Serious question: Why are whites afraid to hear black anger about racism?

[texshelters]

Please no flaming, this is a serious post.

I keep reading how people are upset by what Reverend Wright said. Not just the insane, "whites created aids" but also the somewhat truthful "United States of KKK," "God Damn America", the chickens have come home to roust." I'm white, and it doesn't offend me at all.

The US government ignore slavery, racism, lynchings, violence, hate crimes, and other racial crimes in this country committed by whites against others for years. So Reverend Wright is angry about that and he expresses it. Why are whites so bent out of shape?

Is it:

1. Because they are hiding their true racist feelings?

2. They are afraid of angry black men.

3. They are nationalists and can't stand when our country is criticized?

4. Don't like hate speech of any kind and see this as hate speech? You better be pure of heart on this one.

If it's number 4, great! Go out and criticize Clinton's membership in the "Family", a conservative homophobic Bible study group with questionable positions on race, or John McCain homophobic, liberal hating, racist group of Pastors that support him as well.

In any case, I would like honest responses to this. If nothing else, a little self reflection about why you or others respond so viscerally about Wright's comments would be a good idea. I'm NOT accusing anyone of anything. But it seem, "Thou dost protest too much."

Tex Shelters

[wryter2000]

1. I think there are lots of reasons

And different white people probably have different reasons.

I guess I should add that I have no problem with what Rev. Wright said. And if the aids statement is incorrect, the US government has given black men syphilis in the past. White soldiers intentionally gave Indians small pox, too.

[aikoaiko]

25. I thought the small pox blankets thing was a Ward Churchill myth?

:shrug:

[Karenina]

28. . .

:puke:

[aikoaiko]

37. I was surprised when I heard it too.

FWIW: Since your reply implies doubt, I dug a little. Wikipedia cites two main articles.

http://www.plagiary.org/smallpox-blankets.pdf

http://www.colorado.edu/news/reports/churchill/download/WardChurchillReport.pdf

[Karenina]

39. Thanx for the crash.

Cookies and milk, anyone? Tschüß! :hi:

[aikoaiko]

40. I don't know what "crash" you mean, but see ya later.

:hi:

[KoKo]

31. I agree..it's an issue that's always with us...But...what about Bush/Cheney and their Current Crimes

against Humanity? I don't hear much from Dem Candidates about this. And about the cover ups that go WAY BACK...Crimes against HUMANITY...that means ALL OF US! :shrug: Don't hear much about that....don't hear much about that...

[seemslikeadream]

2. Truth

[Karenina]

21. I saw a clip on Youtube

of Wright speaking after 911. What he called for was SELF-EXAMINATION. On this 5th anniverasry of the holocaust in Iraq that Americans have permitted to be perpetrated in their names, even the soldiers who are baring their souls to prompt a discussion are IGNORED. Angry soldiers have been relegated to the dustbin of "disgruntled employees."

"ANGRY BLACK" strikes fear and aggression in the hearts of the dominant culture. To us and to sensitized whites, Wright is doing nothing more than telling it like it is.

It has much to do with "register" to use a linguistic term. His oratorial style scares the dickens out the dominant culture, especially when it's loaded with truth.

I live in a largely Turkish neighborhood. I used to think they were always angry and felt threatened. It took getting to know families intimately before it slowly dawned on me. Their communication style was just different. I understand it now so I just holler along with the rest...

Wright is MUCH MORE accepting of and open to whites than any of you who have your knickers in a twist are of anyone who is "non-white" by your own definition. Most African-Americans are. WE HAVE TO BE TO SURVIVE IN THE DOMINANT CULTURE. WE HAVE TO BE TO COPE WITH THE "RACIAL DESIGNATIONS" that are projected onto our families, friends and communities.

[texshelters]

100. Excellent post!

Thank for that. It's right on point.

Tex Shelters

[VeraAgnes]

3. Why? This is a Presidential Primary

and we are at War, the economy is in the toilet and it essentially is an unnecessary distraction. GOP loves the infighting...like "rats in a sack we are".

[DeSwiss]

132. An "unnecessary distraction"

is what its always been to some. And will always be. So there's never a "good" time. Never.

[LynzM]

4. I think a lot of it is #3 on your list, personally.

There is a prevailing culture amongst a lot of people in this country that it's not ok to critize the U.S. actions, past or present. The "love it or leave it" attitude. I don't really understand that, to be honest. If we really love our country, we should look openly and honestly at our failings and work to improve them. Like you, I didn't find a lot in Wright's sermons to be bent up about - he was acknowledging that we have failed or acted aggressively and that the results of those actions are something that we now have to face. Did he acknowledge those things in a way that ruffled feathers? Sure. But does that make his message invalid? I don't think so.

[DLnyc]

89. Honestly, I think behind that "love it or leave it' nationalism lurks

a sense of racial domination and, with that, fear of being overturned. I don't think most people would admit to this, or even be clearly aware of it. In fact, that is why it becomes shrill and irrational, as in the case of a certain former VP candidate. It's scary stuff, and, as Obama pointed out, it is manipulated on a regular basis by the 'Repo' party to "win" elections.

As you point out, Wright's sermons point these things out, with a view toward FIXING them, not just manipulating people. That is an important difference that people are completely missing (or are sadly, and perhaps willfully, unaware of) when they call his sermons 'hate speach' 'anti'white', blah blah blah.

[dkf]

5. Talk to these guys...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5190040&mesg_id=5191191

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5190040&mesg_id=5190040

[seabeyond]

6. i heard the god damn america part and turned to hubby and said, but i agree

not that i am into damnin, and i love god, and even america.... but i am not afraid to look into truth, even if it is not pretty.

years ago i ask my friend why she was not angry. if i were her living in the panhandle of texas i would be sooooo angry. further, i am not black and i am sooooo angry.


because of her age, the time and being conditioned, she wasnt

talking to my boys about race issue and them being white males and their cultural part in it, i often talk about the anger of the black community and our part in it

i dont think we should be offended and put off by the anger. doesnt hurt me at all. i am not put off by the anger towards christian. i can embrace the anger, hate and frustration directed at christians. i understand it. it is not painful. i do not take it personally

so i agree with you

[seabeyond]

10. since i am not 1-4 i will give you husband. he would be 4

and he does feel with it all be it black, female, gays or anything else. just who he is. comes naturally. cant say something nice, then dont.

and yes, it is repression. not at all the same with me.

on edit: a poster said some people dont liek any anger. see... that is another thing with him. walks away from it. wont be a part of it

[cornermouse]

7. Maybe it's not fear or racism or anger or nationalism.

Maybe we're just tired. Tired of all the back and forth accusations, tired of all the anger from both sides of the aisle, tired of people trying to manipulate us into their camp, tired of the entire primary.

And by the way, you're lying when you say you aren't accusing people but go ahead and pretend you aren't. I can't stop you.

[JerseygirlCT]

58. But what if that tired (and I do understand that!)

what if that tired means that we're too willing to bury things that aren't going to be healed unless they're given the light, and unless everyone is willing to engage?

[texshelters]

102. I don't know any of you

So how could I be accusing you when I don't? You however DID accuse me of lying. Thanks!

I am accusing the society in general of racism. Thanks a BIG difference.

Tex Shelters

[TygrBright]

Truth has a way of making demands...

...and I think some are afraid of what those demands might be. I'm not talking about tangible stuff like 'reparations' (noble conceptually but a powderkeg of unintended consequences practically) or even affirmative action, hiring preferences, etc. Rather the demands of changing how we view not just others, but ourselves, and our place in the society we share. Changing our self-image from 'someone who doesn't feel racist and therefore does not need to take responsibility for racism' to 'someone who benefits from a racist system and therefore bears an obligation to change that system.'

THAT is scary stuff.

Black anger about racism tends by its very existence to confront whites with the ongoing realities of still-existing racism and its long legacy. It breaks through the denial. It challenges.

reflectively,
Bright

[loyalsister]

34. I agree

I had a confrontational experience in truth recently.

I was talking to my neighbor who is African American. He showed me a bill of sale for a slave. He had found it when he was going through his recently deceased mother's stuff. It listed my home town for the location of the transaction.

Having grown up with a swimming pool in my yard and later going off to college, while this guy spent his life trying to eke out a living driving a truck, I stood there in full ownership of the benefits of institutional racism and our ugliest history. It really reinforced my commitment to rejecting the legitimacy of it at any level.

My neighbor has explained some things about race to me, very calmly. Whatever anger he may have he doesn't show me. I wouldn't blame him for feeling it, though.

I have talked with other African American friends about race and I respect their anger. I now literally know exactly where it comes from and won't deny the legitimate sense of betrayal many Americans of color must feel. I think it's because I felt betrayed to see that, myself. It was an experience I never wanted to have.
The real America is not what is advertised because equal citizenship is implicitly denied some people.

I had that experience fairly recently. I feel compelled to accept the challenge and make it my duty to reject any form of racism. From the most subtle to the most active.

[timtom]

8. To be perfectly frank

I had absolutely no issues with what he said. We agree on almost every point.

But his speech was clearly exclusionary. It is my perception that his congregation is mostly black. His vitriol was poured out upon the WHITE perpetrators, the WHITE power brokers...

My vitriol is poured out upon the PERPETRATORS, the POWER BROKERS regardless of race.

It's time we move away from divisive speech.

The WHITENESS of a power-monger is immaterial. If anyone thinks it is any different in South Africa now or in Liberia, then let them make an investigative journey of some sort to find that place where evil and injustice don't exist because of race and to share it with the rest of the world.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. One, two, and three.

[Lex]

11. Some can't deal with any kind of anger no matter its source.

nt

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. I think it is, in part, guilt

over how blacks were treated. When I researched my family tree, I was saddened to find out an ancestor owned one black slave in 1600s Massachusetts. I was hoping none of them had.

Part of it is fear--too many people see "crime" as a "black male"--this is shown over and over again on TV and in magazines.

I know that it is hard for me, simply looking at a black person, not to notice their skin color. And yet I have never had a black person call me a racist. I did shock one black principal for whom I worked. My first day, I went in her office, saw her portrait of Malcolm X, and said, "Thank you for having a picture of my brother on your wall." I went on to explain how Hajj changed him, and expressed my wish that somehow everyone could participate in a ceremony where color did not matter. Perhaps if more of us reached out, it could help us all "raise above the distinctions and differences which divide us" (from the prayer Khatum )

[KoKo]

32. But shouldn't we all bear "Collective Guilt" and Prosecute? What about Bush/Cheney Guilt?

For allowing them to do what they've done and the Bush Family before them...? Read Kevin Philip's "American Dynasty." Why should we pick apart what we've done when we are ALL GUILTY? :shrug:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

43. We shouldn't

but a lot of people operate from guilt. I've been told it is a German thing, a Jewish thing, and, who knows whoever else thing. But laying guilt trips on people has been a common practice.

[KoKo]

55. OMG...tell me about the Celtic GUILT! If we ALL SUFFER FROM GUILT...how CAN WE MOVE FORWARD...

SHEESH...the damned GUILT IS DRIPPING ALL OVER ME...dragging me down...draping me in a Shroud...so I gotta BURY MYSELF IN THIS GUILT! AYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!! THE GUILT!!!!! IT EATS AT MY SOUL!

IT GNAWS IN MY HEART!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

97. Simple(not easy, but simple)

Forgive. First forgive self, then others. Forgiving of self is, for many, a very difficult task.

[bryant69]

13. Clearly it's number 1 anybody upset about this kind of thing must be a racist

I particularly like your bit about how you aren't here to accuse anyone of anything and then immediately accuse.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Breeze54]

14. "afraid" to hear? I don't think anyone is afraid.

Do generalizations bother people? Yup!

Examples of Hasty Generalization

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html

snip-->

1. Smith, who is from England, decides to attend graduate school at Ohio State University. He has never been to the US before. The day after he arrives, he is walking back from an orientation session and sees two white (albino) squirrels chasing each other around a tree. In his next letter home, he tells his family that American squirrels are white.

2. Sam is riding her bike in her home town in Maine, minding her own business. A station wagon comes up behind her and the driver starts beeping his horn and then tries to force her off the road. As he goes by, the driver yells "get on the sidewalk where you belong!" Sam sees that the car has Ohio plates and concludes that all Ohio drivers are jerks.

3. Bill: "You know, those feminists all hate men."
Joe: "Really?"
Bill: "Yeah. I was in my philosophy class the other day and that Rachel chick gave a presentation."
Joe: "Which Rachel?"
Bill: "You know her. She's the one that runs that feminist group over at the Women's Center. She said that men are all sexist pigs. I asked her why she believed this and she said that her last few boyfriends were real sexist pigs. "
Joe: "That doesn't sound like a good reason to believe that all of us are pigs."
Bill: "That was what I said."
Joe: "What did she say?"
Bill: "She said that she had seen enough of men to know we are all pigs. She obviously hates all men."
Joe: "So you think all feminists are like her?"
Bill: "Sure. They all hate men."

--------------

Always, never, all are generalizations best avoided.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. I mentioned this in the other thread, but I think it is reparations that they don't want

to deal with, as much as collective guilt.

[BlueFireAnt]

16. Kinda off topic, and a repeat of my earlier post elsewhere, but.......

This country is run by rich white people, and probably always will. Racism is an invention of these rich white people. They use it to keep all of us poor Americans at each other's throats and keep our minds off of the real issue, class. If the underclass would ever unite for the common cause of taking back our country, the upperclass would crumble. They know this. That's why the media, both liberal and conservative pundits and anchormen, shove any black on white or white on back crime down our throats. That's why they are shoving this Reverend Wright story down our throats. You have the O'Reilley's and Limbaugh's fanning the flames of racism from the right, and the Sharpton and Jackson fanning the flames of the left. Note that Sharpton and Jackson are upperclass, and would like to stay that way. We underclass Americans need to wake up and see what's happening. Only then, can we make a real change. We need to look past this media charade and elect a bi racial president to show the powers that be that we are tired of having our strings pulled and we're gonna take this country back.

[texshelters]

105. That is right ON topic.

Racism and immigration hatred have been used in this country since the first English settlers landed as a way to keep the poor "at each others throats".

Yep,
Tex Shelters

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. Cross post: Deconstruct your subject

Why are whites afraid to hear black anger about racism?

1) "Why are whites..." is no less a stereotype than "Why are hispanics..."
2) Speaking for myself (which is all anyone can do) I am not "afraid to hear black anger" in a way that say, Reginald Denny might have been, because in my area I'm not a minority. I would simply be offended, but not afraid. A minority here might be both afraid and offended to "hear white anger".
3) Racism is a race-neutral term. If black anger is expressed in racist terms, whites (or asians or hispanics) are absolutely entitled to be offended by it.

That said, I understand Wright's frustrations, and although I disagree with his sentiments to the same degree that I disagree with many other preachers, I understand where it comes from.

[texshelters]

106. I was referring to the responses by whites

in the media, DU, and elsewhere that seemed to be appalled by this "racist black man" and wouldn't go into the context or history of racism. I know racism cuts all ways. Some whites are afraid of black anger about racism. I hear it all the time, even on DU.

Tex Shelters

[maxrandb]

18. Perhaps it's because

Anger doesn't solve anything, and you hate people who waste our time.

Perhaps what is needed is an honest, open and frank discussion about race, which is what I think Obama's speech could be the start of.

The problem with anger, is that all it tends to do is let people know that you are angry.

Pretty hard to solve any problems when you start from the point of

"You're all in the KKK"

or

"You're nothing but a Welfare Queen"

Granted, you may gain votes with either of those approaches, as Ronald Reagan proved, but it really doesn't address the core issue now, does it?

[OHdem10]

19. If you want a serious answer, I do not think it is fear.

I think it is a range of reaction from strong resentment to anger.

It sounds nicer to say fear, terrifying.

Minister Wright falls more in the line of Malcom X (violence)
rather than MLK (Peaceful). People are more concerned with
the Black Liberation Theology and Black Nationalism than
Minister Wright as an individual. It is what he represents
in their minds.

Many Americans over the years who watch C-Span have watched
Minister Farakon to learn what he is about. For years,
Farakon has said the same things--Aids etc.

It makes people angry that people like this can say things
that are Anti-White and get away with it but God help a
white person who says the slightest thing against blacks.

In other words the anger on both sides keep people from hearing
each other.

[arthritisR_US]

20. being white all I can say is that there is not one thing that the Reverend

said that was inaccurate. Taking things like "whites created aids, United States of KKK," "God Damn America" out of context is the same thing that neocon economists do when they lie with statistics.

"God Damn America"...if the "God" that everyone totes around is indeed a "God" of love then "He" would have damned America during it's period of inequity toward blacks and women.

For any blacks living during the time of the KKK's prominence they would have seen and felt the wrath of KKK's strong hold over high political offices and their infiltration into the justice system rendering no justice to the blacks of that time. So for those African American's it would have indeed been the "United States of the KKK".

Indeed, those whites who are so up in arms over his remarks haven't walked a mile in a black man's (woman's) shoes so like you I too think "Thou dost protest too much".

[knitter4democracy]

22. Same reason many men are uncomfortable with female rage, I suppose.

Remember Rush's term "feminazi"? That was more about women's rage than about anything else and that rage helping us fight misogyny.

I think hearing the other side can be quite uncomfortable. The rich don't like hearing from the poor how hard their lives are, adults don't like hearing from kids what's really wrong and going on in their schools, and many just plain are uncomfortable when a powerful African American man stands up and says that he isn't going to take it anymore.

[Karenina]

26. Power concedes NOTHING.

This is why I think you're all dreaming that an "election" in November will bring forth "change." The RW has been building its infrastructure into your gubmint for 45 years. You have yet to recognize the T-Rex you face. All this kerfluffle about Wright offers an opportunity to grasp it, but the denial is so entrenched...

[mdmc]

23. black anger makes us uncomfortable

Bill Cosby would never say such things...

[bobbolink]

24. why don't muddleclass and rich people want to hear anger about poverty?

Same/same.

[KoKo]

84. Middle Class in America today...isn't Rich...Folks are hurting...everywhere

and they've been told their "tax dollars" are paying for Medicaid and the folks behind them? :shrug:

Middle Class by Bushie standards ..today..could be poverty level... We are all in this..as the DEPRESSION COMES...

[bobbolink]

119. "We are all in this" Really? that's news to me. There sure isn't much

interest in poverty issues among liberals, progressives, and the dems in general.

So, maybe muddlclass people feel like they are all in it together.

But, they've sure left *us* out.

[Hamlette]

27. guilt n/t

[Quantess]

29. I am not afraid to hear about it, and many other whites aren't either,

so you are making a generalization about white people in your OP. Obviously not every white person is reacting like the FAUX-outraged talking heads.

[KamaAina]

30. 5. I'm white, and "in my heart, I know he's right"

especially when someone bothers to play the few seconds of the clip after the incendiary "God damn America". It's "God damn America" as long as she continues to treat black people like second-class citizens, etc., etc.

As much as the phrasing "God damn America" irritates me, I can't really come up with a response to that that shows that it's wrong.

[alittlelark]

92. I'm with you... great answer!

[ShadesOfGrey]

33. Number 4! Absolutely!

Do I need to show proof of my bi-racial family?

[annabanana]

35. No one likes their noses rubbed into their own bad behavior..

I think that's a big reason.
This may even be true of someone who's made genuine effort to police their behavior and make corrections.
It may be true of people who fully acknowledge the evil that was done by "people like them" whether they are guilty of more than taking advantage of the "automatic step-up" that comes with being born white in this Country ..or not.

[bobbolink]

36. "I'm sorry" isn't a sexy phrase... or it's very difficult to get out beyond the teeth...

:(

[BronxBoy]

38. I don't think the issue can be boiled down that simply....

First of all, not all Blacks are "angry" about racism. Some of us are angry. Some of us know it exists but it doesn't consume us. Some of us are more concerned about feeding our kids or making the mortgage. And some of us don't give a shit.

Not all Whites are afraid to hear Black "anger" about racism. Some are more progressive about this than people would think. Some of them know it exists but it doesn't consume them. Some of them are more concerned about feeding their kids or making the mortgage. And some don't give a shit.

The problem with having a serious dialog about race in this country is that it will force all of us to confront uncomfortable truths about ourselves. For example, I think a lot of well meaning White progressives are scared to ask pointed questions about some of the things occurring in the Black community. I mean my chances of being whacked by the KKK are pretty much slim to none. I stand a much greater chance of having my head blown off by someone who looks just like me. And why can't a White person question that. Come on, it's not ALL due to racism and the evilness of the White man. I mean, the inverse of your question would be "Why are Blacks afraid to hear White criticism of the pathologies in their communities?"

On the flip side, there are too many White people who cannot picture life as something other than White. I remember when those kids were shot in the van on the NJ turnpike and it led to the whole turmoil over racial profiling. To a lot of White people it was a new world they were learning about but we knew about it for years. Like AL Sharpton said, "It was like the White community thought we were suffering from collective paranoia when we said it was happening" Sean Bell got gunned down in NYC the night before his wedding. That doesn't happen in White communities.

Hey, race relations are not going to be improved by some magic bullet. No one man running for President will change the effects of our collective history. He may shine a light on it but we aren't going to wake up one sunny morning in fully integrated neighborhoods singing Kumbayya. Nope it's going to take Blacks, Whites and Hispanics putting aside our fears and engaging one another on a personal level.

Will it happen? Probably not. But one can try and hope

[Karenina]

42. BronxBoy

:yourock:

[enigmatic]

93. Great post

Thanks for this:thumbsup:

[ms liberty]

117. I wish I could recommend this reply...great post, BronxBoy...n/t

[tachyon]

41. Wright is just another asshole like Jerry Foulball and Pat ROBert$on.

They come in all colors.

[BronxBoy]

47. No He's not!

Falwell and Robertson had the ears of Sitting Presidents and their influence caused untold strife for fellow citizens who were "different"

Don't get it twisted.

[gollygee]

44. Because we as a group don't want to give up our privilege

so we dismiss our privilege or act like it isn't as big a deal as it is, and we act like racism isn't as big a deal as it is, and then to fully flesh it out we also cry "racism" whenever someone who isn't white dares to call us out on our privilege.

[Al Cleveland]

45. bullshit hate speech.

Its not that whites fear blacks anger over racism. Lord knows all the crap they have to put up with in the workplace and in general treatment everyday. They have every right to be angry! But bullshit is bullshit, it doesn't belong in a church. I left the catholic church because of crap that was much less offensive then much of Rev. Wright's rants. While many churches preach against gays and others. I make sure I don't go to them either. But to hear that the eloquent young charismatic man wanting to lead our nation has listened to such crap and not walked out is very, very disheartening and disappointing. I sure didn't raise my children to be racist and sure don't want a president who thinks they are because it is natural for whites to be that way. Bullshit is Bullshit and doesn't belong in Christ's church.

[BronxBoy]

46. Nor does it belong on the public airwaves

reaching millions of people everyday. But that's what Rush, O'Reilly and Hannity do everyday.

Many a person sat in a church on a Sunday morning in the deep south after lynching a nigger the night before. And I'm sure they were there for Christ.

Disappointed??? The Democratic Party let a judge be seated on the 5th Circuit Court of Appeal who though that the word NIGGER was akin to a term that would be applied to a teachers pet. And what did we get as a takeaway? Pelosi and Reid made headway on a budgeting bill

Yeah. Bullshit is Bullshit and it doesn't belong in the US Government

[JanMichael]

54. it does too. It belongs on the public airwaves, and it belongs in church

and until we have a government that is for "we the peeeeeple" it belongs there too.

[JanMichael]

51. So what do you think belongs in Christ's church?

surely you have read the fit Jesus threw when he overturned the tables of the money lenders?

Was that acceptable?

What should church be about in your opinion? Patting yourself on the back for that 20 bucks you sent to charity?

[Al Cleveland]

125. He threw out the money lenders for defiling the temple

He should be here today to overturn the BINGO tables of todays hypocrites. You go to church to try to become a better person yourself.

[spooky3]

53. welcome to DU, Al.

[housewolf]

48. Because whites today feel helpless about it

There's no way we who are alive today can fix what happened in the past. Many blacks today seem to be still affected by it, but there's really nothing white can to do un-do what was done in the past. Blacks keep blaming whites, whites are helpless to fix what happened.

All I, as a white, can do is be respectful to the blacks I come in contact with and try to understand their anger but I can't fix it.

[KoKo]

57. You know we "Whites" sacrificed alot for "AFFIRMATIVE ACTION" and BUSSING

of our Kids to GET ALONG. It's not like we are all RACISTS who didn't SUPPORT WHAT OBAMA WANTED SUPPORTED!

Let's get REAL HERE. OBAMA was in INDONESIA while folks were trying to INTEGRATE US ALL...because there was TERRIBLE Racial Inequality in AMERICA!

Don't try to say ...we DIDN'T WORK FOR CHANGE until "MESSIAH OBAMA" came along. :-(

[housewolf]

83. Of course we did

The entire country suffered during the Civil Rights era and it's aftermath.

It's wonderful to see the changes that have taken place since then. Kids today are much more accepting and color-blind than folks in the 60's. I'm not implying what you suggest at all. I'm an early baby boomer and grew up through it all too.

I's very sorry, but I gotta say that I don't know how to respond to your post. You appear to be very angry and upset about something but as I read your post, I don't get a clear idea of what it is that you're so angry about and how it relates to what I said in my post.

Peace

:yoiks:

[JerseygirlCT]

60. Yes, I know. And on an individual basis, that's all we can do

But I think there's a layer of societal commitment that's needed. And I think when someone (or someones) has been hurt, just recognizing that hurt can help. I think that's what Obama is saying here: we need to talk about this. We need to deal with this. Ignoring it is leaving an awful lot of people stewing in their anger - white and black and every hue. We all need to be better at listening to that with open ears if we're ever going to hope to move past it.

[seasat]

49. Because they think or hope everyone has short term memories.

I think it's a mostly American trait that the majority believes in short memories. The reasoning by many white people (and I shamefully admit I was one of these in my much younger years) is that, "It wasn't me that did that. It was my parent's generation. Why are you so angry?".

I grew up in the south and remember race riots when they integrated our schools in the 70s. My home town arrested Martin Luther King. The sheriff in the 60s was a noted racist and carried a walking cane that he used to randomly beat black folks. That kind of abuse takes several generations to heal. I realize that now that I'm older. I also realize that, while usually not as open, the racial prejudice of my parent's generation still persists today. Just like the justifiable anger from black folks, unjust racism still permeates below the surface of many white folks. It is passed on from our parents.

For some reason most Americans do not realize this short term memory of ours. Maybe it's because our history is so short when compared to Europe, Africa, and Asia. You can see this attitude in our foreign policy when we are shocked that the Persians in Iran chant Death to America. We only overthrew their government to put in place the bloody Shah then supported Sadaam in a war that killed an entire generation of their men. It's easier to blame the victim for not getting over the offense than doing the hard work to make things right. It's easier to blame another people for your own personal faults than objective self reflection.

[bamacrat]

50. They don't want to admit their right.

They don't want to acknowledge all the shitty stuff us crackers did. I would say number 1 and 2, maybe an occasional 3 but never 4.

[JanMichael]

52. Because we are pansy assed motherfuckers who can't stand

to admit that our skin color ALONE promises that we will benefit somewhat from this shitty system. The truth hurts.

I agreed with every word the man said, and Obama lost my vote maybe permanently when he pansied out and distanced himself from ewwwwwwww hate talk.

[KoKo]

63. What specifically of his comments caused you to say this?

I think it was today for me where he blamed "whites and his Grandmother." But, I don't know, yet, how folks outside view this ...:shrug:

[JerseygirlCT]

56. You know, I confess that I hadn't given it all that much thought before this

At least lately. But seeing so many other white people so inflamed by Wright's statements - when they don't seem all that excercised by those of other religious people - really had me questioning this, too. I think it's really, really uncomfortable for people to have to face our cultural history of racism. THEY aren't racists; they don't want to see themselves as at all complicit. And in an individual sense, they very well may not be. I know there's been in the past, parts of me that want to say "listen! My people weren't even here during slavery". But it's just less about individuals and more about our entire culture.

There's definitely something defensive, and threatened, about some of the people I'm seeing on the television railing against this "hatred" of Rev. Wright's. Maybe they're just not used to being the receiver of racially based accusations?

I think it's bound up with the innate idea that white is the default setting in our society. Whites grow up with that (mostly innocent) assumption. It's tough maybe to realize that not everyone sees it that way, and more, seeing it that way is deeply hurtful and offensive to other people.

You know how when you do something wrong, and someone calls you on it it's much easier if they don't give it too much weight, and allow you to just slink away? I think in some sense speech like some of Rev. Wright's is the injured party NOT allowing white America to save face and just forget the whole thing. It's embarrassing, and the tendency is then to get defensive.

I don't know, and really I can't pretend to know. I do know that I'm far more concerned with people like Hagee than I am with Wright, even if some of what Wright said was pretty awful (the Natalie Holloway stuff, for instance).

[KoKo]

64. Wright's comments to many Young Folks may not be a Big Deal but for us folks Older

it was VERY HURTFUL.

[JerseygirlCT]

68. Well, I suspect I fall on that older side at

47.

And I think some of what was said was untrue, and therefore hurtful.

At the same time, I tried harder to see the anger and the pain through different eyes. It's not my experience and I can't simply push it off as unimportant because I may not like hearing it.

I guess I can also understand some because I'm a woman. I have been told there are things I cannot do simply because of my gender. I've been excluded. Not nearly so much as Wright's generation of African Americans, but I've had a taste of that. And it pissed, and pisses, me off for sure.

It doesn't mean I think all men are asses. It *does* mean I think a system which perpetuates the supremacy of men is bad.

[KoKo]

71. I hear 'ya..

I agree with Reverend Wright in much of what he says...Just as I agree with Howard Zinn and sometimes Noam Chomsky.

But...I'm not sure Obama is really a believer of what Chomsky/Zinn have talked about. And...I worry about pushing Dem Agenda onto RACE RELATIONS as "THE" Issuer for '08 Election over BUSH/CHENEY CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY...and THE WAR!

I guess "Which Issue is More Important" seems to be what's coming up here.. I worry about OBAMA that he thinks that RACE IN AMERICA is more important than KILLING RACES in an ILLEGAL WAR...that hurts ALL OF US here in AMERICA...in what it's DONE TO OUR ECONOMY ..to make FUNDS AVAILABLE FOR THE "NEEDY" and MOST AMERICANS! (sorry for the FULL CAPS SHOUTING)....I just had to do it.. I think OBAMA is MISSING THE BOAT...making this ALL about RACE!

[JerseygirlCT]

72. Well, I don't think he wanted to go there

I think he made a concerted effort earlier in the campaign NOT to make this all about race. But after the uproar about Wright, he really didn't have a choice but to address it.

Since then, he's been trying to talk about Iraq and other issues. But the media seems to be stuck on the other story.

I totally agree with you - there just isn't ONE issue now. Unfortunately, thanks to the disastrous and evil Bush regime we have myriad problems that in any other time would demand immediate and passionate attention.

IOW, I don't think Obama thinks race is the issue. I think there's probably some synthesis there, actually. These problems aren't as separated as it might appear - war morphs into poverty morphs into race morphs into and so on.

[KoKo]

77. I hope that he will bring in what has been done to the Iraqi's into his Hope &..

Change"...because they are "people of color and religion," too. I hope to hear from him on this issue. He's not the only one who has been disenfranchised and persecuted for "being different" from what Bush/Cheneyites see as the "NEW WORLD ORDER." But..then the BUSH/CHENEY's see the "New World Order" as all about OIL and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'s associated with it...and FREE TRADE and "Private Contracting Government" to their Cronies! :-(

[JerseygirlCT]

95. I hope so, too.

What we've done in Iraq is a national embarrassment. Because of the actions of a few evil men, we're all now culpable for the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

[arthritisR_US]

120. Hurtful? At 51 I found his words anything but hurtful. What he presented

was the stark reality of what it was and is, to be black. I know it's a lot more convenient to sweep it under the carpet but hows that working for your country?

[KG]

59. because many whites believe in the fairy tale of the inherent benevolence of themselves and

by association, the good ol' USA itself.

even in this thread, whites seem to think that blacks are angry about 'past' indignities. pick up the clue phone, honkies, racism is alive and kicking an america today.

[JerseygirlCT]

61. It is. And it's probably pretty hard to see if you're not affected by it

I don't think that means by definition that people are less than benevolent, though. The tricky part is that while most individuals actually are pretty benevolent, too much of the system overall is not yet.

[JanMichael]

62. For some reason, the cellular clue phone hasn't been activated by

most ignorant honkies in our party.

Well...it will be soon.

[KG]

73. even mr obama himself seems to be tone deaf. i wasn't the least bit surprised by his attempt to

perpetuate the myth by distancing himself from from wright spot-on analysis of what america is really all about.

[KoKo]

67. I thought Obama's MESSAGE was to "MOVE ON!" Yet he pushes us into the PAST!!

He stirs up "Guilt for the Old" and while he seems to offer HOPE & CHANGE to the NEW GENERATIONS...he does it on the BACK of his GRANDMOTHER and the BOOMERS!

He's very CLEVER in how he Spins this...and maybe some of us who are Grannies and Boomers ...just don't get how GOOD HE IS at "Blaming US" and being such a Magnificent Politician that he could acctually DO THIS ...this TRASHING OF GRANDMA...and BOOMERS and have THOUSANDS looking at him in AWE at every RALLY...like the EVANGELICAL MINISTER...who is MOVING US ON....to that CHANGE ...he Sees is BEFORE US AS A NATION! :shrug: I guess...I'm too old to swallow it all whole...but I give him credit for trying.

[JerseygirlCT]

70. Moving on isn't possible without dealing with it though.

It's never going to happen until the hurts all around are recognized and really listened to.

Think of it this way: if a friend came to you and said: "you really hurt my feelings there. I didn't like the way you treated me", would you apologize quickly and hope it was all behind you or would you be willing to listen for a bit to her hurt? Would you be willing to really hear her first, and then sincerely apologize?

Now, the trick of course is that most of us, individually haven't really done anything. But we all, white and black and in-between, may have felt some of that hurt. So we have to all be able to listen to each other, without the defensiveness.

[KoKo]

74. I guess my sorrow is that I lived through the 60's and find this so much REDUX...

Given the PERILS that BUSH/CHENEY have put us through and Poppy/Reagan before them...I feel that ALL OV US ARE IN THE SAME BOAT! Red and Yellow, Black and White...we are all together in having our rights taken from us by the "Powers that Be." I can't get into OBAMA's Psychological Past...when I've been here in America through KKK and MLK. Obama was just a BABE...and grew up in HAWAII...where I grew up in the RACIST SOUTH and left it to move on an WORK FOR CHANGE...and now we are back to what OBAMA experienced...while he was young and sort of "out of the REAL EXPERIENCE' of having that "back seat on the bus" and those who fought to make him "have any seat on the bus he wanted." :shrug: I find him a whiner about stuff that doesn't focus on BUSH/CHENY...but the PAST OF AMERICA...that so many worked to overcome...and it's been GOOD PROGRESS...really...

[JerseygirlCT]

76. It's really sad that we're still working on it

But I guess I think that those who have suffered from it are better judges than this white woman about whether we're all past that now. I can't remove the anger, whether it's "justified" or not, you know? But if I can work to understand it, maybe that's a start.

I think Obama's said that he doesn't share that anger - the anger that Wright has expressed. He mentioned that it's the feeling of an older generation - the generation that fought to provide the changes that he himself has benefited from. So while he's not caught up in it, he can understand why they would still be on some level.

[KoKo]

78. But...shouldn't our anger be directed to what Bush/Cheney have done?

Why is this election all going on about RACE when folks seem to have voted Bush Cheney and Clinton before...and now all of a sudden there are BIG RACE Problems? THAT'S our MAJOR PROBLEM? Isn't our major PROBLEM...how we INVADED IRAQ? And what RACE are THEY? Isn't it always about the WHITE CHOSEN finding ANOTHER VICTIM? But don't the WHITE CHOSEN run through their own like the Irish and Welsh and others...to kill .. Who ARE THESE WHITE SUPREMISTS? WHO ARE THEY...that THEY KILL THEIR OWN..and ANYONE ...who THINKS Differently? Is it the "color of one's skin to the "Powers that BE" or that "ANYONE" who "THREATENS their Power" is the ONE they wil Go After? Is it Power....or Color of Skin? Or is it Dominance over Submission and Vulnerability? :shrug:

[Quantess]

86. Yep! Absolutely. (eom)

[JerseygirlCT]

96. I don't think we suddenly have a big race problem. We never really stopped

having a race problem. The majority just decided it was tired of dealing with it and waved it all away, you know?

It's not the only problem. But it's still a problem.

And while righteous anger at Bush/Cheney is easy for us to fell and therefore desire from others, it's just not up to us to tell people how to feel angry or where to direct it, you know? Again, we can listen, we can offer our thouhts - but we don't own their feelings and we can't control them.

[High Plains]

115. PLEASE stop WITH the WEIRD capitalization.

You're GIVING ME a HEADACHE.

[Mike03]

65. It would take me days and days to answer this question, because it is so

complex.

But maybe others can answer this question more efficiently than I can, because I'm sure the answer is universal.

For me, it's close to Number four, but it's more than that. It's also shame... But where it gets complicated is because many of us were not even born when there was discrimination against others, so it's guilt that is handed down to us from our grandparents.

And there's so much more, and I hope you will be open to asking and listening to all of it.

[KoKo]

75. The whole issue is SO COMPEX that the Chattering Obamites don't even want to "go there" or know

about...that they don't understand that the very "BOOMERS" and Older Folks that Obama TRASHES...are the very ONES WHO WORKED FOR HIM...while he was in Indonesia...and living in Hawaii and places that weren't the places of those of us who lived and worked against what he talks about in the SOUTH OF THE USA...while he was away from it all and too young to know it. :shrug:

[KoKo]

81. That's what's painful in his "Move on to Change and Hope." He doesn't get

that so many Americans have already LIVED through that...and now we are killing other people...like the Iraqi's that we Invaded! It moves on and on. I've tried to listen to him...but he doesn't speak about "those killings." He wants to trash an America that has tried to move on...and an America that has African-Americans on the Boards of Directors of Wall St. Companies (Time-Warner for one) and so many others in the Bush II Administration who seem to not really care about the "wings that were beneath their own wings." Mostly because they were benefits of NOT HAVING TO BE WHITE...to Succeed due to Civil Rights Movement.

I don't know why Obama wants to trash the generation who fought for him not to be the "Back of the Bus?"

:shrug:

[texshelters]

113. So, why do you need to insult Obama supporters to make a point?

Just wondering.

Besides, your comment isn't even on topic. You just seem to want to discredit Obama.

Write your own post if you want to do that.

Tex Shelters

[Mike03]

66. P.S. if your post is sincere, it most certainly deserves a recommendation. NT

[texshelters]

114. I really want to know

I am disconcerted to hear all the backlash against Obama that seems motivated by fear and racism.

It seems Wright's comments have given the racist in waiting an excuse to attack Obama for being black.

I thought I could learn here. I certainly have.

Tex Shelters

[Booster]

69. Cause Blacks can kick our ass and we know it.

[KoKo]

79. Into "Sports" much? Sheesh.. "blacks can kick our ass." Sounds like ESPN...

:eyes:

[El Pinko]

80. A lot of us feel like we've never participated in racism and don't deserve to be berated for it.

I've been told on numerous occasions that I'm the beneficiary of "white privilege".

If this is privilege, I'd hate to see hardship.

[KoKo]

82. Just because you personally weren't involved...doesn't mean you don't have "Collective Guilt."

That's what's wrong with where Obama is going with this. It's like we have to go back in our past to dig up the Civil War that he talks about his Grandmother being racist and making him "cringe."

What about the Iraqi's we've killed? The women, children and men and older who have been "collateral damage" to the Bush Empire?

[El Pinko]

85. My grandmother was a racist who made me cringe. I also loved her dearly.

Such is life - few issues are "black and white" so to speak. I don't believe in collective guilt, though. I did what little I could to try and prevent the Iraq invasion as a citizen.

If anyone should be held to the fire on that question, it should be all the other nations of the world who should have stood up to the US and stopped it from mounting an unprovoked attack on Iraq.

Had they united in opposition to the US, Bush WOULD HAVE backed down.

But as a citizen of the corporate McPravda US, even standing in the streets with a few million friends accomplished nothing.


BTW - I don't have a problem with anything Obama said. I think his statements and the feelings he addresses are totally valid. I just don't like to be PERSONALLY blamed for acts I had nothing to do with.

[KoKo]

88. We who stood on those streets and notified our Congress Critters that we were against it

BEFORE the Invasion...did what we could. Even those of us who participated in MOVE ON.ORG's Petition of Thousands of E-Mails and Letters that they delivered to the UN before the Invasion to French and German Ambassador's to UN...couldn't stop it. Move On said it was boxes of replies they hand delivered.

I never understood why they didn't stop it...except Bush and Blair were United in doing it. Maybe they thought like some of the feckless members of our Congress that Bush/Cheney would make it a short invasion like Poppy. Everyone really underestimated Bush/Cheney and who was running them.

But..there still had to be complicity...and maybe "pay offs" that were involved that we will find out many years from now that they were so willing.

I don't like Obama's putting guilt on me, either.

[texshelters]

110. My grandma used the N word

Once when we were visiting my grandmas favorite restaurant she said after looking around,
"This place is turning into n....r heaven!"

I was shocked but she still love me and I her. I was too young to confront her.

Point: Yes, if Obama had only confronted Reverend Wright...

Tex Shelters

[Mister Ed]

87. I think those who hold undue and unearned power...

...are always fearful of those over whom they hold power.

So, I think the answer is #2.

[KingFlorez]

90. They just don't want to face the truth

There are some very, very terrible things in history and some people don't want to hear the truth. They choose to pretend as if anger is irrational.

[Raksha]

91. K & R - good discussion!

I'm not saying I agree with everyone (there's no way I could), but you asked some good questions and you brought up a very important distinction: black anger at white racism past and present is NOT the same thing as "black racism."

I'm kind of surprised nobody else has recommended this thread so far.

[VotesForWomen]

94. no one is 'afraid' of it; it's just not a good campaign strategy. nt

[Karenina]

98. It's a much bigger taboo in America

To point out the ravages of racism than to face head-on the behaviours, mindsets, or systems that promote it.

Usually goes something like this:

WP: Now that he's got the position, he'll be running after white women how much you wanna bet.

BP: What a grotesque thing to say! He can date who he wants.

WP: Are you calling me a racist?

BP: What I SAID was that was a grotesque thing to say.

WP: HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A RACIST! MY FATHER MARCHED WITH MLK!

BP: What I SAID was that was a grotesque thing to say.

WP: YOU MAKE ME SICK! YOU'RE RACIST AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE!

BP: :SIGH: See ya later.

WP to WP2: That N***** had the nerve to call ME a racist! I'm not a racist am I?

WP2: OF COURSE NOT!

And on and on and on...

[treestar]

99. So far from what I have learned of them, Wright's comments don't bother me

They are mostly true.

The AIDS thing I doubt is true but I can understand people thinking it.

The average white person feels guilty about it and then when it is brought to the fore, resists, because they think they haven't personally done anything. There is a collectiveness to it that goes against the grain of American individualism, maybe?

I think generally #1 is not true, except for extremists. Regular right wingers have become racists out of resentment - this is a backlash resulting from the extremists such as - usually they name Farrakhan or Jessie Jackson (who I do not agree falls into that category, but wingnuts always mention him). They decide they are not guilty of the charge of racism and thus play the victim, claiming those forces they identify as Farakhan and Jackson are the ones who are racists, hate them just because they are white, etc. So right now they are in an orgy of self pity over that mean Rev. Wright blaming them for things they never did. :sarcasm:

[tjwash]

101. Well, before you dismiss a statement as "insane", do a little research, and you'll find...

..."the insane, 'whites created aids'" statement is actually not that much of a leap.

Where would anyone in the black community get the idea that AIDS was disseminated by the government? And hell, that 'study' only went on for 30 years!

Paranoid maniacs! :eyes:

[texshelters]

112. I know that the governement infected Native and African Americans

with gonorrhea and syphilis among other things. However, I have read up on the AIDS virus transmission and have not seen the link from whites to black in the dissemination of the virus. However, a broader point can be made that those receiving treatment for the HIV infection were wealthy and predominately white people. The health care system is classist and racist and must be changed.

Tex Shelters

[drexel dave]

103. Use the word, some whites

and you'll be much more accurate and less offensive.

I'm not offended in the least, but folks who get lumped into "they" and when you say "whites" when referring to some whites, is the same as saying, "why do blacks love fried chicken."

Let's start letting individuals have to answer for themselves, and let's stop labeling entire groups of people as this or that only because of the color they were born with, which isn't something anyone has any control of.

[texshelters]

107. Yes, I could have been more accurate

I should have said "some whites." I guess I was getting tired of hearing all the racist backlash on DU and elsewhere.

Tex Shelters

[texshelters]

109. I would like to add

that I didn't write "all whites" so the implication that I meant "all whites" was added by your interpretation of the words, and not implicit in the question. Others took no offense.

Tex Shelters

[Schema Thing]

104. Because generally speaking, humans are pussies

[ananda]

108. IMNSVHO

The Whites who need to hear the angry Black message
have assuaged themselves of their racism by being
pleased with tokens like Condi Rice, Colin Powell,
and Clarence Thomas.

[Greyhound]

111. Because Americans, whites particularly, are afraid of everything.

They know, possibly subconsciously, that they are simply prey to the rapacious culture they've been bred into, and so live in a state of constant fear.

[sunnystarr]

116. Not just the insane, "whites created aids"

Maybe it's not so insane after all. After hearing someone call in on C-Span this morning saying it happened I did a little looking ...

On May 11, 1987, The London Times carried a cover story connecting the World Health Organizations' African small pox vaccine programs with the outbreak of AIDS in Central Africa Robert Gallo agreed that the World Health Organization vaccine program, which inoculated millions of blacks, could have awakened the "dormant" AIDS virus. This extremely important story was killed in the United States, and the story never appeared on television or in any major newspaper.

What facts are known and documented are:

• The documentation shows that the World Health Organization was warned in 1972 of the serious consequences of a growing world population and the need for population control.

• The World Health Organization authorized the study of anti-immune disease experiments.

• The United States Congress in 1970, authorized $10 million for development of a new synthetic disease which would attack the human immune system. Such a disease was to become part of the U.S.
biological and chemical warfare arsenal.

• The United States government authorized the use of tests of an experimental hepatitis B vaccine to be used on indigenous people and gay males in targeted cities. A high percentage of those receiving the experimental vaccine died of AIDS or are dying of AIDS.

• The World Health Organization used a small pox vaccine in Central Africa which it admits caused the outbreak of AIDS in the region.

• The native population of Alaska has suffered numerous diseases after being targeted as an experimental field testing area by the United States. They were also subject to the experimental hepatitis B vaccine and AIDS was the result.

Records on persons subjected to the 1981 experimental hepatitis B vaccine have be appropriated by the U.S. Army on the eve of a major worldwide Health Conference in Alaska That conference was set to hear the native protests and documentation of what the native population is calling "genocide".

http://www.whale.to/b/martin.html

And don't bother to post the "conspiracy theory" crap. Yes I know it may just be that but I also know that the truth is often spun as conspiracy theories to keep it hidden in the open and not believed. The powers that control us know how to make us believe what they want us to and how to cover their asses. It may be that Rev. Wright received credible evidence of this.

[Karenina]

129. See: PNAC Rebuilding America's Defenses.

'nuff said.

[eilen]

118. I think this goes beyond racism, it is the red herring designed to separate us.

I thought about your main question about "why are (some or many) white people afraid to hear black anger about racism?"

I had to examine myself. I really can't speak for anyone else.

In the instances where I have been confronted by an angry black person because I am white and not the same as them, I felt it was unfair. I had done nothing to her, yet she looked on me with hatred and anger. I could be her sister. It seemed to me to be illogical.

One time I ran into a black guy I worked with. He was a really nice man. We were at the grocery store. He was in line after me. I checked out and waited for him. As he was checking out, the clerk examined his money to ensure it was not counterfeit. She had not examined my money. I was really pissed. I said "what is your problem, you don't know what money looks like?" I had to conclude she had racially profiled him. I was pretty incensed by it, he was very laid back, resigned but he knew his cash was real and that it would be fine.

This clerk probably thought nothing of this. So far as she was concerned, she was required to check all bills $20 and over. My perception was that she was racially motivated. His perception may be that any and all actions are racially motivated and that is the way it is. If he got angry every day, it would bring him down, he would lose a lot of energy on it. So maybe on Sundays, in his church, he can vent it out.

My frustration with the racism problem is that there never seems to be a solution, it seems so subjective but at the same time I am aware it is very present. There is racism everywhere, amongst all racial and ethnic groups in every country--not just limited to whites. As an individual, I feel pretty powerless to change other's perception and I refuse to feel or take responsibility for any guilt associated with this. All I can do is work on myself. I can't change other people. But when it comes to my interactions with others, I can be conscious of my own thoughts and be cognizant of my prejudices and take care to treat people with compassion and feelings of connectedness rather than a meme of otherness and difference.

When it comes to a person's religion and where they go to lay down their hurts, suffering, and send their prayers to God or their higher power, I believe that is none of my business. Lamentations and suffering and pleas for change and forgiveness is what this is. The pastor's job is to use words and emotions to move people to make changes in their lives. This pastor was trying to move people to release the desire to use violence as revenge for the events but saying, "Hey! We're not so innocent, we have to look to ourselves to see how this horror of 9/11 had been manifested." I also think he was working towards convincing his congregation to reject violence in response to this. The place to effect change is always with ourselves. He was not inciting a riot or a revolution. He was not telling people to rob and murder white people.

"god damning America" Well. a lot of people have been doing that and been called UnAmerican and getting upset about that. We have freedom of speech and sometimes people we look up to, people we love, say things we don't like. Whether we don't like it because it is true, or if it makes we look at things we don't want to see or if we merely disagree, the important thing is, is to listen, have a conversation and respect each other. This country has become so polarized because we have become accustomed to rejecting and abandoning people because they have a different opinion than us. We are afraid to talk to people and voice our opinion because they might reject us or we might have to reject them. That is stupidity and it plays right into the hands of those in power because it keeps us fighting each other instead of looking at them. Classic triangulation. When we don't communicate we are kept in the dark. This isn't just relevant to the neocons and the business of red state/blue state and the Rush Limbaughs and other little firebombers out there in tv land--by meaning it is not just a Democrat/Republican thing. It is universal and has become very apparent by the tenor of the boards here during primary season. So, I ask people to look at who is doing the finger-pointing and demonizations and to consider what might be motivating them to do that. Who do they want to stop from talking to each other? Why would they want the dialogue to stop? What do they have to gain from people turned away from each other rather than working together? What people are they targeting?

[Festivito]

121. Are they? Are you sure? Perhaps the media presents an easier path.

Perhaps most Americans and people in general have no place in which to speak at length. The water cooler time needs to be over in time to satisfy fear of a boss. Thus speed of argument dismissal may not indicate only fear of the argument content.

Just that the content may extend the timing to an uncomfortable length.

Yes, there are those poor souls who have no one else to kick. But, let us pray their number of votes constitute a quietly ineffective minority in any democracy.

Our media have many operatives for the monied-now-Repug side. They lead the way of easy dismissal. People flow like water, into lesser resistance.

[yurbud]

122. for the same reason they fear black guys dating white women--they know it's deserved payback

unconsciously, they know the scope of the sin and how great the anger SHOULD be.

They know that if they listen and acknowledge it, they might feel compelled to do something about it, and that something might cost them money and power.

[nomorenomore08]

123. Latecomer to this thread, but I think one major reason is that people,

maybe especially Americans, have trouble understanding nuance. Everything is seen in black and white (no pun intended) - either you're with "us," or you're with the terrorists - either you love America the way an infant loves its parents, or you want to destroy it - either you have no issues with people of another race, or you hate them with a passion.

You see this kind of thinking in the way that Wright's words have been characterized as a blanket "white-people-are-evil" statement, which of course they aren't at all. OF COURSE not every individual white person is to blame for past atrocities and present injustices - they may have an advantage in this society, but most have little to no power to truly change things. That our ruling class, past and present, happens to be white, male, and (nominally) Christian is largely immaterial - what's really important is the fact of an elite few lording it over everyone else.

The key here, I think, is to recognize the difficulty and complexity of these issues, and not be afraid of one's own role in them. After all, we have no control over what race/gender/etc. we're born as. All we can really control is how we relate to the world and how we treat people.

[windoe]

124. Because self examination is 'hard work'

-harder for people who have lived their lives in homogeneous communities, with little direct experience with other races, cultures and ideologies.
Someone who lives in a diverse community has far more opportunity to work out differences, test personal assumptions of others and grow in tolerance and education.
This discussion of racism is long overdue. A discussion involves listening, and I think that I would begin this discussion by listening to African Americans, Native Americans and other minority peoples and giving them the voice they have been denied. We require courage to face these issues, because we will hear of all the atrocities, present and past-hopefully we have what it takes. This is part of the process of healing-then we need to decide what must be done to rectify these injustices, and most importantly not to get stuck in stages of anger, grief and blame.
Racism has wounded this country badly, enabled wars, poverty and lack of education, and I think the last 8 years have shown us glaringly how much work we have to do to heal.

[Karenina]

126. Great post , windoe!

LISTENING is key. Racism is the primary factor that has your *MIC committing genocide in Iraq with nary a word from those in whose names it's being done.

[NM Independent]

127. #5

I'm not bent out of shape at all.

Why? Because I recognize that nothing he said was racist. The only thing even close was saying that the country is run by rich white people. Well, show me a some statistic that shows different and I'll shit us a golden brick, so we can both be rich. Another thing he said was about the Govt/AIDS theory (it was Govt/AIDS, NOT whites/AIDS). Well, I've heard this for a long time, and it has less to do with the blacks in America than it has to do with blacks in Africa. Additionally, just because the first time people are hearing it is from the Rev. Wright, doesn't mean that he's the one starting some rumor. I've heard that theory many times in the past. Now, the AmeriKKKa does kind of tweak me a little bit mostly because it has been a long time since those bastards have gotten away with a march - that I know of anyway, and they are certainly a tiny minority. To equate all of America to the KKK is just way overdoing it. Yes, there is inherent racism in every race, but to the KKK degree is a stretch too far as to be inexcusable. That's the only one I have a problem with, but really, why should I care? Every preacher gets a little crazy sometimes, and if that's the worst they could find out of 20 something years, then I'm not at all worried. Some of the things I've heard at church are just downright appalling. Far worse than anything did or might've said.

[NM Independent]

128. None of the above...

So, how about #5 - I'm not bent out of shape at all.

Why? Because I recognize that nothing he said was racist. The only thing even close was saying that the country is run by rich white people. Well, show me a some statistic that shows different and I'll shit us a golden brick, so we can both be rich. Another thing he said was about the Govt/AIDS theory (it was Govt/AIDS, NOT whites/AIDS). Well, I've heard this for a long time, and it has less to do with the blacks in America than it has to do with blacks in Africa. Additionally, just because the first time people are hearing it is from the Rev. Wright, doesn't mean that he's the one starting some rumor. I've heard that theory many times in the past. Now, the AmeriKKKa does kind of tweak me a little bit mostly because it has been a long time since those bastards have gotten away with a march - that I know of anyway, and they are certainly a tiny minority. To equate all of America to the KKK is just way overdoing it. Yes, there is inherent racism in every race, but to the KKK degree is a stretch too far as to be inexcusable. That's the only one I have a problem with, but really, why should I care? Every preacher gets a little crazy sometimes, and if that's the worst they could find out of 20 something years, then I'm not at all worried. Some of the things I've heard at church are just downright appalling. Far worse than anything did or might've said.

[Rene]

130. Absolutely not afraid. Ticked Off !!!!!!!!

[Rosemary2205]

131. Sometimes it has nothing to with fear.

I live in a relatively poor county that is turning to shit fast. Teh demographics have changed dramatically over the last 10 years from primarily white, middle class to primary black lower middle to lower class. The whites who are here are generally those who can't afford to move. When a black man tells them they are to blame for what it happening in their neck of the woods it just goes over like a lead balloon.

There are a lot of generationally lower income whites, relatively powerless, who work their asses off and can't get anywhere. Telling them the plight of the black man is their fault is counterproductive to say the least.

Telling them who the enemy of all poor people really is would accomplish so much more.

[DeSwiss]

133. How about a fifth choice?

They don't know the http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/0684818868">truth?

[Withywindle]

134. I think there's a fifth option

Ignorance of history, or at least, desire to believe in a sugar-coated version of history.

One of the worst side effects of American anti-intellectualism is a refusal to take interest in or understand events that happened outside our own lifetimes. Even being asked to really give serious, soul-searching thought and imaginative empathy to slavery or Jim Crow or lynching is often seen as this beyond-the-pale personal affront because "I had nothing to do with it!" Well, not you PERSONALLY, no. But there's a lot more to this country than just currently-living-individuals personally, and there's no real, lasting forward motion possible unless the generations now alive take a serious look at how we got to where we are.

[McCamy Taylor]

136. Why bring up history? There is plenty to be angry about now.

Blacks are incarcerated, beaten, treated as guilty until proven innocent, blamed for all the ills of society right now Black men make much less than White men. They are called scary, rapists. Toxic waste dumps are built in Black communities. Black infant mortality is sky high. They are disenfranchised and no one does a thing about it.

This is not yesterday. This is today. NOLA is today. It has all been getting worse under Bush. It makes me mad as hell, and I am not even Black. This country is seriously fucked up. You have to be a blond woman for the television stations to give a damn. I am a blond woman. I reject their racist sympathy. I don't want them to plaster my picture all over the screen as if I mean something when they ignore millions of other Americans because the Republicans tell them they have to in order to keep the Southern working class divided so that Southern Whites will vote Republican.

[Withywindle]

141. I didn't mean to imply there wasn't!

I was more responding to the idea of white people who don't want to hear about things in the past - as if it's not relevant to what's going on today.

[McCamy Taylor]

135. Guilt and low self esteem mostly.

If they feel guilty because they actually harbor racist thoughts or have done things which are hurtful to minorities, then they feel that they are being called out, and so of course they get mad when their "inferiors" have the nerve to defy them. They may even be scared. That is why people are prejudiced in the first place. They need to make themselves feel tough.

Another problem is that I think that all Whites secretly understand that they only have it as good as they do because a bunch of minorities get exploited by the system. Since Americans are taught to value fairness and hard work, this is obviously wrong. But people do not want to give up their advantage. If they know that they are more likely to get a job or less likely to get a ticket or more likely to be believed by the police they want to keep it that way. Since the majority of White America has never gone out of its ways to equalize things---has never tried to say "I reject this advantage that I am being given just because I am White"---when they hear about the hidden anger and resentment, they feel guilty, because they know that there was more that they should or could have done. Read Faulkner if you want to get a feel for how messed up White guilt and fear can make a group of people.

Then there are always people in any group who suffer from low self esteem and who can not stand it when they are around anyone whom they think is criticizing them. Even if there is no actual personal criticism. This is why young parents sometimes kill their children who are crying. The kids are crying because their tooth hurts or they are hungry or tired or have colic, but the young parents start feeling like the kids are crying in order to annoy the parents as if the kids are saying "You are bad! I hate you!" And the young parent's fragile ego can not take it. Lots of violence starts because of weak egos.

And then there are a few White folks who do not see what the fuss is all about. They would be plenty mad if they were treated the way that Blacks are treated in this country too. Case in point, Irish-Americans still hate the British for treating their ancestors the way American Blacks were treated after Reconstruction ---disenfranchised, unable to own property, subject to arrest at whim, raped, paid subsistence wages, used as scab labor in England to bust unions. It would be nothing to hear a modern Irish-American swear "God damn England!" The Irish will not apologize for their lingering resentment. They would get mad if anyone expected them to. And Ireland is finally free.

[lightningandsnow]

137. I learned this at an "Unpacking White Privilege" workshop I took last year -

People, unless they're of the blatantly racist variety, don't like to confront their own racism and hidden biases. Liberal-minded people generally like to think - no, THEY can't be racist! Most people harbor some racism and white people benefit from white privilege, but they don't like to acknowledge that.

So when someone like Wright comes along and gets people to question their own racism, it scares people. Because they don't like to think that they could be racist.

[Ordr]

139. ..."Unpacking White Privilege" workshop?

White guilt is being institutionalized now?

[ProfessorGAC]

142. And One Needs A Workshop To Belabor The Obvious?

Sheesh! Both institutionalized and condescending. What a deal that workshop must have been, huh?
The Professor

[Mezzo]

138. why do blacks not think they can be racist too?

United States of KKK A *IS* unconscionable, no matter how you tackle it.

[ProfessorGAC]

140. I'm Not Afraid

And i'm white. You're not helping anything by using the same sort of broad brush as the racists. It's not productive.
The Professor