HUGE GOOD NEWS! Flux Capacitor Invented....Hydrogen Fuel Breakthrough!...3x energy output vs input

[masmdu]

WOW! This will make such a huge difference...Think about it, 3x energy output vs input! HUGE!

http://www.livescience.com/php/video/player.php?video_id=080207-hydrogenfuel

[lligrd]

1. K&R

[lonestarnot]

2. Whoa.... way cool!

K & R

[Captain Angry]

3. WRONG!

They invented Mr. Fusion, NOT the Flux Capacitor.

:-)

[masmdu]

6. RIGHT you are! :)

[Spider Jerusalem]

4. That just isn't possible.

Conservation of energy. The additional energy inputs in the process apparently come from bacteria.

Also, a 3x return on energy expenditure is still not equivalent to oil, which as an energy source has 10-20x return on energy expenditure. This is neither a replacement for oil nor a magic bullet for our looming energy crisis.

[napoleon_in_rags]

8. Its possible.

The bacteria increase the total entropy of the system. Given banana peels, the bacteria take the solar energy that went into the banana plant out, is one way to look at it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. Note that I observe the additional inputs come from bacterial action...

and you still don't address the issue of this being an inadequate replacement for petroleum (note differential in energy input vs return).

[napoleon_in_rags]

12. It is inadequate, you're right.

My research points to the fact that there is no adequate replacement for petroleum, therefore we are in for a big, long slow screw...

:(

[tachyon]

40. You're partly right but what we want and need is DEcreasing entropy.

:D

Which is what the little bugs are doing.

[napoleon_in_rags]

43. Its a matter of perspective, but mine is entropy ALWAYS increases.

Because entropy is defined for a closed system. Put some banana seeds, and the nutrients they need for life in a closed system, nothing will happen, because entropy is high. But you start pouring in energy in the form of heat and sunlight, the bananas will grow, entropy will appear to be decreasing, because we have energy pouring in from the sun. You actually have to take the sun pouring out its energy into account to realize the entropy of the system (the solar system) is still increasing, though just watching the bananas grow it seems to be decreasing.

So the bananas lock up the energy of the sun in their low entropy chemical system. Then you can put em in a closed space with the bacteria, that suck out the "sunlight" that made their complex structure possible, and return them to their basic nutrients, hydrogen included. Entropy increase....the way I see it, all energy, for this reason, is solar.

[tachyon]

48. Okay...but of course the only true closed system is the universe.

:D

We can maneuver energy around and muck with local entropy (and enthalpy) but the total S always increases (as far as we know - Heinlein's Waldo notwithstanding) :-)

[napoleon_in_rags]

53. hehe. yeah, I guess that's the catch 22.

The definition of entropy itself contains a fantasy "closed system". Seems to be a useful enough idea in describing how my life is always going to crap though... ;)

[Orsino]

51. Actually, all the story claims is that the extra electrical energy they pump in...

...increases the hyrogen output by an amount "worth" three times the electricity. The biomass is simply consumed faster.

They've presumably optimized the reaction rate by adding a little juice.

[opihimoimoi]

5. Volume of product = production from given Area/ cubic V/production energy/labor/etc

So far...sound feasible and a move in the right direction....

from garbage/human waste/etc....we can reap energy...every bit counts...solar, wind, tides, wave, etc will add to the existing systems incl fossil sources///

We can do it if we desire it enough...

[bushmeister0]

7. I always thought it was kind of ironic that the hydrogen fuel cells

for one of the Apollo space craft is on display at the Air and Space Museum. These things took man to the Moon and we're looking for an alternative to fossile fuels as a matter of survival and these things are a museum piece? Where are our priorities?

[Warren DeMontague]

9. Don't worry, the neo-luddites will be along soon to tell you science is evil, we're all doomed,

and really the only thing we can do to save the planet is all move into mud yurts... or better yet, just kill ourselves and be done with it.

[Indenturedebtor]

10. LOL

Well said.

This is very exciting stuff! Could save a lot of room in landfills as well! I hope that this comes quickly to market!

[madokie]

26. Renewable Environmental Solutions, LLC, Carthage, MO is another step in the right direction

http://www.res-energy.com/
Renewable Environmental Solutions, LLC (RES) is a company that converts agricultural waste material into renewable diesel and other products, utilizing Thermal Conversion Process (TCP) technology.

[TZ]

18. well either that

or the free energy/perpetual motion machine has already been invented and is being suppressed by us evul scientists....:P

[SpiralHawk]

20. The original Luddites were right in many ways...

One of their big beefs was the notion that industrialization and factory work (12 hours a day, six days a week) would undermine the family and destroy 'family values." But the republicons of that day said "shut up and sit down."

[gear_head]

13. not as good as... the Q36 Explosive Space Modulator n/t

[Norrin Radd]

14. Flux Capacitor? Great Scott!

[WinkyDink]

44. Or "Dr. Scott!" ;)

[Recursion]

15. Not to be a pedantic EE grad student or anything...

...but wouldn't a "flux capacitor" just be an inductor?

[tachyon]

41. Measured in Henrads?

:rofl:

[Berry Cool]

16. What I want to know is,

did anyone have to hit their head on the toilet to figure this out?

[masmdu]

17. Kick for morning crowd

[hatrack]

19. Perpetual Motion Machine - Never Runs Down! Huge Investment Potential!!!

:eyes:

[masmdu]

21. Umm did you listen to the clip?

[hatrack]

25. I don't NEED to listen to the clip. The same kind of shit has been around since Archimedes

It's something for nothing, and it's an amazing investment opportunity.

Just like "cold fusion". Just like goat gland injections. Just like (fill in the blank).

[masmdu]

27. Wrong...Penn State Research....Amazing arrogance that you comment on something w/o knowing details

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Indenturedebtor]

29. Hah

Funny funny. He's selling stock in a university... that's it!


Look 3x or not, this is a huge step forward. If nothing else it will help to deal with all the agri waste. You don't think that it's actually composted right now do you? I wish it was. We generate so much damn waste with that stuff it's rediculous. And does anyone know the efficiency of Ethanol and Bio-Diesel production? Even if it's higher this could run our cars without driving the price of food up and putting down more fertilizer.

[masmdu]

31. Funny...Penn State is a ''Stock"...Funny

[slampoet]

33. Wow. There are none so stupid as those that make themselves that way.

I know some of the science behind this and YES I am skeptical.

Everyone should be.


But to take such a superiority attitude about willful ignorance is very unscientific.


Even the MIT people that I associate with (some of whom are borderline Asberger's) would have been at least polite in their condemnation and because

A) They don't need to name call because they understand the concept and can defeat or support the idea on its merits.

B) They know things in science change radically all the time even physics law though to be eternal.

C) They know they might have to work with that person sometime in the future.



The only reason to be rude in a science discussion is when you are wrong and too stupid to either know or admit it.

This issue is still up for grabs.......

....but either way hatrack has lost the conversation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. I had the same reaction, the subject is somewhat misleading.

The breakthrough is a process by which bacteria can be stimulated via electricity to generate meaningful quantities of hydrogen.

The hydrogen produced is 3X the electricity that the bacteria require. This discounts the energy required to collect/create the biomass and to collect/compress the hydrogen.

[DCKit]

47. That's not the point!!!

You have to be "for" or "agin" it. There is no option of talking sense or bringing up anything remotely related to the OP when discussing energy issues. :sarcasm:

These discussions always seem to break down to "It won't work, the science is bad", "It's too expensive, we can't afford it", "It won't replace 100% of our gasoline use, so why bother?". This is the first time I've seen the argument that "They're cheating 'cause they're using bacteria to game the system and increase the production of H2."

Besides, they're torturing the bacteria with electric shocks, so it's inhumane.

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. Shocks? I wonder how much H2 they'd generate if we waterboarded 'em? n/t

[DiverDave]

22. The quest for renewable energy took a baby step

yes its only 3x, but ya gotta admit it looks promising.

[masmdu]

23. EggZactly!

[Occulus]

37. Yes it does.

This seems to be closer to realization, though.

Bussard himself gives a talk on it here.

[DainBramaged]

24. I make hydrogen from organic matter every day

and copious amounts too. We just have to figure out a way to separate it from the methane.

Cow farts, yeah, that's the ticket! Strap a "collection apparatus" on their butts for collection.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[slampoet]

34. Actually Alaska villiagers have used decaying matter to heat their houses with methane for decades.

Also dung is one of the best fuel sources for the emerging world.



You remind me of the man who laughed at my grandfather for getting an other "Collection apparatus" called the Milking Machine.

That laughing man's family doesn't farm now.



You don't need much of a special collection device for methane.


Fact is You're standing in it.


Just like your post.

[DainBramaged]

35. So humor escapes you??

Goodbye, I have no patience for this BULLShit any more. I choose not to ever read yours again.

[fenriswolf]

36. pioneers use to use buffolo "chips" for fire instead of wood

because their were no trees on the plains.

[a kennedy]

30. wow!! great news!!

:patriot:

[MilesColtrane]

32. Amazing!

They've invented the septic tank.

[sarcasmo]

38. Don't let one of the big three get a hold of it, they will crush it like the EV1

[Forkboy]

42. Marvin Martian is going to be angry that they stole his idea.

Very angry indeed.

[Touchdown]

45. How do they compensate for the positronic matrix?

:evilgrin:

BTW: Flux Capacitor was the device that allowed for time travel. Mr. Fusion and the plutonium cannister was to power the Flux Capacitor. The flux capacitor wouldn't work unless it was powered by 1.21 jigawatts of electricity, so enter Mr. Fusion. I watched that movie way too many times.:freak:

[DearAbby]

50. 1.21 jigawatts?!

1.21 jigawatts!! 1.21 jigawatts?!!

1.21 jigawatts!!

Great Scott!

Aye captain, canna make her do anymore, she'll blow!!

Not that Scott.....

[Touchdown]

55. And at precisely 10:23pm, the lightening will strike

...the clock tower, sending the bolt through the rod and 1.21 jigawatts of electricity Directly into the flux capacitor!

[mainegreen]

46. Well it's something. Maybe it could power some busses.

Wont help our dependence on cars and trucking.

[tachyon]

49. I think there are only two esses in buses

:D

[mainegreen]

52. Spell check hates me

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