After 6 years, I rejoined the NRA this past weekend.

[Squatch]

After some of the discussions on firearms and the right to keep and bear arms that tore through DU last week and into the 1st part of this week, I realized that there are still quite a few people who are literally chomping at the bit to advance their extreme views on gun control when we reelect a Democratic president this fall. And its because of these people that I felt that if I want to ensure that my hobby exists long enough for me to teach my kids and them to teach theirs about the finer points of marksmanship, then I need to contribute to the one lobby organization with a single-minded focus and the oomph to fight to preserve the rights commensurate with firearm ownership.

DU exists, IMO, in part to spur people to action on a grass-roots level. So, a word of thanks to the vocal few on DU who compelled me to donate money to an organization who has, of late, stood more with the jackasses on the RW than with our own party. You've demonstrated to me that, often times, a signifcant threat to your rights exists in those you count as fellow liberal-minded Democrats.

But, in order to make sure that my money doesn't go entirely to the forces of pure evil, I've enrolled to seek certification as an NRA firearms instructor (pistol, rifle, shotgun) and a range safety officer. In order to assuage my cognitive dissonance in donating to the NRA, I'm going to use their fora for firearms instruction to teach common-sense and practical firearms safety and marksmanship. :thumbsup:

[Blue_Tires]

1. well done....congrats

that organization could use some more liberal influence

[BoneDaddy]

2. Interesting

I, like you, support the right to bear arms and think that many on this board are incredibly irrational and unrealistic when it come to this. I guess if you feel the need to join the NRA, the best you can arrive at is attempting to reeducate the morons on that end. Good luck.

[Angela Shelley]

4. And who will reeducate the morons who do not carry firearms?

[BoneDaddy]

8. I guess we are all responsible

in that area.

[liberalhistorian]

52. I don't own any firearms

and have no plans to do so in the immediate future. So, if that makes me a moron, then I proudly and loudly proclaim it.

[StClone]

135. I used to own guns of every stripe

I got rid of them. I now hunt with loaner guns if at all. True.

I gave up on guns ownership when they wouldn't let me keep my 50 caliber. That did it! :sarcasm:

[geardaddy]

35. Me too.

I support the right to bear arms.



hehe

[Angela Shelley]

3. That´s a great idea, let´s keep ourselves well-trained

to protect ourselves in times of emergency.

All other hobbies are useless in developing common sense.

[AX10]

5. k/r

[Hydra]

6. Good for you

Too many Dems think that less guns means less violence.

"Guns don't kill people, I do!"

[NightWatcher]

7. good job, they need to hear from us Pistol Packin Liberals

people may laugh, but I have gotten training and certification from members of their group and there are a few progressives in the group as well. The only ones we hear about are the Lapierre (sp) fundies, but it really is a large group. I personally would love to find a place/people to shoot with where I didnt also hear tons of rw fundie BS. I have to re-cert sometime this year- fun.

[radfringe]

9. where's your first class - I want to sign up the knuckledragger

that lives next door to us

this is a guy who flings open his back door and shoots at wild turkeys milling around his huge propane tank

[NightWatcher]

10. do you live near Woody Creek, CO?

:rofl:

[radfringe]

12. near Wilkes-Barre PA :(

maybe I can sign him up for correspondance course, although I'm not sure if he can read....

[Matariki]

14. Heh! And is your neighbor John Denver?

:rofl:

[davidinalameda]

80. he's dead

[Matariki]

83. Guess you didn't get NightWatcher's GONZO Woody Creek reference either?

[davidinalameda]

100. what can I say

I'm fighting a cold and not all here

[krispos42]

18. You should encourage him to use tracers

That would solve the problem in a spectacular fashion. And you could glue a Darwin Award plaque to his tombstone!

[CRF450]

55. Dunno if those actually work.

My best friend's dad tried to blow up a propane, he even used a tracer round. But it didn't go boom

[krispos42]

101. Hmmmm.... maybe he was too close?

Some of them take a few dozen yards to "light up", I understand. IIRC, they tried doing that on "Mythbusters", shooting a gasoline tank with tracers. I believe it was from a .223. Anyway, the tracers on a .223 apparantly use the friction of the bullet moving through the air to ignite, and they weren't having any luck because they were too close to the tank. Once they backed up a little they eventually got it to ignite.

:shrug:

[Critters2]

42. Prob'ly already an NRA member. nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

48. Just paint a turkey on his propane tank

then go on a two-week vacation far away.

Self-solving problem.

:rofl:

[MH1]

11. What % of member contributions will be used to fund ads against the Democratic presidential nominee?

Are there really NO advocacy orgs for gun owners that don't lobby for republicans?

(I'm not a gun owner myself, but I support the right to keep and bear SOME arms - nuclear weapons are right out, you know - and would support the concept of common sense gun laws. Too bad common sense is so uncommon no one can agree what it is.)

[krispos42]

20. The NRA-ILA is a single-issue lobbying organization

They advocate for Repubs soley because, in general, Repubs are pro-gun-rights. If you're lobbying for guns you're going to be mostly pro-Republican. It's a fact of life. If the Dems ever get around to changing their opinion, the money and support will shift.

[Winterblues]

What does that tell you?

Evidently guns are more important than humanity. Implememnts of death have never been the Democrats stong point. Death and destruction are most definitely in the Republican domain.. If it makes you feel more of a man to carry a gun then so be it but to me it is a symptom of fear and cowardice. I don't fear for my safety so don't feel any need to carry around a gun.

[Critters2]

27. Same here. Thank you. nt

[Johonny]

29. doesn't tell me anything

The Dems are anti-guns is a made up position. The NRA is mainly controlled by the republican party who's aim is to get single issue voters to vote against their best interest.

[Mugu]

36. In forty years of driving I have never even so much as scratched a car.

I still buy insurance every year.

Regards, Mugu

[proud2BlibKansan]

130. Do you buy insurance because you have to?

It's a law in my state.

[penguin7]

50. I agree with your post somewhat

but I do have fear that some deranged moron with a gun is going to shoot me. The scene in the Harrison Ford movie, Regarding Henry, is my greatest safety fear.

[IsItJustMe]

120. I think most of the Dems in congress do support Guns. Not here at DU, but congress, yes.

[zanne]

34. Fervent gun activists tend to be right wing conservatives, yes.

I don't think there's any denying that.

[-..__...]

58. By Federal law...

membership dues cannot be used directly for the election or defeat of candidates.

[Iggo]

13. Congrats...

...on becoming a registered gun owner.

:toast:

[spin]

15. The NRA does endorse Democrats...

The NRA has endorsed more Republicans than Democrats recently. But they do endorse Democrats who do not oppose gun ownership:

some examples:

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116061596790090051-fUvEm9ne6ODxqV9tlTRr4SPzk9E_20061110.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

http://www.abqtrib.com/news/2006/oct/03/gun-friendly-guv-gains-nra-approval/



We need more responsible Democratic shooters to stand up and counter the extreme anti gun forces in the party. More people would join the Democratic Party and vote for Democrats if they didn't fear draconian gun laws.

As a firearms instructor and a range safety officer you can help offset the common belief among Republicans that Democrats are just panty wearing liberals.

[MissMarple]

16. There is a "Shooting Liberally" group just starting up in Denver.

It is apparently associated with one of the "Drinking Liberally" groups. They are going to meet at a shooting range.

[Paladin]

125. Yeah, And They Had A Hell Of A Time Finding A Range To Use

According to the news reports, most of the shooting ranges turned them down, once they heard the "liberally" part. I guess they didn't want their sophisticated clientele bothered by undesirable leftists.

(This space reserved for standard Gun Loon comment about how it's all the Democrats' fault.)

[IndianaJones]

17. rec'd. nt.

[otohara]

19. I'm Confused, Doesn't The NRA ALWAYS

hang with the right-wing?

I hate guns and the weekly mass shootings that have become common in the USA.

[krispos42]

23. No, they hang with pro-gun candidates and people

Democrats have chosen to make themselves anti-gun, so by and large Democrats don't get NRA support. Much in the same way that Repubs don't usually get NARAL support.

It's ironic, too, because gun control historically has been used to repress, which is a regressive value, not a progressive one. Frankly, I think the authoritarian neocons squeal in glee every time some Democrat come up with a gun-control measure because it's a win-win situation for them. Either the Dems succeed in disarming the population (an authoritarian/neocon Republican goal) or the Dems drive themselves out of power (also an authoritarian/neocon Republican goal) and drive the gun owners to be loayal authoritarians. If you can't disarm the people, get them on your side! And Dems have been helping them do that.

[penguin7]

51. Guns and Freedom have nothing to do with each other

This is proven by the Gun Nuts voting for George Bush.

[krispos42]

102. Marketing works, unfortunately

It's one of America's leading industries. In one ear tell them how Democrats will take away your guns, your faith, and your money, force your kids to learn comprehensive sex ed and (the theory of) evolution, and take away your doctors and force you into a government-run medical center, and in the other ear tell them "hey, we like God, guns, and gold! Come join us and you'll have plenty of all three!!!!"

[Outlier]

24. I believe

Bill Richardson had an A+ rating from the NRA. Had he been our nominee against McCain you would have seen his (Richardson's) smiling face on the cover of the October issue of American Hunter with the NRA's endorsement. The NRA hates Mc Cain for the McCain Feingold bill, so their endorsement this year will probably be with their noses plugged, but they would have jumped at the chance to sink McCain.

[leftynyc]

25. Unless Richardson is the VP pick

which I would love as a Richardson supporter.

[ThomWV]

21. Good for you! I think you are doing exactly the right thing and applaud you for it.

[High Plains]

22. The GOP and its fundraisers thank you.

Way to support a group that consistently supports the Republican Party.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Critters2]

26. I sent a donation to the Brady Campaign.

:thumbs up:

[Squatch]

28. No you didn't.

:)

[Critters2]

30. Yes. Yes, I did.

I don't like people shooting up lecture halls on campuses where my parishioners are trying to go to school.

[Squatch]

31. Neither do I.

[Critters2]

32. Just got an e-mail from my colleague, the campus minister there

saying Fred Phelps is planning to march at the NIU memorial service Sunday. I'm stunned at how unfeeling people can be. I just sent flowers to the campus ministry.

[derby378]

72. It's as if the Phelpsoids are truly members of the undead...

Do these people ever sleep? Where do they find the time to spew so much hate at so many undeserving targets?

Do they have a crank lab hidden somewhere that I don't know about? Sheesh.

[krispos42]

104. Frankly, it a wonder there hasn't been a shooting as his church

The way they piss of the relatives and friends of soldiers and Marines.

My boss' nephew was killed in Iraq, and the Phelps scum were there at the funeral.

[zanne]

39. Just keep burying your head in the sand, Squatch.

Pro-gun control people vastly outnumber gun nuts.

[Tejas]

115. How typical, ignoring the facts again eh?

Since you need your daily reality check, hopefully someone will post the link to the DU poll on gun ownership. Until then, go ahead and keep making stuff up as per your normal routine.

[zanne]

38. Me too! I support them regularly! nt

[beevul]

111. REPUBLICANS Helmke and Brady...Imagine that. N/T

[zanne]

33. Congratulations on helping huge lobbies control our government.

Nice going. What are you going to do next--smoke next to an oxygen tank?

[krispos42]

103. ... says the person giving money to the Brady lobbyists

Oy vey.

[Xithras]

40. Congrats.

I'm a member of the NRA and the ACLU, and I see no conflict in those memberships. The NRA is a single-issue organization that supports politicians who defend the bill of rights. Despite the tone on this board and in the blogosphere, the reality is that the NRA does indeed support and donate to Democratic candidates. They care about gun rights, to the exclusion of other issues.

[CANDO]

45. Don't you mean The Second Amendment?

The NRA couldn't give a rats ass about the Bill Of Rights or they'd be storming DC locked and loaded for the past seven years. It's just that one amendment they are concerned with.

[Xithras]

49. Yes and no.

The NRA primarily exists in its current political form specifically because the ACLU and other civil rights groups generally ignore the Second Amendment. They pay attention to it because nobody else will. Still, during the many years I've been a member, I've seen position statements from them on all sorts of issues touching every amendment in the Bill of Rights except for the Third.

They are primarily a Second Amendment organization, but not to the exclusion of other rights. To the contrary, most NRA members see the Second Amendment as critical to defending the rest. They also do not like the precedent it would set if we allowed the courts and Congress to legislate an Amendment out of existence. If you want to remove an Amendment, pass a new one to override it. But "restricting" an Amendment is risky business. Anything done to the Second can be done to the First.

[CANDO]

61. I wonder how the NRA views today's SCOTUS ruling which bars

anyone from suing the gov't for warrantless spying? Bet you don't hear a peep out of them. And by the way, I am a gun owner and hunter. But the 2A was never enacted to save us from our own government, it was simply a compromise at the time in order to avoid a standing army. A standing army was considered a grave threat because a President may want to use it for empirical or purely political aims(sound familiar?). The 2A was put in place so "well regulated militias" could be called upon in the event of an invading foreign army.

[formercia]

41. I still won't join the NRA

Nobody is crazy enough to take away guns.

I was an NRA Certified Rifle Marksmanship Instructor. When the NRA went political, I left.

Arguing if a given candidate is or isn't for gun control is just another way to divide the Democratic party. The GOP has been beating this dead horse for decades.

See you at the sand pit.

[eallen]

43. I have mixed feelings about the NRA. Part of me...

Part of me wishes there were a national gun organization that was more liberal in its outlook. Another part of me thinks it is a good thing for liberal to join the NRA. So good on you, despite my mixed feelings.

:hippie:

[formercia]

44. The NRA doesn't represent gun owners

they represent the gun, ammunition and sporting goods manufacturers that make a fortune selling us overpriced hunks of wood and metal.

I won't give them one cent.

[orleans]

46. does the nra ever back democratic candidates?

i don't know much about them but from what i see they are mostly republika supporters

oh wait: i just found this:

NRA Endorses George W. Bush for President

Wednesday, October 13, 2004

FAIRFAX, VA -- The National Rifle Association`s Political Victory Fund (NRA-PVF) has endorsed George W. Bush for President of the United States.

"NRA stands with President George W. Bush on November 2nd," said Wayne LaPierre, NRA executive vice president. "If you believe in freedom and want to preserve the Second Amendment for future generations, vote to re-elect President Bush and Vice President Cheney.
http://www.nrapvf.org/News/Read.aspx?ID=4614

how could you possibly be a part of an organization that supported that motherfucker?

(where are your priorities?)

[Name removed]

53. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sanctified]

54. They Endorsed Bill Richardson and other Democrats in the Past. n/t

[-..__...]

59. And they came this close ----> <----

to not endorsing him until it became clear that the Assault Weapons Ban would indeed expire. Had it not, he would have signed it as he said he would have.

(notice the date, Wednesday, October 13, 2004, one month after the ban expired).

[apocalypsehow]

89. Your excellent question for the OP:

"how could you possibly be a part of an organization that supported that motherfucker?" has an intriguing answer, no doubt. And one that will not be posted here, at DU, I highly suspect...

[G_j]

47. this will help the GOP

because the NRA supports mostly GOP candidates.

but duhhh.. we all knew that already

So I will take it, you think your hobby is worth backing the GOP

[Sanctified]

56. Howard Dean was Endorsed 8 times by the NRA when he was Governor of VT. n/t

[-..__...]

57. Welcome back to the fold.

30+ year member here and 6 year member of GOAL (Gun Owners Action League... MA NRA affiliate).

[Paladin]

60. A Few Comments

1. Google "NRA Comic Book" and see just what your beloved National Rifle Association really and truly thinks of liberals. The hairy-legged image of the female animal rights activist is a personal favorite of mine.

2. Tell all your supporters on this thread about the poll currently open in the Gun Dungeon, indicating that 48% of your gun-worshiping "Democrat" pals are prepared to bolt to the Republicans this time around.

3. Anybody who thinks the Democratic Party is going to end up taking their guns, and aligns themselves with a cretinous right-wing organization like the NRA as a result, probably isn't smart enough to be trusted with firearms.

4. If you really want to assuage your guilt over your NRA affiliation, why don't you see about advancing Democratic Party principles within the organization? I guess that just never occurred to you, did it? Big surprise....

[-..__...]

62. This is so worth saving!

:rofl:

[Lex Talionis]

97. LOL! n/t

[Squatch]

66. "...why don't you see about advancing Democratic Party principles within the organization?"

From the Democratic Party's platform:

"We will protect Americans' Second Amendment right to own firearms..."

[apocalypsehow]

67. Excellent post, and every point right on the money.

:thumbsup:

[marmar]

73. Enchante!

:toast:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

77. Don't forget the hatred towards african americans, hispanics and asians!

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/12/26/in-case-you-missed-i.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2759754&page=1

[krispos42]

105. That's exactly why I'm not a member

Their monthly magazine is good when you strip away the political stuff, but it just makes me angry to here how wonderful some Repub candidate is. I'm always screaming (mentally) "THEY LIED US INTO A WAR IN IRAQ!!! THEY'RE SHITTING ALL OVER THE CONSTITUTION!!!" etc., etc., etc.

You know the drill.

[fascisthunter]

63. surrrre ya did

[DainBramaged]

64. (sigh) and people think I'm an asshole!

Joining the NRA is akin to kissing Bush.

[LeftyMom]

65. The capacity to kill should not be reduced to a "hobby"

Ownership of a deadly weapon is a serious responsibility, whether one views it as an anachronism, a right or a (necessary?) evil. That it's reduced to a hobby, a collection, a cause or a game is exactly what it is about gun nuts that I find so crazy and frightening.

[brentspeak]

68. This inspires me to donate to the Brady Campaign

and to advocate for RESPONSIBLE gun-owner organizations, like the American Hunters and Shooters Association.

http://www.huntersandshooters.com/index.php

[-..__...]

69. By all means...

please do.

Sarah and Co. have bills to pay and are probably tired of redeeming soda cans, looking under sofa cushions and having to pry loose the nickels and dimes stuck with months old Coke to the change tray in their cars.

[brentspeak]

71. In other words, they have zero fear of the hugely-funded and powerful NRA

Which makes them courageous and true Americans, in my book.

If the Founders were alive today, they'd completely disown and laugh off the NRA.

[Tejas]

116. Repubs = courageous and true Americans (are you daft?)

If the founders were alive today, they would find a way to run the Brady's out of town along with the redcoats. Blatant lies and propoganda didn't go over well back in those days, the Brady Bunch (REPUBS) would be sent packing.

[brentspeak]

121. Sarah Brady is a Republican? And Jim Brady still is?

Where'd you get this information from?

[Tejas]

127. They worked for Reagan, no info to the

contrary to date.

That said, concerning the 2nd Amendment, they would love it if the entire US was under draconian law such as DC and Chicago are. That goes entirely against the Democratic platform.

[wtmusic]

70. I just did

Thanks Squatch :loveya:

[Dimensio0]

76. I cannot consider an organization...

...that claims that a ban on a subset of a class of firearms least likely to be used in homicides to be "responsible". Such a position demonstrates either a lack of understanding of their subject of advocacy or a lack of honesty, either of which would disqualify an organization from being termed "responsible".

[benEzra]

109. ...except they are part of the gun-control lobby, rather than being a gun-owner organization...

their head honcho was the former head of the Massachusetts gun-control lobby, Stop Handgun Violence.

Claiming to be a gun-owner group, while pushing to outlaw the most popular civilian target rifles in America--among the least likely of all guns to be used in crimes--is a bit disingenuous.

[beevul]

112. REPUBLICANS Helmke and Brady...Imagine that. N/T

[Skittles]

74. ugh

:thumbsdown:

[Bright Eyes]

75. I support the Right To Bear Arms

http://www.zanyvideos.com/videos/family_guy_clip_the_right_to_bear_arms

[derby378]

78. Those of you who have known me for a while...

...know that I'm not a member of the NRA. I started something just for Democrats instead, a little grassroots thing that's finally starting to attract attention from Democrats across the spectrum, and now it looks like we've got a caucus at the upcoming Texas Democratic Party state convention in Austin.

But I do talk with NRA folks once in a while. I've helped them with news on local events and campaign races, and they've helped me by putting me in touch with local organizers. Republican, yes, but glad to see at least one Democrat who understands their concerns.

And about that NRA comic book released in early 2007, I downloaded a copy from Wonkette and read it once or twice. Sure, there's a lot of alarmist rhetoric about environmental extremists, minority street gangs, and RKBA-hostile legislators. But the comic also touches on some very valid concerns, such as police abuses and forcible confiscation of guns from law-abiding denizens of New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina.

Amendment II Democrats will never be a satellite of the NRA. I insist that we've got to chart our own course as Democrats, try to build our own networks. And I do have my own philosophical differences with the NRA. But we continue to talk. And they're aware that some prominent Democrats such as Jim Webb are also NRA members. One day in the near future, you may see the national paradigm on gun politics shift dramatically. And that will largely be due to Democrats joining the debate - not as Third Way compromisers, but as bona fide Second Amendment activists who believe that government still needs to provide opportunity for the little guy.

[krispos42]

106. You should put Amendment 2 dems' URL in your sig line. n/t

[derby378]

128. Maybe I should do that...

I'll give it some thought.

[depakid]

79. "their extreme views" LOL.

I have news- to the rest of the western world, it's Americans and their pathological obsession with firearms whose views are extreme... and profoundly dysfunctional.

Which of course is demonstrated every couple of weeks by repeated mass shootings that prompt the very threads you find so alarming.

[Dimensio0]

81. I was not aware that mass shootings occur "every cople of weeks".

Do you have a statistic to substantiate your claim?

[Squatch]

82. That is a statistic

albeit a false one. You should have asked if had data to substantiate the claim.

[Dimensio0]

84. You are correct.

In the future, I will use less ambiguous wording. Thank you for your advice.

[Squatch]

85. Now, go do pushups until I get tired.

[depakid]

86. Well, let's see...

first of all we have sort of a definitional problem, because what sane and rational countries consider mass shootings (and write about in their papers) varies from what Americans typically think of.

Even so, let's have a look:

These two probably qualify:

February 8, 2008: United States: three killed
A female student shoots two other women before turning the gun on herself at a Baton Rouge college in the southern state of Louisiana.

February 14, 2008: United States: at least five killed
Seventeen people are reported shot after a gunman opens fire at Northern Illinois University in suburban Chicago. The gunman killed himself.

as does this:

April 2007: United States: 33 killed
A heavily armed South Korean student kills a total of 32 people on his campus at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia. He then kills himself.

and this:

October 2006: United States: six killed
A man enters a school of the Amish community in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania and shoots 11 girls, killing five, before turning his weapon on himself.

And how about these?

~Saturday, February 1: 15-year old honor student shoots and kills parents and two brothers in Baltimore suburb;

~Saturday, February 1: Gunman shoots and kills five women in suburban Chicago clothing store;

~Sunday, February 2: Gunman shoots and kills three at suburban Washington, DC pizzeria after argument over Super Bowl;

~Thursday, February 7: Gunman shoots and kills police officer, three others in fiery Los Angeles stand-off;

~Thursday, February 7: Disgruntled citizen shoots and kills two police officers, three others in rampage during Missouri city council meeting

The list goes on and on... and still, invariably, when threads about theads about these tragedies come up, what's the hue and cry?

MORE GUNS!

That'll solve the problem- just arm even more of the population!

So, maybe you can see why people in the rest of the western world look at you all as irrational (or insane).

[Dimensio0]

87. I believe that you have misconstrued the term "mass shooting".

While the incidents that you reference are reprehensible, few of them would qualify as "mass shootings" under any standard definition of the term.

Also, who has suggested that "more guns" is a solution to problems of increased violence? Please provide specific references.

[depakid]

92. How many need to be shot before it's a mass shooting? 3? 10? 20?

Around here (NSW) the number seems to be around 3 when people use the term- but again, that's due their sensibilities- because since 1996, when the Aussies overwhelmingly said "enough is enough," there haven't been any shootings like the ones described.

In fact, shootings period are fairly rare- and when they occur anywhere in the nation, they make the news. Unlike America- where they're too commonplace to even report in the local papers!

The Los Angeles Times has found a highly innovative, if morbid, use for that new medium the blog.

Called The Homicide Report, it posts the names of every person murdered in Los Angeles County and then invites relatives, friends and others to comment. If possible, a photograph of the deceased is also run. The responses from the public range from nothing to shocking attacks on the character of the deceased (more of this in a moment).

The blog was started a year ago by the crime reporter Jill Leovy.

She was concerned that the Times was reporting fewer than 10 per cent of the 1100 murders that occur each year in Los Angeles County. (Fortunately, the Herald does not have a similar space problem: Sydney's annual murder average over the four years to 2006 was 53.)

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/a-life-remembered--and-fiercely-debated--in-las-murder-blog/2007/12/28/1198778699750.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/homicidereport/

[Dimensio0]

93. Does The Homicide Report only report on homicides committed with firearms?

If not, I do not understand its relevance in this discussion. That the United States has an unacceptable homicide rate is without question. However, claiming that the homicide rate is solely because of civillian access to firearms is specious at best, given that the United States also has high homicide rates committed with implements other than firearms -- unless you are suggesting that the mere presence and availability of firearms causes individuals to wish to commit murder, even if they themselves have no access to firearms.

[depakid]

94. The overwhelming number of entries are shootings

and yes, it's "easier" and far easier and more dissociative to point and pull a trigger than it is to bludgeon or stab someone- particularly on a whim or while in an episode of mental illness or distress, so access to firearms is indeed a cause of the high homicide rates in America- and damn near the sole cause of the sort of random mass shootings we see with increasing frequency these days.

[apocalypsehow]

98. You're wasting your time - no matter how many irrefutable facts you post

the ongoing semantics game and hair-splitting will continue. The tactic is to draw you into any number of specious statistical rabbit holes, the whole intent being to obfuscate, distort, and, in the end "declare victory" and claim that the problem is not deadly weapons of violence, but a paucity of the same.

That said, excellent posts: your facts really are irrefutable. :thumbsup:

[depakid]

99. I know- you're right

all that's going to happen is that the situtaton will continually worsen over time as the climate of fear and paranoia is reinforced again and again each time this happens (or each time people listen to the sensationalized crime blotter that passes for local "news" in America).

Seems it's just a propensity among most Americans to hit the gass when there's clearly a cliff (or a brick wall) up ahead....

[krispos42]

107. Yet when Britons turned in their guns, the homicide rate went up

The number of gun homicides went down, but the number of homicdes went up. So did occurences of firearms (in particular handguns) in crime, doubling four years after the bans went into effect before dropping a little.

The Brits turned in their "deadly assault weapons" in 1989 and their handguns in 1998. No grandfather clause, either.

[apocalypsehow]

90. Excellent post, and it thoroughly refutes the clownish tirades of the "pro-gun Democrats"

around here. But don't expect them to pay the scantest bit of attention to anything that refutes their pathological fetish with tools of violence....

[Dimensio0]

91. To which "clownish tirades" do you refer? Please be specific.

[Lex Talionis]

110. check this thread out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2885042&mesg_id=2885042. You might want one of them tools.

[Tejas]

117. No

They will simply call 911 and explain everything and then .gov will make the sun shine for them. No harm will come to them, at least that is what they tell themselves.........


:sarcasm: etc etc etc

[High Plains]

123. Dude, do you watch the news?

Or does it only count if the body count is in the double digits?

Just off the top of my head...

The guy who killed the five women at the mall in Illinois.

The guy who killed six (I think) at Northern Illinois University.

The women who shot another student and herself at Louisiana Tech.

That's just the past few weeks. I might have missed a couple more, too.

[krispos42]

108. *ahem*

Put the numbers of the Bureau of Justice Statistics into a chart. Then, because the "3", "4", and "5+" lines were so low, I blew up the bottom of the graph so you can actually see it.


Now, admitedly, this year is off to an unusually bad start, but even with things such as the Columbine shooting, multiple homicides are very rare.



And I don't worry particularly much about the rest of the western world. They thought we were strange for having a democratic republic in place of an monarchy and aristocracy, and half of them thought we were strange for not being communist.

[ileus]

88. It's been around 10 years for me...maybe I'll rejoin also.

I'll wait until November though.

[U4ikLefty]

95. Kind of like rejoining the Republicans after Civil Rights Act.

They want to protect the "right" of gun manufacturers to make $$$ by flodding a paranoid country with guns.

[Lex Talionis]

96. Well I'll be damned for sure now!

Kudos to you Squatch,After my post about armed or unarmed, I'm rejoining, too. I cannot express how glad that, a lot more than I ever thought, People on the left finally get it. Respects to you and yours. Some of my family left the Democrats for just the reasons you posted. I'm going to tell them they can come home now.

[Paladin]

113. Everybody On This Thread Who's Pledging Allegiance.....

...to the NRA needs to do the principled thing: depart from DU and don't come back. Your public acknowledgement that you've sided with the NRA puts you in direct and hostile conflict with the Democratic Party. Rather than stick around and engage in the usual non-stop trashing of Democrats over gun policy during this campaign season, why not do us all a favor and just haul ass? Go hang out with all the protofascist gun obsessives in Hestonland, mingle happily with your own kind, and and give the rest of us a break.

Do I think any of you will actually do the foregoing? Of course not. But it's fun to suggest it.....

[Tejas]

118. fixed

Your public acknowledgement that you've sided with the NRA puts you in direct and hostile conflict with the Democratic Party. Rather than stick around and engage in the usual non-stop trashing of Democrats over gun policy during this campaign season, why not do us all a favor and just haul ass? Go hang out with all the protofascist gun obsessives in Hestonland, mingle happily with your own kind, and and give the rest of us a break.



fixed it for you........

"Your public acknowledgement that you've sided with Brady Inc. puts you in direct and hostile conflict with the Democratic Party platform. Rather than stick around and engage in the usual non-stop trashing of Democratic gun owners during this campaign season, why not do us all a favor and just leave? Go hang out with all the fascist gun-grabbers in DC/Chicago/et al, mingle happily with your own kind, and and give the rest of us a break.



LOL!

[Paladin]

124. Well By God, You Certainly Put Me In My Place

Tell me: did the NRA help you to hone that rapier-like wit?

My comments stand. If you're pridefully and publicly announcing your association with a hyper-conservative, Democrat-hating group like the NRA on a Democratic site, you ought to get the hell out. You've confirmed that your opinions and arguments are not worthy of any serious consideration whatsoever, here. Summon up some strength of character, if you have any---the kind of strength that isn't dependent on guns---and say adios......

[Tejas]

126. Not that you actually know anything

Many Dem gun owners are NRA members and the NRA has rated a number of Dem candidates A+, but that shouldn't matter to you as pesky facts always seem to irritate the heck out've you.

ps: we miss your vast knowledge of the 2nd in the Gungeon.

[Paladin]

132. I Walked Away From Participation In The Gungeon.....

....after the Cheney shooting incident. You gun obsessives had spent the previous months savaging John Kerry for that infamous goose hunt, for the manner in which he held a gun, for his voting record on firearms, and for any other reason the NRA brought up. But after Dick Cheney put a load of birdshot into a fellow hunter's face, you guys got real, real quiet all of a sudden. It just confirmed to me that you're a lot more ready to shit-can Democrats than you are Republicans---even evil, world-class thug Republicans like Cheney. And on that basis, I decided to bring my Gungeon participation to a halt, a decision I've never regretted. I recently made an exception to this position and kicked that poll down there to the top a couple of times, so it will be more noticeable; I think any survey that shows that 48% of you are planning on going over to the Republicans on the ridiculous basis that they are going to guard any of your freedoms---guns included---better than Democrats, ought to be broadcast to as many people as possible. If you guys had paid attention to anything besides guns in the last 8 years, you might realize that voting for Republicans really isn't that good an idea.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I don't expect any of you NRA types to walk away from DU; obviously, you get too much enjoyment out of trashing Democrats, particularly during campaign season. Whatever adjusts your reticles, I guess.....

[Hangingon]

114. I have been thinking of rejoining.

Guess I should. The posts of late have been bothering me too.

[Tejas]

119. Depends on if I find a good deal

Went to the Reliant show in Houston. The line at the door was 34 miles long but if you joined the NRA on the spot you could get in free.

I did the math........$25 to join/get in free versus $12 for the show and an hour (maybe more) wait in the ticket line.


You guessed it, took 3-4 minutes for paperwork and walked right in.

[ieoeja]

122. After I quit the NRA...

I quit the NRA after the terrorist attack in Oklahoma City. Actually, I quit after Wayne LaPierre's article stating, "the NRA has never said anything that might have encouraged the terrorists," appeared in an American Rifleman issue which included another Neal Knox article discussing UN black helicopters taking over a Chicago suburb one night.

Over the next few months they would call me from time to time asking me to rejoin. Every conversation went virtually the same:

NRA: Would you like to rejoin?

ME: I am extremely pro-gun. I am also liberal on other...

NRA: {click}


This somehow left me with the impression that the NRA does not want liberal members, even if they do support the RKBA.

[rainman99]

129. I've lived in the south my whole life and managed to

do it w/o a gun in the house. I really don't see the point.
But it's a free country, unless there's a republican in the white house.

[hollowdweller]

131. I usually join NRA when a Dem is in the WH and the ACLU when a Rep is BUT

I just don't see the Democrats passing any gun legislation that's going to lose them any rural votes.

Clinton has copped to the fact the stuff he passed helped the Dems lose in 94.

I know for sure Gore lost my state, that almost always votes Dem over gun control.

The Dems don't want to see the rural areas that elected democrats in the last election boot them out.

They think maybe stuff like helping the middle class, health care, getting us out of Iraq and stuff like that might be more important than losing congress again before they can get anything like that accomplished.

So I'm not worried. We may see greater screening to keep the mentally ill from buying guns, but any registration and gun banning schemes? Don't think we'll see it happening any time soon. Look at the rash of shootings. There's no stampede in congress to pass any new laws. They know better.

[Paladin]

134. "They know better"

Here's hoping that you don't lose anyone near and dear to you in the next hundred mass shootings that are bound to happen, at schools, office buildings, shopping malls, churches and all those other places where most people don't think guns are a good fit. And thank Christ there's no stampede to do anything about it. Is this a great country or what?


(This space reserved for standard Gun Loon response about solving society's root problems over the next hundred years or so, while remaining armed to the hilt.)

[StClone]

133. I won't rest

Until everyone is armed to the teeth...

[AX10]

136. Go back to FreeRepublic!

:sarcasm: