Basic Training... My son joined the Army reserves, how can he get out? Advice needed...

[never cry wolf]

My son just finished basic training at Ft. Jackson, S.C.... I tried to talk hom out of it before he went bur he went anyway... he was offered a $20k bonus but took half that in exchange for a 2 year deferment from being sent overseas.......

he has now finished basic and wants out asap..... his AIT (next training) was to be a paralegal.....

he is contemplating filing papers to ty to get out which if he does will take 4 months and result in a dishonorable discharge or he can go awol and result in the same determination???? and will result in a dishonorable discharge.....

my own council is for him stick it out.... but he is determined to leave the service...

anyone know a way out of the reserves? He is thinking of basically going awol... what are the downsides?

I tried to warn him but he is 22 years old...

thx for any and all help

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. AWOL.... if he does that

he MIGHT face court martial, prison and a Dishonorable, which will make his life hell

In fact, a dishonorable will make his life hell

Stick it out... though he MIGHT try conscientous objector and good luck

[liberal N proud]

7. Or he could become President some day

bu$h is a perfect example of that scenario.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Bush comes from a multimillionaire family

very special case....

For the rest of us... they will throw the book and then some

[liberal N proud]

11. True

[DS1]

2. I thought AIT was advanced infantry training

(nope, looked it up, i = individual)

but I wasn't in the Army, I was in another branch. If he's locked in as a paralegal, I would suspect that's a very long school. He should go through it, and then weigh his options. If he's going to get out early with a dishonorable discharge, he might as well get out with ~some~ kind of skill before shooting his career in its foot.

[TomInTib]

3. If he is that hell-bent....

then let him take the hits.

If he forces it and still fights it, he will be seriously screwed.

He either needs to suck it up and do it, or get out quick.

Either way, he will be somewhat screwed.

AWOL is never a good idea. He is throwing it to the whim of Mercy. And Mercy isn't too reliable, these days.

[Catch22Dem]

4. If he does, be prepared to have him living at home forever

No one will hire him, not even for a job at McDonalds with that dishonorable. I spent 8 years in the service. Best 8 years of my life. Basic Training is hard on some folks, but it's not indicative of the "real" military. Tell him to ride it out. I had a awesome job and loved every minute of it.

Bottom line, we're not drafting kids, so when you volunteer, you volunteer. Why the change of heart?

[goldcanyonaz]

29. Reality probably set in.

[never cry wolf]

45. I don't think he realized what he was getting into

he did well in basic, passed all the requirements 1st try but now says he cannot stand the thought of 6 more years of it, even if on;y a weekend a month and 2 weeks in the summer....

[cornermouse]

5. This might be way out of date.

Bush changed a lot of things, but is your son married, does he have kids and if so, can he prove hardship? He might have to spend some time getting a psych eval. Eventually, my sister-in-law got their pastor and they went to where he was being trained and talked till they got him out. If I remember correctly it was something about hardship and losing their home.

Due to other replies, I should point out that I don't think he had a dishonorable discharge but if it was it didn't harm his career. He went on to get a very well paid job almost immediately.

[never cry wolf]

46. Thanks.but not married, no kids.. no excused other than he changed his mind

unfortunately....

[cornermouse]

64. My brother went in thinking that they would train him

in the field of work he was working in and wanted to advance in. Instead, he had already learned all the information that was in the curriculum that they were giving him elsewhere. He must have miscalculated the finances and his wife and child were in danger of losing their home. He wanted out and when he told them, apparently they immediately started a psych eval. When he called his wife, she got their pastor and they went down and got him out.

[cynatnite]

6. He really needs to take a step back and think about this...

If this is not handled correctly it will ruin his life permanently.

There is no going back if he goes AWOL. The military has been coming down very hard on soldiers who do that.

If he has a valid reason for wanting out and can do it without damaging his life he probably should speak to a chaplin. I know it's religious, but they can exert a great deal of influence in sensitive matters like this. If it's possible, they can help make sure this is handled the right way without losing his benefits.

Dishonorable discharges and general discharges are permanent and can be very harmful.

I would strongly urge that he at least finish AIT. That will not only give him some kind of education and help him in the civilian world should he get out, but it will also give him more time to reconsider.

He really needs to stop and take a long time to think about how best to get out without doing permanent damage to his life that he'll later regret.

At the very least, get him to a chaplin. That would be a good first step.

[seriousstan]

8. Stop trying to talk him out of it and let the MAN do his service.

[Subdivisions]

14. You didn't read the post or just don't comprehend it? n/t

[seriousstan]

15. "he has now finished basic and wants out asap" Why? because he wants out and mommy has been filling

hes head with that idea. Her son is a grown man. He signed, they paid and he now owes.

[Subdivisions]

16. He said He advised his son to see it through but

his son is determined to get out of it even if he has to go AWOL. In fact, dad said it twice that he advised his son against his plan to get out.

[seriousstan]

18. After the damage was done. She should now CONVINCE him to stay.

She could start by explaining how she was wrong in the fisrt place. Put her best face on and get him with the program.

[Subdivisions]

20. It is a HE, the father, that is posting. And he has advised his

son to stay in and stick it out.

[seriousstan]

23. Sorry about the gender blindness. No offense meant. My advice stands.

In your mind, the father and I agree...I would take it many steps above "council". I would use some major fatherly pull. This is a life changing decision.

[Subdivisions]

28. I most definately agree with you and the father that the son

should follow through. If he doesn't and it leads to an dishonorable discharge, he'll regret it the rest of his life.

[seriousstan]

33. Unanimous agreement on a political forum.....I see Drudge Breaking News spinning spotlight here.

This gin and tonic is for you.....:toast:

[never cry wolf]

48. LOL, thank you both

I am the father and I tried to talk the kid out of it before he joined... now he is in and i am trying to talk him out of a second bad decision that will not undo the 1st bad decision.... how do i get thru to him??? he has just been thru basic training, isolated away from family and friends for 10 weeks....

and i am now awakening as well.... i hate to get into a pissing match with him but he does need to stick it out...... he is 22 years old, i love him dearly but i think he needs to suck it up now

[malaise]

72. A dishonorable discharge is way better than

dying for lies.

[michreject]

81. Not really

What kind of suffering do you feel when you're dead?

[vanlassie]

77. Gender blindness is not all I see here...Do your friends and family

often need to repeat things several times to you before you decide to heat them??

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Or... he had a hell of a DI... just saying

:-)

And does not realize AIT should be different from Basic

[seriousstan]

19. Then this should be a learning opportunity. And a pleasant one at that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. It should, and as a former Training Officer (somewhere else)

I can tell you... we sometimes are guilty for folks getting second thoughts about their ahem, calling.

And there are times it is better if they leave... but in this case, AWOL, PRISON and Dishonorable is way too high of a price to pay

His only choice, if he truly means it... is CO

[seriousstan]

25. Agreed, not optimistic about it working..but, agreed. CO or then suck it up and serve.

[Richard Steele]

36. Nice- as helpful as you are relevant. nm

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richard Steele]

38. I missed nothing. And that insult was OLD halfway through second grade. Are you in 2nd grade?

If not, that's a pretty sad comment on YOU, now isn't it?
You actually think my NAME is gonna get under my skin at the age of 40? :eyes:

Sincerely,
Richard Steele

[seriousstan]

41. Sorry Dick, I didn't realize you were that young.

So address the fact that the thread tree above you was productive.

[Richard Steele]

43. SNARK does little to bolster your credence. Quite the opposite, in point of fact.

You and I are not on a first name basis. Do try to remember
some manners, won't you?

[Occulus]

50. I just read the entire exchange

You were of absolutely no help.

Have you ever considered that having people in our military who honestly and truly do not want to be there at all is a really bad idea?

(I'd rather only have people there who want to be there- considering our ample population and all.)

[Richard Steele]

56. Given the number of servicemembers who made me who I am today, I look at his posts like "WTF"?

His jingoistic crap makes no sense to me whatsoever.
I wonder if he's ever even MET a combat veteran.

For the record: I never served in uniform.
And that's because this nation's Armed Forces had STANDARDS back in 1985
when I graduated High School at the age of 16.
(no "GED" BS...I started early, and then skipped a grade- actual DIPLOMA at 16)

The military loved my grades and IQ and my SAT scores...
they turned me down on my Psyche Profile.
I'm not the kind of guy who follows orders unquestioningly.

And that's probably because every significant person in my life
had served, and spent time telling me about it.

Grandpa Steele: WWII. I'll say no more about that, because he never did.
My dad and all his brothers: Nam-era Navy.
My step-father (and Dad's best friend): Nam Infantry
His best friend, like an uncle to me: Ground-Pounding Nam infantry.(bronze star recipient)
StepDad's little sister- Career Marine; drill instructor before retiring at 20 years.
Mom's oldest sister- Career Army officer.
Mom's oldest brother- Nam infantry.
Mom's little brother- Crazy little Marine Corp sonovabitch who could WHUP
any man twice his size and joined the Corps to prove it.


All of them are people who took time to talk to me,
people who had an influence on my life over the years
from my toddler days in 1969 until 3 days ago when I
last spoke to my father on the phone...

And I honestly don't think that a single one of them would be able
to spend 5 minutes alone in a room listening to "SeriousStan"'s opinions
before they would just barehandedly beat and kick the living shit out of him.

His homebrewed armchair opinions are really just that ridiculous, silly, and truly OFFENSIVE
to folks who have "been there" and know better.

[JANdad]

57. "Psyche Profile"?

Don't remember anything like a "Psyche Profile" when I joined in the 80's....

[Richard Steele]

58. I was shooting high, trying for one of the "enlisted-career-fast-track" programs they advertised...

I don't recall the actual acronym they used, but the gist
of it was that they wanted HS graduates with good grades
to enlist instead of going to college, and they were offering
to put them into logistics/supply duty right after Basic;
stateside non-combat desk jobs with guaranteed promotions that
would let an enlisted man retire at age 37 with a seargeant's
pension and his whole life ahead of him.

Sounded like a pretty sweet deal to me, a smart kid with good
grades who couldn't afford college, right?

But- I had had "problems with authority", and had spent one
of my "study hall" periods per week in MIDDLE school sitting
with the "counsellor" who came around one day a week.

That shit went on my "permanent record", and the recruiter
said it disqualified me from the "fast-track" Army Admin program.

I said. "OK, forget the 'programs', just sign me up for Basic
and let me find my own level"
Nope- turning me down for the special program put a mark
on my record that meant I couldn't even enlist as a raw recruit.
If I had just enlisted RAW in the first place, they would have
taken me. I screwed myself by shooting too high. in 1985.




But, you wanna know just how far this country has fallen since then?
You wanna know what's really sick?

I'm 39 years old now, and 215 pounds, dumber and slower than I was at age 16 and
I have a thing or two on my criminal record that I didn't have in 1985....
and any recruiter in the USA would sign me up for Basic in 3 minutes flat.

That's a God-blessed FACT.

[JANdad]

59. So you tried to enlist

At age 16? Did not know they did that...

[Richard Steele]

60. I was 5 months out of high school, and six weeks from turning 17...

And I had spent a lot of time that summer discussing enlistment with my Mom,
my Dad, and my StepDad.

It was 1985, the USA at peace with the world, and they all agreed
that joining the military was a darn good plan for my future.
My Dad and Stepdad had both spent 20 years making money from
the job-training they got in the Navy and Army, respectively,
and they thought that my shot at "administrative" training was
the best deal they had ever heard of...

So they were all ready to sign the necessary papers the day I turned 17.

But it was not to be.

Kind of a bummer- even with everything that the Army has been dragged into
over the last 25 years, I still regret not joining sometimes.

Not that I'm unhappy with my life today- I'm not. I like where I'm at today.
But sometimes I just have to wonder about what might have been,
where I might have been stationed, all the people I might have met there... y'know?

[roody]

10. Try these.

http://www.objector.org/girights/

http://www.citizen-soldier.org/

[mitchtv]

12. Well I wan't going to say the obvious

But looking at the options given, I'd say he has no choice. Tho appparently unthinkable to all the strates that answered, "Coming out" will avoid th DD, Sadly you are in the South, and they would probably spread it all over, but it beats AWOL I am not sure but I think you will get a GD. It probably won't work next year.

[goldcanyonaz]

13. website with information on military discharges inside.

http://www.objector.org/girights/gettingout/discharges.html#pgfId-1000477

[TwilightGardener]

21. If he wants out bad enough, and talks to his commanders and anyone else who

will listen (Chaplain, Army shrinks, etc.), I'd bet they'll let him out, speaking as the wife of a career Air Force officer who's seen his share of fellow servicemen get "separated" for various reasons before their enlistments or commissions were up. The military doesn't want people who are totally incompatible with the service, even though it's not easy to leave if you don't wash out of basic (of course). I sincerely hope he doesn't go AWOL--that's a crime, and will have severe repercussions. He just needs to talk to the right people in his unit/command--the downside is that they might assume he's not mentally/emotionally stable, so be prepared for that.

[goldcanyonaz]

27. Not that easy these days. Bodies are not as plentiful as before.

[TwilightGardener]

30. No, but commanders and doctors have a lot of leeway to make or influence decisions

if they judge that someone is not fit for service.

[BlueIris]

24. This is an interesting thread. nt

[tkmorris]

26. He's done the worst of it.

Since he has a 2 year deferment for going overseas, I think I would gamble and stay in at this point. Basic is no fun, the endless head games are just stupid, but he has finished that part. Now comes the valuable part, the paralegal training. Why miss out on that?

I think in 2 years we will be doing some serious standing down on overseas deployments, at least with regards to Iraq etc. His odds of ending up there seem fairly small.

I agree with others, AWOL is a bad idea. The punishment for it can be extreme, and is unpredictable. In the current environment I know they will be looking to make sure no one else is tempted to go AWOL, and thus will likely crucify him. I don't know what "papers" he is considering filing, but in any case a dishonorable discharge can be a rather serious black mark to carry around. Federal student loans, for example, or applying for a civil service position, or any number of other things will be difficult to impossible. Often you can get a dishonorable upgraded to a general type discharge later, but I think that has gotten tougher to do since I left the service.

[never cry wolf]

51. Thanks for a very informative post!

He wanted paralegal because he wanted to be a lawyer, he has 3 years of college in already... Now he is leaning towards being a teacher and a coach but I am afraid a dishonorable will kill his chances for any government job, even if the government is a local school district...

[aasleka]

31. A good lesson in responsibility he might not get out

But probably admitting he is a drug addict might do the trick?

[TwilightGardener]

32. My husband had a troop get drummed out for not practicing "personal hygiene".

[seriousstan]

34. He would be tested. If he drugs up in order to fail, he would ruin his life with the discharge spec.

[AnnieBW]

35. Say that he's gay.

That'll get him kicked out for sure. I'll leave my rant against "Don't ask, don't tell, just discharge" for another day.

[and-justice-for-all]

39. Tell'em he is a Gay Atheist....

he will be removed in less than 24hrs.

[Catch22Dem]

68. I was an Atheist in the military

No one gave a shit. I had a gay guy working for me. One of the best workers I ever had. I knew, he new, we all knew. None of us gave a shit about that either.

The only reason I make this point is so that we don't ALL get painted with the same brush.

[and-justice-for-all]

83. That's great...

I do not expect everyone in the military to be what has been purported in the news regarding the Gays in the military as well as Atheist who have been badgered by some.

It would just seem to be the 2 most logical things to tell them, in order get the hell out if they so choose.

[ColbertWatcher]

40. Did he ever say why he wanted out? n/t

[never cry wolf]

52. Our dialogue has been limited by circumstances but...

despite the fact he excelled in basic he hates the way the army does things, finds it all mentally boring AND does not want to be activated. It is hard for me to understand because I am not sure what motivated hom to sign up in the 1st place, despite my warnings and cautions.....

I think he is now between a rock and a hard place

[ColbertWatcher]

55. Well, the Army could always use someone...

...with legal training here at home. He doesn't have to fight against the Army, but instead can help soldiers make their way around the paperwork and bureaucracy. If you've been following the news (which I am sure you have) you know the VA hospitals are overwhelmed and you hear stories about how the soldiers have no one but family as an advocate.

If he objects to the warfare portion, he can get conscientious objector status and help out here at home.

But, he's going to have to get the training first.

Other posters have stated how damaging a dishonorable discharge is to his career. I am surprised there isn't anyone on base that can help him. Is there no one he can talk to? A counselor of some sort? How about Veterans groups?

[phillysuse]

42. Time to explore his sexuality

It's still Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

He should shout it from the rooftops, write letters to the newspapers.

I'm GAY and I'm in the ARMY.

[GoldenOldie]

49. Hey Guys! This isn't your father's Army!

At one time in the past, young men and women could sign-up and serve and they could receive the very best training and experience in not only military procedures but also on the latest technical equipment which was used to give them a big leg-up in their civilian resumes. This is no longer true in this "Volunteer Army,"

Having spent my professional career as a civilian within the DOD and working and playing beside the active duty and veterans of VietNam, I personally observed the PRO's and CON's. Many of those who served after VietNam, during our Peace time, haven't a clue as to what these very patriotic, Naive young enlistees are enduring......The recruiters have lied about enlistment bonus's, career training after basic training, deployment deferments, paid college upon completion of service, etc., etc., etc., etc. Yeah, it doesn't take em long to learn they have been had. The question is, now what do they do?

My number-one grandson, the very naive, patriotic, who did not want his parents financial support for college, "I'm an adult now, and I have to pay my own way," 20-year old, who bought into his Recruiters bs, is now serving in Iraq. As much as we, his family, tried to talk him out of it, we failed. We had no other choice but to support his decision and provide the support we know he will need to get through. He is extremely intelligent and computer savvy yet he is a recon-scout???? His cousin who had signed-up after graduation from high school and became a Marine, SeaBee, served one tour in Iraq and returned to the States and preparing to attend his scheduled deep-sea diving school, was suddenly given 78-hours notice to deploy to Afghanistan as a foot soldier?????

My grandson has told us that everything he learned in basic-training and Unit assignment could be thrown out the window......nothing they learned applied in dealing with the Iraqi. During one of his phone-calls home, his mother asked him, "what do you want to do when you grow up son," he replied "it sure won't be anything that requires a gun."

My prayers go with you, your family and your son.
dAfter When his mother asked him, "what do you want

[doc03]

44. He's 22 it's his problem now n/t

[BrotherBuzz]

47. Cripes, he either bucks up and toes the line or...

he fights like hell to get out. Either way takes a commitment that I commend. If he's just not liking the Army; living quarters, food, work....sucky job or what not and wants to bug out, I suggest he buy a clue - Everyone hates basic and AIT. FTA. It does get better, but how much is subjective. Going over the fence is the chicken way out and doesn't do in my book.

22 years old....Tough decision your son needs to make. . If he wants out he has to do it upfront. It wont be easy or pleasant but I hope it is resolved in a fashion that everyone can live with.

[eFriendly]

53. If he has any medical condition(s) that may have been missed

during the physical at the MEPS center (like a heart murmur, for example) it could possibly lead to an instant 4F classification and discharge. The separation would happen almost immediately.

You may want to check again about the type of discharge a soldier might be given for going AWOL. I knew many guys at Ft. Jackson who went AWOL and only received what they would call a 'Less than honorable' discharge. And most of those type discharges automatically turned into a General discharge after 6 months.

[Jack_DeLeon]

54. No one can make you do anything you dont want to...

we all have free will and choose for ourselves. If he absolutely does not want to be sent overseas or fight in the Army he doesnt have to, no one can physically force him to do so, however there will be consequences as stated early about facing court martial or dishonorable discharge. He signed a contract and has a obligation, but he still has free will and will have to judge for himself what he thinks is best.

[unhappycamper]

61. Here's a few web sites that may be useful:

http://ivaw.org/warresisters

http://veteransforpeace.org/Resources_resisters.vp.html

http://www.vvaw.org/resources/

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

62. Declaring "CO" status won't help

The Army would be happy to have a CO paralegal. Nobody expects paralegals to pick up a rifle, especially here in the US.

AWOL is bad. He might get a bad discharge, but before then, there's a special Army hell that makes basic training look inviting. Hard labor, detention, maybe imprisonment.

Have him talk with chaplains. Have him talk with Army lawyers. At least then the options and consequences will be clearer.

And, hey, by the time his 2-year deployment exemption is done, we may be out of the Middle East. I can dream, right?

[czechpat]

63. dont go awol!

Although AWOL is better better than being dead - just ask Bush. Sorry, Im in the czech republic, and I didnt honestly read through all the replies.. But You DID say reserves, right? I 'll tell you my experience with the reserves.. aCTUALY aRMY guard, but basically the same:

He absolutley should finish AIT. He wont go to the war, and he'll have a steady job, food, and a place to sleep during that time. He HAS to understand hat AIT will NOT be like basic training. He will have free time, time to go into the real world, no jackass DI's in his face all the time. (Some of the time, yes) But again, you said reserves, so once he finishes AIT, he'll be sent to his home unit. Even then, I would not say go AWOL. But when I was in, there were other considerations... I couldn't make the 2 mile run, so after 2 tries at that, the little seargent, like Radar in MASH, told me not to come back, so after several months of missing drill weekends, I got a discharge paper from the guard. No "honerable, dishonerable, or otherwise" But with a bad code for reenlistment. Of course a year later I went to the navy reserve, they crinkled the code for reenlistment when they faxed my NGB form to their supers, and I got into the Navy reserve no problem. Afer 18 month s there, I got out freely, but I had done enough time on my original contract (had 4 + years in the AIR GUARD before all this)

Much later, I joined the Coast Guard, full time, had two alocohol related incidents in the first year, and got kicked out. Fair enough, but kicked out WITH an honorable discharge, and again a bad re-enlistment code. They felt it was medical, maybe so, point is I never went to the brig, never had a court martial, got honorable discharges, but for unacceptable conduct, and would never go back to serve this war crimainal president.

Anyway.. In my Army guard time I saw numerous people who just stopped coming to drill weekends, and all that hapened was some poor soldiers had to go pick up their gear, and they were quietly released, no CM, no dishonorable, nothing, just that they wouldnt be able to get into another branch. Mind you this is after Basic and AIT.!! And it wasnt war on terra time.

Dont go AWOL in AIT. He's on active duty for that, it would be big problems. AIT will be more like a regular job than basic, and once at the unit he can do those things, claim gayness, get drunk all the time, fail the run and sit up, test, etc, and just get "asked to leave" but too this is "war" and they are taking felons in the army and marines now , so who knows.. good luck..

[adigal]

65. I think AWOL is a very bad idea

Does he want to spend his life in the United States? I ask because a LOT of my students, and my own kids, say they would rather live in Canada than the United States after schooling. Sad, but they know Canada is not as racist, has health care, and is a peaceful nation.

But I don't know if someone can get into another country with an AWOL on their name.

[czechpat]

66. Yeah, AWOL bad, unless you're a bush

going AWOL alone wont keep him from going to canada or any other country if he wants (If he goes while he's still AWOL). BUT having a felony conviction for any crime, including AWOL, could very well prevent him from "residing" in another country. That is, if he went to Canada while AWOL, maybe no problem. But I think that's been done by other soldiers, and I dont think Canada allowed them to stay once the US Army went after them. There are old threads here about such cases. And after a conviction for being AWOL, he likely would indeed have problems travelling...When travelling as a tourist, Canada or Europe dont ask for criminal records.. When applying to be a resident or citizen, they do, and a military conviction for being AWOL might be a problem then, although in my experience they simply make you sign an affidavit saying you havn't committed a felony cime in your home country. Im sure Canada is more stringent as they are likely connected to the FBI and other US cop databases. Sorry can't remember the ..oh yeah, NCIS, etc...But your questions weren't about leaving the country....Again, I say finish AIT, it's not as bad as basic!!! start drilling in his home unit.. Either have some drink related incidents, but not DUI as he'll go to civillian jail while that's sorted, so better drunk on base.. or fail the run test, or not show up for drill weekends, and get put out. He wont get anything worse than "Re-enlistment not receommended" If all else fails, let him do his reserve time at home, collect the pay and bonus, get some GI bill, go to school, and IF his unit gets sent to Iraq, Afghan, or Iran ??, then maybe "miss movement" and risk the jail time.."Dishonorable discharge" isnt the end of the world either. Going to a military prison for some years would absolutley suck though!!!

It sounds like his problem isnt with the war(s), he joined recently? But rather he has culture shock after basic training..So claiming CO status probably wont work, besides, the recruiters ask them that before signing the contract. Again, lEt him know that life in AIT and especially as a reservist, will NOT be anything like his Basic training...after that, it's like a regular job.. sorta.. Underpaid, more danguerous at times, but still they treat you like a human being.. Until you get sent off to the war..That's the important thing to watch for.

[czechpat]

67. once more

Sorry, it's evening in Prague, so after a couple of dinner beers and wine Im in a writing mood.. But I also just remembered this:

Fresh out of high school, I joined the regular navy in 1986 (yes, that makes four branches for me for those who are counting - everything but Marines) I had a promised A (AIT) school of "AW" or airborne anti submarine warfare operator. In Basic, the flight surgeon decided I couldn't pass a flight physical, so I had the option of getting out (the Navy had breeched their contract with me) or taking a non-flying job. As you can see above, I got out, joined the Air Guard (F-16 weapons), later the Army guard (AH-64 weapons), got "asked to stop coming" for failing the run test,joined the Navy Reserve, (WITH A bad REENLISTMENT CODE) where I got a waiver and DID fly as an aircrewman, and finally the Coast Guard, where I got booted for drink related incidents, but again with an honorable discharge. ANyway, the point of this most current post is that while I was waiting for my "Breech of contract" discharge from the original Navy contract, in basic training, there was another group of guys awaiting the same thing, except we were segregated: I and others were to be discharged due to medical, the other group were "legal"... Some had had convictions discovered after they got to boot camp, but most simply were in the status of having "Refused Training" .. It means THEY JUST SAID NO. And the only thing they got was this : "ENTRY LEVEL SEPERATION" discharge, with a bad re-enlistment code, again. But now it strikes me that guys or girls in these cases did NOT get dishonorable, they hadnt been there long enough. They got ELS, it was neither good nor bad.. The only consequence was their re-up code, if they wanted to get in the military again. I think this entry level seperation was a catch all discharge for anyone who had been there less than 180 days, so long as they hadnt blatently broken some laws, like beat a superior officer, etc. So that MIGHT be an option for your son. Entry Level Seperation. Refuse training. I say Might. I m certainly not a lawyer, Military or other!!!

And again I want to say this: Im not saying the military are bad. Most of the people there are just hard working folks trying to make a decent living for their family, and they believe their country is good. And again Ill say that I think your son joined with the knowledge that he might go to war! He should have known the consequences!!! The best that could happen is that he goes home to his reserve unit, does his drill weekends, and never gets deployed. I never did. But he has to accept his commitment.. If he chooses to go AWOL, the results could be bad indeed, at least for a few years. I dont think even a dishonorable discharge will hurt his future job prospects - enough people know this war is illegal - but the jail time and punishment in the meantime would suck. He made the contract, now he wants out - he's no different than thousands of boys and girls before him, except that you care about him. So, get on the web, research "entry level seperation" and urge him to go to AIT every day in the meantime! He aint gonna get killed going to paralegal training, but he might have a world of hurt if he disappears.

SO right then..You may want to try to find a legal clinic. Or the Army even should have some legal ombudsman online to give you real advice. I had to contact Coast Guard HQ in DC to get legal counsel from a coast guard lawyer during my hassles.. but some where.. maybe legal forum dot com slash military law, etc.. or legal advice dot com, you might find more professional advice....

I think the military is an honorable profession, in spite of my own troubles, and in spite of what all of you may have gathered from my previous posts, and as I said I think your son joined knowing there were two and more secret wars going on, and he should have been forwarned. It does sound to me like he's just freaked out about basic, and we've all seen that, even in peace time. Now he can't drink a beer or crank it whenever he wants, and he thinks thats it for the next 4 or 6 years. It won't be like that...I've been to three boot camps...but this is my two cents bout how to get the hell out, after the fact..but again, if he joined after the war started, it sounds like only you were thinking about his future, and what he sees now is not the regular army... Anyway, good luck Remember: ENTRY LEVEL SEPERATION

[jmowreader]

69. It won't result in a dishonorable discharge, so relax

The fucking Drill Sergeants will have you believe that there's only two kinds of discharges--honorable and dishonorable. There are actually five.

HONORABLE: This is the discharge you really want, and unless you do something Not So Good, this is the discharge you get, mainly because they have to have a lot of justification to not give you one. Since he just joined the army, he's eligible for the Trainee Discharge Program (the program whereby either the soldier admits he fucked up in joining or the Army admits they fucked up in taking him, and they just send him home) and that's always done under honorable conditions. However, if he goes AWOL they'll discharge him for misconduct and that can be the...

GENERAL: They reserve this for patterns of repeating little shit...he is always late to formation, he dresses in uniforms that look like he pulled them out of a duffel bag and boots that were shined with a candy bar, he never shaves and he's 20 pounds overweight, we've tried to help him for six months and he refuses to listen, so we're going to get rid of him.

UNDER OTHER THAN HONORABLE CONDITIONS: This is the worst discharge you can get without being court-martialed, and you have to commit a fairly substantial, but not QUITE substantial enough to interest a courts-martial convening authority, crime to get one of these. This is very rarely used, because the line between Other Than Honorable and Bad Conduct is very thin. If I can get OTH to go through, I can probably get a BCD.

BAD CONDUCT DISCHARGE: Just what it sounds like. There are only two ways to get someone this discharge: a BCD Special Court Martial and a General Court Martial. If you're trying to throw a guy out on BCD you almost always go for the BCD Special court-martial, because convening a general court-martial is very complex--it requires a jury of seven officers, for instance. To get this discharge you have to do some major shit--selling crack in the barracks will almost always land you one of these. Car theft will get you this discharge. You're also going to jail if you receive this discharge.

DISHONORABLE DISCHARGE: Reserved for the most major felonies--rape, murder, espionage, blackmarketing...every enlisted person in Leavenworth is getting this discharge. This can ONLY be awarded as a result of a general court-martial. It's the most punitive discharge and is exceptionally rare. You don't get this discharge because you don't like the Army and want out.

Here's what I'd recommend for the OP's son: Have him make an appointment with the battalion commander under that officer's open door policy--all officers are required to have one. He should explain that he made a mistake in enlisting, and he wants out of the service. The battalion commander really doesn't want a guy who doesn't want to be there, and since he's been in for such a short time the paperwork to discharge him isn't hard to fill out. Go past the company commander on this one: most company commanders I've ever dealt with feel it's a personal affront for a guy to request a TDP and many of them will blow him off (at best) or make his life hell (at worst). Battalion commanders will just get rid of you; it won't hurt their feelings any and they know both your son and his unit will be better off.

[never cry wolf]

70. I wanted to thank all who helped me out here

My son asked me to research and I had no clue where to start, I now have lots of info and good advice. Thanks to all!

[Release The Hounds]

71. I had a buddy get out during AIT

I can't remember which article of the UCMJ it is, but it's referred to as (paraphrasing) failure to adjust to military lifestyle. This was 1993.

[czechpat]

73. right

See

jmowreader

has better current advice!! main thing is dont let your son f__k up AIT. he has to get through that to prove he's not a sh_t bag, as far as the army is concerned. Of ourse we know he isnt! Or if he can affect his discharge during that,then fine, but going AWOL will be nothing but trouble... in my experience, missing reserve weekends, was no big deal, AFTER BASIC AND AIT! and an easy way to get booted with no troubles, but that may be different now!! But my time was only during the 1st gulf war, no stop loss then.

Sorry too, i thought the original poster was the soldier's mother, seen my mistake since then.

Again - goodluck

[czechpat]

74. yeah

Right
What jmowreader said, those discharges, and again the ENTRY LEVEL SEPERATION in addition.. can be for people whoe just dont "adapt" to military lifestyle or refuse training, or are gay, or are , well, etc.. I have friend here who got out of mandatory Army service in the Swiss Army by claiming a fear of authority. Reality was he's just homo-phobe who didnt want to share a room with 80 other pretty swiss boys hehe... Even though he's a pretty Swiss boy....Sorry, now Im dragging this thread off topic Swiss boy has nothing to do with current case. Did I mention it's beer time in Prague?

[czechpat]

75. and yeah

I had another old friend, more accuratly roommate, who got out during ARMY AIT, I think he just told the brass he was Pu**yWhipped. I mean really, he never gave me any more detailed explaination, and the funny thing is he didnt even have a girlfriend at the time. But same thing... ENTRY LEVEL SEPERATION ( he was supposed to be a medic) and no future troubles. Of course he turned out to be a dead beat room mate, and Ive no idea what ever happened to him. Again he was BEFORE the 1st gulf war, so Ive no idea what the army is doing now..I know they are taking gang bangers and criminals, so they may be holding on to their good troops harder. Maybe he could try to get a transfer to the airforce??????

[pleah]

76. I'm sorry he had to learn the hard way.

Flee the country or face the reality. Unfortunately, this hard headed decision may cost him his life.
I am so sorry. I just don't know what else there is to say.

[DarbyUSMC]

78. I wish my right arm wasn't broken so I could type a more

detailed reply.

When I arrived at Parris Island, where there is only one way out (the main gate), I knew I'd made a huge mistake. (Think Pvt. Benjamin without money). However, there was no way out. I'd never had consequences to face during my first 18 years of life. Quit piano lessons; dropped subjects that bored me or that required too much effort --- yada, yada. You get the idea. Well, when I got to Parris Island it was "It's your baby, you rock it" time. I got through boot camp and did my enlistment. Once you hold your hand up and take that oath, there may be underhanded or cheating ways to get out but that history is yours and it will be with you your whole life.

The fact that he made it through boot, albeit, not USMC boot camp ;-) is still an accomplishment and a two year deferral is cake. Something is missing from the picture, imo.

[Vinca]

79. He can always say he's gay. nt

[michreject]

80. It gets a whole lot easier after Basic

Believe me.

[KillCapitalism]

82. Maybe if he acts crazy as hell.

My uncle was drafted in the 60's along with a classmate to go to Vietnam. This classmate of his gets to basic & decides he can't hack it anymore, so the guy started talking to himself, urinating, and rubbing his own feces on his body. They ended up kicking him out of the Marines due to mental health issues.