White Privilege.

[lightningandsnow]

I keep bringing this up, yet so few people refuse to acknowledge it. I'm white (if you really must know) - but I have to take ownership of the systemic racism present in our society. As do a lot of other people who usually refuse to.

So, for your reading pleasure, the White Privilege Checklist. I didn't write it - it's from http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

Racism exists. Period.

[gabeana]

1. thanks for sharing N/T

[Ordr]

2. I guess you just won some new black friends.

Or something.

[buff2]

3. It's shit like this that keep the racism alive and well

Proud of yourself? :grr:

[lightningandsnow]

4. Explain?

[buff2]

5. Read your post

I think you can figure it out.

[lightningandsnow]

7. Discussion of racism creates racism?

I honestly think we need to keep stuff like this out in the open.

[buff2]

8. We are already hated enough

This shit just keeps fanning the flames.

[lightningandsnow]

9. Who's "we"?

and how is it fanning the flames?

[acmavm]

35. Oh cripes, drop the act. You're just begging for people to tell you

what a great humanitarian you are an nominate you for a Nobel. You sound like a legend in your own mind.

[yardwork]

40. How rude.

[acmavm]

45. Oh crap. I'm sick of all this fake angst. Let's go this person one

(or a hundred) better.

Let's go back to the fucking beginning of time and straighten it ALL out. Let's see, where shall we start? Who was the first fucking prehistoric man that whacked another one over the head and took over his cave and his woman? Lets make the Norwegians and Danes apologize for the Norseman's raid all over the coast of Ireland and Britian. They sold their captives into slavery, didn't they? Oh hell, then there's the Greeks and the Romans. Holy shit, there's a whole lot of apologizin' to do. The Mongol Hordes, the Lombards, you name it, let's make EVERYONE get down on their knees and apologize for shit that they HAD NOT ONE DAMN THING TO DO WITH. Yeah buddy, we can go back in our little time machines and erase history, have one big fucking historical (or hysterical) redo.

And hell, I'm a woman. All you clowns with a little dangly thang between you legs, you better start saying I'm sorry. NOW!

That enough apologizing for ya? We'd betted get busy, time's a wastin'.

Because if you don't think everybody owes EVERYBODY an apology, then you're friggin' crazy. And if you think you or me or the OP can undo what people who aren't even alive anymore did, you're crazier than I'm giving you credit for being.

I am only responsible for myself. And idiotic shit like this just feeds the fuel of those that think otherwise.

[Ordr]

47. Amen.

n/t

[treestar]

53. We could all end up apologizing to ourselves

My English side has some apologizing to do to my Irish side. :rofl:

[acmavm]

56. Exactly! Does your Irish side hold a grudge?

Mine does. And it's demanding reparations.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

65. It's not about apologies.

It's accepting that white people have an advantage in this country due to their ethnicity.

No, it's not your fault, or any white person's fault, for being born the way they are. However, recognizing that white skin does confer certain privileges on you is essential.

You might think, "Well, the white garbageman doesn't seem to have an advantage," or something along those lines. True, he is at a socioeconomic disadvantage, but compare him to the black garbageman, who not only has to deal with his poor economic standing, but also his ethnicity, in society.

White privilege is not something that makes itself obvious or confers clear-cut, tangible rewards -- rather, it's the absence of the non-white experience: The "rewards" of being white come at the expense of not being white.

[acmavm]

75. Well, a black garbageman is seen as being of more worth than

an white woman. And woman of color are seen as being even lower on the 'privilege' totem pole. What do we do? When does America start to feel 'our' pain?

Nuts.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

83. There's male/white-male privilege as well.

[noamnety]

157. I'm not sure what you are comparing.

A black garbageman to a white garbage man would be the comparison when talking about white privilege.

A garbage Man to a garbage Woman when talking about Male privilege.

I think it's very helpful to draw those comparisons in order to help people see the connections. But also, I think it's destructive to try to set that up as a competition, if the intent is to disrupt a discussion of white privilege to marginalize the issues that people of color face.

And yes, women of color, they lack both those privileges and have other crap heaped upon them as well.

[treestar]

77. I accept that, now what is to be done about it?

We have affirmative action laws. We have laws against discrimination.

If I have a job to fill and hire a less qualified white person when I know of a more qualified minority, that person can sue me for it.

What else must be done? We had to know it could not work overnight. If it's not working fast enough, then what else must be done?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

84. That's an excellent question.

Sadly, many of the items on the OP's checklist are de facto ideas, not de jure ones, so anti-discrimination legislation is hardly a panacea.

It's damn near impossible to change someone's mind about racism, or to change society as a whole so they become aware of it.

However, I believe every idea in our society starts at the individual level. We have to get everyone to understand white privilege/male privilege, etc., and the first step is to have individuals recognize this idea. Only then can we even attempt to change it and ourselves.

No, I'm not holding out for a miracle in this instance, given the enormous nature of the task, but if we start at the smallest level, perhaps we can effect *some* change -- and that's better than the situation we find ourselves in now.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

87. Okay.

Well, regarding your work situation, I'd have to know more specifics -- I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you're making it out to be.

As for the HGTV point, I fail to see what that has to do with anything. First, the majority of people buying homes on those shows are white, not black or any other minority.

And Barack Obama is the first AA candidate with a legitimate shot at the presidency -- I don't recall Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson or Carol Moseley-Braun having this level of success. And considering an AA may be our next president is not something you should lash out against -- you should be wondering why it took hundreds of years to happen.

BTW, putting up Oprah, Beyonce and other AA entertainers as proof of that group's progress is like pointing out Paris Hilton as representative of white people's success.

But to your question of how white privilege benefits you, you can refer to the list in the OP, or I can give you a couple of examples right now:

Have the cops ever pulled you over for being in the "wrong neighborhood"?

Do some white people clutch their purses while you innocently walk by them?

Have you been told by someone in a surprising tone that you "speak well," and are forced to take it as a compliment?

And FYI, I'm not black, in case you were wondering.

[ArtieBoy]

105. Rebuttal

BTW, putting up Oprah, Beyonce and other AA entertainers as proof of that group's progress is like pointing out Paris Hilton as representative of white people's success.

Right. Paris Hilton doesn't represent my life, Oprah doesn't represent theirs. We each have over-rewarded celebrities to look to. That's very equal.

Have you been told by someone in a surprising tone that you "speak well," and are forced to take it as a compliment?

No, I hear "You're from Georgia? You sure don't sound like you're from the South." I finally started wondering why I always say "thanks" when people say that.

And Barack Obama is the first AA candidate with a legitimate shot at the presidency -- I don't recall Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson or Carol Moseley-Braun having this level of success.

Michael Dukakis and Walter Mondale also never had that level of success, along with hundreds of others. I've been wondering why there haven't been any Greek-American presidents, or Italian-American presidents, or any Vietnam vet presidents for that matter, haven't you? Of course you haven't.

No, you're not black. You're probably early-to-mid-20's college student or recent grad who recently took some sort of sociology class where you've read about bus boycotts and church burnings. You wear old thrift store finds to your "non-corporate," anti-Starbucks coffehouse hangout to show your empathy with the poor and downtrodden (though you're going to a fairly pricey school on your parent's dime). You hope everyone will applaud your newfound sense of white shame, although I think you're coming up thin for applause here.

But my black supervisor (with a beach house in San Diego as well as her Atlanta home), the black mayor and city council of my city, the black people in the $350,000 homes I used to drive a delivery van to while I made $9.25 an hour, and the black women who drive their husband's BMW's, Lexuses and Mercedes SUV's to work here, probably feel they don't need your tears and pity. Thanks for the offer, though.

http://www.artsbarandgrill.net">Art's Bar & Grill -- my blog.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

106. Keep digging.

Your first post implied that since Beyonce, Oprah, etc. are successful, black people as a whole are, too.

No, I hear "You're from Georgia? You sure don't sound like you're from the South." I finally started wondering why I always say "thanks" when people say that.

Not even close to the point I was making.

Michael Dukakis and Walter Mondale also never had that level of success, along with hundreds of others. I've been wondering why there haven't been any Greek-American presidents, or Italian-American presidents, or any Vietnam vet presidents for that matter, haven't you? Of course you haven't.

Dukakis and Mondale are still WHITE. We don't categorize African-Americans by country of origin, so why would we do the same for whites?

No, you're not black. You're probably early-to-mid-20's college student or recent grad who recently took some sort of sociology class where you've read about bus boycotts and church burnings. You wear old thrift store finds to your "non-corporate," anti-Starbucks coffehouse hangout to show your empathy with the poor and downtrodden (though you're going to a fairly pricey school on your parent's dime). You hope everyone will applaud your newfound sense of white shame, although I think you're coming up thin for applause here.

I'm not white, either, genius. I graduated from college awhile ago and support myself with a full-time job.

But my black supervisor (with a beach house in San Diego as well as her Atlanta home), the black mayor and city council of my city, the black people in the $350,000 homes I used to drive a delivery van to while I made $9.25 an hour, and the black women who drive their husband's BMW's, Lexuses and Mercedes SUV's to work here, probably feel they don't need your tears and pity. Thanks for the offer, though.

Yes, these particular African-Americans seem to be doing well, but they are not representative of AA success overall.

And by the way, no matter how wealthy they may be, they still face the reality of being black in America.

EDIT to add: You didn't answer these questions from my earlier post:

Have the cops ever pulled you over for being in the "wrong neighborhood"?

Do some white people clutch their purses while you innocently walk by them?

[sergeiAK]

107. You didn't ask

but I'll answer:
"Have the cops ever pulled you over for being in the "wrong neighborhood"?

Do some white people clutch their purses while you innocently walk by them?"

Yes and yes. And I'm a white male.

[ArtieBoy]

126. "Not indicative overall."

So I pointed out lots of black people, like Condoleeza or Oprah to name only two, who have very prominent positions of power in our country.

But this isn't good enough for you.

I pointed out my black supervisor has two houses, that I've been in very plush neighborhoods with French windows and circular drives that I couldn't hope to move into, where most of the residents were black. And I pointed out black people I work with who drive BMW's, Merecedes and Lexuses. The government of my city being almost exclusively composed of black people.

But this isn't good enough for you.

So let me guess what will be good enough for you: when 10% of the population holds 100% of the government and corporate supervisory positions. When every last black person in America makes $50,000 a year or more. Until then, everyone's still suffering "racism" in your book.

In MY book, Reginald Denny took a brick in the face for all white men's sins in the early `90's, and it was over then and there. In MY book, the United Negro College Fund is a privilege, BET is a privilege, Affirmative Action is a privilege, beauty contests that only feature black women are a privilege, black comedians on Def Comedy Jam who can mock white people with impunity are a privilege, movie titles like "White Men Can't Jump" are a privilege, and black preachers who can get government tax breaks while ranting against white Americans, like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, are a privilege. And political candidates who get a free pass from the press (until last week) and the overwhelming support of their people are experiencing a privilege.

I've been pulled over for what I felt were ridiculous reasons. Why did they pick me? I don't know. When I had long hair I saw women clutching their purses. If 10% of the population is 80% of the prison population I think that might explain some of that.

If you've read this far, here's my big question: why is it a "conversation about race" always means black vs. white? Indians are brown and a smaller minority than blacks, who were made second-class citizens in their own country. So why don't we hear them talking about racism? They just blow us away at math and get all the IT jobs! Same with Koreans, Chinese and Japanese. I only hear this "inequality" stuff out of black people as they blow past me in their Mercedes with a Blackberry to their ear and a iPhone on their hip.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

132. I think you meant to reply to me.

And again, you are missing the point entirely.

Pointing out a small handful of wealthy and successful African-Americans does not diminish or negate the plight of African-Americans at large, no more than Donald Trump and Paris Hilton negate or diminish the plight of average white people.

So let me guess what will be good enough for you: when 10% of the population holds 100% of the government and corporate supervisory positions. When every last black person in America makes $50,000 a year or more. Until then, everyone's still suffering "racism" in your book.

Again, not even remotely what I was saying. And to imply 100% financial success among African-Americans will eliminate racism is incredibly naive, and that's my point -- no matter how rich or famous some African-Americans are, they still will live with the fact that they are black in America.

Barack Obama is doing incredibly well. Do you think the "n-word" has never been used to describe him by some people? Even in the Ohio primary, a fair amount of people said race was an important factor in their vote -- in 2008.

In MY book, Reginald Denny took a brick in the face for all white men's sins in the early `90's, and it was over then and there. In MY book, the United Negro College Fund is a privilege, BET is a privilege, Affirmative Action is a privilege, beauty contests that only feature black women are a privilege, black comedians on Def Comedy Jam who can mock white people with impunity are a privilege, movie titles like "White Men Can't Jump" are a privilege, and black preachers who can get government tax breaks while ranting against white Americans, like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, are a privilege. And political candidates who get a free pass from the press (until last week) and the overwhelming support of their people are experiencing a privilege.

What happened to Reginald Denny was unconscionable and wrong. In fact, I rank him highly as a human being, particularly since he said he bore no ill will towards his attackers. Personally, I would not be so forgiving under the circumstances, so kudos to him for rising above his situation.

Do you know why BET, the United Negro College Fund, etc. exist? It's because those opportunities were scarce or nonexistent for black people, and in many cases, still are. There are "White Entertainment Networks" -- they're called NBC, CBS, ABC and most of cable television. I'm still puzzled by a show like "Friends," which featured almost no prominent minorities of any stripe, despite taking place in New York City, the most diverse place in the world.

How many predominately AA shows are on basic cable? Aside from UPN's roster, I can't think of one. And with the exception of "Ugly Betty," I can't think of a majority-Hispanic basic-cable show, either.

I've been pulled over for what I felt were ridiculous reasons. Why did they pick me? I don't know. When I had long hair I saw women clutching their purses. If 10% of the population is 80% of the prison population I think that might explain some of that.

And many black people are pulled over simply because they're in the "wrong neighborhood." Has that ever happened to you?

80% of the prison population is not African-American. They do make up a sizable portion of the population, but many of them are there because of our racist, hopeless drug war, which you may want to educate yourself about. Many are imprisoned for simple possession while wealthy white people who can afford competent lawyers get off.

There's also the enormous disparity of crack vs. cocaine sentencing: 5 grams of crack will net you the same sentence as 500 grams of cocaine:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/07/05/the_disparity_on_crack_cocaine_sentencing/

If you've read this far, here's my big question: why is it a "conversation about race" always means black vs. white? Indians are brown and a smaller minority than blacks, who were made second-class citizens in their own country. So why don't we hear them talking about racism? They just blow us away at math and get all the IT jobs! Same with Koreans, Chinese and Japanese. I only hear this "inequality" stuff out of black people as they blow past me in their Mercedes with a Blackberry to their ear and a iPhone on their hip.

The conversation should include everybody, but the most pressing division is between black and white. You only need to look at this nation's history to see that.

And FYI, I am of Indian descent. Believe me, we talk about racism against us, particularly in the aftermath of 9/11, when many of us have been mistaken for Arabs. Our numbers are small, so it's more difficult for us to get our message out -- we don't have the equivalent of La Raza or the NAACP, or at least no organization of that magnitude.

But what really saddens me is to see you creating fake straw men out of stereotypes you witness and applying them to an entire ethnic group. I really feel sorry for you.

[ArtieBoy]

137. I'm not making these examples up

You're determined to think I'm making up stories and "straw man arguments," but everything I've presented you with is actual examples of people I know from my real life. Stick your head in the sand if you want, but it's true.

Ah, and you're Indian? Did you rely on a United Indian College Fund for your schooling? Or are you like the few Indian people I've made the acquaintance of, you're just very studious and have a knack for engineering and the like? Good for you, whatever the case. I wish I was mathematically inclined. It didn't come in my charter of white privileges, unfortunately.

ABC, CBS and NBC are hardly "white networks." Cosby, Wayans, Urkel, Moesha Raven...okay I don't keep up with TV much, but I'm CERTAIN I've seen black faces on my TV lately. How about at least 50% of our local news reporters and anchors?

Indians are a great example of my contention that racism is overblown, as well as Asians. Did you know in California there's reverse Affirmative Action, where there's actually a CAP on the number of Asian students that can be allowed into the universities because they blow everyone else away on entrance exams?! Now THAT I will acknowledge is discrimination.

Oh, well...I've taken up enough space on this boad, and this debate is turning into a part-time job. Time to turn in for the night. Let me turn down my sheets of white privilege and snuggle in...

[Starbucks Anarchist]

139. No, you're using your personal anecdotes as indicative of an entire group.

Ah, and you're Indian? Did you rely on a United Indian College Fund for your schooling? Or are you like the few Indian people I've made the acquaintance of, you're just very studious and have a knack for engineering and the like? Good for you, whatever the case. I wish I was mathematically inclined. It didn't come in my charter of white privileges, unfortunately.

I see your stereotypes cross ethnic lines. I am not in the engineering field or anything resembling it, and math is my worst subject by far.

ABC, CBS and NBC are hardly "white networks." Cosby, Wayans, Urkel, Moesha Raven...okay I don't keep up with TV much, but I'm CERTAIN I've seen black faces on my TV lately. How about at least 50% of our local news reporters and anchors?

First of all, all those shows have been off the air for some time now. Secondly, current AA shows account for a tiny fraction of all programming. Do you know what the "white shows" are on those networks? Here's a clue -- the rest of them.

And the fact that you're "certain" you've seen black shows means you actually had to recall seeing them -- they weren't ubiquitous like all-white or mostly-white shows you could think of at the drop of a hat.

Indians are a great example of my contention that racism is overblown, as well as Asians. Did you know in California there's reverse Affirmative Action, where there's actually a CAP on the number of Asian students that can be allowed into the universities because they blow everyone else away on entrance exams?! Now THAT I will acknowledge is discrimination.

I just told you that Indians, like all groups, face racism. Don't lecture me about how I feel I am sometimes treated because of my ethnicity.

Oh, well...I've taken up enough space on this boad, and this debate is turning into a part-time job. Time to turn in for the night. Let me turn down my sheets of white privilege and snuggle in...

With your proto-racist, misanthropic rantings, posting on this board probably is your only job. I can't see you serving society in any sort of productive manner.

And your sheets have holes in them. :eyes:

[ArtieBoy]

166. My sheets are new

No, my sheets don't have holes in them. They're fairly new. Oh, I see, because I think racism is overblown and think reverse racism is becoming more and more the norm, I'm "in the Klan," huh? Oh, ho ho, you card!

As I said, I don't recall every TV show on the air these days. There are black people on about 100% of the TV shows I see, though.

Oh, and sorry I gave you credit where none was due. Congratulations on breaking that horrible "good at math and engineering" stereotype that you're burdened with. It must be really tough to deal with.

Well, per your stereotypes of me, I'll get back to dominating the earth and oppressing any minorities I see. Thanks for the debate!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

171. Thanks for the pizza!

:rofl:

[DarkTirade]

172. ... *snort* *chortle*

:rofl:

[noamnety]

191. oh!

Thanks Mods!!!

[RadiationTherapy]

192. Whoooooa. That was...maaaannn. CrayTzy with a capital t.

[Zodiak]

197. Artie, your arguments are classic 21st Century racism

Focused on "reverse racism" and affirmative action as the evils of the country while never acknowledging we still have a LONG way to go towards equality. You also spouted off some stereotypes, as well....nice going! I am surprised Starbucks had the patience to even deal with you.

[noamnety]

152. When I see people resorting to racist stereotypes

I alert on their posts. This would include things like implying that black mothers are crack addicts, or that there's something offensive about minorities being more successful than white people - especially when those successful minorities don't act "white" enough - when they do things like *gasp* having hair styles white people don't generally wear. :eyes:

I don't think those people are capable of understanding concepts like "Many are imprisoned for simple possession while wealthy white people who can afford competent lawyers get off."

They're kind of stuck in the "don't do the crime (if you aren't white)" mentality.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

155. Exactly.

It's very depressing.

[noamnety]

146. This is quite the statement.

"in MY book, Reginald Denny took a brick in the face for all white men's sins in the early `90's, and it was over then and there."

That was a reaction to the beating of Rodney King, who took that beating for the sin of being black. What page is that on in your book? Was it all over then and there for you? Was it all over for you when the four officers who assaulted him were acquitted?

Or is your book conveniently missing those pages, and picks up only at the moment of backlash - and ends real quick right there?

Short book, I'm guessing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

165. why is it a "conversation about race" always means black vs. white?

Hate to get involved but you have not been paying attention

The conversation is also carried out in Spanish... yep them latinos

In Ydish, Jews.. yep outwardly may look white to you, (Though some are black or brown, surprised? Perhaps) but there are still quotas for colleges out there, especially the Ivy League, less significant than they used to be, but there you have it... and illegally many property deeds still read not to be sold to Jews, Irish or blacks, at times they add Italians to the mix.

Insert here indian language... and insert here reservation... yep, alive and well


And finally YOU are doing it... many whites, especially young white males, feel at a severe disadvantage because of Equal Opportunity

I look forwards to the day those laws are no longer necessary... but that ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. Why? Race is still playing a role in this country at multiple levels

In fact, this conversation is exactly about race

By the way... until I open my mouth in a store I don't grow a tail. Once I open my mouth I can spot security a mile away these days. And yes, I look white by any indication.

[Karenina]

183. Nana!!! BWHAHAHAHA!!!

:rofl: Your reference will soar over so many heads!!! :rofl:

[wellst0nev0ter]

120. Jheri-Curls?

If you are trying to make your story believeable, please remember which era we're living in :eyes:

[ArtieBoy]

127. I kid you not

I'm pretty certain that was Jehri-Curl cream. Her hair always looked wavy and moist, isn't that a sign? And her name was tattooed on her arm. In case she ever forgot it, I guess.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yardwork]

70. I really don't understand your level of anger about this.

I'm female, too. I'm also lesbian. I've read some pretty nasty crap here on DU about gay people. I don't like it. I don't like seeing racist crap, either, even though I'm white.

[SammyWinstonJack]

82. ...

:thumbsup:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. so the truth should be hidden because its inconvenient?

[acmavm]

34. What 'truth' would that be?

[kwassa]

124. This truth about the advantages whites have

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/23/AR2008032301417.html?sub=AR

The average black person in America is 447 percent more likely to be imprisoned than the average white person, and 521 percent more likely to be murdered. Blacks earn 60 cents to the dollar compared with whites who have the same education levels and marital status. The black poverty rate is nearly twice the white poverty rate. Blacks tend to die five years earlier than whites; the infant mortality rate among black babies is nearly 1 1/2 times the rate among white babies. And because of long-standing patterns of inheritance, blacks and whites begin life with substantial disparities in family wealth.

[ArtieBoy]

129. If there's a privilege to be had, I'll take it

Here's the first secret I'll let you in on: if I can get an advantage out of being white, I'll take it! Life's too tough to not take every benefit you can, either real or imagined in the mind of a guilt-ridden honky.

1.) "The average black person in America is 447 percent more likely to be imprisoned than the average white person."

Don't do the crime and you won't have to do the time.

2.) Blacks tend to die five years earlier than whites

This is because of black-on-black crime, not white-on-black. See #1 for how to curb this.

3.) "The infant mortality rate among black babies is nearly 1 1/2 times the rate among white babies."

Wow, and there are no "whites only" signs barring us from going to the same hospitals, where the staff HAS to provide some kind of care! Do you guess the incidence of black babies being born to crack-addled single mothers and so on has anything to do with that?

4.) And because of long-standing patterns of inheritance, blacks and whites begin life with substantial disparities in family wealth.

Oh, yeah. I've inherited out the ass. I'm writing this from the family jet on my way to our vacation compound in Monaco. Nah, I'm pulling your leg. My parents grew up with outhouses, no heat, cookstoves, etc. Not a lot to hand down. Sorry to blow your ivory tower fantasy.

[acmavm]

161. Not all whites by any means share that 'advantage'. Not by a longshot.

And Obama sure as shit never even came close.

[Karenina]

184. You seem to have skimmed over his central point somehow...

that the anger on one side and the resentment on the other, (which are interchangeable) BOTH must be addressed.

[acmavm]

162. Not all whites by any means share that 'advantage'. Not by a longshot.

And Obama sure as shit never even came close.

[EFerrari]

185. There is a group of folks that can't tell the difference between the two.nt

[AirmensMom]

18. Why is that?

[Hugabear]

20. Actually, it's RACISM that keeps racism alive and well

Pretending it doesn't exist won't help anything at all.

Seems like you'd prefer to bury your head in the sand and hope that it just goes away by itself?

[treestar]

49. Pretty much. That's the way most whites see it, isn't it?

Or they believe it is no longer a problem.

[shanti]

27. you are SO wrong!

:mad: addressing it is the only way to force people to face their racism! keep your head in the sand, ok?

[yardwork]

39. Defensive much?

If this list bothers you so much, maybe you should read it again and think about it some more.

P.S. Since it probably matters to you, I'll mention that I'm white.

[BlooInBloo]

41. Nah - it's white folks who pretend it doesn't exist (the vast majority) that keeps it alive.

[HEyHEY]

95. depends what kind of racism

Systematic racism, yes. Racism in general is a personal choice.

[Deep13]

204. Sure, blame the messanger.

:eyes:

[dembotoz]

6. we do take a lot for granted

[-..__...]

10. I can honestly say that I feel nothing is owed to me.

[lightningandsnow]

11. hmm.

I don't think it's a question of "owing" anyone anything.

It's a question of looking at a system, and trying to change it.

[-..__...]

25. That's assuming that it's always the system that is at fault.

[Zynx]

54. Many of those problems outlined there won't change until the country's basic

racial makeup changes. This goes for European countries too in an even more extreme way as they are typically 85%+ white or more. Some are more like 95%.

[zorahopkins]

12. Add Male Privilige To This List

If you add Male Privilege to this list, you come up with what it is like to be a white male in this society.

[Ordr]

13. Do you know this from experience?

[zorahopkins]

22. I Am A Victim Of White Male Privilege

I am a vicitm of White Male Privilege.

During my entire career of more than 40 years, I was discriminated against in salary, working conditions, and job assignments.

All the goodies were given by white males to other white males.

When I complained, by complaints were handled by white males.

When I was fired, it was by a white male.

[Ordr]

26. So this reflects the entirety of society?

[treestar]

50. Well, come in, it's still there

Sexism is still alive and well to some extent. Things have improved over the past 30 years, but women still aren't paid for the same work as much as men.

Trying to put myself in male shoes, I would say that it is more complex than racism, though.

1. I get paid full market value for my work.
2. People take me seriously.

but then again,

1. I have to be able to support myself, but also my wife and children. My wife can help but it's ultimately my responsibility.
2. I have to be gentler with women than I am with men, so if I am dealing with a woman in business, that puts me at a disadvantage.

[LanternWaste]

79. Anecdotally, maybe, maybe not.

Anecdotally, maybe, maybe not.

But I think we could easily point to some peer-reviewed research studies illustrating that white males do have the edge... or rather, a number of edges not available to minorities and women.

[lightningandsnow]

15. Totally.

That's another topic, although I think racism, sexism, ableism, classism, homophobia and other biases all kind of play off each other.

I think I remember seeing a "Male Privilege Checklist" either in the Women's Rights Forum or the Feminist Group. (Can't remember which one)

[Ordr]

17. Any more -isms that you're missing?

[lightningandsnow]

19. Probably a lot.

[treestar]

78. Then in the end the majority of the people in this country are victims

Which is not a good thing. And why is that so, as a majority? White male privilege is highly threatened in this situation. And it has receded. Condi wouldn't have her job if it had not. How much more powerful is she than millions of white men? And a zillion other examples. There are more women lawyers and doctors and Senators than there used to be. In fact it is not unbelievable to think that in the next generation, the Senate could be around 50% female.

In the 70s a female lawyer was a rare thing. Now the law schools have more women than men. I can't sit here and complain that sexism hasn't receded considerably.

[selador]

72. i once wrote a paper on female privilege

it was somewhat tongue in cheek, but among other thigns i noted that men

1) die youunger
2) are more likely ot be the victims of violent crime
3) are more likely to be in prison
4) are more likely to be mentally committed
5) are more likely to die in the workplace
6) are less likely to get parental custody in divorce
7) can get drafted
8) do worse in school
9) are more likely to get sent to the principals office
10) are more likely to receive discipline in school

etc.

lists are PHUN!

[HEyHEY]

97. I'll remember that next time I have to hock a guitar to eat.

[slackmaster]

14. This makes me so angry I don't know how to respond

:argh:

[lightningandsnow]

16. Why does it make you angry?

[slackmaster]

21. I'm angry because my stupid job rousted me out of REM sleep

I have to work my white male ass off all day and all week, and the idea of someone saying I have some kind of special privilege because of factors I have no control over just sticks in my craw.

Fuck it. Fuck everyone. Fuck everything.

I need coffee.

[lightningandsnow]

23. Nobody said it was *your* fault.

And I'm sorry if I offended. It's not a personal attack.

[slackmaster]

28. No personal attack perceived

I could use a little HUMAN privilege this morning.

[lightningandsnow]

29. ...

:hug:

[shanti]

30. your post was not offensive

white privelege is the insidious truth.

"who feels it, knows it"
bob marley

[Ordr]

31. According to...you?

[LanternWaste]

93. According to conventional and progressive wisdom...

According to conventional and progressive wisdom...

[treestar]

176. So he should admit that if the playing field were even, he'd have

an even tougher job that paid even less?

Every white person, no matter how successful, would be just a little less so if there were no racism?

In time some individuals who are minorities have succeeded greatly. There are such individuals making more money than some white individuals. That's going to make it tough for these white people to feel "privileged."

This approach will not work. It hasn't worked. Why not try something else? It only breeds division more. Only the liberals are going to "admit to their privilege" and then go right on about their privileged lives.

[yardwork]

42. Black people have to work their asses off all day and all week too, plus endure racism.

I'm white, btw.

[treestar]

59. What is being endured today?

I'm not saying it's nothing.

There is still the fear of attack, but it's rare enough not to have to worry about it day by day, isn't it? It still makes the news. People cite the case of the guy who was dragged by a tractor, but that's the extreme case and it doesn't happen every day. Or does it and the media is not covering it?

It's little things now - being white I am concerned about my behavior, because I think it's neutral, and sometimes it is not. When I first met my roommate in college, she said I looked surprised to see that she was black. I don't even remember that as a reaction (in fact I was racist enough to suspect she was black from her name so I wasn't all that shocked, so some of it might have come from her. How is one supposed to look when by being white, one has no other choice?)

What's being endured here? We are too racist to even realize it.

[yardwork]

67. African Americans have worse health care, shorter life spans, greater risk for dying young.

Studies have shown that even when factors such as income and health insurance are controlled for, blacks receive worse healthcare than whites and have a greater likelihood of dying from diseases like cancer and heart disease.

African Americans face disparities with whites in income, wages, and most other issues even when education and income are controlled for in the comparisons. Racism exists. Yes, some poor white people have it just as bad or worse than some poor black people, but the simple fact remains that as a group, African Americans are discriminated against as a group.

[treestar]

76. I guess I knew that

But you can say that is due to relative poverty, and can be true for any race, including whites. It's just as true for women on the statistic that they are paid less than men for the same work. That puts the majority of us in the victim mode. We already know trying to make the white man feel guilty doesn't cause him to give in.

Why not just argue that there should be national health care without regard to race, for one thing? We're not going to succeed with some sort of argument it should only be offered to one race, just to make up for the past? I don't see any white people being so liberal as to say: yeah, we owe because of slavery, we'll pay a special extra tax to be transferred to black people to make up for disproportionate poverty. That's immediately going to bring out the white and Latino and other poor people.

Though you can trace the disproportionate poverty to slavery, it's of no comfort to the poor whites or poor of other minorities that they don't get the extra help just because they are descended from others.

The solution for some of these disparities is also already there. People can sue for discrimination. Granted they have to do that where the white man doesn't have to bother; he'll be treated fairly without it (but could face injustices of other kinds).

It's not going to be OK to have poor people suffering any of these things, even if AA poverty were to become statistically proportionate to white poverty. If 1% of the white people are millionaires, and someday 1% of all AA people are millionaires, and the percentage living in poverty matches, we still have poverty.

[yardwork]

88. The healthcare disparity exists even when poverty is accounted for in the statistics.

However, I agree with your larger point, which is that poverty is the core problem. Individual poor whites who are scraping to get by (and there are millions of them in the U.S.) aren't exactly jumping up and down celebrating their "white privilege." I realize that.

[live love laugh]

147. "...you can say that is due to relative poverty, and can be true for any race..."

Except it's not.

I know health care professionals. I have heard over and over that blacks are given the worst care in the medical system. I have read it, too.

A good friend who is a home health care nurse tells me all the time about non-black nurses and doctors and the ways that they dismiss or neglect to diagnose and treat symptoms of their black patients.

I have also seen it first hand. My grandfather went into the hospital fairly healthy in 2000 and died due to neglect by a hospital. I firmly believe that he died because he was a black man who didn't get proper care--his race AND his age played a part in the poor treatment that he got from a hospital that I thought was one of the better ones in the city. There are other discriminatory factors, such as age, but when coupled with being black, the biases seem to be compounded--ie, being old AND black; poor AND black.

My best friend's sister suffered the same peril--she died two months ago at age 43 it seems from overmedication when she was admitted to the hospital. She walked in to the hospital and never walked out.

[Darth_Kitten]

60. My bio dad was a troubled person who never had to pay any support....

and my stepfather was a drunk whilst I was growing up. I'm white and wonder why everybody thinks my life was and is a cakewalk. :sarcasm:

[yardwork]

62. Did you read my post?

[Darth_Kitten]

123. Is there some hidden meaning in it?

:shrug:

[lightningandsnow]

63. Never said your life was a cakewalk.

[acmavm]

32. I don't know where you get all this guilt, but you really need to

keep it to yourself. Look in the mirror and try to figure out why you have such low self-esteem.

My family has never ever owned a slave. My family on both sides lost relatives in the Civil War. I came from a poor family and lived in the projects when I was little. I went to predominantly black grade and junior high schools.

I have nothing to apologize for, nothing to feel guilty about. And I damn well am not going to take on some damn guilt that doesn't belong to me.

It's idiotic shit like this that fuels this 'fight'.

Good grief, this place has lost its collective mind.

[lightningandsnow]

33. Again, it's not specifically your fault.

And it's not about guilt, either.

My family is Jewish, never owned slaves either (I'm second generation Canadian), but I feel that it's necessary to acknowledge stuff like this.

[-..__...]

36. There's a fine line...

between acknowledging "stuff", complaining and finger pointing.

[LanternWaste]

80. And AspieGirl seems to be staying on the benign side of the your line....

And AspieGirl seems to be staying on the benign side of the your line....

[LisaL]

37. WTF is it about?

Considering people can not decide what race they should be born with, WTF do you propose be done about so-called "white privilege?"
You are trying to blame people for something they did not do, as if they had a choice to be born white, or that it's bad that they are born white, because they are guilty of "white privilege."

[yardwork]

44. Defensive much? Who said that this was all about you?

I'm white, and the OP didn't bother me the way it apparently bothers you.

It's true that the biggest problem we face is the unfairness of the labor market, which treats people like commodities. As you can attest, poverty affects people of all colors and ethnicities. A few people have the lion's share of the wealth, and many many people have far too little, despite the fact that their labor supports everyone else.

However, there's no doubt that racism exists and creates an extra burden for people of color. I'm white and I know this.

I might be somewhat more sensitive since I'm also lesbian.

[acmavm]

46. I don't care if you're sky-blue pink and asexual. If you don't

understand that poverty and the caste/class system we have in this country is the driving force behind the problems in this country, then there is absolutely no point in discussing anything with you. We need to find solutions, not listen to you people assign guilt and get out the metaphorical whips and self-flaggelate all over the internet.

[yardwork]

61. Did you read my post? I agreed with you that poverty is the biggest problem.

I totally agree. It's the corporatist monopolies and the few people at the top who have the lion's share of the wealth. They seek to divide us to keep us compliant so that they can continue to grab 99.9% of everything on earth and waste it and then throw it away.

[acmavm]

73. Then what is your problem? You thought I was rude? So (as Dick

cheney would say)? This whole thread is stupid. Someone wants to pretend that all the wrongs in this country should be heaped on her back, and by extension the rest of us white folks, is either mentally ill or begging for attention. And everytime they start spewing this shit, it just feeds the fire of bitterness and hard feelings on BOTH SIDES.

Now, if her family secretly has a black being held captive in the basement and only lets 'em up to cook and clean, shovel the sidewalks, mow the lawn, well then there's a problem. But don't pretend that we all bear this great guilt for the sin of slavery and bigotry and need to go out and do a great big public mea culpa, because that's a crock. We need cooperation, strength in numbers.

Here in Nebraska they are circulating a petition to get the elimination of Affirmative Action on the ballot. You want something constructive to do, put an end to this shit. Because it hurts BOTH women and blacks. The driving force behind this issue across the United Stats? A Californian named Ward Connelly. Read up on the guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Connerly

Now, he's a grade A self-hating asshole who means NOTHING but harm. Fight this shit. Do something constructive. Don't encourage people like the OP who just want some attention and a pat on the back for how liberal they are, what a 'great' humanitarian.

[undeterred]

38. This is an eye-opener.

I remember as a child - the first time I saw a doll that was black. Bandaids, pantyhose, fleshtone crayons... so many things slanted towards "white" people.

[malaise]

43. Add these two

I can denigrate minorities in the presence of educated minorities and be upset when they do not to support my position

I can ask educated minorities why they always have lunch with other minorities without acknowledging that I have lunch with my white friends daily.

[treestar]

52. But then does it matter?

I don't see having lunch with whites only as a value. I "can" do it more often than nonwhites, but it's not a privilege in that I don't value it. If I go to lunch with all nonwhites, it's just as good a lunch.

That's why some of these on this list seem to say: we nonwhites want to be together without you whites, leaving the white person to think, huh? I don't care if I have lunch with other whites only and don't seek it out.

They all make only one point: it is more likely for a minority to send up surrounded by white people than otherwise in any public grouping. And that's always going to be the case, while the minority is a minority, even if total equality is reached.

The only chance I have to understand it is that I was once invited to a party where I was the only white person there. Everyone else was AA. The people were nice to me so it wasn't uncomfortable. Are we saying that in the reverse situation the minority person is still ignored? If so, what can we white party hosts do? If we try too hard, that will be perceived as wrong, too. If we just act natural and don't consider the minority as a minority at all, are we failing to do right by what we think is natural?

[treestar]

48. This list should be whittled down

Too many of the items could be quibbled with by whites.

For instance, there is such a thing as a white poor person, who can't afford to live in a neighborhood they would want to live in.

It alienates the people one is trying to convince. I'm not even talking about myself. I can say I get it, but how does one get other whites to get it? I already see their arguments and don't have an answer.

[Zynx]

58. Also, poor whites can no more easily break into elite social circles than anyone else.

That's a fact. I'm not even poor and I can't.

[treestar]

74. So true! How any average middle class white person who

works for someone else can consider voting Repuke is one of the most amazing feats of self delusion ever. They really think they have a realistic chance of ever getting into that elite!

[lightningandsnow]

66. I agree, to some extent.

I didn't write it, so I can't say I agree with all of the points.

I think the sentiment is pretty accurate, though.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

51. Sorry but I completely disagree!

Ill only talk about the top 3 for brevity..

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

There are black only frats, proms, dances .... All people can arrange to be only in the company of their own race if they so choose. The fact its is easier for Caucasians is less a factor of race relation than numbers. Were I to live in Flushing NY it would be damn near impossible to be in the company of whites most of the time, were I to live in Kansas it would be easy..

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

Again *anyone can* and usually does do this picking broad categories that whites could fit into without examining what other groups can do it if they so choose does not 'white privilege' make.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

Im white and this is not the case whats that say? This is a function of wealth privilege not race privilege. Micheal Jordan, Samual L. Jackson are more able than 99% of whites to do this..

[Zynx]

57. I agree. I know what the author was trying to say, but many of the points are incorrect.

The one about not having to speak on behalf of your whole race is also incorrect. I have had to do that more times than I can count because I have often been the only white man in the room.

[noamnety]

86. I want to address #3 here.

Because I was discussing that with me sister just yesterday. In my area, we had a 6 foot tall wall built to keep black people from living in - or wandering into - the areas reserved for white folks. And that's not even in the south.

The people who bought homes in the black area, their homes values plummeted. The people who were allowed to buy in the white areas, their home values went up, dramatically. So that generation, the early baby boomers, the white people now have this extra wealth they can bequeath to their children, which is absolutely a function of white privilege - there's really no way to deny that. The black folks - union folks who were making the same income at the time (it wasn't a function of what they could afford) - they were contained within the areas where they lost wealth in their homes, and now they have nothing to pass onto their kids.

That inability to pass wealth down, that's generational poverty that was imposed precisely because of race - and the people who benefited from being on the white side of the wall, they weren't slave owners. People need to get it out of their heads that once slavery ended, we were all magically equal, and on equal footing. No, we weren't.

And while some of the white people were out there marching against this, the majority were happy on their side of the wall. They weren't out there with sledge hammers trying to smash it.

This is our "Wailing Wall". The developer built it because the FHA would not approve loans at that time in racially mixed areas.

[Zynx]

113. Class has much more to do with #3 than race.

The vast majority of Wisconsinites, who are overwhelmingly white, cannot afford to live in River Hills. They also wouldn't be accepted into that social circle because they didn't go to the right schools or build the right connections.

[noamnety]

122. I'm talking about working class neighborhoods here.

The overwhelming majority of ALL people, yes, are excluded from living where the top 5% of the wealthy live. (or whatever the stats there are)

I don't know why when we talk about poverty, people want to focus on the top 5% of white people, or the top 5% of black people, as if that has any relevance to the lives of the vast majority of people in this country.

When we do that, we are stunningly missing the point or refusing to acknowledge that black people were denied the opportunity to amass wealth specifically because of their race, that government policies ensured that would be the case, and this happened to black people who worked side by side with white people in factories. So white working class families were given the chance to get ahead doing that American Dream thing of home appreciation, while black working class families were thrown into a situation where this was just flat out not possible, even when both groups were scraping by in similar ways from paycheck to paycheck.

The difference in appreciation/depreciation is enough to pay for a child's entire college education - which in turn earns them more money (again, white privilege when it's your folks helping with that tuition bill). Or when the money from appreciation is inherited, it acts as the down payment on the next generation's house, allowing them another chance to turn that money into yet more money.

If someone in my area with a decent but not great job inherited say $15,000 from a dying grandparent, that was enough to put down on a house that was about $80,000 in the 90's. If they sold the house now, they could get back their initial inheritance, but also they could have turned a profit of $30,000 more, easily. The ability to be in that situation in the first place is the result of white privilege. The grandparents who amassed that $15,000 were able to do it as a result of themselves not being prohibited from living in the "good" neighborhood (a basic working class neighborhood). So they earned the exact same salary as a black person, but instead of dying in debt because their house lost value, they earned money just from doing nothing but living in whiteness and having a house. And that wealth is passed to the next generation, and the next, each time being invested and resulting in more money.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

159. The underlying assumption of your post is faulty

"The people who bought homes in the black area, their homes values plummeted. The people who were allowed to buy in the white areas, their home values went up, dramatically."

Your assumption is that race in terms of real-estate value exist in a bubble. My mother lived in a neighborhood which was 99% white, yet through the 90's her house value dropped (despite huge improvements) and in the 'boom' it went up only a few thousand dollars. Meanwhile my neighborhood which is mostly African American has seen condo value go up at least 10-15 thousand over the past four years..

Whats the difference? Economics! There is a war going on in this country and it is between rich and poor, the more time we spend trying to throw race into the mix the more time we give people destroying lives and neighborhoods time to function un-opposed.

Questions:
1) When was the wall built - Im guessing the 1940's

2) Where is this - I see this is Detroit, my sister just moved from port huron where she live in a new development that was mostly white. Her housing value went down 15 thousand dollars in the 4 years she lived there. Michigan is a *mess* in all areas!

3) What type of owners are on the other side? as I said my neighborhood is mostly black and I would take them over white trash any day! If it is the detroit wall from the 40's someone born when the wall was built is now 70 years old! their kids are probably getting up on 50..

[noamnety]

163. "White trash" has racist undertones

might want to watch that.

Most people use it without thinking, just common vocabulary. But the basis of it is that "white" is added to differentiate between "white" trash and the "normal" (nonwhite) kind.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

164. White trash is not racist

its descriptive, albeit non scientific...

Every race has its trash..

...

There is a war going on in this country and it is between rich and poor, the more time we spend trying to throw race into the mix the more time we give people destroying lives and neighborhoods time to function un-opposed.

...

[noamnety]

167. Why do you think it needs the qualifier "white"?

again, to distinguish it from "regular" trash, which does not, in our racist society, need the qualifier.

*magically managing to care about racism AND poverty simultaneously*

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

168. I think sometimes a cigar is just a cigar....

What the term means now is whats important....

[noamnety]

170. Uh ... what does it mean now?

WHITE people who aren't living up to the standards of how white people are expected to live. Message - white people are expected to be "better" than that.

Racist AND classist.

[noamnety]

195. You are missing the boat here

Go back and read my post. The issue is that black families were prevented by law from buying homes in the white neighborhoods.

Thus, they were prevented (by law) from buying a house in an area where real estate prices went up.

Thus, they were prevented (as a result of the law) from providing their children with an inheritance which they could invest to grow into yet more money, either as a housing downpayment or college tuition.

The effects of state-imposed segregation is state-sponsored generational poverty.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

196. Generational poverty caused by things 70 years ago

don't hold much weight today. Vietnamese boat people came here and were much more poor than African Americans, Koreans came here and were far more poor than African Americans.. The conditions that exist today are such that race is not a factor in climbing out of poverty. There are other circumstances making it difficult on people of all races that are *much* more dominant.

I am *not* in any way shape or form trying to minimize the evils done by this nation. But I am married to a woman whos family came over here with nothing, did not speak the language, and while they themselves are not *much* better off than 30 years ago (working poor), one of their kids is currently middle class and the other will be finishing his PhD from Berkly this spring..

My grandparents were working poor, my parents broke through to the middle class and, for the most part, their kids are doing at least as good as they were (at least when they were our ages).

[noamnety]

198. You are incorrect about the impact of generational poverty.

Please do some research on that when you have a chance.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

199. I went to one of the best HS's in my city

and a full 45% of the kids there were poor black kids. The rest were poor white kids. (the rich kids all went to a different school)... I had this exact argument with someon there and that was more than a decade ago.

He is now more wealth than me... Race is *not* anywhere near the dominant factor in generationl poverty..

[noamnety]

200. That's nice.

I'm suggesting that you do some research on the issue, because there is a body of research on this. That doesn't invalidate your personal experiences, or the experiences of outliers you may know.

You seem to be arguing that white privilege doesn't exist because class privilege is MORE of an impact. White privilege does not negate the (also) real effects of class privilege, or vice versa. In the same way that male privilege does not negate white privilege, class privilege does not negate either one. Rather, membership in multiple oppressed classes magnifies the problems of individuals.

[leftofthedial]

55. those are not privileges.

they are rights.

we ALL must fight to ensure that everyone--regardless of color, sex, sexual preference, religion or economic class--are afforded equal rights.

[laureloak]

64. I don't believe you're white because whites aren't that racist. nt

[lightningandsnow]

68. WTF?

[laureloak]

160. I'm calling your post a fake.

It's a lie and its just to flame blacks against whites. You deserve to be banned forever.

[ThomCat]

187. Wow. Are you for real?

The concept of white privilage is so well established by anyone who takes civil rights seriously that it's beyond belief that anyone would believe the shit you just posted.
:wow:

[annabanana]

102. (possibly the most amusing post of the day). . . .n/t

[laureloak]

158. It certainly is the truest anyway. Those screaming loudest

need to look in the mirror.

[DarkTirade]

174. ... this one gets a big WTF from me.

[RetroLounge]

189. I can't believe you're that stupid

because Democrats are not that stupid.

RL

[seabeyond]

69. yes there is a white privilige. i acknowledge it, undstand it, and accept it

doesnt give me the responsibility of others abuses to my fellow man but it does lend itself to an understanding of issues other races adn cultures may have with me and why. allows for a better embracing of one another.

it is not painful to acknowledge and recognize. it is the first step to healing.

[Irreverend IX]

71. Most of the stuff on this list in inevitable...

In any country with a significant ethnic majority. Living in the US, most of the items on this list can be applied to me, but when I lived in Japan almost none of them could. All the media personalities I saw, all the authority figures I dealt with and so on were Japanese. If I was slovenly or rude I knew that people would take it as a reflection on all Americans. You can't change this kind of majority/minority dynamic without changing basic human nature.

[Two Americas]

116. most strongly disagree

Racism is based on an artificial concept that has no basis or justification. Thinking that it is inevitable or human nature is an excuse and a rationale for keeping it in place.

This idea that we must change human nature as a prerequisite to social change is crippling us. If when we try to discuss social injustice we are always going to be met with this - "oh well it is human nature what can we do?" - we are surrendering before we begin; before we even consider beginning.

Racism is not natural, not inevitable, and not inherent in human nature. Obviously the potential for it is, but this "human nature" argument always runs one way and one way only - evil and destruction and hatred and injustice are to be seen as "human nature" and therefore insurmountable. Love and compassion and community and justice are every bit as much a part of "human nature" - I would argue much more so - yet we do not see those as inevitable.

[kineneb]

81. racism still extists...it was far worse before the Civil Rights Movement

I am a child of the 1960s and still remember seeing the photos of the Civil Rights marches in (good 'ol) Life magazine. The undercurrent of that racism is still there, suppressed, but lurking. Slavery has, I think, forever damaged this country; as long as there are people who believe in white supremacy, the fight will go on.

The list forgot the most privileged class in the US: wealthy white males.

[Igel]

89. Probably true in some places. But don't overgeneralize--

it shows that you're also wrong.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
Perhaps. But that's true for Latinos and blacks and Asians in Houston. It has to do with numbers, to a large extent. If I go to Cameroon, it's likely to be hard, and "institutional racism" isn't what would come to mind as the probable reason.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
Depends if you've be trained to mistrust people based on their ethnicity. I haven't. I have trouble around people from some other cultures, but race and culture are distinct kinds of critters.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
Yes. I live in an area that's over 50% black. Couldn't find a place I wanted to live in that I could afford that was mostly white. I'm discriminated against? I'm white.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
Actually, some have been neutral or pleasant. Some--mostly blacks--haven't been.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
True. Then again I'm male. My wife, on the other hand, has no such reassurance.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
True. Oddly, when in the Czech Republic most of the people were Czechs. Since whites are something like 70% of the US population, and disproportionately wealthy, I expect to see more whites in the media; we used to have lots of blacks' pictures in the newspapers, but they were often associated with crime stories and, well, that stopped.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
Yes, and when Egyptians are told about their national heritage they're shown people that look mostly like Egyptians. Blacks in the US were mostly slaves; they did largely what they were told, and its what they were told to do that's important. It's not until the 1800s that you get blacks playing a larger role, and the 20th century when their role is truly significant. (As it is, we learned about some blacks when I was in high school--but not their race.) If you do science or politics in the US from 1602 to 2000, you mostly do white men.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
I'm also sure my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the extistence of numerous other races. Showing that people of those races played a crucial role might not be the goal.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
Good for you. My wife's been trying to get published in the last year. No luck.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
I've been shouted down in groups in which I was the only member of my race. And when I was quiet, I've been told that I behaved appropriately--talking wasn't to be my role.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.
I'm not lucky enough to have been in such a situation--if "luck" is the right word.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
I'm not sure what my 'cultural traditions' are. I know they're not hip-hop--they're nobody's traditions, to be honest. "Blues" was mostly a southern thing, until it went to Chicago, so a lot of blacks don't have it properly in "their" family traditions. As for me, I prefer Italian renaissance and German Baroque/Romantic stuff. It's harder and harder to find Schmelzer and Biber in Wal-Mart and Target.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
I find it doesn't matter. The cashier barely acknowledges my presence when asking for ID.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
This sounds like you're saying whites will automatically not like blacks or Latinos or Asians. Strikes me as specious. The most popular guy in my 10th grade class was the Mexican exchange student, a novelty in the berg I lived in.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
I'm not sure if I do or don't. My wife was attacked for being white in the mostly Latino town she grew up in. My kid will know that if he's alone at night in a predominantly Latino or black part of town, he should be concerned: They may assume he has money or is fair game for an attack because of his race. Fortunately, he hasn't run into race-based bullies, just the regular kind.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
True. However, in high school and various colleges I've found that race doesn't matter. I've also found employers that preferred to hire minorities, and one woman that basically said to ignore the white males' applications. But still, I'll train my kid to assume that his race is neither a liability nor an asset.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
I have never seen that particular bit of rudeness ascribed to race. To being male, to be sure, but not to race.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
You know the wrong sort of people. Usually, in my experience, it's attributed to their being poor fundies. Or immigrants: Then again, immigrants are often poor, esp. if they're poorly educated.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
I've never seen this.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
I haven't heard "a credit to his race" for decades. Well, apart from what my mother said, but she's been a faithful dem since she turned 21 back in the '40s, for all her racism.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
I have been. I'm white. Apparently I'm perceived as a "typical white" by racists.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
Oddly, I've met a lot of Latinos that said about the same thing. And I've run into Czechs that complained about such racism--whites imposing "their" culture and language on those people-of-color Czechs. :think:

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
So can I. But if I had picked up the cant and jargon of some I know, about AIDS being a conspiracy, about the Trilateral Commission and zero-point energy suppression, about the Kennedy assassination being a Communist plot, I'd also have been seen as a cultural outsider. Oh, wait, those cultural outsiders were middle-class white American fundies.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
I can't. I live in Houston. Hell, I can't even be assured that when it's my turn to speak to the 'person in charge' I won't be passed over by him (or her) for somebody of his (or her) own race. Even had the uncomfortable time asking for the black man's boss, so I could complain about racial discrimination. His manager was black.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
I figured when I was pulled over by traffic cops it was because of my youth. After all, it was dark. And I'm far from certain my race is encoded on my IRS forms.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
Again, when in the Czech Republic, there were lots of posters of Czechs. Otherwise, point taken. (And before we hit 30!)

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
Then you're in the wrong organizations. Perhaps trying the local dem party would work?

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
This seems silly. I'd have no assurance either way, unless I took into account the content of the argument. "No, John, you're wrong--aluminum *does* melt at -10 degrees C, so it makes a perfectly fine coolant." Not likely to get me promoted to project manager.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.
I've argued for and against appointing people of various races. Sometimes it's hurt me, sometimes it's hurt me. Most often it's hurt me when the person was white. Perhaps I run in the wrong circles and academia isn't the racist institution that it's been billed as.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
I have yet to experience this. My views have been classed as "racist", "lacking authenticity", "deluded", "skewed", "showing white middle-class blindness", etc., etc. Never as being "enlightened", "fair", "honest"--unless I was expressing agreement with a person of color.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.
I can choose to ignore developments in majority writing and majority activist programs, too, and suffer no negative consequences from any of these choices. On the other hand, I've known blacks and Latinos that had little to do with their "activist brethren" and were none the worse for it.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
Most do. The only "fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other" races and cultures comes in dealing with such people. When in Russia, I found my white middle-class values did me little good, and I feared ignoring the Russians' perspectives (whatever they were). Same in grad school, dealing with Russians and Europeans. And, oddly, in ethnic parts of town, although their "power" usually consisted of bad service at restaurants and stores.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.
I've never seen anybody made "acutely aware" that their shape, bearing, or body odor is a reflection on their race. Sorry. Los Angeles, Houston, Baltimore, Eugene. Even Newark (DE). Haven't seen it.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
Good point. On the other hand, I have seen worries over racism that were self-interested and self-seeking. Had one student ask me if he could take an upper-division course I was teaching; he was black, and had no background in the matter. I said the dept. chair told me to be liberal with who I let in, but I'd be using ideas from one part of the field. I handed him a book, told him to plow through the first 100 pages, not a hard read--if he had questions, I'd be available to answer them, and I'd want to see that he read them and understood them (mostly) before I let him in the class. Turns out he was concerned I was being racist and asked the chair if he could be exempted. When he was told 'no', he got mad. Then he simply went away. I eventually got my book back.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.
Another good point. On the other hand, I've also had people hint to me that the only reason I got a job was because I was white and male, so I can sympathize. I've also been told I would have certainly gotten funding had I been non-white and non-male, but I didn't get any because the dept. needed to show it was committed to "diversity".

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.
Nobody "need" ask. Many do. Often the only valid answer's "I don't know", but the accepted answer is, "Of course."

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.
Much of finding is in asking.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
Much asking is pointless. If you mean "doubting", then be clear about where responsibility might well lie.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
Somehow, I must say that the only people that I've heard a race-tardiness correlation ascribed to are Latinos and French and Russians (and Czechs and Germans, but in a positive way). I'm unconvinced the correlation was a false one in some cases, or that the Latinos/French/Russians making the charges about their compatriots were wrong.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
I've heard of a few such instances. In some cases, those complaining were almost surely right. In other instances, less so. Most recently a mixed race couple were seated late at a restaurant and given crappy service. They said they complained, and were told that they were short some servers. "But others came in after us and were seated quickly and got their food before we did." (The wife's response: "Yes, but we didn't have reservations, and they knew the manager while we didn't.") Maybe, maybe not. The whites in the group weren't convinced; the blacks in the group were.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
Point taken. Blacks get worse care, over all, even at primarily white medical facilities.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.
I haven't been able to. Not getting funding in grad school was a damned pain. Having the minorities get by with crappy dissertations while I'm raked over the coals wasn't fun, either. Being told that the boss wanted to hire an Asian, but none would work part time for the wages offered also wasn't a high point.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
Depends. In student government, there were times when I lacked credibility because I was white and male.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
When 70% of the faculty are Latino and Spanish/Latino culture underpins US culture, I'm sure that this will change. On the other hand, I've had no problems taking courses focusing on India, E. Europe, Russia, and S. America. As for courses focusing on the Irish, that's been a tougher call. Then again, I know my race and don't feel like I need to have my identity affirmed; instead, I figured college was a place to learn about others, something for which it was well suited.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
I have no idea what this means. If by "English metaphors", true. I guess there are quips about 'hustings' and things like "London Bridge", but I'm not English.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
Truly a soul-crushing point. Then again, I usually use white gauze, and my kid has some sort of garishly colored bug strips, so we must have crushed souls.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.
Good for you. I can't. Airport staff, most of the clerks. More than enough put-downs and hostility. Perhaps if I weren't male, and my wife not female? Are we still talking 'race'?

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
I can only assume this means 'mixed race.' Perhaps it's a true observation. I suspect we've left 'white privilege' behind though, and are looking at 'straight privilege'. I know my roomie and I in Oregon got funny looks, and we were just sharing a two-bedroom apt. (two guys); our neighbors, two women, got no such funny looks (catcalls, perhaps), and they were also just sharing a two-bedroom apt.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
See quip for (49). Then again, there are straight arrangements that aren't fully approved of--"shacking up", for instance.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.
I haven't felt especially welcomed--my credit cards have been welcomed, but not me, not really. "Normal", perhaps. Depends what you look for and what degree of external validation you require. When I grew up, I was aware of calls for "tolerating differences", while being glad that my background was neither Polish nor Italian (which meant that no clique had a vested interest in attacking me). Later I realized the calls became "appreciating differences"--"tolerance" wasn't enough. I find excluding the most likely option in any context to be a bit of logical legerdemain: The majority are indifferent to differences, neither tolerating differences nor appreciating them, their basic indifference masked by a slight hostility to nearly everything that intrudes on their comfortable existence. Indifference isn't particularly welcoming; if being welcomed is required, most people are in for a long wait. People cease being indifferent when either they want something from you or you're in their way. (I was discussing the native language of the woman cutting my hair once--Hungarian--and asked about pronouns. Did Hungarian lack pronouns for 'he' and 'she'? She said she didn't give a hoot about the sex of her neighbor's dog, and would find the topic irritating. She could easily have extended this to the skin color of her neighbor or which kind of genitals her neighbor wanted his genitals to come in contact with. Indifferent, and annoyed by bringing the subject up. Then again, if she had an AKC prize bitch and saw her neighbor's dog in her yard, I'm sure the dog's sex would have suddenly become a topic of interest.)

[KamaAina]

90. You ain't seen nothin' yet

if you do come down to the States for university, prepare yourself for racism that's a full order of magnitude than anything you're used to. There's a reason Barack Obama felt he needed to make that speech, and it wasn't just what Rev. Wright said in his sermons.

[DarkTirade]

91. I have to say, normally I don't like it when people post a straight up list like that.

Because everyone's experience with such things is different. I had someone post a similar one trying to 'educate' me about my priviledge. Only problem was that this person knew nothing about me other than the fact that my skin is white. This person didn't know if there were any other mitigating factors in my life. Once this person pissed me off enough by trying to claim that because she 'read an article' once, she knows more about the subject than me (Yes. That's actually what she said. Once again, she didn't know the first thing about me other than the fact that my profile says male and I said that I have pale skin. And yet she assumed that because she'd read a SINGLE ARTICLE about such things, she knew more on the subject than I did.), I literally went through that list and pointed to item after item and said, "This one is either negated by X in my life, or doesn't apply to me because of Y" ect. ect. Normally I wouldn't be so defensive about it, but I was being attacked so I reacted as such in that case.

Still, in general most of those things are true... but there are some of us who fall outside man of those generalities. Although looking at this list, it seems to be a bit more realistic than the one the aforementioned person pointed me to. There aren't that many on the list that I can honestly say are mitigated by other factors in my life. When I got defensive last time after going through and tearing apart the list I'd been shown, the only one left that still fit me was the color of band-aids one. :)

[Popol Vuh]

92. Thanks for that post AspieGrrl

I can still remember when I was a little child. There was this big sign mounted on the side of a stone railroad bridge entering into the downtown section to Torrance California. The sign read: "No Mexicans or Blacks from 7:00pm to 7:00am".

I can also remember back then as a Mexican if you were outside of the "Mexican area" past dark the police would arrest you. The same was true at some of the public beaches for both Blacks and Mexicans.

I can still remember my father looking for a better place to live and hearing one man tell my father "No we don't allow Mexicans in this neighborhood" and then proceeded to point where we were already living and said "Mexicans live over there".

I can remember one of my father's uncles who he admired enough to name me after. He was a highly decorated WWII vet with the 101st Airborne Division. I can remember a night when my pops and others rushed off to the hospital because the uncle I was named after was badly beaten for being out with a White Woman.

I still see the older movies played on the television which used White actors and actresses wearing makeup to portray Mexicans and other Native Americans. Even though that practice is mostly not done anymore, you notice it when you see it.

But the things I still see so much of is: (1) It is not too uncommon when I go shopping (no matter how well dressed and groomed I am) I can feel the suspicion coming from the store clerks as they try to keep me from noticing that they're watching every little thing that I do. (2) The superior attitude demeanor from some White folks when they're near you. The look they give you, etc. (3) Last but most of all. This attitude projected toward us like we are unwanted outsiders even though we are the original people who've been here since well before Jesus Christ was born.

Anyway, again thanks for your post. I know that some people might take my comments as if I myself am racists against White folks. Nope sorry, I am not racists against my own mother and half myself. I just have a problem with the things I've had to experience and still see even though its now a little less conspicuous.

[GihrenZabi]

94. Reactions speak loudly

Note how many white people are reacting vehemently against that list of items which are true.

I have yet to see anyone refute the points on the list in a serious manner, only one attempt which was sarcastic and ineffectual at best.

What I don't understand is why whites refuse to admit their privilege when it is so painfully obvious to anyone with an open mind and an honest heart. I'm white, by the way.

In terms of solutions? Universal health care. More investment in inner city schools. More cops on the streets. An end to standardized testing. Total elimination of the social conditions that promote inequality.

Something that will take a very, very, VERY long time - but we have to get started at some point, and the first step is for white people to admit that we still have a leg up, that we haven't really addressed the question of equality in America. Affirmative action was a band-aid.

One last thing...white privilege doesn't mean that anyone "handed" anything to you, and responses along those lines are intellectually lazy. White privilege means that there are doors and opportunities more open to us than to people of color, that our race dominates the media, our race controls most of the money and the political power, our race is considered "the norm" and hence we don't have to deal with institutionalized racism on a daily basis.

That, alone, is a privilege, to not have to worry about someone judging us purely by the color of our skin - and if you honestly want to argue that you ARE judged on account of being white by the other white people around you on a daily basis, I suggest you stop smoking the weed because it's making you paranoid, and/or possibly seek some psychological attention for your persecution complex.

[KG]

100. as the tongue cannot taste itself, or the eye cannot see itself, it seems many white

don't really understand the real meaning of 'white privilege' because it is woven into the fabric of their very lives.

[Zynx]

111. The thing is that the same applies to any ethnic majority in any country.

I wish that would be acknowledged. The only case where that really wasn't true was the agregious case of South Africa during apartheid.

[Popol Vuh]

101. Very well said GihrenZabi

I just wish it wasn't as taboo as it is to address this issue. I think that would be a very big step.

Peace:

:hug:

[Karenina]

103. Great post!

Thanks for weighing in! :yourock:

[Rex]

96. Mostly silly statements.

I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

Oh my! :dunce:

[KG]

98. as a white man, i know i benefit from 'white privilege', esp white male privilege

i may not have stepped thru every door that was opened only to me coz i was a white guy, but i've long known them to exist.

and i still see it around me every day.

[superkia]

99. Good post but there are some pretty scary people responding...

in some angry defensive ways. Sometimes the truth hurts and instead of dealing with it, people lash out and ignore the facts.

[noamnety]

104. That's always the case

whenever the male privilege or white privilege list is posted.

I keep hoping that exposure to the list will make them think about it in some meaningful way, if not now, maybe in the future at some point. And part of me has faith that they understand, even if they are reacting with a backlash that defies reason, that the fact that they can list 2 or 3 black people who are millionaires doesn't negate the reality that classism and racism are woven together in a hundred different ways.

[superkia]

108. You would think that the white people that have been shit on by...

the system would recognize that even though their situation is bad, as a race it has no comparison to the black race. Its not about pointing fingers, its about opening peoples minds.

[Zynx]

112. There are people of racial minorities that have had it easier than some members of the majority.

If you're a poor white kid with a mental illness, you tell me that you are more privileged than a Chinese kid whose parents pay $40,000 a year and can easily afford it to send them to an elite school in New Jersey. Do not overgeneralize. I am using specific cases here from people I know in my life.

I understand fully that the majority of people in the upper echelons of society are white males and as a white male, on balance, they are more likely to help me out than, say, a black female. People associate with their own and in a system where one group is a majority there is an inherent level of "privilege", but do not look at all white people as having the same privileges. They don't.

[kwassa]

130. You're wrong

There are certain inherent privileges from having a white skin, and they are outlined in the OP, which is a famous list, by the way. You appear to have ignored this list.

You need to compare a poor white kid with a mental illness to a poor black kid with a mental illness to make an accurate comparison, by the way. That poor white kid will have an advantage, and probably receive better treatment.

[noamnety]

145. You're absolutely right - privilege extends to mental health care.

"Overall, only one-third of Americans with a mental illness or a mental health problem get care. Yet, the percentage of African Americans receiving needed care is only half that of non-Hispanic whites."

"For example, when compared to whites who exhibit the same symptoms, African Americans tend to be diagnosed more frequently with schizophrenia and less frequently with affective disorders. In addition, one study found that 27% of blacks compared to 44% of whites received antidepressant medication. Moreover, the newer SSRI medications that have fewer side effects are prescribed less often to African Americans than to whites. Finally, even though data suggest that blacks may metabolize psychiatric medications more slowly than whites, blacks often receive higher dosages than do whites, leading to more severe side effects."

http://mentalhealth.samhsa.gov/cre/fact1.asp

[BadgerLaw2010]

150. Mental health care for children (and in general) is about money.

It's rarely insured and is supremely expensive, with perscription medications for starters and voluntary hospitalization, counseling and special schooling (i.e. not no-funding public special ed.) Race won't help white middle class or below get any of that, as they simply cannot afford it.

Any racial component in mental health care is a secondary function of economics.

[noamnety]

151. How does that explain the higher dosages given to blacks? (nt)

[BadgerLaw2010]

153. Dunno. I don't see any cite in the article explaining what they are referring to.

What I do know (from personal experience) is that a kneejerk solution from "retail" mental health, for lack of a better word, is to perscribe more drugs that may or may not be more appropriate for more "severe" problems, rather than actually determine what specifically is wrong, and perscribe appropriate drugs.

Prozac was the classic one. Given to just about everyone, can make severely depressed people into suicides and make people whose depression is the result of something more active (ex. being depressed about social failures due to Aspergers) into dangerous individuals.

Absent data, I would suspect that mental health care in urban, heavily minority areas is lousy because the areas are poor, and most problems are treated with heaping doses of "standard" drugs because that is cheap and easy, and requires comparatively low expertise to doll out.

[noamnety]

154. In other words

Absent a specific reference handed to you on a silver platter, within a linked government document, you prefer to disregard the conclusions in the report and create your own justification that defies history and statistics, in order to fit your preconceived notion.

Is health care related to poverty? Of course.
Does that negate that there is a difference in diagnosis and treatment of people based on race? Nope.

Things to google: disparities mental health dosages race

[Zynx]

193. I read the whole thing and I don't shut up just because something has been

written that I am "supposed" to respect. I don't have to accept it as some definitive argument. Economic class, geographical location, etc play into these things too. To just simply say "White people are privileged" is an argument so simple it should not make it out of elementary school. I read over every one of those 50 points, some are quite valid. I see people of my race everywhere, but that is to be expected in a country in which 70% share my skin color. If I moved to South Korea, that list would narrow down in a hurry. What's more is that many of those arguments don't hold up when we look at class.

On balance, all other things being held equal, do white people have an advantage in this country? Certainly. However, to simply label all whites as benefitting from "White Privilege" is a simplistic way of looking at the issue. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I don't get it.

[Karenina]

109. Ignore the facts by taking it personally...

Then lash out, blame and refuse to even look at the BIG PICTURE. SOP.

[Zynx]

110. There are legitimate things to criticize in this post.

To simply dismiss the criticisms as "scary" is not productive.

[superkia]

114. Should I have put alarming, would that be better for YOU?

Scary: Causing fright or alarm.


Just let me know how YOU think "I" should word my opinions and I will update them for you. How about I am amazed at how ignorant people still are to reality these days? Does that sound better? Actually if you could, you could just write something for me. I cant believe how people walk around with their eyes closed to what is taking place all around them and I am amazed at their ignorance and the self pity they show.

You word it how you want so it is productive.

I don't believe I can have a productive conversation with people that walk around with blinders on and their ears plugged to the rest of our society.

[Zynx]

115. You seem awfully content to label people and see what you want.

For example, when I criticized your use of the word "scary", I was referring to your entire mentality of simply shutting off any criticism as unenlightened. That was my complaint. You pretend as if you have some greater understanding of what is an extremely complicated problem, probably the most complicated and intractable one societies face all around the world, than anyone else and that anybody who criticizes your view point is some kind of bigot. There are legitimate criticisms to be made here and some made them more eloquently than others.

[superkia]

117. Your opinion of my opinion has been heard. I will be appearing at...

the "Its over for Clinton" thread at 8pm if you would like to stop by and let me know how I am doing.

As always, thank you for coming and god bless!

[sergeiAK]

118. A serious rebuttal to a few points.

Since I heard someone whine that there wasn't one, I figured I'd provide one.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
As can most groups. Really, are you trying to say there aren't areas that are mostly one (any one) race?

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
I'd love to move to the DC area, but can't find a job that pays well enough. Looks like I'm staying here. This is more of a class issue than a race issue.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
Not always, but assholes are everywhere. My current neighbors to one side are nice, the last ones there were violent crack dealers. So I'm batting .500 right now on that side, with a fraternity house on the other side. The fraternity is a decent neighbor, though I rarely talk to any of them.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
As I'm a member of the majority race, I'm fairly sure I can. Oddly enough, the majority race generally can. Even if the majority is not white. Simple math suggests this will be true for any majority.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
Again, as a member of the majority race since the founding of my nation, pretty obvious as to why this is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
Don't quite see what you're getting at here. I haven't seen anyone deny the existence of another race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.
Not really. In my field, you damned better listen to anyone with constructive input. Half point, I'm sure it happens, but I've never seen it.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
Sure. I'm a member of the majority. Businesses serve me because there are more people like me than not like me. It's the advantage of numbers.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
Not quite sure what you're getting at here.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
My parents couldn't.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
No, they put it down to me being an uncultured ass. As I've seen them do regardless of race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
Which group and speaker might you be referring to? I have no other experience here, so I'll give you the point, but I'd like to know where this came from.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
Never seen this first-hand, but I'll assume it happens as I've heard the phrase before. Point to you.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
I have been, but then again, I hang out with slightly different people than I suspect the author does :P

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
Holy poorly constructed sentence Batman! I'm assuming this means because someone is white they can ignore other culture's contributions to society. Again, I can't, but I may be different than the average white guy. Half point to you.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
Sure. I'm in the majority, statistics suggest this would be true even in a perfectly equal US society.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
Every cop that has pulled me over has been one race (not mine). It wasn't racially motivated, as they had a reason each time (sometimes a bit thin, but a plausible excuse for a fishing trip). If they don't have a reason, sue. We have courts for this exact reason. Half point, because it does happen.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
Again, majority. Math suggests that this would be the case regardless of racism.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
Since I'm the FNG, not likely. But then again, I don't get into such arguments, so I have no firm evidence. Half point.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
Depends on my stance. If I say there is a racial issue, I'm taken seriously. If I say there isn't, I'm not. Witness the replies I'm sure will follow this post :P
Half point.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
Mine doesn't, but many do. Point conceded, though beware this is a cultural rather than racial issue.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.
My shape, bearing, and BO (or lack thereof) is generally taken as a comment upon my profession (Engineering). :P
Point taken, on a racial basis.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
Sometimes. Depends on the direction of the racism and my approach to it.
Half point.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.
Sure, I'm assumed to have gotten it in my field because I'm a US citizen. Half point, as AA does affect (though mildly) the choices. I've seen much more of it with regard to gender than race, again, due to my profession.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.
My parents and my boss. Last I checked these were generally available, though I'll concede half a point due to the institutional racism still present.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
Somewhat. I'm certainly subject to fewer restrictions than some. OTOH, a temporary professor at my university advocated the killing of all people of my race. He was applauded by the assembled scholars, including some higher-ups of the university. Were I to advocate genocide at an institution of higher education, I would be mocked publicly (and deservingly), threatened, and fired. He suffered only a non-renewal of his contract.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
Sure, people will just call me an uncultured ass. Or associate it with my nationality (damned Americans! :P). Point taken, though less relevant in an international context.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
I can find European, African, Asian, and several other cultural history courses at my university (a fairly conservative one in the South). This was valid 20 years ago, but has become much less so.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
Sure, as a member of the majority race, this is quite likely.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
Again, majority. Companies will produce the product that gives them the widest variety of consumers. Don't like it? Start a business producing different colors. Beauty of free enterprise. There are even fairly low barriers to entry in such an industry.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
This doesn't seem to be a racial issue, maybe I'm missing something?

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.
I don't feel normal, but then again, even considering my race, I'm not. That was my choice, and I figure I could have chosen otherwise (though I'm not sure why I would). Point taken.

If I left one out, it's likely because I agree. I left a few more out because I had no experience either way with the issue.

Basically, you have some very valid points, some somewhat valid points, and some bullshit. Trim the bullshit and modify the highly patronizing tone, and it'd be a much better piece, and much more likely to be taken seriously.

[lightningandsnow]

119. I didn't write it.

[sergeiAK]

121. Oops, thought you did.

Though in retrospect, since I've seen another version of it, should've realized that. D'oh!

[Karenina]

186. Had you READ her OP, rather than go

0 to 60 in attack mode... :freak:

[noamnety]

125. LMAO

"modify the highly patronizing tone, and it'd be a much better piece, and much more likely to be taken seriously."

That is a freaking hilarious statement, considering the standing that this piece has in the academic world, which I see you were unaware of. Those "highly patronizing tones" have a way of biting people in the ass.

I'm sure, AspieGrrl, if you just cleaned that up a bit, people would take it more seriously!!!1111!! :D

[omega minimo]

128. lwfern, isn't the greatest privilege of privilege being

oblivious of it?

:think:

[sergeiAK]

133. The tone was unnecessarily patronizing

And I commented as such. As for its influence in academia, perhaps some of us study things other than the liberal arts?

As for the patronizing tone, it really does dilute the message, to the point where many people would lose interest, especially those it is aimed at. Furthermore, it seems that the people you want to understand this most (the privileged who do not realize it) would be the most put off by the accusatory tone of it. Catch more flies with honey than vinegar and all.

As far as trimming the poorly made arguments, or making them clearer, care to refute what I said?

[noamnety]

134. I'm hoping others see the humor here.

clearly you aren't catching my point about people using a patronizing tone. :D

[sergeiAK]

136. I apologize if my tone was less than pleasant

It was not intentional.

So, about those facts?

[noamnety]

142. Regarding your "facts"

I would encourage you do to some reading about education, about marginalization, and about the real impact it actually has on people, particular when they are school aged.

I already thought I understood it kinda well, but going through a master's in education, holy cow, even I was overwhelmed by it. If you feel like you need help getting pointed toward good resources on that topic, let me know.

It's easy to be a little flippant about saying "of course the media, literature, education, etc. is all about me and people like me, cause I'm in the majority." It's a little less comfortable to recognize that this has real effects on real people, and even less comfortable to come to terms with the reality that this is in fact part of white privilege. It's very easy as a white person in a society dominated by white people to claim you're colorblind, and if it doesn't bother you to always be acknowledged, as a person in the majority, it shouldn't bother other people to always be excluded because they are in the minority.

I just finished up a course recently where another teacher was advising everyone to just stay away from "ethnic" material in the classrooms, so as not to cause problems. I posted about that already on DU, sorry to be repetitive for those who saw that post. Then she went on to recommend books that were "safe" - and she specifically listed The Great Gatsby. I got to see her lesson plan for that, and a big part of it was getting the idea across (from the book, of course), that people with Old Money are well bred. People who have recently come into money, from the "lower" classes, they are vulgar and crude, and their money doesn't change that.

She made a point, several times in the class, of bragging about how colorblind she is. So colorblind that she will only teach books by white people about white people, with the moral being that only those with generational wealth are worthy of respect. She doesn't see the problem with teaching that to inner city minorities - without other books about minorities to counteract that message. If the inner city minorities don't appreciate it, it's because THEY are racist. She's colorblind.

That's all pretty appalling, but like I said, all the more appalling if you start actually getting into the research on how this effects kids. Equal backgrounds, equal intellect, equal incomes, equal neighborhoods - all that can be true, but the education is not equal when it marginalizes one group of people, and it has a real effect on career choices, on performance in the classroom, on testing skills, etc.

It's not just classrooms, though. Mickey Mouse Monopoly (available in sections on youtube) talks about racism in disney movies, and the effects of growing up in an environment where every cartoon, for example, that has a latino character portrays them as a dog, never as a human, or where black "people" are depicted as apes.

White privilege - the privilege to be completely unaware of the effects of that privilege.

[malaise]

143. #7 suggests that you don't know your history

A large chunk of America was built by slave labour.

[walldude]

131. Racism exists and there are responses here that prove it.

However I'm not going to waste my time debating those posts. Denial is part of the problem.

This is a re-post of something I posted in GDP I thought about cross posting the whole thing but it straddles the fence on being a "primary" post...

"I have seen tons of posts about the Reverend Wright in the past week or so. I've been laying off those threads because the Reverend isn't running for office. However, today I have jumped into the fray, so to speak, because I see many people who are now wearing the shoe on the other foot, yet the truth and the lesson continues to elude them.

Don't like it when white people are compared to the anti-christ? Wow this must be what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racism.

Don't like it when white people as a race are denigrated by a preacher? Wow this must be what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racism.

Don't like it when white people are accused of trying to kill off black people? Wow this must be what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racism.

Don't like it when white people are judged by the color of their skin? Wow this must be what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racism.

So what did you learn from the Rev Wright?

BTW in case you are wondering, I got my racism lesson years ago, from the brilliant Ossie Davis directed film Cotton Comes To Harlem. It was the first time I was made to realize what it's like to be on the receiving end of racism. Ossie Davis made me understand how he felt being a black man. What was my response to the movie? Did I freak out? Did I start calling him a racist? Did I attack any political figures he might have a relationship with?
No I didn't. I took the lesson he taught me to heart, I thanked him for showing me a perspective I would have never been able to understand without his help. I became more aware, more sensitive and much more understanding of what life is like for a minority, and for that, I am forever grateful..."

[Rage for Order]

135. I'm white and haven't gotten my fair share. Where can I sign up?

Nobody has shown me the secret handshake, given me a wink and a nod while telling me everything would be taken care of, or offered me a membership into an exclusive country club. Maybe I'm not white enough?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

140. No, you're not rich enough.

But put a black person (or any minority) with your exact same circumstances, except for your skin color, and you still come out ahead of him.

[Rage for Order]

141. That's quite the supposition

And impossible to know.

[noamnety]

144. I just did a quick search.

One of the first things I found out about you from your posts: You are a homeowner.

Most white people are homeowners in this country.
Most black people are not.

7 in 10 white families own homes in the US, compared to 4 in 10 black families (and less than half of all nonwhite families)

But please, continue on about not having your "fair share." Just be aware that what you consider "my fair share" can be very different depending on the color of your skin. Some people's sense of entitlement is a bit more than others. Hope your stocks are doing well.

[gollygee]

148. You would only need a secret handshake if it wasn't obvious you were white just by looking at you

And you haven't been offered membership into an exclusive country club, probably because you have white privilege but not the privilege of the wealthy. Still, if you become wealthy, it will be easier for you to get into a country club than a black man of equal education and wealth.

[Sanctified]

149. This is not White Privelege.

This is living in a country where you are the Majority Privilege, try living in a country where you can go days without seeing someone who is the same race as you and then get back to me.

[laruemtt]

156. i know i'll live to regret posting here, but....

i'm a white woman of italian heritage married to a black (actually a beautiful roan color) man from jamaica. i can honestly say i've been pretty color blind most of my life. we lived in st. lucia for a year and several of the men there said they couldn't believe how friendly and open i was because most of the white women who visited kept them at arm's length. i apologized to them for that and said i didn't understand it. i love the islands - color really makes no difference there.

meantime, my 89-year-old mother was knocked over, mugged and robbed by a black male in the parking lot of her doctor's office. she's ok but she's totally changed since then - she's 93 now. from that point she lost her sense of safety in the world and a lot of her spunk. in another instance, dh and i went out to dinner with his son and his wife, both black, to a place that was totally mixed. two black couples seated next to us pointed me out and laughed at me and mocked me openly. dh didn't see it, or i don't know what would have happened. my stepson's wife mentioned it and could not believe what she was seeing.

these two instances have personally tested my color-blindness. i don't know exactly why i'm sharing this here. i just know that everything is not all one way. my ancestors were not around for the atrocity that was slavery, in which the africans sold their own to the whites. as italian immigrants in the very late 1800s, my great-grandparents had a very rough time but hung in there. they experienced a lot of bigotry and were often turned down for work because people didn't like "degos." i was even told in the 1980s by a coworker that a foreman at a place i worked said he'd "get that dego." we were always dirt poor. we all just have to stop targeting an entire race for the misdeeds of others of that race. good luck to us all.

[OzarkDem]

173. So does sexism n/t

[treestar]

175. Individuals can acknowledge it all they want

White American culture, such as it is, is based on individualism. Skinheads and the like whine about exactly that - that other whites don't care about the race as such.

Further, at this point there is integration, as there should be, thus there are no "white" institutions. (Another thing the racists complain about - the other races can have their own churches, schools, etc.) The white race no longer sees itself in collective terms. This is why white people "can't understand." They don't see themselves as a single entity and that's why they take it personally and think of themselves as not to blame, because they can only see things individually.

There's a danger in wanting the white race to start acting collectively again, even if just to "take responsibility" for racism. It might not be long before it started "protecting itself" again.

[Zynx]

194. You said it exactly how I feel about it.

When I vote, go to school, work, etc I never think of myself as being a representative of white, Christian, males. If someone makes a point of it, then I guess I think about it for a little while, but I never identify myself that way. I'm actually quite offended when people lump me in with so many other millions with whom I share relatively little.

[citizen snips]

177. yes everything is handed to me on a sliver platter.

:eyes:

[DarkTirade]

178. Yes, because that's exactly what the poster said.

Oh, no, wait... it's not. My mistake. :eyes:

[citizen snips]

179. The article is written by an intellectual

who has nothing better to do than spout generalizations. A serious conversation about race should not include generalizations.

[EFerrari]

181. A serious conversation about "race" could not exclude generalizations

unless it was a personal talk between you and an acquaintance.

And did I miss something? Is "intellectual" now a cuss word?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

180. That's not it at all.

The article didn't imply that white people won the metaphorical lottery -- it said that it is easier (not to be confused with easy) to be white than it is to be nonwhite in this country.

If you are white in America, by and large, you are treated better by society. That's not to say that your life will be hassle-free, but rather that you will have a *comparatively easier* life compared to someone who does not look like you.

The advantages to being white are not necessarily obvious and pronounced. It's only when you compare how you are generally treated with someone who is not of your ethnicity that those advantages become more clear.

Of course, there's also male privilege and straight privilege -- both of which I have, and of which I am aware of. The OP is not an attack on you or the color of your skin. It's simply pointing out the reality of living in America.

[JanMichael]

182. I used to try this on DU and it rarely worked.

Same with healthcare, labor and economic justice, posts.

While there are many very nice folks here there are far too many a-holes here to bother arguing with the "i'm gonna make the last post in this argument types".

Not worth the time. Not worth their weight in dog shit.

[otherlander]

188. Ok, mostly true

Except:

4 and 5, not really.
24 and 27, not so much either.
32, no.
47 and 50, sadly no.

[CitizenRob]

190. Is this peer reviewed? I doubt it. Economic class can explain most of the 50 "privelages."

As I stated yesterday when somebody else posted this SAME thread. Nearly every single one of these can be directly related to economic class rather than skin color. Some of them are just flat false and based on flawed premises or the subtle racism of the author.

I'm going to go on the assumption that most of us can tell by looking at, listening to, or observing their behavior can determine whether an individual is lower class, middle class, or upper class. While we claim to live in a classless society here in the US, that is REALLY not the case, and shame on anybody who would say otherwise.

I can't speak to an individuals level of feeling welcomed or normal. I suspect, although I may be wrong, that most middle and upper class black people who have adopted upper and middle class lifestyles, etiquette, and behaviors, rarely feel out of place. However those individuals of any race who are poor, do not have the education on etiquette and proper middle class/upper class socialization would probably feel out of place.

[VotesForWomen]

202. oh bullshit. take any two people of equal "class" and the other privileges still apply. nt

[Karenina]

203. Thank you.

[VotesForWomen]

201. white person here- yes, white privilege definitely exists; as does male/straight privilege, which ma

many here have a hard time admitting.