Building Manager: DC Madam's Death Not Suicide

[struggle4progress]

POSTED: 8:54 pm EDT May 2, 2008
UPDATED: 9:27 pm EDT May 2, 2008

ORLANDO, Fla. -- The building manager of a Central Florida condo said he spent time talking to Deborah Jean Palfrey on Monday as she packed to go to her mother's house and she did not seem suicidal ...

Palfrey’s building manager said she often told him she believed she was being followed and he thinks there may have been some former clients of her escort service who wanted her dead.

"She insinuated that there is a contract out for her and I fully believe they succeeded," her building manager said.

Palfrey's Lexus is still parked in the Park Lake garage and the staff said on Monday, she asked about making sure her condo fees would continue to be paid during what Palfrey anticipated would be six years in prison ...

http://www.wesh.com/news/16142638/detail.html

[MADem]

1. Hmmm. Well, if that's the case, who forged the notes? nt

[struggle4progress]

5. Notes still undisclosed, which means currently under investigation

So I find your retort rather weak

I now have no opinion about (and frankly am unlikely ever to to form any opinion about) whether this death was a suicide

I suspect that suicide-by-hanging could be faked without any signs of struggle, but I have absolutely no intention of engaging in any discussion whatsoever of that particular topic

Prostitutes as a demographic are known to have an elevated suicide risk, relative to the general population, and hanging is not an uncommon method, though here one might more have expected gunshot or poison

The manager presumably knew the woman, so his opinion is interesting though certainly not conclusive

That she did not seem suicidal, does not really shed much light: people recovering from deep depression sometimes commit suicide as soon as they have become functional enough to formulate a suicide plan and implement it, so that a relative upbeat period of increasing energy preceeds the act

The reported hints of a contract may indicate she really worried that a high-profile client would try to have her eliminated, perhaps a quite credible fear, given her profession and where it was practiced -- or it may indicate that she hoped her death would point fingers at clients she disliked, since suicides are sometimes arranged to look like murders

[MADem]

6. Excuse the fuck out of me? RETORT? Get over yourself. I asked a goddamned QUESTION.

Great attitude, there, "pal."

[struggle4progress]

9. And I answered your rhetorical question: "Notes still undisclosed" &c&c

[frogcycle]

10. pompous post award!

I agree with you that we have absolutely nothing upon which to base speculation.
beyond that, your pontificating adds nothing.

[struggle4progress]

36. Not sure what you object to:

Do you object to my pointing out that:

Police said Deborah Palfrey left at least two suicide notes and other writings to her family in a notebook, but they did not disclose their contents. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/03/AR2008050300691.html

Police said Palfrey left a suicide note. No other details were revealed. http://www.enews20.com/news_DC_Madam_Hangs_Herself_in_Shed_07650.html

Surely one needs to know something about the alleged suicide note/s before discussing whether it/they was/were forged or not

Do you object to the idea that murder by hanging is possible, that a murder by hanging might appear to be a suicide, or that a murder by hanging might be chosen in an attempt to create an impression of suicide?

Hanging murder: grandson charged
Last Updated: 09 April 2008 1:42 PM
Source: Bridlington Free Press
Location: Bridlington
THE grandson of a pensioner who was found hanged from a tree in Bempton has been charged with murder ... http://www.bridlingtonfreepress.co.uk/news/Hanging-murder-grandson-charged.3962524.jp

Here's a link to a pdf of a 1912 case (registration required) where apparently witnesses confirmed a lynching in a case initially thought to be a suicide: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9B00E7D81F31E233A2575AC2A9639C946396D6CF

Murder Suspect Admitted Hanging Actress, Police Say
By ANEMONA HARTOCOLLIS
Published: December 14, 2006
A construction worker charged in the death of an actress in the West Village gave .. an account .. describing how .. hanged her from a shower curtain rod ... He said he got the idea of making her death look like a suicide from a .. novella ... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/14/nyregion/14actress.html

All of these possibilities seem real

Do you disagree with my view that it would be unconscionably irresponsible to produce a detailed internet message board discussion on the forensic issues associated with disguising a murder as suicide-by-hanging?

Do you dislike the fact that I pointed out the elevated suicide risks among prostitutes?

In one study, 75% of women in escort prostitution had attempted suicide. Prostituted women comprised 15% of all completed suicides reported by hospitals. http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/factsheet.html

Do you think it would be irrelevant, to a discussion of whether Palfrey was killed or killed herself, to consider whether the method used was common or not?

The three most common methods of suicide – firearms, hanging, and poisoning – account for 92.3% of all suicides. http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html

<see also the Suicide Methods by Gender table at the same link>

Do you dislike my pointing out that apparent mood is not a reliable indicator of suicide risk?

It might sound strange, but someone dealing with depression may be most likely to attempt suicide just when he or she seems to have passed an episode's low point and be on the way to recovery. http://www.dbsalliance.org/site/PageServer?pagename=crisis_suicide_suicide

Perhaps you object to the observation that

Deadhouse: Life in a Coroner's Office

Every so often, suicide will disguise itself as homicide. http://books.google.com/books?id=GgmeZ--fUw8C&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=suicide+%22faked+homicide%22&source=web&ots=JgjpIXSvj1&sig=FHt2wzjYBO-KVwSY4NV2CvUkkGM&hl=en#PPA120,M1

Suicide can be a very manipulative act, with "I'll show them"/"I'll get even with them" motives. I know of a case where a fellow constructed a mechanism that hid the gun with which he shot himself in his garage

There are certainly are cases where suicides really seems to have been faked to ensure silence:

NotiSur
Volume 8, Number 38
October 16, 1998
ARGENTINA: I.B.M. SCANDAL TURNS DEADLY

The .. scandal .. International Business Machines (IBM) and Argentina's Banco Nacion Argentina (BNA) took a deadly twist when a key player was found hanged. While government officials first insisted Marcelo Cattaneo committed suicide for personal reasons, investigators are now also looking into the
possibility that he was murdered or was pressured to kill himself ...

Cattaneo disappeared Sept. 30, failing to return to his office after going to lunch. His body was found Oct. 4 hanging from an antenna tower near the Rio Plata at a construction site in the northern outskirts of Buenos Aires.

Cattaneo was found in an area that is not easily accessible. He was wearing sun glasses, although he died in the middle of the night. He was last seen wearing a business suit, but his body was found dressed in jogging clothes and red athletic shoes that were not his. In addition, his car was found miles from where his body was discovered. As one investigator said, "Dead people don't drive." ...

The autopsy revealed a folded newspaper clipping about
the bribery investigation in Cattaneo's mouth ...

http://ladb.unm.edu/search/sample/notisur.html

I'm sorry you consider this to be pompous pontificating: it's the only way I know how to sort things out

Of course, you are correct to think that there's little to go on

[Junkdrawer]

14. This?

[Joanne98]

21. lol

[stranger81]

39. how about the person who killed her?

Just a suggestion . . . .

[NanceGreggs]

2. Well, there you have it.

Who wouldn't make sure their condo fees would be paid over the next six years if they were planning suicide?

Case closed.

[MADem]

7. PURELY for the sake of argument...

Someone who knew that their mother didn't have the money to pay the fees, and who might dither over selling the place.

But who knows?

[NanceGreggs]

8. Yes, "who knows" at this point.

But it sure doesn't smell right.

[malaise]

20. That's my view

What's more why is everyone on M$M assuming that the 'notes' were in her handwriting. What proof do they have?

[Junkdrawer]

15. So, she was considerate about her mother's finances, BUT...

given the wide range of suicide options in front of her, she decided to hang herself in a place where her mom was sure to find her.

Got it.

[MADem]

26. Well, think about it.

She didn't want her corpse rotting away forever, but she was polite enough to hang herself in something OTHER THAN a living space. So she hanged herself in the shed. Close enough to be found, not in the house, so her mom wouldn't be freaked out every time she went by the room.

Hell, ADM Mike Boorda wrote his note on his computer, walked out into the garden of his official quarters at the Navy Yard, and shot himself there. I knew him--he loved his family DEARLY. He was especially protective of his wife. Why didn't he go far away?

So maybe you haven't 'got it.'

I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject, though. Are you?

[AlGore-08.com]

11. Just F.Y.I. suicides often put their financial affairs in order before they kill themselves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_crisis

Suicide crisis

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A suicide crisis, suicidal crisis, or potential suicide, is a situation in which a person is attempting to kill him or herself or is seriously contemplating or planning to do so. It is considered by public safety authorities, medical practice, and emergency services to be a medical emergency, requiring immediate suicide intervention and emergency medical treatment.

Nature of a suicide crisis

Most cases of potential suicide have warning signs. Suicidal behaviours are clear warning signs. Attempting to kill oneself or harming oneself, talking about or planning suicide, writing a suicide note, talking or thinking frequently about death, exhibiting a death wish by expressing it verbally or by taking potentially deadly risks, are all indicators of a suicide crisis. More subtle clues include preparing for death for no apparent reason (such as putting affairs in order, changing a will, etc.), writing goodbye letters, and visiting or calling family members or friends to say farewell. The person may also start giving away previously valued items (because he "no longer needs them"). In other cases, the person who seemed depressed and suicidal may become normal again; those people need to be watched because the return to normalcy could be because they have come to terms with whatever act is next.

Depression is a major causative factor of suicide, and individuals suffering from depression are considered a high-risk group for suicidal behavior. More than 90% of all suicides are related to a mood disorder, such as bipolar disorder, or other psychiatric illnesses, such as schizophrenia. The deeper the depression, the greater the risk, often manifested in feelings or expressions of apathy, helplessness, hopelessness, or worthlessness.

Suicide is often committed in response to a cause of depression, such as breaking up, serious illness or injury (like the loss of a limb or blindness), the death of a loved one, financial problems or poverty, guilt or fear of getting caught for something the person did, drug abuse, and old age, among others.

[defendandprotect]

31. ...or, as she specifically said, "while she was in jail" ...

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

33. Perhaps other financial affairs, but her condo fees for the same amount of time

she was expected to spend in prison? I don't buy that.

[NanceGreggs]

34. Of course they do.

But in this case, she had been putting her affairs together in any case, because she was facing a prison term.

[Eurobabe]

3. Agreed,

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

This stinks to high heavens.

[Adsos Letter]

24. ...we've annexed Denmark now...?

Do they know? How many super delegates do they get? Have Hillary or Barack made a swing through there yet?

Damn...this changes everything...


:hi:

[davidinalameda]

4. I'm not usually a tin hatter

but this sounds like a hit to me

I don't think that she killed herself

[TheWatcher]

12. Christ, how much more obvious does it have to get?

She.

Was.

Murdered.

Period.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. Listen, Palfrey had every reason to live.

She was about to get righteous on people's ass, and that must have been a good feeling.

[no_hypocrisy]

16. As a general rule in criminal law, there is a presumption AGAINST suicide.

More reason if it was a staged murder for the modality to be hanging to reduce if not eliminate that presumption. Having the situation concluded a suicide seems a bit immediate to me. Perhaps if a full investigation with forensics and interviews had been conducted, I would not have my tinfoil hat on.

[Junkdrawer]

17. The cop holding a press conference and declaring that the reason...

she hung herself where her mother was sure to find her was that "Suicides are selfish, thoughtless people" was an especially nice touch, don't you think?

[OzarkDem]

29. Agree, crass and cruel

Suicide is an act of desperation by people whose judgement has become so impaired by depression they see it as the only solution. Most suicides see their act as not only solving their own problems, but those of their loved ones.

[Occulus]

32. He didn't actually say that, did he?

Really?

:wow:

[midnight]

35. Are we not suppose to believe that what the police say is

factual? I wonder what makes this acceptable?

[judasdisney]

18. Hell yes, high skepticism is warranted. Especially considering

the long list of powerful and compromised people with compelling motives to see her silenced.

High skepticism is warranted.

[mirrera]

19. There was a movie that had a forced "hanging" hit job...

I have been trying to remember which one. It is driving me crazy because it was a powerfully scary scene. Basically the Jackels overwhelmed the person forced them mat the threat of torture to write the note and then got them ready to be hung. It was like 4 big people to one. I think duck tape was involved, but I remember thinking how realistic it was. Anyone know the movie??? Good Shepard? Deja Vu? Syrianna? Arghhh can not remember.

I do know if I was a wealthy woman, or not, I would definitely choose booze, drugs, and a sexy night gown for my exit scene. Hanging is so not an option.

[Frustratedlady]

22. My question is, why didn't she wait until closer to her sentencing date in July?

Also, why would someone who liked to be fashionable choose suicide with a rope, rather than pills? I shouldn't think she had enough weight to do the job. Also, was there an autopsy? Was she cremated?

Stinks!

[ileus]

23. yeah he should know....LOL

[Mandate My Ass]

25. Hanging is painful and risky. I don't buy it.

Women go to bed with pills and vodka, at least if I was gonna do it, that's exactly how I would accomplish it. Just go to sleep. :boring:

[rucky]

27. ya think?

[Rosemary2205]

28. Duh

I have in no way even noticed news coverage on this, but I can't believe anyone who even knows about the "DC Madam" would think anything other than her being murdered.

[defendandprotect]

30. "A contract on her" seems more than likely--!!! Undoubtedly, she was murdered . . .

[HCE SuiGeneris]

37. KIck

[lunatica]

38. Whoever doesn't wonder about this is braindead

At this point there's no telling since we don't know all the facts, but it sure smells fishy to anyone with a brain.

[bluesmail]

40. I am of the opinion that she was suicided, no debate neccesary.