American Imperialism until the end of time?

[Angela Shelley]

I´m finding it difficult to take part in discussions about the very important topics like the occupation of Iraq, the economy, health care, and education, because there are often "imperialistic" comments which make the discussion impossible.

It doesn´t make sense to talk about the loss of innocent lives or economic reform with someone who thinks that the USA is destined to be the ruling country on the planet until the end of time.


What´s your guess:

How many of the 115,000 DUers are supportive of American Imperialism?

How many of the 300 million Americans are supportive of American Imperialism?

[mmonk]

1. How many even know what imperialism is?

[Angela Shelley]

3. That´s a good question.

Start a thread with that question ASAP and we´ll compare the replies later.
:-)

[mmonk]

5. Let's see the responses to this thread first.

It should be interesting to see.

[Angela Shelley]

6. Was it the boring OP?

Hi mmonk, unfortunately there were only a couple of replies.

I´ll try again another day. :-)

[shenmue]

2. What empire is it we're supposed to have?

What do we own, I'm curious?

People go on and on about America as it is now, as if it's the worst thing that has ever walked the planet. People forget the British Empire and of course the more ancient empires were a lot more far-reaching and a lot worse. I'd be the first to say I don't like a lot of the things we're doing now. That said, cut off this "empire" crap. It doesn't wash.

[mmonk]

4. Your timing is impeccable.

[Angela Shelley]

7. I agree.

[coalition_unwilling]

30. A lot worse??? The Roman empire left a wonderful legacy of

art and architecture wherever it touched. The British empire left a legacy of parliamentary democracy in many of its former colonial possessions (India, Canada, Australia and the U.S. come to mind).

What does the U.S. empire leave behind except empty rhetoric about 'self determination,' Golden Arches, Britney Spears and 2-3 million dead in southeast asia ca. 1954-74 and 1+ million dead in Iraq ca. 1991-2008?

[knight_of_the_star]

40. Let's not forget two beautiful jobs the British did

Like Sudan and Iraq. Bang up job there wasn't it? That and the Romans had no problem with total brutality to take control, not unusual for them to crucify whole villages if a handful resisted.

[DangerDave921]

8. what is imperialism?

Seriously, I'm not sure how you're using that term.

Do we rule other nations? Control a lot of colonies around the world? Not sure what you mean.

[Angela Shelley]

9. Imperialism as in

influencing and controlling the political and economic condition in other countries in order to reap benefits for the USA.

[DangerDave921]

10. Still not clear

Doesn't every country try to do that? From your definition, I don't see any problem with doing that.

[Angela Shelley]

11. No, most governments make their best effort to take

care of the problems within their own borders, instead of sending agents to covertly create problems in other countries.

[pitohui]

22. interesting usage of the word "most"

you say most governments make their best effort to take care of the problems within their own borders, instead of sending agents to covertly create problems in other countries.

i can only say, facts not in evidence!

i'm fairly sure that even the smallest of countries is guilty of using covert agents

not to excuse the behavior but to pretend it's something rare and special to the usa is fairly ridiculous, we have one of the least effective "covert" intelligence gathering structures that have existed in modern history -- we virtually always seem to get it wrong

hence why britain, saudi arabia, pakistan, france, israel, and many others sent us warnings prior to 911 that there was trouble brewing! (and we still couldn't catch a clue!)

[rockymountaindem]

54. That's only because other countries don't have the resources we have

Arguments like this are the flip side of the "American exceptionalism" argument. On the one hand, nearly everybody here would reject the idea that the US has certain qualities that make us exceptionally better than other countries or a lone force for good that stands above the fray of other states.

On the other hand, a lot of people around this website seem to ascribe to the idea that the US is exceptionally greedy, sinister or power-hungry. That isn't the case. I contend that our involvement all over the globe (whether your think it's for good, ill, or somewhere in the middle), is merely a function of our preponderant level of power; our hegemonic status. I think that any other country with the same level of wealth and hard power would pursue similar activities. Plenty of countries do, just on a smaller scale commensurate with their abilities.

[tuckessee]

12. Iraq is a perfect example.

So is the 45 year embargo of Cuba. The war in Vietnam is another.

You have no problem with those things?

[DangerDave921]

18. Yes I am

Ooooh, you got me good. (sarcasm)

How is a trade embargo against another country imperialism? That's just silly. I disagree with the embargo 100% but it's not imperialism.

Vietnam was not imperialism as we were not trying to acquire another country or territory. We were in a misguided attempt to defeat communism. But it was not imperialism.

And Iraq is a huge mess. Could pass for imperialism if we try to keep their land or resources.

[mmonk]

13. Maybe this will help. It's from Webster's Pocket Dictionary.

The policy of extending an empire by acquiring new terrirtory or establishing dominance over other nations.


I'll follow the definition by pulling this part of a piece I did concerning the Bremer orders:

Any doubters need only take a look at the Bremer “orders” implemented after the invasion of Iraq. It is very clear and probably why the compliant media doesn’t discuss such things. Examples are as follows: Order 1-deBathification , Order 2- Dissolve the Iraqi military and intelligence apparatus, Order 12 and Order 54- Trade Liberalization, Order 14 -Prohibited media activity, Order17 -Contractor and military immunity from Iraqi laws, Order 37 and 49- Replace progressive tax system with flat tax system, Order 40 and 94- Iraqi banking open to foreign ownership, Order 62 -Bremer to determine who could run for office, Order 65 Iraqi Communications and Media Commission appointed by Bremer, Order 57 and 77-place American representatives in key decision making positions in the government ministries, Order 80, 81, and 83 Rewrote Iraq’s patent, trademark, and copyright laws. But the most obvious is Order 39. Provision-1, privatization, Provision 2-100 percent Foreign Ownership of Iraqi Businesses, Provision 3 National treatment of foreign investment, Provision-4 Unrestricted Repatriation of Profits for Foreign Investors, Provision 5-Forty Year Leases of Iraqi Real Estate by Foreign Entities and Provision 6 Disputes could be settled in international tribunals instead of Iraqi Courts.

[Angela Shelley]

14. Thanks mmonk for the practical definition.

So we are back to the question,

What percentage of DUers support American Imperialism?

What percentage of Americans support American Imperialism?

I am truly curious to know if the concept is just "in the minds of a few" or is it "in the minds of the masses".

Your thoughts?

[mmonk]

16. I have no idea.

I think people in the US are very propagandized. They carry the myth of American exceptionalism and inerrancy and pureness with them more than they think.

[DangerDave921]

19. Not so black and white

I do think America is exceptional. Not pure and not perfect, but exceptional? Yes.

[mmonk]

41. What makes us exceptional?

Usually, torturing captives is the mark of the end of lawful rule in democracies and a statement of moral depravity (as a for instance).

[DangerDave921]

44. here are a few

A large measure of freedom, courts of law, the free turning over of power, elected leaders, a high standard of living, science and technology, wide-open media (including internet), an abundance of goods and food, a people who are very giving of their money in times of need (think Katrina and the Tsunami). Oh, and baseball.

[LanternWaste]

52. Pretty much like Western Europe...

Pretty much like all of Western Europe, and Japan, and Australia... we can all be exceptional & unique together and in the same way. lol

[Karenina]

20. O'Sullivan on Manifest Destiny 1839

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2892756

[The2ndWheel]

15. If it wasn't our empire, it would be another empire

Then again, in our current world, there really is no here or there. The boards of corporations are white, black, asian, male, female, etc. The only reason "representation" in governments are still behind corporations in that regard is governments have borders. There is no America, or China, or India. It's all the same system. Some Americans may think we rule the world, but we don't. There is no we, or them. We're all interchangeable cogs, even the people running things...if anyone is running things.

It doesn't really matter if you agree or disagree with imperialism. Imperialism is the only way *this* world can work. America wouldn't exist without imperialism in the first place. It's sort of built in.

[Angela Shelley]

17. Sounds like you agree with American Imperialism.

In your opinion, and according to your definition, what percentage of Americans agree with American Imperialism?

[The2ndWheel]

25. I do no agree with imperialism

If it were up to me, America wouldn't exist, because it can't exist without imperialism. Although that's pretty much the case with any nation-state. They require growth, as do corporations, which requires expansion, which means empire. Any form of organization, if it wants to survive, requires that.

That's not just towards other people. That's the same with non-humans and the rest of the planet. Yes, you only exist because something else dies. That's life. However, imperialism/empire/civilization/whatever you wish to call expanding forms of organization, has taken that formally give-and-take of existence to what is now a global level. We now require the fucking around with the DNA of other species for our benefit. We have to clear out forests. We have to expand into any and every eco-system to harness the resources for further expansion. If we don't, this whole thing starts to crack. Obviously we can't destroy the planet to save ourselves from it, but that's what we do.

What percentage of Americans agree with imperialism? Probably all of us, it just depends on the scale. Is killing a single plant or animal for food imperialism? Most likely not, but that's where it starts. We've just taken that to the factory farm level, where we(as the self annointed chosen ones) now create life, not so it can live for its own sake(and give us a fight when we're looking for food), but so that we can get the most profit from it.

Who would I be to say America can't exist? That sounds like imperialism. Nobody can win. Nobody can force other people to live like they do, or like they want, or like they should. Yet, we all do it to a certain extent. We're all at least a little crazy for good reason.

[Angela Shelley]

26. If I remember correctly,

Adolf Hitler thought that Germany couldn´t exist without expansion.

Have you ever spent time in another country, living peacefully with people of another culture?

[The2ndWheel]

31. I did say that I'm not pro-empire, right?

Hitler's Germany couldn't exist without expansion. The only reason that Germany didn't expand further was because the two empires that did expand further defeated Hitler's Germany.

I am not for imperialism. I am answering your question as to why we have been an expanding force since day one, in my opinion.

Do you think we could have the world we currently live in without imperialism? How did this place get built?

If it were an "American" empire, we would've attacked Canada a long time ago. Hell, Canada would've attacked us. But we're part of the same system. The only reason we went after Iraq was because they weren't fully integrated into the global socio-economic system. We don't go to war with Germany or Japan these days because they're integrated into the system. We don't attack China because they make everything. We don't attack India because they listen to our electronic complaints about computer problems. Why does "China" continue to prop us up? Because we're the same thing. If we go down, they go down. It's a global empire. Everybody works together.

I am not for this craptastic setup we have going on. I'm just trying to answer, in my view, why it is. I could live with pretty much anyone in a peaceful manner. However, I'm not the relentlessly centralizing and consolidating force of empire/imperialism/civilization/etc. Those forms of organization require the destruction of diversity in order to exist. Only when everything else is the same can that system co-exist with everything else.

[Angela Shelley]

33. Recognize, respect, and celebrate diversity!

Recognize, respect, and celebrate diversity!

[The2ndWheel]

47. It would be good if the world were like that

It's just that the world is becoming the same wherever you go.

[LanternWaste]

53. Might I suggest Paul Kennedy's 'Rise and Fall of the Great Powers'?

Might I suggest Paul Kennedy's 'Rise and Fall of the Great Powers'?

The book aptly illustrates that the maintenance of a country's power/independence is not dependent on expansion.

[mmonk]

36. What's your thoughts on the Swedish empire?

Or Canadian?

[The2ndWheel]

48. Well the Vikings did decently for a while

And Canada never needed an empire because it was under British rule, and then after that has always had the US as a close partner.

[pitohui]

24. we have no empire to support

i'm always entertained by this bold talk of the american empire, from a country that literally cannot invade and hold even the smallest of nations, well, i guess we beat grenada, but even then? where is the empire? we don't now possess grenada

the great empires like britain and rome actually went out there and for a time managed to conquer and hold their various possessions, something the usa has never achieved

if you look at what empire "is" then it's something that for whatever reason the usa is completely incompetent at and that no one really supports, because who wants to be a loser supporting these failed adventures in vietnam, iraq, and so on -- i'm pretty sure we know from repeated polls that the MAJORITY of americans oppose these adventures

now if you say in a poll, is america the best, rah rah, sure, everybody's going to say rah rah back

it doesn't mean we're an empire any more than a lot of folks saying rah rah saints in new orleans means the saints won the superbowl

[The2ndWheel]

27. What we live in is not an "American" empire

There is no need for an "American" empire when there is no other empire. You had the Soviets for a few decades, but they died out. You had WW2, which was a war to see which empires would continue to expand. You had every other war before those wars to figure out which empire would survive. This global empire that we live in is the end result of every war ever waged.

It's a global corporate state where we are all cogs doing our jobs to keep the machine running. We're not like Britain or Rome because we have no place. There is no there to conquer. Britain and Rome(and all the rest) already conquered those places. This is a planetary empire. Not completely, but if the energy is cheap enough, we'll get there.

"where is the empire?"

Exactly.

[coalition_unwilling]

32. The British actually did very little 'conquering'. They instead co-opted

colonial satraps to administer their colonial possessions.

Americans in general do not support imperialism, but certain sectors within America are quasi-imperialists (I'm thinking of the neo-cons and the neo-liberals).

American imperialism differs from its British and Roman antecedents in that American imperialism is not grounded upon conquering and holding possessions but instead extending military power to enforce American economic and foreign policies and influence and corrupt native and indigenous populations and practices.

If America is not an empire, then what are we doing with 700+ military bases scattered around the globe? Last time I checked, the Soviet Union fell in 1991. But our 700+ military bases remain. It's not for nothing that one of bin Laden's stated grievances was the basing of our troops on Muslim holy lands (Saudi Arabia). We still have many bases in the region (Qatar and Kuwait the most obvious).

[mmonk]

42. We have 700+ military bases in foreign countries.

Where are other countries' bases on our soil?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

28. "Imperialism is the only way *this* world can work"?! Says who?!

:wow:

"America wouldn't exist without imperialism in the first place"?!

You may want to consider a name-change because those assertions are blatant myths.

Good GAWD!!! :wow:

[Angela Shelley]

29. Thanks for the "dropping jaws",

I thought that maybe I was the only one who was confused with the myth message.

[The2ndWheel]

46. How does the entity we know as America exist without imperialism?

The country was founded on slavery and genocide. It moved west with no regard for other people. It moved beyond our shores for what reason?

This current world, which is the world built from increasingly large scale organized war, can only work by imperialism. That can be militarily, culturally, or most likely economically.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

50. I realize it never occurs to the neocons this country and world CAN flourish without imperialism.

But, that's only because they are so shallow and narrow in their world view that all other possibilities are intentionally ignored.

[Uncle Joe]

21. Should the human race die off from the looming catastrophe of global warming climate change,

I suppose that's possible as I don't view that as too far in to the distant future.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

23. There are DUers supportive of U.S. Imperialism?

Damn! I didn't know that!

btw How many nations have our military forces in them? How many are threatened if they fail to cooperate with OUR corporacrats economic initiatives? Does the U.S. behave like an empire?

(Answers: the majority; all; absolutely)

[Mik T]

34. I think you can look at the Venezuela issue as sort of a bellwether

To determine if there are imperialists on DU. We attempted a failed coup and every chance we get we economically, and through use of bribery and lies, try to interfere with the right of Venezuela's democratically elected government to self determination, even though international authorities certify their elections fair over and over.

There are people here who- no matter how many FACTS you present them on this issue (endorsed by neutral authorities like the EU and human rights watch) say we should do everything we can to get rid of Venezuela's govt.

On the flip side you could look at dictators Musharef of Pakistan and Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia who are both merciless a-holes who consort with terrorists and wonder- why have we been keeping them in power for so long? Could it be that the US is actually running those countries? Cause once the US withdraws its support from either one they will fall like matchsticks- it's already happening in Pakistan.

I do believe the US is an empire. I think it uses the language and symbols of an empire. Ever seen Bush speak? Remember that big ole eagle clutching the world behind him?

How 'bout "God Bless America" I hate that saying- Implicit in it is that God's blessing stops at our borders-as if we are the only country on earth that deserves it.

I dunno though- about the empire philosophy? WHat is it when the corporations are the empires? has that ever happenned in the history of the earth? I mean- the GDP of exxon is larger then the GDP of most countries. It's probably just as powerful if not more so...I think hedgemony might be the world we are looking for here.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

35. Yes BUT,...most Americans aren't informed about the facts on the corporacrats.

All they get via the corporate media is perception management the corporacrats want passed along to manipulate our masses.

[hunter]

37. Yes, we are an empire.

Doesn't matter much if we support the empire or not, the foundations of the thing are rotting away. Political corruption and declining oil production are going to bring our empire to an end pretty soon now.

We're now at the point of the story where the Wizard protests, "Not so fast. NOT SO FAST! I'll have to give the matter a little thought. Go away and come back tomorrow."

Well, if we really were so great, we'd have kept our promises.

And look there, Toto is tugging at the curtain...

Behind the Stately Blue Curtains is a Bumbling and Cruel Banana Republic on Steroids.

[HummanaHummana]

38. Lets go back to Isolationism.

No more foreign aid, military policing, human rights oversight of insane warlords. Why don't we just shut ourselves up, seal the borders, and let the rest of the world kill themselves over religion, racial holocaust and petty despots fighting over who will rule their backward providences.

[Angela Shelley]

39. Your comments imply that the rest of the world

wouldn´t function correctly without the influence of the USA. I disagree.

But I agree with you that isolationism would be better, for everyone.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

43. As if the ONLY choices are either imperialism or isolationism? That's just silly.

Moreover, how many times has the U.S. government engaged in purely humanitarian activities (rather than political tit-for-tat or oppressive economic measures while propping dictators or waging unnecessary wars) over the last fifty years?

From what I can measure, most of the real philanthropic or humanitarian-type work have been via NGOs or individuals also on the receiving of oppressive activities if they get in the way of greedy economic or political interests serving an elite few rather than human beings as a whole.

[spanone]

45. i think our current government is interested in ongoing imperialism....i don't support them

[Angela Shelley]

49. Thanks for the direct answer. I don´t support them either.

[BoneDaddy]

51. It transcends "American"

eventually until it becomes the imperial global corporatocracy that I think it is destined to be.

[Mik T]

55. Here's how the imperial corporatocracy thing works

It depends on the fact that noone fully understands it.

It thrives in secrecy

It has friends everywhere there is money to be made.

It stands for nothing except it's own power and the deamonization of communism and socialism- which it sees as its only enemy.

Check out this website to give yourself an idea of how these power brokers work

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group


And then I don't know how many of you have seen this website:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

This is the which has the document in it which some conspiricy theorists believe points the finger to the US govt masterminding 9/11 as a way of justifying an imperialist foreign policy.

9/11 might just have been a lucky event for them but every time I look at it I do get a few chills going up my spine.

ANd I quote:A transformation strategy that solely
pursued capabilities for projecting force
from the United States, for example, and
sacrificed forward basing and presence,
would be at odds with larger American
Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century
51
policy goals and would trouble American
allies.
Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a
new Pearl Harbor


http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

It's all on pages 51 and 52 of this PDF. It was written in 2000- less then a year before 9/11.

So they might not have planned it but they sure as hell greeted it with open arms...