Can we please leave the young woman alone?

[Xithras]

I've avoided the discussions on her until now, but I have to post this because the shame being heaped upon Spitzers escort doesn't seem to be abating.

I dated an escort in college for two years. First, let's get something straight. Escorts are NOT hookers, they are NOT "ladies of the night", they are NOT call girls, they typically are NOT poor, downtrodden young women trying to earn a living with their vagina's. They do NOT need your pity.

My ex was working on her masters in physics at Berkeley while I was studying CS. She was, and still is, one of the most intelligent women I've ever had the pleasure to meet in my life, and happened to be stunningly beautiful on top of that. While we had some great sex, our relationship was never exclusive, and was never really all that serious. We both partied and went to clubs, sometimes together, sometimes with other people. When she went out with other people, she'd end up back in our apartment 80% of the time, but the other 20% she'd go home with them, presumably to have sex. This is pretty normal college behavior. We weren't married, we weren't exclusive, and we weren't serious. We were just very good friends who liked to go out together, and yes, have great sex now and then. That's what young people do. They have fun. They act in spoiled, self interested ways. And they have sex. A lot of sex. Sometimes they do things that are stupid. Sometimes they wreck their parents cars. Sometimes they make decisions which cause mature people to roll their eyes in disbelief. They're young. It's allowed.

So where did the escort thing fit in? Basically, it was no different than any other date with some random student, the only difference being that her clients tended to be a little older (usually late 20's to early 40's monied tech guys from the south bay). She'd go on 2 to 3 "dates" a month, and would do the exact same things she'd do on any other date. She'd go to clubs, they'd party, often she'd hang on their arm for some social event, and sometimes (but not always) they'd have sex. For that, in 1995, her going rate was $250 an hour, or $1,500 a night. To her it simply wasn't a big deal. As she told me once, if she saw these guys in a bar, dragged their wealthy asses back to her apartment, and screwed their brains out for free, nobody would even care. So why the false indignation about her lightening their wallets? She had a client hire her for two weeks once. He was an older single guy in his 50's who was wealthy and lonely, so he flew her to France, took her aboard his yacht, and spent many days just touring the Med sunbathing and sightseeing. They had sex a few times, but it was mostly just sightseeing and having fun. She had a good time, and he got the company he craved. She also took a $20,000 paycheck for the "job". How many young single women would REALLY turn down the opportunity to cruise the Med on a private yacht with an attractive, friendly, wealthy man, AND get paid $20,000 for it? With other clients, she did everything from eco-cruising up the Orinoco and scuba diving in Belize, to spending long weekends lounging around Hawaii, Fiji, and Costa Rica.

The job paid her way through college. I won't discuss where she works today to protect her privacy, but she's a well respected researcher today with a PhD in Physics working for an organization that any science geek would recognize. Though age and motherhood have done away with her youthful figure, she'd still one of the most intelligent and beautiful women I've had the pleasure of knowing.

Escorts aren't to be pitied, they shouldn't be looked down upon, and it's stupid to assume they're some kind of victim. Escorts, unlike full time sex workers like hookers and call girls, are typically normal young women who have simply figured out that they can make good (sometimes EXTREMELY good) money by occasionally charging some wealthy guys for something that they usually do for free. Escorts are rarely full time, rarely stay in the business more than a couple of years (often not even that long), and rarely see more than a few clients a month.

If I could date an escort for TWO YEARS and not have a problem with it, surely some of you can tune down the public scorn a bit and at least practice the most classic of liberal positions...tolerance.

[SoCalDem]

1. taxes??

:spank:

[Xithras]

2. She paid them.

Streetwalkers and other low-wage sex workers don't pay taxes because they barely make enough to survive, but my ex made over $90,000 the first year we were dating. You can't hide that kind of money from the IRS.

On edit: By the way, in case anyone is wondering, her listed profession was "Personal Assistant". I always found that bit pretty funny :)

[Frosty1]

7. ...and a jackass is a jackass

:kick:
This was meant as a reply to #4

[BigDaddy44]

3. Keep telling yourself that

Oh... since she's an ESCORT then she's really not a hooker / call girl / prostitute / whore. An escort is just a fancy name for a hooker. Gives it the cover of legitimacy in case the cops come knocking. "oh no officer, I was just paying her $1,500 to keep me company."

Sorry, a whore's a whore.

[LanternWaste]

4. And a person's a person.

"Sorry, a whore's a whore."

And a person's a person. We can be both truthful and respectful of person-- at the same time. It's not as difficult as you may think...

[BigDaddy44]

5. I didn't say she wasn't a person

But sorry, i'm not going to have a great deal of respect for someone who polished some old geezers knob just because he could afford to pay her to do it. What makes her different than the streetwalker charging $10 for it?

[LanternWaste]

10. I keep thinking of the tale of the Jewish prophet

"What makes her different than the streetwalker charging $10 for it?"

But we can have respect for the person independent of what they may or may not do as a profession. In the same vein, we can appreciate and respect the work of an artist regardless of what we may think of them as a person.

I keep thinking of the tale of the Jewish prophet who washed the feet of a prostitute-- all without calling her a "whore", or telling her he didn't respect her because she "polished some old geezers knob"

A profession does not (yet) define who we are.

Edited for clarity

[BigDaddy44]

12. "A profession does not (yet) define who you are"

Thanks. I'll remember that next time I see a guy peddling drugs on a streetcorner, or read about a hit man. I guess they're just misunderstood and trying to find themselves.

[LanternWaste]

15. Or a child working in a sweat shop?

Or a nine year child working in a sweat shop? Or a victim of the slave trade?

Those sweeping generalizations, while easy to remember and even easier to fit on a bumper sticker, come back to bite one on the tail more often than not...

[truebrit71]

16. Agreed. You can put as much lipstick on it as you like, but shagging for money is called...

..."Prostitution"...

Your ex may have been a helluva gal but if guys paid her for bumping uglies she was hooking, no two ways about it...

[malaise]

18. And while I don't care who wants to be a prostitute

it won't change the name of the profession. A rose by any other name...

[Xithras]

22. See my #21

Though I don't much care about the opinions of people who like to use sexist, loaded terms like whore.

I dislike the practices of streetwalkers, but I don't slam them for it or think less of them as human beings. They're doing what they must to survive.

If you don't like it, just shut your trap about it. You don't have to agree with anyone elses lifestyle, but as a liberal you ARE expected to practice tolerance and bite your tongue. Calling people "whores" isn't very tolerant. Quite the opposite.

[Mojorabbit]

33. Isn't the definition

of whore a person who sells sex?

[Xithras]

36. Whore is well understood to be a slur.

It ranks right up there with "slut". It's a slur against women who don't fit the christianized monagamous lifestyle encouraged by the Puritanist beliefs that still pervade American society.

I don't know about you, but I like sex, and I refuse to insult someone over their sexual choices. Even if those choices involve something I disagree with.

Whore is a term for a woman who sells sex, but it's a term intended to insult and degrade. When the intention isn't to act superior, the term is prostitute. In civilized company, the term is always prostitute.

I'll concede that my ex met the definition of prositute, which generally covers ANYONE (male or female) who sells sex for profit. But whore? Never.

[Mojorabbit]

37. From webster

Main Entry: 1whore
Pronunciation: \ˈhȯr, ˈhu̇r\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English hore, from Old English hōre; akin to Old Norse hōra whore, hōrr adulterer, Latin carus dear — more at charity
Date: before 12th century
1: a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : prostitute; also : a promiscuous or immoral woman
2: a male who engages in sexual acts for money
3: a venal or unscrupulous person

Immoral/degrading would depend on one's view, ie religious(which I am not). But a whore is someone who sells sex for money. You can dress it up but there it is. I have a thing about taking back words that others have defined in their own way or for their own purposes. If I sold myself for money, I'd gladly call myself a whore and would be proud of it. But that is just me.

[varkam]

73. From the DU Rules:

While specific words are not automatically forbidden, members should avoid using racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise bigoted terminology. This includes gender-specific terms such as "cunt," "whore," "slut," "skank," or "pussy," and terms with homophobic derivation, such as "cocksucker," which are often inflammatory and inappropriate. A common exception that is permitted is the use of words like "whore" or "prostitute" in cases where public figures or the media do favors. (For example: "Fox News is whoring for the GOP again" or "Tom DeLay is a prostitute for corporate interests.")

IOW, the rules seem view the term "whore" largely as a slur, esp. when it is directed towards women or an individual woman.

[Mojorabbit]

82. Thanks for pointing that rule out.

I find that very interesting. As I said in my prior post, I am all about taking words back. It is a legitimate definition per the dictionary as per the job description. I do not however want to break the rules here.

[varkam]

83. Far be it from me to say, but I think you're relying on semantics to make your point.

If you went out in the street and took a poll, I think you'd find that all respondents would say that the term "whore" is derogatory, even if it has a coherent meaning - just as many other derogatory terms have coherent meanings as well but, in addition to that meaning, carry an emotional judgement (i.e. freeloading terms).

[uppityperson]

90. Thank you for posting that.

Thank you for asking for decency and tolerance and all that also.

[Darth_Kitten]

56. We all like sex, but a person shouldn't be sold IMO

When you prostitute yourself, well, you're a prostitute.

[FloridaJudy]

58. And a human being's a human being

Possibly the most intelligent woman I ever met had been a prostitute since the age of six (not a typo). She grew up under the most horrendous circumstances imaginable. And yet she was also one of the kindest human beings I've ever had the privilege of meeting.

My own grandmother sold herself to feed her family in the midst of a famine/revolution.

Who knows what any of us would have done when faced with their situations. I'd much rather be in the company of people who'd exchanged sex for money at some point in their lives than of those who profit from the misery of others. Or of those who can't say "There, but for the grace", when faced with others' choices.

[seabeyond]

66. i think

this is the reason why so many, women anyway, have issue with prostitution. not cause it was a lifestyle they chose or wanted but.... because they had really fucked up childhoods or they had to feed children, yada yada.

there is empathy there.

and then you have someone that has it all, with multiple choices she could make and choses to "sell" herself too, yet she is above the title of a whore, prostitute and just is merely selling herself gently, differently, that set so many off.


what i am finding funny and odd is the very men that professed that prostitution is a "respectable" job like any others were the first to jump on here and point the finger yelling WHORE.......

i dunno.... seeing a bit of hpocrisy all the way around

[Yavin4]

6. Some Posters Here Just Won't Accept The Fact

That some women do this work because they actually enjoy it. Spitzer's gal had a $5000K a month apartment in NYC. Meanwhile, I live in a 7 story walkup with two roommates.

[uppityperson]

91. Some posters here won't accept the fact that is it NOT JUST about sex.

High paid escort services, unlike those found in the yellow pages or on bathroom walls, are not just about the sex. I think some posters think about that $10 back alley orgasm, then try multiplying it to $5000 and are rather, um, excited(?) about the sum. It isn't just about sex. As in real life, most of us don't spend much time actually boinking each other. It rather reminds me in ways of the anti-gay sentiment (omg, can you IMAGINE what they DO!?!?!), get tired of dealing with "it's not just about sex" stuff there also. Not saying the current prostitute/escort sentiment is equal in any way to homophobia omg-ness, but just thinking about how some people/posters get hung up on the sex part of everything.

[DainBramaged]

8. Sure, and I'd like to count ceiling tiles for pay too

One with the Universe, one with the Universe.


Being a boink-E to the rich and famous has only one name, whore. It hasn't changed for eons.

[marions ghost]

17. I vote for boink-E

sounds better, more hip, updated. ;-)

[DainBramaged]

19. Leave Britney alone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

[marions ghost]

25. Puh-leeze--we are having a serious discussion here...

:rofl::spray:

[Xithras]

23. See #21

n/t

[Ron Green]

9. How can she sell her CD's if she's left alone?

Not to mention the Playboy spread.

[pitohui]

41. really, the OP must take us for fools -- or the hooker he "dated" took him for a fool

the whore du jour is going to make a LOT of money off of the publicity and i seriously doubt that she wants to be left alone, believe it or not, MOST call girls are not paying for Ph.D.s in physics and you'd have to be damn naive to think otherwise

as we say on the internets, "pictures or it didn't happen"

i think we can pretty safely call bullshit on the ph.d. physics story

[Xithras]

55. Call bullshit if you want.

Doesn't really matter to me. This was about acting more like democrats and tolerant liberals, and less like puritanical freepers. My ex has been my ex for over a decade, so your opinion of her personally isn't really all that important to me. If you dislike her for what she did, you really should look at your own moral compass and figure out why you're so intolerant.

While I won't give you her name, I will encourage you to do a bit of searching around the 'Net. In 1995 or 1996, Wired Magazine did a story on one of the other girls working for the same service. I think she went to Stanford, but the situation was largely the same. Pretty young girl, attending a major institution, and making lots of money from single but wealthy dotcommers.

Stereotypes aside, this sort of thing is fairly common in universities. Attractive and intelligent young women regularly make lots of money by simply keeping some rich guy company. There's nothing wrong with it, as far as I'm concerned, so long as all adults are consenting.

While looking for that Wired article, by the way, I found these just to prove the point that it does happen:
Stanford Law student who prostituted herself to pay off $300,000 in school loans: http://www.lawschool.com/callgirl3.htm
Here's a study claiming that up to 8% of college girls do it at some point: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/student/article3396280.ece
When I did a Google search for prostitutes to see if I could turn up an old copy of the story, I found literally hundreds of stories and news articles on the subject. There's even a book about a huge student prostitution ring at Brown University called The Student Body.

It's not BS, and it's been around forever. The fact that I dated one is an interesting part of my past, but isn't really something I think about much. She was just a pretty ex with a unique "job". And, for the record, we had separate bedrooms and still split the rent three ways every month (we had another roommate as well). She wasn't mooching off me for housing. Hell, she made FAR more money than I did.

[Mountainman]

11. What is the definition of someone who exchanges money for sex?

You tell me. $200 is a hooker. $5,000 is an escort I guess.

[rocktivity]

13. I've never drawn a distinction between low- and high-priced prostitution

After all, while clientele and compensation may differ, the actual job duties are the same.

:headbang:
rocknation

[JuniperLea]

20. Well said!

A hooker by any other name turns the same tricks!

[Xithras]

24. See #21

[marions ghost]

14. It's v snobby

to say your friend is better than or different from the average sex worker. She just knows how to make more money at it in a shorter time by sticking to a wealthier clientele. But it's still the same occupation. She's just the Porsche instead of the Hyundai.

Having sex with strangers for money...anyway you look at it--that's a hard way to make a living. Not something I'd want my daughter to do. Sure it should be legalized, as people are going to do it anyway, but I wouldn't want to advocate it as a career path for young women.

Of course there are many ways people prostitute themselves to get ahead, so in that sense I wouldn't single it out as any worse morally. That's the liberal part in my thinking anyway. :)

[Xithras]

21. Here, folks, is the difference between an escort and a hooker or "whore"

Rather than reply to each of you individually and repeat myself, I'll post this here once.

An escorts primary job is NOT sex, it's COMPANIONSHIP. My ex had MANY clients with whom she NEVER had sex. There were lots of people who just wanted a pretty woman to hang on their arm for an event every evening. Others simply wanted companionship or someone to talk to. Sex was never off the table if the men wanted it, but they didn't call her for that.

If you are just looking for a little humpty dumpty, you pick up a hooker or a call a call girl to come "service" you. You call an escort when you need companionship, which CAN be sexual.

She spent most of her time in the Med just lounging around in a swimsuit, or shopping with the guys cash. She went shopping with his money, spent lots of time just talking to him (and learning to pilot a yacht), and occasionally they had sex. In return for $20,000 she became his girlfriend for two weeks in every sense of the term.

On the flipside, she had men who repeatedly called her only because they were lonely and wanted someone to talk to. Being in the SF Bay Area, there are a large number of single men with technical jobs who simply enjoyed the opportunity to have a personal talk with an intelligent woman who actually understood something about their own lives and careers. Again, she filled the role of a girlfriend. Some of those encounters lead to sex, most didn't. She really enjoyed the fact that she brought some happiness into the lives of these lonely guys. She actually wouldn't keep clients who simply wanted her to show up for sex...that's call girl territory, and she wasn't a call girl.

That's why escorts are called escorts. They accompany people. They aren't just about sex, but are about companionship.

[Jersey Devil]

26. Spitzer's gal pal was no "escort"

He rented a hotel room, she went there, he paid her, they had sex, he left. What's that if not prostitution?

BTW, she probably really loves the attention. By next week she'll probably be able to double her fee.

[Xithras]

28. If that's the case, she's a call girl. There's a difference.

[JuniperLea]

42. Go rent "Butterfield 8"

Old flick, but you'll learn a lot.

Call Girl = Hooker = Escort... all the same business. Sorry you are having a hard time with this, but honestly... they are all the same.

[rocktivity]

27. Paid sex is the ultimate form of paid companionship.

:headbang:
rocknation

[marions ghost]

29. you seem sincere

but I'm not sure you are going to elevate the job of escort as long as you want to argue that the sex part is secondary and nothing like what hookers do. Companionship for any of these guys would be the price of a few dates--if it were not for the sexual expectation and the requirement that these women be extra hot-looking, as you repeatedly mentioned was true of your friend. This is like indulgence of adolescent fantasies--make a wish club for wealthy adult alpha males who're having a hard time keeping up with the pack. There are worse things in the world, but let's not elevate it as something that's real classy. Everybody who sees the peacock strut his "arm candy" knows what the deal is. Take the money and run. Soak the sucker.

If the issue is that the clients don't want emotional attachments, there are cheaper ways for these "lonely guys" to get therapy. With high priced "escorts" They are paying for more than companionship. This activity fulfills other needs, psychological as well as sexual, which is really the point you're making. If even half of them are like Spitzer, it's a risky form of therapy. I'd rather see support groups.

(Aww I'm no fun, I know. Sorry to sound like Dear Prudence).

[girl gone mad]

67. Alpha males don't pay for sex.

I think paying for sex automatically puts you in the Beta category.

[seabeyond]

68. that is a damn good point and right on. you are right. man....

lol lol hm.

[uppityperson]

93. Do Alpha males take someone to a movie, out to dinner, then have sex?

In which case they paid for it. Do Alpha males pay rent/mortgage, and give the little woman a place to live? They paid for it. Or do Alpha males just grab and take and use their power to demand sex from whomever they want?

[aikoaiko]

34. youre only talking about a matter of degree.

There's often companionship involved in repeat half hour hookups.

You may think your girlfriend was something different, but she wasn't.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. I've walked into many banks that I haven't robbed.

The first time I rob one, I'm a bank robber.

Just sayin.

[JuniperLea]

40. Seems this relationship has left its ghosts with you...

Honey, "escorts" has been another word for "hooker" for a very long time, longer than you or I have been alive. Some men get a hooker off the street who would call herself nothing but hooker, and have her sit and listen to him for a couple of hours. She's still a hooker. Escorts, whether they put out or not, are hookers with a fancy name who only have sex with customers (Johns) sometimes.

Still a hooker. Sorry.

[pitohui]

45. you were played for a fool

you put up with a g/f who was screwing other people for money and that's very sad but you have at the end of the day only yourself to blame if you believed that for $20K she spent most of her time modeling bathing suits on a yacht

[dysfunctional press]

50. once they have sex for money, they are a whore.

no if's ands or buts.

[Runcible Spoon]

60. oh get the fuck off your high (w)hor(s)e!

you debase other women who trade what has been bought and sold since the dawn of humankind by elevating your "escort" friend as somehow morally/ethically/what have you superior because she happens to clack around her lab with a PhD and Manolo Blahniks. If she took a dick for money even once, she is to be judged by the same fucking standards as the most down-trodden toothless streetwalker. To me, these standards happen to be understanding and non-judgment of how these women earn a living, whether or not they earn advanced degrees or get recording contracts.

:banghead:

[Xithras]

64. What high horse? Show me where I said that.

I never made judgment about hookers, but simply pointed out the difference between high paid escorts and other sex workers. I have NO problem with sex for money so long as it's consensual. NOWHERE in my post did I demean other sex workers, and implicating that there is a DIFFERENCE does NOT somehow make one less respectful than the other.

Hookers and call girls are about sex, first, foremost, and primarily. Escorts are about companionship, which can include sex. Pointing out that difference isn't an insult to anybody.

In fact, pointing out that NORMAL, MIDDLE CLASS, INTELLIGENT women occasionally engage in sex work does the OPPOSITE, by highlighting the fact that it's not just poor, downtrodden, oppressed women who participate in the field. Your sister, your daughter, hell, your MOTHER could have done it, and you'd never know unless they told you. The stereotype of prostitutes wearing miniskirts and 6 inch acrylic heels is false, marginalizes sex workers, and should be broken.

[Runcible Spoon]

86. oh c'mon, don't be disingenuous

it insults my intelligence and makes me question yours.

[pnwmom]

69. If a woman only "escorted" then she'd only be an escort. But any "escort"

who engages in sex with strangers for money is also a prostitute.

[NuttyFluffers]

78. just like geisha or hetairae...

i get what you're saying, but i don't think many people on DU will. it's surprisingly feudal and closed-minded here, and been getting worse. thanks for trying though.

but then i don't find anything intrinsically evil about prostitution (or as i love to hear it, "whoredom", like a fiefdom of sexual transactions) -- only when it is rendered into a deregulated white market. it's the same feelings i have on "smut" (god i love that word), y'know pornography. or even good ol' gambling! prostitution, as pornography and gambling, could be a nightmare of abuses and coercion and cruelty, but so can anything as long as it is UNREGULATED (capitalized, for my pleasure). once you get strict regulation into it many of the scariest abuses go away.

and if anyone doesn't understand that go visit Nevada. and then come back and tell me it's now worse than what it was during the illicit Gold Rush and Bonanza days of yesteryear. Las Vegas today looks like $%^&* Disneyland compared to the nightmares of unregulated commerce during the height of Nevada mining.

the lesson here? DEREGULATION = BAD, NO REGULATION = BAD, REGULATION = GOOD

yay! life is so simple once you learn certain basics...

[uppityperson]

94. Yup. I agree with what you write, just wanted to let you know. eom

[mitchum]

81. "My ex had MANY clients with whom she NEVER had sex."...

hey, if that's what she told you, who am I to disabuse you of that notion?
However, I would like to talk to you about some exciting and surefire investment opportunities...

[uppityperson]

92. Exactly, though yellowpages/bathroom walls "escorts" are a different breed.

As I wrote in #91:
Some posters here won't accept the fact that is it NOT JUST about sex.

High paid escort services, unlike those found in the yellow pages or on bathroom walls, are not just about the sex. I think some posters think about that $10 back alley orgasm, then try multiplying it to $5000 and are rather, um, excited(?) about the sum. It isn't just about sex. As in real life, most of us don't spend much time actually boinking each other. It rather reminds me in ways of the anti-gay sentiment (omg, can you IMAGINE what they DO!?!?!), get tired of dealing with "it's not just about sex" stuff there also. Not saying the current prostitute/escort sentiment is equal in any way to homophobia omg-ness, but just thinking about how some people/posters get hung up on the sex part of everything.

[BluWtrLynn]

30. We should leave her alone.

What the Gov did was immoral and despicable. He got what he deserved for betraying the public trust and humiliating his family. That said, what the lady was engaged in should not be illegal.

In my mind there are two justifications for making prostitution against the law:

1. Marriage and women in general need to be protected from the uncontrollable lust of males. This is what I call the burka argument. It belongs in Iran not here in a country where men and women are equal.

2. Making prostitution illegal protects people (not just women, not just heteros) from exploitation. This one would have more merit if we did not have more than a century where it has failed the "does-this-actually-work-that way" test. Making prostitution illegal has pushed it into the hands of organized crime. Prostitutes are far more likely to be exploited because of the illegal nature or their activities. In my mind only minors need this kind of protection and the law enforcement resources in this area need to focus on under-age prostitution (which is rampant in this country).

From a public health perspective we probably should license prostitutes. There should be a test about protection and STDs. I've advocated the same test for marriage licensing too.

[marions ghost]

31. good points, I pretty much agree

and so how do you stand on the debate here that "escorts" don't fall into the same category as prostitutes? Would it be regulated in the same way?

[BluWtrLynn]

65. She's was a prostitute.

Give it the Doctor/Lawyer test. If she is providing professional services she is precluded by definition from having sex with her clients (not even sometimes) There may be real professional escorts out there, but she was not one.

[eilen]

95. When you are licensed by a regulatory body

such as the state, those records are available publicly. For example, I am a nurse. Anyone can look up my name on the state registry and find my license number. How many women registered as prostitutes would want that information public? Is writing "sex worker" on your child's school registration wise? Hell, most women don't disclose their abortion history at a gynocologist's office and that is legal.

I think for those reasons, licensing would not be effective and you would still have the same problems with prostitution as you have now.

[DainBramaged]

32. A blow up doll is a "paid escort" too.

Sorry, you can't justify an escort money and try to differentiate between not having sex for money tonight and sex for money tomorrow. A whore/call girl/prostitute is the same thing. Unless she/it is inanimate

[JuniperLea]

43. One of my freaky favorites of all time! Roxy Music...

In every dream home a heartache
And every step I take
Takes me further from heaven
Is there a heaven?
I`d like to think so
Standards of living
They´re rising daily
But home oh sweet home
It´s only a saying
From bell push to faucet
In smart town apartment
The cottage is pretty
The main house a palace
Penthouse perfection
But what goes on
What to do there
Better pray there

Open plan living
Bungalow ranch style
All of its comforts
Seem so essential
I bought you mail order
My plain wrapper baby
Your skin is like vinyl
The perfect companion
You float my new pool
De luxe and delightful
Inflatable doll
My role is to serve you
Disposable darling
Can´t throw you away now
Immortal and life size
My breath is inside you
I´ll dress you up daily
And keep you till death sighs
Inflatable doll
Lover ungrateful
I blew up your body
But you blew my mind

Oh those heartaches
Dreamhome heartaches

[DainBramaged]

46. Great band, saw open them live in 1972 for Jethro Tull at the garden

The audience couldn't figure them out. Brian Ferry had a long black nightgown on. They did Virginia Plain and the audience started to boo.

:rofl:

[JuniperLea]

48. That's hilarious!

They were rather ahead of their time. I've seen them a few times. Seeing them with Tull in 72 must have rocked!

[DainBramaged]

51. At the time I was running a "tape and Record store" in Midland Park NJ

And was a fan of Roxy Music. Seeing Ian Anderson and Tull in 1972 stoned on my ass was unbelievable. We had FIFTH row seats slightly left of center stage Section 216 row E at the MSG (the ticket stub is framed on my wall, $5.50 admission).


And when I told my customers Kiss would be huge, they didn't believe me.

[JuniperLea]

38. Women who think so little of themselves...

Get what they ask for.

To think she wasn't a prostitute is naieve. We already know for a fact there was sex involved.

[TorchTheWitch]

39. Speaking as a sex worker, you're wrong on this

Like it or not your friend was a prostitute. Escorts cross the line into prostitution when they offer and engage in sex with their clients as part of their services. Just because she didn't charge per menu item doesn't make her any less of a prostitute. The two different methods of billing have been around forever, but they're just two different methods of billing for the same job. The average hooker charges per menu item, and when that sexual menu item is concluded, so is the transaction. A call girl, escort or whatever you want to call them charges for their time and will perform whatever sexual menu items they're willing to service during that time if the client is so inclined (and usually they are). Make no mistake about it, she was able to get these high priced dates BECAUSE she offered sex and did perform sex as part of her paid services. Any time a person offers sex as part or all of their paid services they are offering prostitution (i.e., soliciting prostitution, holding themselves out as a prostitute), and any time a person engages in sex as part or all of their paid services they are engaging in prostitution.

Why do you think your friend disguised her true occupation on her tax returns? She knew what she was doing was illegal prostitution and that she could be arrested for it. You aren't doing you're friend or any other sex workers that engage in prostitution any favors by attempting to paint it up and disguise it as something other than what it is.

You're whole argument backfires on you when you argue from the position that scorn should not be heaped upon Spitzer's prostitute or your friend by pretending what they were doing wasn't "really" prostitution as that just allows the assumption that if it "really" was prostitution than the scorn is justifiable. It was prosititution, and though it was, it was consensual sex between two adults (which should be no one else's business), and for THAT reason undeserving of scorn.

[DainBramaged]

44. "it was consensual sex between two adults "

Absolutely, but it was for money, and that is the difference.

Wingnuts don't look at it that way, it's "their business" to monitor your sex life, not their own.

He should have gone to Las Vegas.

[TorchTheWitch]

47. It's not just the wingnuts

Plenty of people right here at DU think they have the moral right to monitor other peoples' sex lives and pin labels on them according to what they themselves think is improper.

Prostitution is illegal in Vegas, btw.

[DainBramaged]

49. Nevada, sorry

He could have flown to Vegas and gone outside the massive city limits. On a fact finding mission. Yeah.


Me thinks you are quite the capable person. Much smarter than the "boink-E" as I call her who is going to reap fame and fortune from this unfortunate incident at the expense of a political career, a marriage, and the jobs of dozens of people who worked on Spitzer's staff.

[TorchTheWitch]

53. ha! a "fact finding mission"

Ya know, if he was a Repuke that's just what he could have said and how it would have been reported.

Despite the amount of money that woman was making, no she wasn't smart. The agency she worked for would have kept the larger portion of what was billed the client, and it's just stupid to work for an agency that advertises itself... they all get caught eventually. In the long run she's lost a heck of a lot more than what she may gain in the short term. She'll never be able to work as a high priced prostitute again because the most important element (secrecy) is now out the window. All she can get out of this now is whatever "flash in the pan" money she can squeeze out of it in the short term which doesn't compare to what she could have made if she could continue along as she was for even a year. Going by the lifestyle she was living it also doesn't appear that she was banking most of her income, which is also stupid... the window of opportunity is small, and the money doesn't flow in forever.

[DainBramaged]

54. NICE graphics too!

A pleasure talking to you...

01-20-09

[lildreamer316]

85. OT: Hey, sister.

Good to see you.
Sure is fun these days at DU, eh? I've either been putting out fires, or starting them, all over since this scandal hit the fan.

[Xithras]

57. Never said she wasn't a prostitute. Said she wasn't a hooker, a "whore", or a streetwalker.

I see nothing wrong with prostitution, and nothing at all wrong with being an escort. I don't even really have a problem with call girls.

The definitions have always been explained to me thusly:

Hooker/Streetwalker: Woman who hangs out in parking lots, streetside, etc. looking for johns wanting sex. Usually offers an a la carte menu of sexual options.
Call Girl: Higher end prostitute who must be called to arrange a meeting. Sometimes the johns visit the callgirl after an appointment is made (In Call) and sometimes the callgirl comes to the john (Out Call). Callgirls typically charge by the hour, and visits are sexual in nature.
Escort: Very expensive woman usually hired for a combination of BOTH social and sexual purposes. Escorts are usually not hired strictly for sex, but to accompany men on paid dates which sometimes end in sex.
Whore - A term for prostitutes, usually meant as a slur.
Prostitute - Anyone who sells themselves for sex.

It was my understanding that this girl was an Escort, which is very different than a Hooker and who is undeserving of the "whore" label. My intention wasn't to make it seem like some sex workers are deserving of scorn while others aren't, but to rattle some stereotypes regarding what high end sex workers really do.

[NashVegas]

72. Whore

Sweetie, the only difference between whores and sluts is whores know what they want and what they have to offer, and don't leave as much emotional wreckage in their wake.

Some people have a problem with that; I'm not one of them.

[Chovexani]

52. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

The only thing I would disagree with is I don't think anyone who engages in sex work or escorting should be treated with the level of scorn and abuse this woman's getting.

I doubt it will stop DU's production of the Scarlet Letter, though. :(

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

59. I believe you are rationalizing what your friend did, because of your relationship with her.

Once she crossed the line and accepted money for sex, she became a prostitute. Albeit a high priced one, but a prostitute none the less.

I do not judge her at all as I believe that prostitution should be legalized.

[Juche]

61. I'm jealous

Being able to pull a beautiful escort who is working on a postgraduate degree at Berkeley and makes nearly 6 figures. My dating skills suck in comparison.

[Xithras]

63. I got lucky, she was my roomate first.

I did a lot of freelance software development in high school (unheard of in the pre-dotcom days) and had quite a bit of money at the time. Rather than stay in ratty on campus dorms, I put out an ad for fellow students who wanted to rent a NICE apartment. She, I, and another guy ended up renting the top floor of a house in the Berkeley Hills with a great view of the campus and the Bay (on clear days). Shortly after that, we started dating...the fun and friendly kind of dating, not the "looking for a spouse" kind.

I like to tell myself that I could have picked her up even if we hadn't been living together, but that would have been a bit of a delusion...even if I was a good looking kid with a strong jawline who had mountain climbed since childhood, drove a sports car, and had a bit of money in the bank. I was still a CS geek, and most girls didn't dig on the CS geeks at the time :)

[scarletwoman]

62. Great post! Actually, your friend sounds very much like a Geisha.

Or an 18th century European courtesan.

I utterly deplore the weird twistedness of the American psyche about sex, which is, unfortunately, very much in evidence on this thread.

sw

[SidDithers]

76. Not just this thread...

I'm saddened by the number of posts in dozens of thread, gleefully calling this Spitzer's woman a whore.

Spitzer deserves what he's getting because he cheated on his wife. Not because he went to a prostitute.

Sid

[bobthedrummer]

70. Could be a classic all right, a classic honeytrap-by those of us "amateur intelligence analysts"

"Spitzer taken down by Mossad?" by Jerry Mazza (3-14-2008 OnlineJournal)
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_3065.shtml

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

88. Bob, I have very mixed feelings about Spitzer. One of them is

that I am furious at the vengeance at which they are going after him, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Mossad or even the sociopath administration. Never has a "John" ever been so persecuted.

On the other hand, Spitzer has been behind fascist policies. His love of wiretapping came back and bit him firmly in his Karmic ass. He has also agreed to the fascist Real ID for my state, and that IMHO, unforgivable.

[bobthedrummer]

98. I think many of us have mixed feelings, I do too. It's part of the paradox black ops world that

supports the shadow government. It is pragmatic. When I posted Jerry Mazza'a article last night it was offered to those of us that continually sift and search for facts to consider with other facts to determine the truth in a world currently dominated by the shadow government's lies.

That is my style, I often post links from a lot of sources and don't comment. I just put them out for our community (with all its factions) to consider, hoping that those seeking answers and truth will respond.

I know that we live in a time of "universal fascism"-an evil ideological construct that is part of the fanaticism of the loyal Bushies and their Decider.

A Decider who was installed via a "bloodless" coup, a Decider fronting for a network that has their privatized world empire agenda well underway, a Decider that has publicly stated that you and I, (as defined by our Constitution as we the people) mean nothing more than "a Goddamn piece of paper".

There are some names and facts in that article that connect solidly with the linked article below, OmmmSweetOmmm, check it out when you have the time.

"Follow the Money? God forbid. Why was the cashing out of billions of dollars just before the 9/11 attacks never investigated?" by Jim Hogue (1-29-2008 Baltimore Chronicle)
http://baltimorechronicle.com/2008/012908Hogue.shtml

[NashVegas]

71. She Isn't Going to Leave Us Alone - That's the Problem

Now that "Kristen's" cover is blown (and who's to say she didn't have a hand in that) and she's talking to the press she's going to have to find a new income stream.

She is now going to have access to star-makers than many other talented, hard-working musicians would give an eyetooth for, and some would sleep their way to - but at least they'd have the good taste not to give everyone the details.

[SidDithers]

74. K&R...

good post.

Sid

[salin]

75. While I get your point...

imo, you still gave too much info about your friend. It would be easy to start speculation as to who this might be with the info given - field, era of grad work, and according to you - very high profile within her field. Having lived in the area at that time, with good friends in that field but at the "rival" institution - had I any interest (I do not) I could easily figure out within a couple of people (if not exactly) identify her. I say this as a woman who protects my privacy, and realized how easily I could probably zero in on who this might be (or at least start some professionally harmful conversations/buzzes). Your point could have been made without all of the identifying info. I would strongly suggest that if you value this friend, that you alert on your thread (for a delete, rather than a lock, and rewrite it making a little more generic your identifying comments per her (eg "Prestigious Bay Area University" rather than Berkley (or better yet, leave the city unnamed and speak to the region so it can't be narrowed down to one or two institutions) - as there is at least one other; and "a field in the hard sciences" rather than physics.) Sure, on the one hand giving the details might seem to give more "weight" to your point - but when doing so allows readers (some not DUers) enough info to dig in and start speculating about the identity, it seems really disrespectful to her - in her current life. Unless, of course, she lists that work on her CV (as in doesn't care if anyone knows) and discusses it with her kids (as in not wanting to keep one's life in an earlier period in that period rather than mingling it with ones' current life.) Of course if you vetted this post/thread with her before you posted it (per making the point, and to give it creds giving that much identifying detail that can be tracked back to her), then I take back my objection/concern per this post.

[civildisoBDence]

77. How is the prostitute being harmed? She's about to make a mint

by spreading her legs in a pornographic magazine.

Forgive my indignation, but there's a disabled child being raked over the coals on national radio, and you're worried about a prostitute that you don't even know.

Sometimes DU really, really makes me wonder.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3011405">Here's someone worthy of your damn pity

[theboss]

79. You fuck for money...you are a whore

I'm not judging whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Everyone has to make a living.

But let's not play games.

[mitchum]

80. A whore is a whore is a whore...despite the spin job (yeah, that was intentional)...

one is willing to perform

[cali]

84. I couldn't give a shit about your relationship with the woman

you describe as an escort. I don't call people whores, but let's be clear: This is the best thing that ever happened to "Kristen" and she's reveling in it.

[mondo joe]

87. I don't much distinguish between classes of prostitute, but don't have a problem with any either.

There are certainly people - particularly the young - coerced or outright forced into prostitution, who don't want to do it. That s very troubling, and much more must be done to help them.

Of those who choose prostitution, I have no negative judgment whether they are are high priced escorts or not.

[uppityperson]

89. We don't have to leave her alone, but indeed thank you for your educating post

since it seems many people don't get the difference between an expensive escort and a $10 back alley orgasm. And there is a huge difference. And it also seems some people want excuses to show their intolerance. So thank you.

[eilen]

96. A separate point of view

from one of my favorite feminist blogs "I Blame the Patriarchy" I Blame the Patriarchy (click link for whole thing)

"I don’t know anything about “Kristen”, except that as a prostituted woman — however “high class” or “expensive” — she is a de facto sub-human. As are the millions of other, more invisible prostituted women she so inaccurately represents in the popular imagination. “Kristen” may achieve a kind of kitschy, pop-culture cachet because of the high status and celebrity of the asshole who used her as a meatsock, and she might be able to parlay her position as a footnote to history into some kind of financial reward — such things are not unheard of — but the vast majority of what so many progressives like to call “sex workers” subsist much, much more precariously. Some merely teeter on the precipice of indenture and some are genuinely enslaved, but all are subject to violence, disease, imprisonment, marginalization, shame, and all the other degradations, large and small, that accrue with membership in the planet’s most despised class.

So once again, some white guy is lionized for his extraordinarily comprehensive assimilation of the megatheocorporatocratic ideology, but the fact that he has taken an active role in what can only be construed as a human rights violation is significant to the media not because he so magnificently represents the inevitable product of a culture based on the toxic dominance/submission dichotomy, but because in choosing a lesser object to dominate, he arrogantly declined, as the Wall Street Journal’s Daniel Henninger put it, to “spend his free time with Albany’s in-house hookers.” In other words, it’s not that Spitzer went whoring — everybody goes whoring! — it’s that he bought the wrong girl. Gotcha!

If you’re thinking you’re gonna take me to school in the comments section about how “sex work” is noble and should be a legal, legitimate profession, la la la, read this first: at issue is not the objective act of boinking. Until you factor in patriarchy and its wacko concepts of property and gender, sex is just a thing, like eating a couple of Cheez-Its, or going to the movies. But in a patriarchy, all women belong to the sex class, and are defined in terms of men. Men, on the other hand, belong to the default human class, and get to define themselves (and everything else). In a heterosexual boinking situation, the power differential inherent in the relationship between fucker and fuckee absolutely precludes the possibility of any woman participating with full agency in prostitution.

The jovial nonchalance with which the subject of prostitution is bandied about — and prostitution, I say again, is a human rights violation — makes me want to puke."

[citizen snips]

97. its a free market economy. But these types of girls are not hookers.

They are called harlots.