Welfare Caliphs

[arendt]

I'm sure everyone will understand that this is just one more round of tracer cooking off in the FLDS ammunition dump fire. I hope this round hits something nasty, and not just my foot. I have listened to this appalling story, from behind about six feet of blast wall. Here's is what I think is the "dog that didn't bark" in this whole situation.

I don't want to talk about the polygamist women or their children. I most certainly do not want to take welfare payments aware from these pathetic victims (women and children, or is that "women who are children"). And, no, unlike some sophists at DU, I simply do not buy that the men were also victims. If they were victims, then so was every concentration camp commander.

What I want to talk about is the beyond hypocrisy silence of all those rabid rightwing haters who, like Ronald Reagan, dined out for decades on the slur "Welfare Queen". Where is the outrage that these men went around having babies like crazy and collecting welfare for each one? You can look at the women to see that they didn't get the money, all they got were those shitty American burkas. No, the guys took the money.

Now some people may complain that the word "caliphs" is a slur on Moslems. Well, that's like saying the word "queen" is a slur on England. The point is that these people were polygamists, and the only powerful polygamists that most Americans are aware of are Muslims. The word accurately describes the situation, right down to the sadistic cruelty of these "rulers" of their nasty little kingdom out in Texas nut country.

So, I encourage people to ask rightwing churchgoers why they have no outrage against these Welfare Caliphs. I encourage people to compare the solicitousness of the media towards the obviously abused FLDS children to the heartless "are there no workhouses?" attitude they have expressed towards the children of people of color.

I'm closing the door to the bomb shelter now. You can fire away.

arendt

[izquierdista]

1. Fire away??

You were spot on! :yourock:

[arendt]

2. The discussion on this topic has been so bizarre, vitriolic, and illogical, that I expect someone...

to hammer me.

That's why the post has more warnings, explanations, and caveats than it has exposition.

arendt

[mdmc]

3. I haven't been following that whole story

But I do have a local community of hasiddic jews. Many of them are on welfare and work in the (off the books) diamond business.

They feel that everyone should be on welfare and that personal wealth should be focused on the community. They have a strong sense of community identity.

[arendt]

5. Another bunch of fundamentalist whackjobs...

when I lived in New Jersey, they creeped me out. The women submissively following the men around, always with children in tow. But, I will give them that they are not polygamists, and that the ultra-orthodox jewish community has demeaned women for three millenia.

I never heard of this communal sharing of wealth that you speak of. Where can I find out about it?

arendt

[mdmc]

58. the community has very nice libraries, community centers

all things are good within the community. They don't hurt anyone and seem kosher in my eyes. They've been votin dem recently too.

[MuseRider]

4. Finally

thank you. I was staying out of this one because I was just too angry at what I had been reading to form logical sentences. You nailed it.

[Mist]

6. Great essay. I would also suggest, when discussing this subject with

others, to use the term "welfare dads." These men are able to collect welfare because none of their "wives" are legal wives. I like that the term "welfare dads" is something that begs for an explanation, making it possible to explain just how these guys get welfare money (not forgetting to mention that they force their wives to turn the checks over to THEM.) Reportedly, Warren Jeffs then expected some of that same welfare money to go to HIM, for "tithing." What a disgusting racket.

[elehhhhna]

11. "Welfare pimps" works, too.

[Iris]

16. ah! excellent!

A perfect description.

[arendt]

13. The comparison is to the slur, not the less offensive "welfare moms"...

Plus, I love to be able to add another Moslem-based tag to the long line of "American ayatollah", "American Taliban", "American burqa". It must really frost these bigots and racists to be tagged with the name of the latest target of their hatred.

arendt

[Mist]

57. Good points. I hadn't thought about the usefulness of using moslem-based

terminology. I have the idea that many cons won't get it, unfortunately.

[fed_up_mother]

32. Excellent reply.

[Occulus]

51. As I recall from another thread on this subject,

they sneeringly call it "bleeding the beast".

[lapislzi]

7. I got your back, arendt

I daresay these children are costing the taxpayers of the great state of Texas a darned sight more now that there are 400 lawyers involved...a damn sight more than a piddly AFDC payment.

I would also submit that plenty of people ARE outraged by this flagrant welfare fraud. Follow the money. I think this will be another nail in social services' coffin.

Women in prairie dresses and cute kids are good fodder for news clips, however, hence the feeding frenzy over these poor people.

[fed_up_mother]

33. Most of these lawyers are working pro bono

[lapislzi]

34. Pardon me for being cynical

As if they are unaware of the publicity and business that this case will generate.

To be fair, I am sure that many are genuinely concerned with the welfare of the children. To ascribe altruistic motives to all 416+ of them, however, is more than I can get my mind around.

[fed_up_mother]

35. The point is that the state isn't paying most of them

[arendt]

37. I do not want this thread to be about the lawyers. I want it to be about the asshole "men"...

Can we stay on the topic, please.

Thank you.

arendt

[lapislzi]

38. Be kind to your old friends, arendt...

I feel chastised.

:spank:

[arendt]

39. Sorry. Didn't look back to the start of the thread. I appreciate your support...

and was just responded to the latest post.

So, far, only some whiner whom I put on ignore has had much to say about "welfare caliphs" as an effective meme.

I am still trying to get a Lakoffian, framing style discussion going about this. So, I'm monitoring the thread to keep pulling it back to the meme.

Again, sorry. In my defense, there is always a "flattening" of short posts, because there is no body language on the net. I didn't have time to be more nunaced. Sorry to come off like a fusty old schoolteacher.

arendt

[lapislzi]

41. You're off the hook...now to get back to topic

It is in fact quite curious that the welfare angle is being played down, along with ghastly FLDS meme "bleed the beast." My point was (and perhaps badly made), that in a country obsessed by the so-called tax "burden," you would think more people would lose their minds over this. Unless there is a double standard...? Could it be?

But as I said upthread, damsels in prairie dresses bring in the ratings. I'm surprised they haven't brought in Bill Paxton or Harry Dean Stanton to comment, in the absence of bona fide FLDS men.

[arendt]

45. I would say it is more "telling" than "curious". Ditto the "bleed the beast" meme.

This reminds of the very subdued reaction to the militia nutcases after the Oklahoma City bombing. This time, there is no ambiguity about who is responsible; but they refuse to see the dots that are already connected.

I'm assuming that Bill P. and Harry D.S. are Mormons? Or is it just that they have played crazos in the movies?

arendt

[lapislzi]

46. They're in "Big Love"--HBO series about FLDS families

Despite the salaciousness of the plot line (which is why I watch), the writers appear to have many of the details dead to rights.

What's good about the series is its undercurrent of subversiveness, although, again, the welfare angle is not touched upon. The patriarchs of the FLDS compound are portrayed as a kind of organized crime family.

[arendt]

48. Eeeew - how can you watch such dreck? (No offense.) I saw the plot line and stayed away...

like it was a rabid ferret.

But, hey, I get your point.

Does this show have any traction? Do the HDS or BP characters have any nicknames that we could use?

arendt

[lapislzi]

49. The voyeur in me cannot resist a Mormon soap opera

I can't remember who said "the fascination with the abomination," but that's what it is. It's worth watching just to see HDS as Prophet Roman Grant. Best villain ever. And there are many tongue in cheek touches that make you say, "hm." It is a great tragedy to see fashionista Chloe Sevigny consigned to a prairie skirt, however.

[arendt]

50. Welfare prophets? n/t

[Bandit]

8. You make welfare sound like it is a bad thing..

Granted there are people that misuse welfare but welfare itself is not bad yet you seem to suggest it is by your terminology. What is done is fraud and should be called fraud.

[arendt]

12. I tried to address that in the OP...

"I most certainly do not want to take welfare payments aware from these pathetic victims (women and children, or is that "women who are children")."

I agree with you; it is fraud and abuse of the system.

My point is to force the RW to address this utter contradiction. How can they use this to attack welfare, and not welfare cheats?

arendt

[juno jones]

9. K&R!

I've thought the same way about them for awhile now. But you put it so well!

[flashl]

10. K&R

[underpants]

14. I agree. Not that *some people* understood what I was getting at yesterday though

two posters in particular didn't seem to get that I meant this thread as a ridicule of the whole "welfare queen in cadillacs" line from Reagan

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3170278

[arendt]

17. Ouch. That's why I put all the disclaimers all over the OP. The irrationality on this is scary. n/t

[Iris]

15. They like white babies.

So it's ok.

[Malikshah]

18. Not only a slur against Muslims, but historically inaccurate and

bizarre to boot.

The use of "queen" being a slur against England just compounds the historical inaccuracy.

Why would someone wish to take the FLDS situation and then tie it to Muslims? The disingenuous nature of the explanation merely adds to the insult to our intelligence.

[arendt]

19. This is exactly what I expected. Care to document your claims instead of just whining? n/t

[Malikshah]

21. This is not history class. Go read up on the Caliphate yourself.

Strangely funny that you would use Gingrich as an example to attack my response to your post.

You are owed nothing but scorn for the post and its inanity.

I simply pointed out that it is inaccurate and questioned why you would desire to link the FLDS to Islam.

Heck, even your spelling of Muslim as Moslem is telling in its lack of knowledge concerning Islamic history or the language.

Enjoy the oblivion.

[arendt]

22. You got nothing. Put up a fact or shut up. n/t

[arendt]

23. Classic sophistry. Ignore the original topic and move to complain about the response. n/t

[Malikshah]

30. Double replies? Two times over. Do you even know what sophistry means?

You have been called out. You have not explained your inaccurate use of the term Caliph when called out.

You try and move focus to the response with words of which I am not sure you know the meaning.

Your game is off.

It is up to you to defend your poor word choice. I am not going to provide a free history lesson for you.

[arendt]

36. There are rules here. The rule is "you make an assertion, you back it with cites". You continue to..

just scream that I am wrong, and you refuse "to provide a history lesson".

You don't get to make up your own history or your own rules.

This is classic disrpuptive garbage. I've pushed the alert on you. And I'm putting you on ignore. Three strikes. You are OUT.

arendt

[Malikshah]

40. I will not provide a history lesson who equates the leaders of the FLDS

with a historical institution of rule in Islamic history.

No historical background was provided in the original post. I called the OP on it.

The use of "caliph" was defended with faulty reasoning/logic.

If one wishes to attack Islam and Islamic history, one first has to show some knowledge of it.

The OP showed known.

Alert away and ignore, but I will not stand idly by and let a civilization be disparaged.

[kwassa]

43. Uh, you made the original assertion, YOU BACK IT UP.

Trying to pass it off on someone else is pretty hilarious.

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about.

[arendt]

20. Use Gingrich-speak much? bizarre, disingenous, insult. But no facts. n/t

[nashville_brook]

24. i don't understand how they qualified for welfare, with the defense department contracts.

my brain is locked on this. maybe the DoD contracts ran out and that's when the welfare kicked in.

also, in order for anyone to "get rich" on supplemental income, someone (the women and children) are most certainly suffering incredible deprivation. the whole mess is beyond comprehension.

it's Handmaid's Tale come to life. patriarchy without restraint is this.

[arendt]

25. N-1 of the wives are not legally married to the owners of the contracting companies...

There is a lot of good information about how FLDS are masters of bureaucratic obfuscation, and how they like to "milk the beast" of money.

I wish they and the Scientologists would get into a fight. Let all their skivy lawyers kill each other.

arendt

[lapislzi]

26. The women get welfare, not the men

Since they aren't legally married and aren't employed, they apply for and receive TANF (or whatever it's called). I would guess their overlords require them to sign over the checks upon receipt.

[nashville_brook]

27. oh duh -- that's right (not legally married). i'm an idiot.

[senaca]

28. Social services

I don't know much about how welfare and medicaid works, but wouldn't this be a way that social services could access communities such as these? If the government is providing services and let's say a significant number of the community has genetic defects that might indicate incest, then wouldn't this be grounds for investigation? As far as I know incest is still illegal. Any species who inbreed to a major extent experience a bottleneck genetically and so why do we allow this in this day and age knowing what we know about genetics? One other thing that would be great to see - wishful thinking on my part - is women who are no longing in the FDLS suing the men for child support for the years they raised the children as "single" women on welfare.

[arendt]

29. No offense, but I don't want this thread to go there. I want to stick a label on the monsters...

running this criminal racket.

You will get nowhere with legal regulation of religion in this country. Hell, Christian Scientists let their kids die, and after a big legal fight, they get slaps on the wrist.

Freedom of religion has become a hidey-hole for every kind of pervert and mental defective in this country. (I am not saying ALL religious people are perverts.)

arendt

[fed_up_mother]

31. Living in Texas

I can assure you that there is plenty of outrage about these scam artists/rapists - from Southern Baptists, Catholics, my liberal episcopal neighbor down the street :) Etc.

We are especially outraged because these people normally have LOTS of money. Take a look at that "temple" they built. How does a group of a few hundred people afford to build something like that even if they are doing a lot of the labor themselves? Saw the machinery on site? They probably own it. Know how much that equipment costs? In the hundreds of thousands of dollars. They tend to run construction companies because all the free labor of those boys makes it a very profitable business.

[LibertyLover]

42. Good post and you've said exactly what has bothered me about

the situation. How about calling the men "welfare kings", right in line with slum lord?

[arendt]

44. It doesn't capture the polygamous creepiness/sexism of it all. n/t

[ljm2002]

47. Appreciate this and all your recent posts, arendt...

...but having thought about this awhile, I do think "welfare kings" is the frame that will work. No it does not capture all of the associated stuff, but on the other hand, it does allude to it in this way: the term "welfare queens" was coined to refer to women who had kids just to get welfare money. And that is exactly what these men were up to, w.r.t. the welfare system -- breeding children with unmarried women and then using the women's status as unwed moms to "bleed the beast". Therefore, using the term "welfare kings" to refer to them will conjure up the whole mess quite nicely, IMO.

[arendt]

53. What about "welfare prophets"? Captures the faux-religious angle.

IMHO, I don't think the men had the kids "just to get welfare money". I think that they wanted to screw submissive little girls, and they didn't care about the kids, except as future victims.

I think the money is secondary to the indictment of fundamentalism. That is why I think the meme MUST include the religious angle. I think "kings" lets these sickos off too lightly.

Also, I do not see how the term welfare kings will conjure up the sexual abuse. It just conjures up the money. It also is the most obvious, and therefore, the least eye-catching frame for this.

But feel free to expand on how the term kings will be sufficient.

BTW, thanks for being one of the few to address my initial request to discuss this meme.

arendt

[Karenina]

52. I admit I do have a problem

with the Caliph reference. In a perfect world it would equal "queen." However, the lines it draws make me uncomfortable. "Welfare Wasps" maybe?

[arendt]

54. I have recently suggested "welfare prohpets"...

Hi, Karenina-

Can you describe the feelings/associations about caliphs that make you uncomfortable. I don't think there has actually been a caliph for quite some time. (I will google and report back.) I think even the Moslems (especially the Turkish) do not look back fondly on at least certain Caliphates (there were many, and some were enlightened).

arendt

[arendt]

55. History: The last caliphate was the Ottoman Turkish, abolished by law in 1924

From Wikipedia article on caliph:

Ottoman rulers were known primarily by the title of Sultan.

...the first time the title of caliph was used as a political instead of symbolic religious title by the Ottomans was the peace treaty with Russia in 1774...the Ottomans under Abdulhamid I claimed a diplomatic victory, the recognition of themselves as protectors of Muslims in Russia as part of the peace treaty. This was the first time the Ottoman caliph was acknowledged as having political significance outside of Ottoman borders by a European power. As a consequence of this diplomatic victory, as the Ottoman borders were shrinking, the powers of the Ottoman caliph increased.

Around 1880 Sultan Abdulhamid II reasserted the title as a way of countering creeping European colonialism in Muslim lands. His claim was most fervently accepted by the Muslims of British India. By the eve of the First World War, the Ottoman state, despite its weakness vis-à-vis Europe, represented the largest and most powerful independent Islamic political entity. But the sultan also enjoyed some authority beyond the borders of his shrinking empire as caliph of Muslims in Egypt, India and Central Asia.

Abolition of the institution

On March 3, 1924, the Turkish Grand National Assembly, on the initiative of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, abolished the institution of the Caliphate, transferring its powers within Turkey to the Assembly.

Occasional demonstrations have been held calling for the reestablishment of the Caliphate.

I really don't see much difference between caliph and king, or emperor, at a political level. But caliph carries a religious and a polygamous connotation that I want to emphasize.

There just isn't a Western title that is theocratic and familial. The pope is (supposedly) celibate. What about the Greek Orthodox? Welfare prelate?

arendt

[Karenina]

56. Welfare prophets sits much better!

I need to rummage through my cyberkeller to find the info I'd like you to see. Tomorrow I'll have time.

[Karenina]

59. Stuff in English...

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002047.html

http://www.slate.com/id/2108246/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metin_Kaplan