is the only one coming in. We have a $700 a month mortgage payment and utilities average $300 per month. We were not able to save money to put our kids through college so they are attending on scholarships and student loans which my wife and I are repaying for them. We have very little credit card debt and a car payment of $250 per year. With all that we can managed to put back a bit of money every pay day, not a lot by any means, and all our bills are current . So I ask you: Am I wealthy in your opinion?

[devilgrrl]

1. Not even close... in fact your several hundred light years away.

eom

[coriolis]

2. I don't think anybody else can make that estimation for you!

Some of us don't have lots of money but think we are very wealthy. :-)

(is that 250 a year for insurance?)

[Dhalgren]

3. Oh yeah! You are the mega-rich!

You and Gates are prolly big buds...

[whistle]

4. Weath is measured not by income but by ownership, that is net worth

....net worth = total assets - total liabilities


What you OWN minus what you OWE For most Americans the largest asset has traditionally been their homes, but today with the advent of the housing bubble burst even that is threatened. Wealth has always been taxed and now that the housing valuation bust is here people are paying far more tax for their homes and other assets then they should be

[Justitia]

11. Right - "wealth" is not income, it's ownership. If someone made $1 mil, but spent it all

they would not be considered "wealthy", just high earners. They are living paycheck to paycheck - LOL.

I actually know someone in this position. The day he loses his high-paying job, he'd probably need to file bankruptcy as he could not afford his current lifestyle.

And as you said about real estate - I tend to exclude this from what I consider "wealthy" unless someone owns their real estate lien-free and can afford to pay the taxes without a job.

For myself, I consider wealth to be cash and cash derivatives on hand, liquid and readily available.
I know that's a narrow definition to most, but I'm fairly financially conservative by training (accountant).

[whistle]

27. If you are female would you marry me?

[Justitia]

32. LOL - already married, but you are a peach! :)

;-)

[Midlodemocrat]

50. Exactly. The OP earns a good living, not wealthy.

[ananda]

5. wealthy is relative

It depends on what you compare yourself to.

To many billions around the world, you are
very wealthy.

To many Americans, you are relatively poor.

To those who don't measure wealth in terms
of money or income, I couldn't say because
of lack of information.

[leftofcool]

6. In money, no, in other things like family, love relationships........

sounds like you might be very wealthy.

[RB TexLa]

7. Of course

[bighart]

8. I consider myself very wealthy because I have a wonderful wife of 23 plus years and 3 great kids.

Not to mention that someone with my background, very troubled youth first child born when I was still in my teens, making the amount of money I make in this area is almost unheard of. I am very proud of the fact that my home will be paid for in less than 10 more years and we are able to save a bit of money every month. Long hard road but it has been worth every step.

[Captain Sensible]

19. Lucky not wealthy....

....you are happy but happiness is not measured in terms of wealth.

[MercutioATC]

9. No, you're the "real" middle class.

Arbitrary earnings figures don't take into account cost of living, expenses, etc.

For your area and lifestyle, I'd say you were middle middle class (as apposed to lower middle or upper middle).

[endarkenment]

21. Lower middle class.

But 'middle class' is bullshit. There are those of us who have to work for a living and then there are the rich. The rich, if they do work, choose to do so as an avocation. The rest of us work because we have no choice. The endless parsing of ranking within the working class is a diversion intended to divide us into castes that then can be set one against the other. It is a game that works quite well.

[Night_Nurse]

10. By what criteria do you..

measure wealth?

For me, if I have enough to cover my essentials - house, car, food, and some money left to save - I'm comfortable. My essentials are not a McMansion in the 'burbs with an H2 in the driveway, but instead a nice condo with an '07 Toyota in the drive (that gets 40mpg). I got caught up in the trap of consumerism years ago, and wound up in bankruptcy. I've learned since that I can live simply, and be much happier than in the past when I believed that "buying things" would make me happy. No, that just got me into debt, which led to stress and not so much happiness.

I measure my true wealth in the things that money cannot buy: Health, love, family, friends. :-)

[Jim__]

12. Why do you ask?

I think a far more important question is: Am I happy. Unfortunately, in our culture, we seem to confuse wealth with happiness. By everything I know, wealth is not the same as happiness, and is far less important.

[MercutioATC]

15. You can't buy happiness...but poverty definitely weighs on your mindset.

I agree that too much emphasis is put on money and possessions, but it's important not to discount the fact that worrying about bills can make happiness difficult.

[Jim__]

17. From the studies I've seen, money contributes to happiness ...

... but only up to the point where you have enough to take care of your needs. Beyond that, it doesn't seem to help at all.

[MercutioATC]

22. My experience agrees with that.

[Justitia]

13. You sound very comfortable to me, how do you feel about it? -eom

[bighart]

33. I feel very comfortable.

We live modestly but lack nothing we need and very little we want. I would love to be able to take my wife on a nice long, 3 or 4 weeks, vacation, but there never seems to be enough money to do much traveling. We both would like to see Italy, but with the deflation of the dollar I don't see that happening.
Overall we are very content and feel wealthy as neither of us come from families with money.

[Justitia]

36. You've done well keeping down that debt.

And, with your grown children on the back end of the childrearing curve, you've got some breathing room there. Let's hope they will find sustainable employment (enough, at least, to keep them off your payroll, huh? LOL) upon graduation.

Yes, it's not a great time to visit Europe, LOL, but planning is half the fun anyway, so keep planning and dreaming. Italy is nothing short of fantastic and in a bit, most likely within your reach.

The biggest setback we all face is major illness. It can come totally out of the blue and could devastate even the most wealthy among us. We must work for public policy change in this area - illness knows no boundaries and the chronic ones will bankrupt even the "millionaires", I've seen it happen, up close.

Stay healthy and work for change.

Best of luck to you.

[Juche]

14. yes

You didn't mention paying any FICA taxes, which is something that the wealthy tend to get away with since the SS cap is around 95k.

60k is a very decent income, esp in the midwest areas, but not wealthy.

I don't know what I consider wealthy though. I know couples where both are physicians and gross 200-300k a year and I still don't consider them 'wealthy', just upper professional class. I guess to me wealthy is when your capital does all the work for you and you just have to manage it.

How did you manage a $21/month car payment? Is it a model T?

[bighart]

26. My bad. Should be $250 a month

It's on a 2004 Mazda we bought used. Will be paid for in about 8 months.

[Marr]

16. $60k a year and you think you might be considered wealthy? Are you nuts?

You'd hardly qualify as middle class if you were living in a big city. You don't appear to actually *own* much of anything.

This is one of those myths the right wing promotes. They want middle class people to believe they're better off than they actually are, so they'll support things that benefit the wealthy. You are nowhere near wealthy. Wealth is when you make money by having money.

[bighart]

30. I completely disagree.

When all things are factored in I have more than enough to pay my bills every month and put back some as well. I have decent health insurance that includes dental. I have a company funded retirement account and 401k plan. We have plenty to eat and if I lost my job tomorrow with what we have managed to save and the fact that we have avoided heavy amounts of consumer debt I could take a low wage job and we could get by with some minor adjustments to our lifestyle.

I don't live in a big city and the cost of living here is pretty reasonable.

I think too many people get caught in the trap of constantly wanting more.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. Could You Quit Working, Right Now. . .

. . .and survive one year at some semblance of current lifestyle?

That's the question that determines "wealthiness". If one has to make major changes to survive one year with no new income, one is not wealthy. They may be saving enough to get there one day, but if they're not there yet, they're not wealthy.

The Professor

[bighart]

37. If we had zero income we could survive about 3 months on our savings

alone. If I were to cash out my 401k and retirement account we could pay off both our house and the 1 car we are paying on and stretch that much further, probably very close to a year with 0 income.

In all honesty we could cut a few hundred dollars from our monthly expenses by getting rid of non-essentials like satellite TV, cell phones and high-speed internet and stretch our money even further. I figure as long as everyone gets paid on time and we have some left over we might as well enjoy some "luxuries".

[Blue Diadem]

40. For your sake, I hope it never happens to you.

BTDT.

[endarkenment]

43. Then you are one major medical incident away from destitution.

A three month cushion is nothing - it will be gone before you get over the shock of needing it. One year's retirement savings is between 1/10 and 1/20th of what you need to be financially secure.

[Blue Diadem]

39. What if your company goes belly up or decides to dump

your retirement account? If you lose your job, can you afford to pick up the cost of your health and dental insurance?

[bighart]

41. Well if that happens I am screwed in the short term.

I have several friends who are small business owners that have offered me a job with decent benefits recently. I believe that barring major illness or injury if I lost my job I would be able to find another one fairly quickly.

[Marr]

42. Yes, but your question wasn't "am I comfortable", it was "am I wealthy".

You aren't anywhere near wealthy. If you were wealthy, you wouldn't need a paycheck at all.

[endarkenment]

18. The L Curve

http://www.lcurve.org/

The deliberate confusion over wealth and who is 'rich' is all part of the general fucking over us peasants have been subjected to since the triumph of the right starting in 1980.

[InkAddict]

20. Monetarily, you are not wealthy.

Count your blessings daily. There are many of us who have been systematically stripped of any opportunity to amass any savings or wealth(?) at all for what short years are left. My spouse figured it up: We've been outsourced from about $138,000 in income in the past 15 years, the equity in our home and any past/future increases in it's market value against which school loans for our children were leveraged as approved through FAFSA and the lenders and for which the FEDS may dock any future income tax return overages, SS, and garnish wages, the potential for retirement savings MATCHED by an employer, the accumulated whole-life insurance policies purchased by our parents in our infancy and other policies purchased that guaranteed some retirement earnings.

Twenty years ago, had we a crystal ball, we should have sold the home and gone to live in a cave. He's scrabbled through 16 job changes in 20 years in this forsaken "Chicago" economy based on Friedman's Nobel-worthy theories of economy. I have worked all but six years of our marriage when the babies were small and have been luckier to have had a long-term balanced work schedule though earnings and benefits not so much.

Who knows how many years of longevity have been trashed by the ravages of the mental and physical stress our "journey" has caused. Our daughters, their families, and the taxpayers of America WILL be burdened with the care of our last days as well as thousands more who have NEVER BEEN so fortunate; there's just not time enough to recoup the losses that accumulated as we watched the jobs shipped out and cared for a single elderly parent. We're pushing our 60s and barely hanging on by our fingernails to maintain what "society" requires of employable slaves. We could hope to win a lottery, turn to crime (not an option), or simply wait for the triage that's sure to come either violently or by the "consent of the people."

I hope you understand what that means for your situation - a dozen bears/a locomotive is coming up behind you even though your path seems clear now. Hold hands tightly as you move forward because love, expressed often, is the only wealth you really own forever.

[Marr]

23. No follow up from the OP?

Why do I get the feeling that this thread was orphaned when the expected response wasn't received?

[bighart]

31. I have responded to several points made by others here.

[Blue Diadem]

24. To some you may seem to be, but in reality

I don't think you are financially wealthy. How long could you survive financially if you suddenly lost your job and couldn't find another or if you became ill or incapacitated and couldn't work?

[Dorian Gray]

25. No...

Middle Class.....

Kudos on the Credit Card debt. That's awesome! :)

[El Pinko]

28. No. Solidly middle class for your region, but not wealthy.

You'd be scraping just to make ends meet if you lived in a coastal city...

[KillCapitalism]

29. Solidly middle class.

To be rich, I'd say you'd have to find some way to multiply your income ten fold.

$60K is pretty decent for rural MO, but like other have said you'd damn near be in poverty if you lived in NYC or San Francisco.

[Warpy]

35. Not by a long shot

People with $1-10 million in net worth these days are upper middle class but far from wealthy. Entry into the rich man's club of private airports and other separate infrastructure takes over $10 million in net worth, and that number is rising quickly toward $100 million as upper corporate management crowds out the usual old money, invested conservatively.

Old money will gradually reassert itself, IMO, as the more exotic securities that bloated the coffers of the super rich are seen to be worthless pieces of paper backed by bad mortgage loans, but it will be a long process.

In any case, you are just a couple of paychecks away from disaster as you've stated your inability to save. That's not even middle class. That's working class.

Staying away from credit card debt will keep you ahead of the overconsuming Joneses who are up to the rafters in high interest debt, though.

[zanne]

38. $80,000 to $100,000 is what I consider "well-off"...nt

[endarkenment]

44. In the urban northeast 80-100 is not well off.

200+ is comfortable 300+ is well off. 100 is basic middle class for a dual worker multi-kid greater metro region family income. Your mortgage is likely to consume 1/4 of that 100K, for example.

[Lorien]

57. Same in most major cities

in LA you aren't "well off" unless you make over 350K a year. Here in Orlando 250K will make you pretty comfortable-but you still can't afford a large home in Winter Park or Isleworth (homes start at about 2 million in many of the better neighborhoods here).

[zanne]

58. I live in the urban Northeast...

To me, $80,000 to $100,000 is well off.

[endarkenment]

60. "Well off" is massively vague. Here are some facts.

Basic Family Budgets (2 parents 2 children)
Boston: 64,656
New York: 58,656
Washington DC: 61,440

It is important to note that a basic family budget is indeed "basic." It comprises only the amounts a family needs to spend to feed, shelter, and clothe itself, get to work and school, and subsist in 21st century America. Hence, it includes no savings, no restaurant meals, no funds for emergencies—not even renters' insurance to protect against fire, flood or theft.

These family budgets are for the year 2004.

http://www.epi.org/budgetcalc.cfm

[zanne]

61. It all depends on your income.

Yup. It's class thing. Most of the people I know don't have much money. Our homes are our dearest possessions and going out to eat in a restaurant that does not have a drive-thru window is unheard of. So are vacations and swimming pools. That's where I'm coming from. It all depends on the view.

[endarkenment]

62. then you are making mince meat out of the common meaning of words

you of course are free to redefine words to mean anything you want, you just are not going to have meaningful discussions with other people when you do so. Financially well off is not 'barely getting by'.

[Zorra]

45. Some workers on this planet will not make 60K over the course of their entire lifetimes.

I reckon they might consider you rich beyond their wildest dreams.

[endarkenment]

48. Then again they don't have 2,000/month rent/mortgage

But as the dollar continues its collapse, outside of the undeveloped world, our Glorious Big Ass American Life Style starts to look rather shoddy. We just haven't figured out how far down we are going to go before we actually hit bottom. If the free-market fundies have their way, it will be when we reach parity with our peasant-worker equivalents in China and India.

[aikoaiko]

46. If you have to ask........

you know the rest.

[uppityperson]

47. Define "weathly". If you don't worry about every cent you spend,

then I consider you financially wealthy, but not rich. If you are happy with how your family is, where you live, what you do for work and play, then yes, I consider you wealthy.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

49. To me you sound like you're comfortable - not wealthy

It seems to me that you live at the level at which many Americans used to live in the 1950s and 1960s, in that you can meet your bills without falling heavily into debt even though you're a single-income family. You didn't mention whether you have adequate health coverage. In the 1960s, health costs were low and so were the costs of college, so maybe you're still not quite as comfortable as many Americans were back then. I don't think that someone who is adequately maintaining a modest but comfortable standard of living is wealthy.

[zorahopkins]

51. You Have $32,000 in Deductions?

I may be wrong here, but as I see it, you have about $32,000 in deductions.

In other words, over half of your income isn't taxed.

The 2007 Income Tax Tables show that a married person (filing jointly) with an income of $60,000 would pay $11,430 in Federal Income Tax.

For a married person (filing jointly) to pay only $3400 in Federal Income Tax, their taxable income (Line 43 on Form 1040) would have to be about $28,000 -- less than 1/2 of your total income.

Your deductions would include: $1600 in state income tax, $800 in property tax, and (at most) $8400 in mortgage interest (that assumes that your entire mortgage payment goes for interest. A wife and three kids will get you four deductions at $3,400 a deduction -- 13,600. All of that totals $24,400.

It looks as though you have another $8,000 or so in deductions.

I'd say you are pretty prudent and definitely use the tax laws to your advantage -- something rich people definitely do.

[Sanctified]

52. Man I think I may move to MO, $800 for property tax sounds really, really good right about now.

I just got my Property tax bill and it's $3,250 and I have a shitty house on a tiny lot with no lawn or backyard to speak of. My wife and I are trying to figure out how to come up with the tax money. It sucks that I pay more for taxes on my house in a year than I spend on it's mortgage.

[Hannah Bell]

53. No, you're not wealthy, but you're still doing better than 1/2 of

US households. If you feel pinched, imagine how others with less feel.

[Kitty Herder]

54. You make $60,000 a year and you have to ask?

Of course you're not wealthy. But it sounds like you're making ends meet(for now), and that's the important thing.

[BigDaddy44]

55. Have you got your health?

If you do, then you're wealthier than any rich man who doesn't........

[Lorien]

56. ...

:spray:

Seriously? You are middle class-and on the low end. Currently a "Middle Class" family makes $45-120k a year. Upper Middle class makes 150-350k a year. The definition of "Wealthy"in America now is a family that earns in excess of 460k a year.There are a surprising number of "wealthy" since BushCo too office, and fewer who are truly middle class.

In Most of Africa, South America and Asia you may be considered "wealthy", but not in the US. Problem is, a lot of middle class and lower middle class think of themselves as "wealthy" because maybe they are indeed living better than they did when growing up in a trailer park (I have several friends who share this view), so they vote Republican because they believe that Bush and his cronies actually CARE about them. :crazy:

[AlCzervik]

59. it's all relative, are you managing just fine-if so then that's all the matters.

people get totally hung up on what other people make.

[rasputin1952]

63. No...and wealth is not just monetary...

I am wealthy in many ways other than financially. The real question is, are you content?

:)