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When Did We Fail?..A Call for A DU Debate

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Johnny Harpo Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 12:16 AM
Original message
When Did We Fail?..A Call for A DU Debate
In a recent post in General Discussion, entitled ‘This Country’s Done’. The original poster asked the question “When Did We Fail”? and went on to add “I suppose historians will debate it”.

Perhaps, it should be debated now by those of us who have lived through a lot of it, rather then later by future ‘historians’ who will draw their understandings of ‘our time’ from written or video records.

In the current history of the world, no country has come farther, faster or with greater success then the United States of America. The history of the rest of the world is often presented in cycles that spanned multiple hundreds and in some cases thousands of years.

In the case of the United States our cycles have come so quickly, especially since the beginning of the 20th Century and the advent of mass communication, that it is often difficult, if not impossible, to tell when one American cycle ends and another begins. Many times a new American cycle begins before the previous cycle is even complete.

Harry Truman was the President when I was born and so I have indeed lived through those instances that will be presented as considerations for where we could have possibly failed. In my early twenties I developed a love of history and have frequently read numerous accounts of how this country became what it is. I unashamedly consider myself an arm-chair (though admittedly amateur and opinionated) historian.

It should be noted, at the onset, when the idea of this country was conceived, it was conceived, for the most part by (regardless of their noble intentions and the correctness of their acts) individuals of relative wealth. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and their peers were not ‘poor’ by the standards of their day.

Thus the current (21st century) control of the majority of the wealth by a very small portion of the people, which now pains us every day, is not a new thorn in our side, but one that has been festering for over 200 years and whose pain may have distracted us from the issues at hand.

The infection that has resulted from that same thorn may well have brought us to the state in which we now find our nation. The critical symptoms of that infection, as viewed from the mid 20th century, may well be the points at which we have failed and are now offered up for debate on a point in time, by point in time format to the clearer and questioning minds of the Democratic Underground.

And so my friends: Where Might We Have Failed?

When ‘our boys’ came home from WW II, they certainly had enough of everything that was ugly and just wanted to get back to their normal lives. Not so many years later they elected “Ike” as their President, after all ‘our boys’ ‘liked Ike’ he had gotten them through a war, so he certainly could get them through the ensuing peace. So ‘our boys’ went to work, bought their GI houses, had their ‘boomer babys’, mowed their lawns, planted their roses, drove their new cars and left it up to “Ike”. What many of them didn’t do was ask at lot of questions, especially of their government.

Did We Fail Here?

Our ‘boys’, men now, had a second chance to elect a leader. John Kennedy was our first, noticeably, wealthy contemporary President. Youthful, educated and polished. ‘Our boys’ finally had a true WW II Navy hero who was ‘one of them’ running for President. Say, didn’t JFK’s old man make all his dough running boot-leg booze? (wink-wink). Supposedly Kennedy wanted to get us out of Viet Nam but there were some who didn’t want ‘Nam’ to end quite so soon. Thus, John F. Kennedy’s first term ended in a bloody mess on the streets of Dallas. And we waited for the Warren Report to tell us what really happened. But it took too long to publish and was way too thick to read. It was years before anyone noticed the many still unanswered questions and the loads of BS between the covers.

Did We Fail Here?

We elected Nixon on his second try (we didn’t want him the first time around) and we believed what he said, that ‘he was not a crook’. Little did we know that ‘opening up China’ would be opening the flood gates that would lead to the draining our economy. Little did we know, or care, that his ego and psyche were so fragile that he saw bad guys in every shadow and we ignored those who tired to tell us that ‘Tricky Dicky’ had a problem.

Did We Fail Here?

Now we come to Ford, a man who never sought the office, never ran in a Presidential campaign, never debated the ‘issues’ and never had a pledged delegate. As a matter of fact NO ONE EVEN VOTED FOR HIM! And no dissenting voices were raised in protest. In most other nations of the world, loud and clear calls would have been heard for an election. But not here! Why? Because that’s not the way it was done. Because the common consensus of the ‘big boys’ was that we, as a nation, could not stand the pain. So, Agnew resigned, and Ford was appointed, then Nixon resigned and Ford was sworn in. Never mind that not one American citizen ever cast a vote for him in a Presidential election. After all votes are minor technicalities.

Did We Fail Here?

We elect Carter, a different kind of President. We have had it with ‘business as usual‘ in Washington and decide that a change in direction is needed. Now we begin telling ourselves that our Presidents no longer need to have served in any Federal office prior to moving into the Oval Office. Now we figure if the guy could run a State he ought to be able to run a Nation. Now we are asking and electing: ‘Jimmy who?’ – Does he seem over-whelmed?

Did We Fail Here?

We elect Reagan. After all he was familiar to us and he did run California, a state whose economy is bigger then a lot of countries. We liked that he talked tough to the ’bad guys’ and spoke softly and kindly to us, like a Grandfather to a child that doesn’t know better. What we didn’t notice was the formation of a ‘shadow’ government. We received a set of minions answerable only to our leader, having almost unfettered powers to execute ‘private public policy’ as long as none of the fall-out reached the Oval Office. What we didn’t notice was the elimination of many of the ‘Federal Rules’ for Banks, Health Care, Insurance, and Airlines among others, that had for years kept us safe. What we didn’t notice were the arms being sent to whoever would fight the fight rather then us. That they might be the ’bad guys escaped out notice. What we didn’t notice was that the stuff that was supposed to ‘trickle down’ smelled really bad. What we did notice were the jobs that started to disappear.

Did We Fail Here?

We elect Bush-41 and receive continuity within the Executive Branch of our government. Never mind that he was the former head of the CIA, how could that possibly hurt us? Funny how around this time, all of J. Edger Hoover’s files disappeared. Funny how he managed to get us into a war in an area of the world loaded with oil. Hey, didn’t he used to be an ‘Oil Man’ and a ‘big business-man’. Wait, wasn’t he both? How could that be bad? And just what does this Carlyle group do anyhow? Funny how the economy seems to work different, funny how jobs continue to disappear.

Did We Fail Here?

We elect Clinton, who told us not to stop thinking about tomorrow because it would soon be here, and he knew and understood that the American people were tired of ‘business as usual’. There’s that phrase again. We were pleased when the ‘Big Dog’ said he was going to straighten out the health care mess and we were saddened when he gave that job to someone who couldn’t get it done. We were pleased when he said that America needed trade agreements that would level the playing field and make American workers competitive in a global economy. Jobs still continued to disappear, but the American worker did become competitive, for the few jobs that did remain. We were beside ourselves when he balanced the budget and put the country in the black for the first time in decades. And finally, we were appalled, when a moral lapse in judgment forced impeachment hearings upon us and embarrassed us in front of the entire world. One would have thought he could have afforded to get a room. Little did we dream of the embarrassment that would come in the future? Maybe we did stop thinking about tomorrow.

Did We Fail Here?

The Supreme Court elected Bush-43, a ‘President’ who swore to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. I guess we missed that sly wink and his crossed fingers as he placed his hand upon the Bible. We then had to watch and listen while he tore our Constitution into shreds and used it as toilet paper. We continued to watch and listen while he and his entire cabinet lied and took us into a war that wasn’t necessary. We shook our heads when we realized that he couldn’t say or even spell the word ‘economy’ and watched ours fall farther and faster then we could have ever imagined, and our jobs just keep on leaving, and our Congress sat by and did nothing. There is not enough time or computer memory to list what we got with this ‘President’. All of it is too painful, too horrible, too embarrassing and too recent to forget. What has happened to our country in the last 7 years will be burned in history forever.

We DID Fail Here! (sorry this one is a no-brainer)

We are now presented with candidates for President who say they know that the American people are tired of ‘business as usual’ (where have we heard that before?). Candidates who say that they know the war, the economy, health care, social security, the job market, inter-national relationships and every part of our government is a mess. And they claim they know how to fix it!

What are these candidate’s qualifications for being given the most powerful job in the world? We are still finding out. It is simply amazing to me that when the full power of the Democratic Underground is brought to bear, a situation or individual can be completely vetted in about 48 hours. Yet we still do not know the full ‘story’ about the next person, who could possibly lead the free world,

So now we are faced with making the most important decision a voter in the United States can make when they enter the voting booth.

No! This time it is not who will be our next President.

This time it is: ‘Will We Fail Here?’

Let the debate begin.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. A very heavy question.
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 12:30 AM by calimary
Too overwhelming for me to deal with at the moment, but I wanted to kick this to keep it from sinking.

But it's a good question to ask. I think many of us here have already begun to kick this one around, especially as we survey the wreckage of the past seven-and-some years. I'm personally concerned about the overriding reaction that seems to dominate the thinking of most of our leaders, including the good ones: The expressed wish to "move on." The past is the past. Let's not dig up old bones and pick at old scabs. Don't dwell on the past. Old news! Been there, done that. Nothing new. Move on. The past is no indicator of future events or reactions. Let's just move forward. That's the ticket. Move along now. Let's find The Way Forward. We need to move forward - not look back. Waste of time. Nothing to see there. Move along.

I am deathly afraid that this will be the overriding sentiment, pushed HARD by the media and a whole host of talking heads who just won't want to go back and revisit what's gone on, to understand it better so as not to make the same mistakes again. Just move forward. To hell with the past! Don't look back! Waste of time. Nothing to see back there. Let's just pick up the pieces and move on. What's to be gained from just beating ourselves up over the past? We can't do anything about the past. Screw the past anyway! Move FORWARD!!!

And We Cannot Afford To Be So Blase, So NUMB! We HAVE to look back. We HAVE to try to understand what happened, how so many of us were completely snookered, and yes, how we failed. We will be doomed to stay on this same treadmill forever if we don't take stock, and try fully to nail where we failed. And how we failed. We can't just gloss over it and try to put it behind us. It Matters!!!!!

I'm afraid Obama will do exactly that, though. Certainly Hillary won't want to revisit old sins. And mcsame? HAH! Yeah. Like he'd do the correct thing. He's a republi-CON. It's just not in him.

Oh, btw - Welcome to DU!!!
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Failing in what respect?
A country build by stealing a continent from those that lived there before, by ethnocides beyond any comparison, a glorious nation based on admiration and imitation of the murderous empire of Rome, when did it fail?
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Exactly...
I believe that what saved us from being completely barbaric was our constitution and bill of rights and the American myth of goodness and fairness we have told ourselves about ourselves. And fortunately, for the past 200+ years, the majority has believed in those documents and those myths and have kept the balance of good acts over the bad acts. What is frightening about the last 7 years... the bad actors have tipped the scales dangerously to their side. Our myths and our documents are being called into question.

Welcome to DU!
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Thanks for the welcome
There may be also something to the collective psychology theory (Jungian Shadow projection?) that the "American myth of goodness" or reinventing American innocense again and again and again through very short and selective memory is what keeps nice folks like yous repeating horrible sins agains nature and mankind again and again and again - ever so innocently. God of Vengeance is not a happy thought, but there may be some truth to that myth also, dunno. Would rather not know that or anything, just be blisfully ignorant and innocent... :D
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Self Delete - put under the wrong response
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 07:28 AM by ThomWV
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. thought provoking post and Welcome to DU
the fall of a civilization, interesting times.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. The failure started...
When we began to admire and lionize the worst qualities extent in people. I have long thought that a lot of blame could be laid at the feet of Robin Leach and "Lifestyles of The Rich and Famous". That show perverted a lot of people.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Leach was a product of the Regan "Greed" years, not the cause
But I get your point.

"Flip that House" could also be held up as a mirror on the ills of society.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think there's actually two questions here.
When did we fail morally, and when did we fail to the extent that we became substantially weaker in the world. I think there is certainly a connection between the two, though really it took some time to manifest. The answer to the first question, "when did we fail morally" is tricky. I can say for sure that it happened after Truman and before the beginning of Viet Nam, but exactly when is tricky. By the time Kennedy was assassinated, the moral corruption had reached the highest levels of power, and it was over except for the details.

The reason the first question is so hard is the nature of the failure. It came largely from the fascist movements of Europe, but the virulent strain of failure that caught on here much much more secretive and subtle, much more rooted in the cryptocracy of the elite. So the details simply aren't known. What is known is that what Bush I emerged as the front for a group of people who had been holding and cultivating power for a great deal of time, and moving on a well orchestrated plan with many many actors. So like the big bang, we can see the after effects much more easily than the original thing itself.

As far as the point where the American nation state failed and started losing power in the world, I think historians will put that somewhere between 2005 and 2012. The total dependence of the culture on expansion and cheap energy in a time of global resource shortage will be to blame. We're just too damn inefficient, and too damn corrupt.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. K&R Good questions. Welcome to DU! nt
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
8. We failed with Reagan, the Republican's failed earlier.
From the gut.
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Spurt Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
12. k&r
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
13. We failed when we masked a tax revolt as a "fight for freedom" in 1776
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 09:46 AM by Lydia Leftcoast
We were lucky in that the Founders were educated men who believed in human rights and all that good stuff (except as it pertained to their slaves and the women in their families, of course, but they were enlightened for their time) and who crafted a Constitution that embodied those ideals.

But basically, the Revolution was a tax revolt and resentment of the British treaties with the Native Americans that banned settlement west of the Appalachians. That's the freedom that the average colonist in the street wanted, freedom not to pay taxes to the British government and freedom to steal more land from the Native Americans, no matter how you dress it up.

So this country has been of two minds from the beginning. On the one hand, we have those ideals of freedom and equality that have inspired the world, even when we haven't practiced them. On the other hand, we have an underlying greed and racism that surface whenever the people at the top encourage them or give tacit permission for them.

Thus persecuted people from around the world have sought refuge here and continue to do so. However, it is distressingly easy for demagogues in the media to appeal to greed and racism in the service of the elites. Our successful "revolution" (actually what the Marxists would call a "bourgeois revolution") also convinced us that the answer to our problems lay in armed conflict.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
14. It's an ongoing, recurring series of failures..namely, indifference, which leads to inaction
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