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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:26 PM
Original message
Cuba wants Gitmo back - denounces torture prison


http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0%2C21985%2C23211613-663%2C00.html


Cuba demands US gives back Guantanamo Bay


CUBA has demanded the US return Guantanamo Bay to the island nation and denounced the "war on terror" prison, where six detainees could face the death penalty.

Cuba's Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque claimed today that suspects held in the US naval base in the southeastern tip of Cuba have been subjected to torture and face unfair legal treatment.

Cuba rejects "the violation of human rights, unjust incarceration of prisoners held there without charges, and their appearance in courts without guarantees and in which they are convicted in advance,'' he told reporters.

He did not directly refer to the case of six detainees facing charges that carry the death penalty.

"We demand again the closure of the indecent Guantanamo prison, the return of the territory illegally occupied to our fatherland,'' Perez Roque said.

The United States, which has occupied Guantanamo for more than 100 years, signed in 1934 a lease agreement with the Cuban government that could not be altered without agreement by both countries.

Since 1960, a year after it came to power, Fidel Castro's communist government has refused the annual lease payment of 5000 dollars from the United States.
-snip-
------------------------------------


Cuba should get it back and remove any sign of the neo cons footprint and then turn it into the most beautiful and original garden in the world.

and when a climate change weather event comes along and messes with the garden; fix it and we will all go on as if

and, please, let's not go off on a 'cuba tortures too' rant. keep to the subject of gitmo returning to Cuba. we all would like that.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Right - Like that is going to happen
Who needs some political saber rattling from a insignificant little spec of a country
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. when a bunch of little specks get together it becomes a BIG speck


I didn't see any sabers
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Who the Fuck is Cuba to talk to anyone about Torture
Btw: “Horse with a tooth ache”

Fidel’s favored torture method. And just in case you don’t know what horses do when they have a tooth ache, have you ever noticed how the fencing on some horse’s stalls is all chewed up. It is the only way they can relieve the pain.

The Cuban Government used to place prisoners in jail cells with a “Horse with A tooth ache”

The horse isn’t likely to use the iron bars to chew on.

Got that from a Cuban refugee.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. did you not read my request?
nt
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Why should we give it a country 1000 more ruthless ?
Really – get with reality.

Cuba has and does practice torture techniques that make water boarding look passive. Not to mention the many 1000s of people they just plain out right killed when Fidel took over. One of which was my friend’s uncle – Killed for no other reason then he was a Doctor and had made a good living.

You’ve completely lost me on this one.

Maybe they can turn it into a theme park. Entrails Extravaganza, Fingernails splinter Trails, ect, ect
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. sorry but you can't condemn the US without condemning Cuba
Castro has absolutely NO right to criticize anyone about torture

why should the US return Gitmo to Castro?


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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. does that mean you are pro torture?
nt
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. At least America gives you the Freedom to spout your BS
In Cuba you would be tortured for it
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. the leaps of logic on here sometimes astound me
yes, I am pro-torture

why do you ask?

:sarcasm:

are you pro-idiot?
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Angela Shelley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Because one party needs to take the first step.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why should the US hold land in a sovereign nation that doesn't belong to them?
That was used as a coal refueling station?
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Because you hate America ?
Is that the answer you are looking for.

Oh I get it - we can give it back to them so they can place missles there and point them at Mexico. I get it, your really smart that way
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Missiles pointed at Mexico?!?! That's fucking ridiculous!
Cuba has an embassy in Mexico, they are not antagonists.

A sovereign nation has the right to control its territory, period.

sw
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. So they need Gitmo so they can place missles there because
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 01:26 PM by Ichingcarpenter
they can't place them anywhere else in Cuba to point them at Mexico....

Do you know how ridiculous that argument is?

When Gitmo is on the far southeast side and not the west side of the island?


Here's a Map Genius



Now, do you know where Mexico is in relation to the Map?
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Florida22ndDistrict Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. re: Why should the US hold land in a sovereign nation that doesn't belong to them?
It's left over from the Spanish American War. Cuba was once an American territory like Puerto Rico, but we released the land back to the Cuban people to govern themselves. Our base was kind of our watchful eye over them as we acted as protector. Of course ruff politics brought Cuba General Batista and as a result Castro. We stick around in the hopes that Cuba will return to a democracy and be on good terms with us in the future. That aside, what Bush has used it for is unjustifiable.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks Massa fer looking over us, us chilldren don't knows much better
I's guess we's not smart enough to do that fer ourselves.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Um ... it's the US not on good terms with Cuba. Ever hear of the US embargo or other US sanctions?
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 02:19 PM by Billy Burnett
We stick around in the hopes that Cuba will return to a democracy and be on good terms with us in the future

No. "We" (the USA) don't just stick around. "We" fuck with Cuba each and every day.

The Cubans are certainly not closed to great relations with the US. Cuba has no travel ban on Americans. The US travel bans Americans from going there. The Cubans bring up a vote every year at the UN, and every year there is overwhelming support for resolutions condemning the US sanctions on Cuba.

Not to mention any of this.

No. "We" aren't just sticking around Cuba.

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Florida22ndDistrict Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. re: um...
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 05:52 PM by Florida22ndDistrict
Obviously Castro's revolution and latter alliance with the former USSR put a torn in the side of America. We tend to stick around when things don't work as planned (i.e. Iraq, Korea, Germany). The Cold War played a huge roll in it. Most hope that when Castro dies there will be an opening for democracy. How it will play out, I don't know, but hopefully it is peaceful. Do you have a problem with the USA having bases in places like Germany or the UK?
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. If they agree to it.
Cubans want Guantanamo back.

Reasonable Americans too.


Honor the Treaty: Close Guantanamo
By Wayne S. Smith
http://ciponline.org/cuba/Op-eds/052506HonorTreaty.htm
Guantanamo should be closed. Indeed, if we are really to do the right thing, we should recognize that we are in Guantanamo today in blatant violation of the original treaty of 1903, and of its continuing agreement of 1934. These state flatly that the U.S. can use Guantanamo only as a “coaling or naval station.” We have no right whatever under the treaties to operate a prison there. And we have no need for “coaling and naval facilities.” Hence, we should wash our hands of it, abide by the treaty and return Guantanamo to Cuba, which had earlier indicated that it might turn the base into a medical research center for diseases prevalent in the Caribbean—a much better use for it than its present one.

According to international law, the violation of a treaty by one party provides grounds to terminate that treaty. Cuba would be within its rights to take the whole issue to the UN General Assembly, calling for a resolution stating that the U.S. was occupying the base illegally and demanding action by the International Court of Justice.

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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Here are the treaties.
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 08:01 PM by Mika
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. it's called a lease
anyway, if Cuba wasn't communist, I'm willing to bet that a good chunk of people who want the US to return Gitmo to Cuba wouldn't care

the hard left wing appeasers on here are just as bad, if not worse, than the right wing appeasers on site like FR


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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Just how wide is your broad brush?
:crazy:
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. Article: HOW THE US STOLE GUANTANAMO BAY
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 01:20 PM by Mika
HOW THE US STOLE GUANTANAMO BAY
In the last two years the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba has regularly been seen in the news due to the imprisonment of hundreds of Muslims held there by the United States without trial.

It is well documented that the prisoners are held in terrible conditions and they have included minors. Cuba has surprisingly come under fire from some quarters for allowing this behaviour on their land. It is important to explain that Cuba has no power over this area of their own soil, as for the last 100 years it has been occupied by the United States and is separated from the rest of Cuba by one of the world’s most intense minefields.

The area known as Guantanamo Bay covers nearly 118 square kilometres of eastern Cuba, it contains 2 airfields and is home to around 3,000 permanently stationed US military personnel, whilst a further floating population of thousands arrives and departs by air and sea each month.

The annual rent for the leasing of this land is 2,000 gold coins, equal to $4,085, so around one cent per square metre of land! However, since 1959 and the triumph of the Revolution, no cheque has ever been cashed. Since March of that year Cuba has demanded that the US return the base and has regularly had resolutions passed at the Non-Aligned Movement calling for the base to be returned.

The history of Guantanamo Bay is a perfect example of US policy towards Cuba since the end of the 19th century. In 1898, just as the Cuban patriots’ independence army was about to achieve victory after 30 years of armed struggle against the Spanish Crown, the United States declared war on Spain after their warship, The Maine, was allegedly torpedoed by the Spanish. Later that year, rule of Cuba was transferred from Madrid to Washington at the Treaty of Paris, where no Cubans were present, after US President McKinley had stated “it wouldn’t be wise to recognise the independence of the Cuban Republic”.

However, the Cuban struggle for independence looked likely to begin again, this time against US rule and in 1901 the US introduced the Platt Amendment. This allowed the President to hand over rule of the island to the Cuban people, but only after a government and constitution could be established that set out future relations between the two countries. A major part of the constitution forced the future Cuban government to lease part of its territory for the establishment of US naval stations. The result was the 1903 Permanent Treaty, which decided that a piece of Cuban land was to be leased to the USA, and 100 years ago the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base ceased to be a part of Cuban territory.

The base was very unpopular with the Cuban people before the US Navy had even moved in, leading the Cuban government to write a letter to Washington asking for any changeover ceremony to be kept to a minimum, as there had been protests against the lease. But only nine years later, the US imposed another agreement on Cuba, enlarging the size of the US area to what it is now, even though this covered an access channel which had previously been agreed as a shared channel, to ensure ‘free trade.’

In 1934, faced with economic hardships, the US began a so-called “Good Neighbour” policy and signed a Treaty of Reciprocity, which repealed the Platt Amendment and the 1903 Permanent Treaty, but maintained all stipulations concerning Guantanamo. However, as the treaty was being signed in Washington, over 20 US warships paid “friendly” visits to various points along the Cuban coast.

So what goes on at Guantanamo, why is it necessary for the US to have a base on the territory of a country where they have imposed an economic blockade for over forty years?

According to the US it has been essential in fighting drug trafficking during their war on drugs, and vital for military training, such as Ocean Venture in 1992, when a 30,000 strong force was flown in at a cost of millions of dollars. But it has also been pivotal in the invasions of the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Nicaragua, Mexico and Panama, continuous reconnaissance missions over Cuba, planning counterrevolutionary missions, attempting to engage Cuban forces in full scale combat and thousands of violations and acts of provocation against the Cuban people. This has included throwing objects from planes, aiming rifles, canons and even tanks, disrespecting the Cuban flag, 7’breaking boundary fences. In 1962 alone there were nearly 6,000 violations of Cuba’s jurisdictional waters with military vehicles.

These acts began in 1961 when an oil refinery was damaged and a sailor killed by shots from a pirate ship that had come from the base. Local people have been targeted. In 1964 38 fishermen were imprisoned on the base, and there are numerous tales of Cubans being arrested and even murdered after being accused of working for the Cuban government.

The US authorities have a shameful record of treatment of employees at the base, there have been periodic mass layoffs, which could only be avoided by Cubans renouncing their citizenship. And although all staff are meant to be given a retirement fund made up of 6% of their wages, very few have ever received it, with well over $4 million owed by the US government.

Actions like those listed above show that the Guantanamo Naval base has been an expression of the United States’ unsatisfied geopolitical ambitions for Cuba. The cause of the dispute between the two states, has been the US authorities’ resistance to seeing Cuba become a free and sovereign nation, breaking away from plans for US control over the Cuban people that have spanned three centuries. Which is why the US has never even entered into any discussions over a possible eventual handover, despite repeated requests from the Cuban government.

Even during the Missile Crisis in 1962 the US administration was not prepared to talk about handing back Guantanamo, but was prepared to take the world to the brink of nuclear war. Yet, according to international law, the United States has no right to still be at the base. International law establishes consent as the basis for any legal obligation resulting from an agreement, where is the consent in any of the agreements concerning Guantanamo?

The lease was forced onto a government that had been installed as puppets of the American regime and remained there under threat of military intervention. International law also consecrates the precept of basic change of circumstance, which should have led to a US departure as soon as they broke off diplomatic relations in 1961 and the base was no longer a show of “friendship” but a tool of US aggression.

And finally, quite simply it is absurd to think that the owner of anything that is leased cannot recover it at a given time, as any lease is per se, temporary.

Most of the information above has been taken from the book Guantanamo; The Bay of Discord, by Roger Ricardo, available on www.cubaconnect.co.uk


As an aside, US policy on Cuba since the 1800's ..

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/bmemo.htm
J.C. Breckenridge, U.S. Undersecretary of War - 1897

We must destroy everything within our cannons’ range of fire. We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army. The allied army must be constantly engaged in reconnaissance and vanguard actions so that the Cuban army is irreparably caught between two fronts and is forced to undertake dangerous and desperate measures.

-

We must create conflicts for the independent government. That government will be faced with these difficulties, in addition to the lack of means to meet our demands and the commitments made to us, war expenses and the need to organize a new country. These difficulties must coincide with the unrest and violence among the aforementioned elements, to whom we must give our backing.

To sum up, our policy must always be to support the weaker against the stronger, until we have obtained the extermination of them both, in order to annex the Pearl of the Antilles {Cuba}.

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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. As if that is an un bias source
Pure bullshit meant to spread disinformation.

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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Ms Cleo? Is that you.
Note: keep blinders on.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. lol good one
nt
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Here's an unbiased source for you.
This is where you'll find the truth. ;)

https://www.cnic.navy.mil/Guantanamo/index.htm


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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Thanks for posting this, it's good to know more about this history.
I wish more people understood how U.S. imperialism has been operating for a very long time.

Nice to see you again, too! Don't run across your posts much these days.

:hi:
sw
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. I wish more people would take the time.
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 08:15 PM by Mika

:hi:

Interesting couple of paragraphs here..

(Scroll down to..) Guantanamo: No Rights of Occupancy
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9300%28196901%2963%3A1%3C114%3AGNROO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-G&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

Here too..

http://weeklycomment.blogspot.com/2006/02/guantanamo-bay.html


Not to mention..

Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, 1969
http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:hO971hUp3EYJ:untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/1_1_1969.pdf+1969+Vienna+Convention+on+the+Law+of+Treaties&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
Article 52
Coercion of a State by the threat or use of force

A treaty is void if its conclusion has been procured by the threat or use of force in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations.




-
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
22. Cuba could open a Human Rights Museum at GITMO
Of course, the US will destroy all evidence of the GITMO prison before leaving Cuba!

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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
23. This thread is for Morons
Cuba is a 1000 times worse then America on it's worst day

Actually I was thinking of risking my life to sail there on a home made raft seeking political asylem.

Refresh my memory as to why we should give back American territory to a government that tortures its citizens a 1000 times more ruthlessly then water boarding. Has ZERO civil rights, and lets it's citizens starve to death

Because your a Moron????????????
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Actually this thread was for persons wanting to discuss Gitmo's return. Not torture.
That's why I'm on this thread.

But please, do go ahead and speak for yourself on this thread.





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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Sorry - I'll never support a ruthless communist regime
Don't care we "Took" the base either

Castro killed, tortured, and imprisoned his own people by the 1000s. The fact today they are so poor they tempt death by trying to sail here on home made rafts is testimony of just how good the Cuban government serves it's own people.

But I am in favor of giving Cuba the MORONs that are in support of giving Cuba the base at Gitmo

Actually I'll trade Fidel all the morons in support of giving him the base at Gitmo for an equal number of boat people.
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