If right wing fundies only knew: Mitt Romney's cult of Mormonism

[Fridays Child]

My tax accountant once said to me, "I'm not a Mormon. I'm a Christian." He knew the difference but do most Christians really understand that Mormonism is not Christianity?

Here are just a handful of facts that distinguish Mormons from Christians:

Mormons believe that, if they play their eternal cards right, they'll eventually become the Mr. and Mrs. Gods of their own planets.

They believe that magic underwear, the "temple garment," keeps them safe.

They believe that the devil will destroy those who swim or bathe (showers are allowed) while undertaking their two years of mission work, which is mandatory for Mormon boys.

They research and "document" the most dubious of genealogical connections to find dead people who were supposedly related to them. Then, they use those records for what they call "temple work," or baptism of the dead into their religion. And the emphasis is on quantity over quality. The more dead "relatives" they can find to baptize, the better Mormons they are, in the eyes of their church. So, while you're going about your daily business, rest assured that some Mormon is inducting your dead family members into Mormonism.

To this day, mainstream Mormons continue to practice bigamy; they've merely taken it underground, so to speak. While men can't take more than one wife in this earthly life, they can, through divorces from, or deaths of, successive wives, be "sealed" to every one of their wives, in this life and, thus, remain married to all of them, in the afterlife. A Mormon woman, on the other hand, may be "sealed" to one man, only.

Unlike Christianity, whose founder, Jesus, opened the doors of the church to all, in the Mormon religion, members must qualify for something called a "temple recommend," in order to gain entrance to the temple. And, once inside, they engage in arcane Masonic rituals--including secret oaths and handshakes--while clad in sheets and robes.

There's lots more and it's all just about as "normal" as, to paraphrase Hallmark's Maxine, sitting around a dead tree in the living room and eating candy from a sock. But the point is that, if Mitt Romney wants the Republic nomination, he needs to align himself with the right wing, fundamental Christian leaderhip. Would they be able to use their considerable influence for his benefit, if their rank and file knew the truth about Mormonism?

More information here and here

[Rosemary2205]

1. Excuse me but bullshit.

all it takes to be a Christian is to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the messiah, that he died to pay for our sins and that he rose from the dead. Mormons believe all of that. The rest is window dressing - for ANY denomination.


If you don't like Mitt Romney that's fair. If you disagree with Mormonism that's fair too. But please keep it real.

[WindRavenX]

3. word

An accurate example of actual journalism looking into the darker elements is "Under The Banner of Heaven".

But I'm seeing a lot of stupid hatred towards mormons. Yes they're fucked up in a lot of ways, but it's not anything new or different from religions in general. Bullshit is bullshit is bullshit.

[deadmessengers]

6. Bingo

Nonsense like this is spouted by fundie Protestants to make their bigoted point that Catholics aren't Christian.

We've got LOTS of reasons to dislike Mittens. His Mormon faith shouldn't be one of them, lest we lower ourselves to the level of the theocrats on the Christian right.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

15. If he says "faith" is a requirement for president he's fair game for examination of his faith

.

[deadmessengers]

20. He's wrong

He's wrong about that, and the Constitution says so. But, by examining his faith, you lend credence to the belief that faith is a requirement for the Presidency. Better to go after him on his political beliefs, and not get down into the religious mud like the wingnuts.

[Fridays Child]

23. It doesn't matter. He's the one who has opened that door.

And it lends credence to nothing. It only exposes his beliefs. And that's fair game because many Americans base their voting decisions on that issue--something that the Constitution does allow them to do.

[hfojvt]

9. that's your definition of Christian

I think Romney might influence alot of fundies to stay at home. They probably still could not vote for a Democrat. Before that happens though, I think it actually will keep him from the nomination, but, then again, it did not keep him from being elected governor, and Mormons are everywhere too and most of them are probably registered Republicans, but that never helped Hatch very much.

Mormons are not considered another Protestant denomination. Unlike Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, Moravians, Nazarenes, Free Methodists, Congregationalists, etc., etc., they have an extra book that they revere as a Bible - the book of Mormon. No other protestant denomination officially respects that book. Myself, much as I love some aspects of mormonism, particularly the genealogy, their book deserves less respect than the Koran or the Bible.

[Bill McBlueState]

45. the Catholics have extra books in their bible

that no Protestant bible contains. Does that mean one of these groups isn't a real denomination?

[Fridays Child]

51. That's a logical fallacy.

Presenting a single distinction between Catholics and Protestants to counter the premise that Mormons are not Christians is a straw man argument. The fact is that differences between Mormons and Christians are manifold.

[Radical Activist]

60. Very weak argument.

The differences between Pentecostals and the Eastern Orthodox Church are manifold. Does that mean only one group may call themselves Christian? Who is the arbiter of who may call themselves Christian once we get into the business of telling people they aren't allow to self-identify their own faith?

How completely fucking arrogant of you to tell someone who has faith in Jesus and the Bible that they aren't allowed to call themselves Christian because they don't meet your definition.

[Fridays Child]

85. Call yourself whatever you want.

How completely fucking arrogant of you to assume that I'm supposed to give a shit what you want to call yourself.

The only real thing I care about, for the purpose of this discussion thread, is the danger posed to the secular democracy into which I was born and which I fully support, by any member of any religion who thinks that his or her beliefs should provide any basis, whatsoever, for the enactment, enforcement, rescindment, or upholding, of laws.

However, if it's a religious state in which you desire to reside, stick around because it looks like you'll be getting your wish, sooner rather than later.

[Radical Activist]

87. Now you're switching arguments from your OP.

Let me quote your post: "...do most Christians really understand that Mormonism is not Christianity?
Here are just a handful of facts that distinguish Mormons from Christians:"

I assume you care about that not because I'm arrogant, but because that's what your post was about. The point of your post was to argue that Mormons are not Christian. Now you're trying to back away from that argument.

If you want to argue that people should not push their views onto others through use of the government, then argument that. I agree with you.
I don't agree with you spreading more misunderstanding about a religion that was already once violently driven from the United States by people who couldn't accept the views of others. That's a dishonorable and sleazy way to make an argument without being up front as to what your real point is.

[Fridays Child]

92. Hate to disappoint you but I will not back away from my original premise at all.

Many Mormon beliefs and practices are antithetical to Christianity. Now, if you believe that I have misrepresented any part of Mormonism, prove it. Until then, I will continue to support pointing out such facts to the hugely powerful right wing Christian fundamentalist voting bloc which, if politically successful enough, will most assuredly deny basic civil and human rights to many Americans.

It's that important.

[WinkyDink]

54. The Douai (Catholic) Bible pre-dates the KJ. "Authorized" of 1611.

It's not a separate "Bible", with a separate Prophet, with stories of the New World.

[hfojvt]

91. it's a Bible with 5 or 6 extra 'books'

Very old books, presumably from very old manuscripts. Not a new book written in the nineteenth century. Moreover, the extra books do not produce a significant change in theology - unlike the Book of Mormon, they are not consider the primary scriptures for Catholics ahead of Genesis, Isaiah, Psalms, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, etc.

[kestrel91316]

97. That's why fundie Christians don't consider Catholics to be true

Christians either.

[Fridays Child]

10. I'm calling bullshit, too.

There are some Christians who DO NOT believe that Mormonism is a Christian denomination. The Southern Baptist Convention identifies Mormonism as a cult and here is an article that sets forth some of the reasons for that.

And here's keeping it real: Right wing fundamentalists represent a huge and powerful voting bloc, in this country. From recent news, it's becoming clear that Mitt Romney is already trying to court them. With that in mind, there is absolutely nothing wrong with disseminating information which will allow them to decide for themselves, if Mr. Romney should be president, based on the facts, not on what some of their more self-serving and hypocritical leaders, want them to believe--or ignore.

[Rosemary2205]

17. The southern Baptist convention

can't even agree on everything that "qualifies" as christianity. Half of them think allowing women to preach in church makes the church no longer a valid christian church. About a fourth of them think if a woman cuts her hair she's going to burn in hell.

I appreciate the fact some fundies don't think of Mormonism or Catholicism as a valid Christian denomination. However, in your OP you made it sound like YOU personally agreed with them. My "bullshit" comment was on the basis of that. You have since clarified your position and I can now amend my comment to "those fundies who think that are wrong".

The fundies can say whatever they damn well please about Mormonism being a non Christian "cult". They would be wrong.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rosemary2205]

32. That's not my job

let the fundies have their own battles. If they want to jump into a steaming pile of dog lick and use religion as a weapon let them. Personally I think that tactic is offense and quite frankly counter productive.

[Fridays Child]

34. There have always been those who are willing...

...to let someone else do what they deign to be the "dirty work." That's nothing new. In fact, it is often precisely that attitude "offensive" some may find them, and let voters decide is quite productive.

It's all in the framing: Mitt Romney has put faith on the table. Moreover, he has encouraged voters to find out about his religion (beginning at, approximately, 4:52), which the man, himself, stops short of calling Christianity. This door is now wide open and the facts of Mormonism are, as I've said, fair game.

[Radical Activist]

61. Some people believe the Southern Baptist Convention is a cult.

And frankly, I think they more closely resemble one than Mormons do. Regardless, the SBC has never troubled itself with accuracy when it writes its propoganda against Mormons. No liberal, open-minded person should associate themselves with the kind of bigoted hate-literature the SBC produces about Mormons.

[WinkyDink]

102. Any PROTESTant who does know what the PROTEST was

against---THE Christian Church of the time, aka, Catholicism---is certainly a "Fundie", as in "fundament".
Even Martin Luther and Henry VIII were CATHOLICS.

[Buzz Clik]

58. I'm with you there.

The OP was like some bizarre screed from a fundie trying to convince of something.

Oh, wait...

[Fridays Child]

79. If you want to mischaracterize the OP...

...you should at least have the courage to address her, directly.

[Buzz Clik]

105. I mischaracterized nothing.

I agreed with someone calling you on your bullshit and provided my own interpretation. Nothing more.

I'm always amused by posters who put up intentionally inflamatory comments and then act surprised when somebody chaps their ass.

[Fridays Child]

114. Conversely, I am never surprised by...

...cowardly behavior.

[kestrel91316]

96. There's not a speck of BS in the OP. Sorry.

Read Fawn Brody's bio of Joe Smith, No Man Knows My History for a well-researched work on the curious history of the LDS church.

Fundie Christians HATE Mormonism and call it a cult, and do not recognize it, or Jehovah's Witnesses, as Christian sects. Just check out what's on the bookshelves in the cult section of your local Christian bookstore.

[eagler]

101. Mormonism is closer to Hinduism than Christianity

but they still deserve to be free from bigots.

[Momgonepostal]

109. Thank you, Rosemary nt

[DUgosh]

2. Oh I think they know

All about what Mormons believe, but I believe they will choose to ignore it. Look how they ignore what * does.

[Fridays Child]

7. I'm not so sure that they do know.

And, IMO, their acceptance of Bush, who professes to be a born-again Christian--not a born-again Mormon--is no indicator of how they would view Romney if they really understood his religion.

[Nabia2004]

31. I grew up with Mormons on 3 sides and this is new to me

They lived on both sides of our house and across the street. Talk about a quite neighborhood on Sundays. I knew Mormonism was a eccentric, restrictive, and to me boring lifestyle, but I did not realizing just how fantastical it was. This helps explain how L. Ron Hubbard, was so convinced that he could start his own successful religion, The Church of Scientology. Joseph Smith had done the same 100 years earlier with LDS, and was perhaps an example of just how easy it was.

[Fridays Child]

38. You might be on to something, there.

Mormons, as I've pointed out, elsewhere, are very secretive about their rituals because they wish to avoid both scrutiny and ridicule. This explains why you may have been unaware of some of their more arcane practices.

[yardwork]

81. Every religion has rituals - there's always somebody ridiculing them

The presence of such rituals is not evidence that any particular religion or belief system is more or less valid than another.

Further, I think it is futile to hope that right-wingers will act upon inconsistencies among those they support. Right-wingers are generally hypocrites.

[Fridays Child]

86. There is some evidence to suggest that...

...potentially significant cracks are beginning to form between between traditional fundamentalist Christians and the GOP. I am in favor of framing issues in such a way as to exploit those cracks, so long as doing so doesn't involve the kind of rank dishonesty that neocons so regularly employ. Toward that end, every point I made in my original post is, to my knowledge, completely factual.

[northzax]

4. and this is somehow weirder

than believing the God chose the wife of a barely literate carpenter in a forsaken part of the globe who never consummated her marriage to bear his only child? come on people. Come on, people. Joseph Smith was undeniably a con-man, but then so was St. Peter.

[Fridays Child]

5. I'm not "picking that bone" here.

The point is that rank and file right wing fundies are being told by their hypocritical and self-serving leadership that Mitt is one of them. If they understood that his religion bears almost no resemblance to their own, it could well sink his candidacy.

[Rosemary2205]

8. "RW fundies"

don't even think other mainstream christian denominations are christians. Hell, half the Baptists think the Pope is the antichrist. The Pentecostals think the methodists are going to hell because they cut their hair and wear makeup.

You can't even put all the fundies in the same boat when it comes to who they'll support politically based on religion.

[Fridays Child]

11. So what?

Is simply providing factual information, here at DU, taboo? If it is, that's too bad because I'm going to do it, anyway. If a candidate's religious beliefs are important to any given voter, then the facts regarding Mormonism are fair game. Period.

[BushOut06]

56. YES, it is

When that "information" is given solely for the purposes of tarnishing a particular religion, it's considered inflammatory and generally isn't tolerated. You don't see very many posts slandering Islam, do you? Yet we all know there are problems within the Islamic faith - notably their treatment of women. At the same time, that doesn't mean it's okay to post slanderous anti-Islam posts on DU. So why should it be acceptable to trash Mormonism or any other religion?

[Fridays Child]

78. Is there an Islamic American running for president?

Does that candidate intend to lead the nation according to his religious beliefs rather than our Constitution? If elected, is he likely to preside over the further erosion of civil liberties, vital medical research, and the right of women to make their own reproductive decisions?

For you to suggest the my OP was written "solely for the purposes of tarnishing a particular religion" is ignorant as well as repugnant.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

16. That's for fundies to decide. It's our job to remind them Mitt is a Mormon

.

[tishaLA]

12. Some of this is untrue, I believe

The things that irritates me about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is that they do posthumous "proxy baptisms" on Jews....including those who died in the Holocaust. And it apparently has continued even AFTER the LDS said they'd stop it.

Bad taste, as far as I'm concerned.

[Fridays Child]

13. What is untrue?

[tishaLA]

22. For one thing, the underwear story

My understanding from Mormon friends is that the church used to encourage them to be worn to discourage Onanism (oh, one doesn't have the opportunity to use that word very often!), not that they had magical powers. And the garment really is a thing of the past, by and large. Sure, some "fundamentalists" still wear them, but not mainstream Mormons.

[Fridays Child]

26. Oh, it's very much a current phenomenon.

I reside in a heavily Mormon area, and I'm here to tell you that almost all of them wear the temple garment. And, according to Mormons I know, they actually believe that the garment gives them some magical protection, although they would not use the word "magical."

You may think it's a thing of the past because, as my Mormon next-door neighbor explained to me, the church discourages discussion about it with outsiders, simply, to avoid being ridiculed.

[Radical Activist]

75. No, they wouldn't use the word "magical"

Because they don't view it as magic, and calling it that is condescending, misleading and insulting to their beliefs.

[Fridays Child]

82. Mormons wear mystically protective underwear.

Christians believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. Moses parted the Red Sea. It's all superstition and magic.

And I really don't care what any religious American believes...until it threatens the rights of Americans who don't believe in the same things.

[Rosemary2205]

30. Active temple endowed mormons in GA wear them often.

the main purpose is to be a reminder to the wearer of the religious commits they have made with God and to promote modesty. However, there are a few who pass on anecdotal stories about how so and so was burned on their whole body except for where the undies (garment) covered them, or how so and so was in a car wreck and wasn't hurt anyplace the garment covered, or how such and such a soldier was shot and the garment stopped the bullet but most of the Mormons I know here in GA take those stories with an enormous grain of salt.

Why anyone would have a problem with Mormon religious garments or rituals and not religious rituals or jewelry or clothing worn by other christian denominations is beyond my understanding.

[Fridays Child]

35. It's beyond my understanding, too.

I think it's all delusional, personally.

[NoodleyAppendage]

14. Look up the Kinderhook Plates or the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Mormonism is no different than any other religion...it is also based upon a mass delusion. However, what disturbs me most about Mormonism is the notion that ONLY the men are given priesthood, while the women are relegated to childrearing/household duties. There are NO WOMEN of import in the Mormon hierarchy. In this respect, I see plenty of parallels with the paternalistic Taliban (short of killing people).

J

[Fridays Child]

19. As I've already said...

I'm not picking that bone, here.

Mitt Romney is courting the fundie right wing and would, in all likelihood, do their bidding, if elected. Thus, the issue is not whether you or I think that Mormonism is just as delusional as any other religion. The issue is that, because right wing fundies are a very powerful voting bloc, it behooves those of us who want to ensure that the United States does not become an extremist religious state, to divide and conquer by, among other things, pointing out to them that Mitt Romney is NOT "their kind."

I'm disappointed that some, here at DU (and I'm not saying you), have shown how unwilling they are to take off the gloves of political correctness for the sake of protecting our constitutional right to a secular government. If this is par for the course, we truly are hoist by our collective petard.

[tishaLA]

25. So much of that might have been written by a republicon

before the election of JFK.

[Fridays Child]

27. Like it or not...

...the neoconservative GOP knows how to influence huge voting blocs. We could learn from them, and I think it's worth taking off the gloves of political correctness, when necessary, and fighting for the future of this country.

Unlike the neocons, however, I don't think that we need to venture off the truth reservation to get the job done. And, because Mitt Romney has put faith on the table for discussion, the facts of his religion are fair game.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Atman]

21. Of all the Republics running, the Mormon is the only one with just one wife

I think Gulliani wins the prize for most wives. These bunch of assclowns are the world's biggest hypocrites.

.

[AzDar]

24. Sure the batshit-crazy rituals are enough to give one pause regarding

the Mormon Church...
but, wait! there's more: My Mormon Mother-in-Law told me that her 'Bishop' 'advised' the Congregation on how to vote in the 2004 election. "Heavenly Father guides his choice" (or some such shit) was how she phrased it.
Either way, I don't believe for a second that Morbots can keep their religion out of their politics which, imnsho, makes Mitt.. unfit.

[Arugula Latte]

28. As far as I'm concerned, all cults -- whether mainstream Xtian or Mormon or whatever --

espouse nonsense.

A pox on all organized superstition.

Rational thought and facts trump silly myths and fantasies and fairy tales. I don't care how long people have believed this b.s. about the divinity of some dude from Bethlehem or Nazareth of whatever -- 2,000 years is a blink of an eye in the Earth's 6 billion-year existence. It's all so utterly laughable.

[Fridays Child]

36. Agreed.

Would you agree that the right wing fundamentalist movement in this country represents a powerful voting bloc and, as such, is a threat to our constitutionally guaranteed secular democracy?

[Arugula Latte]

37. I do.

They are imposing their religious nuttiness in all aspects of our public policy. They are directly affecting things like contraceptive choices and medical research, and they are behind the movement to deny equal protection under the law to my friends who are gay (to name just a few examples).

[Fridays Child]

40. Again, I agree.

Some here (I'm not saying you) seem to want to treat Mitt Romney's particular form of religious extremism with kid gloves because it would be politically incorrect, in their view, to cite the facts associated with it.

But I think that the theft of the rights of my fellow Americans, by religious extremists, is far more politically incorrect than examining an issue of which the candidate, himself, has invited scrutiny.

[Arugula Latte]

43. Amen (pardon the phrasing)

I get sick of being shushed both here on DU and elsewhere when I speak about religion's corrosive role. People seem to think you can't criticize anything remotely tagged as "Faith." Well, frankly, I have no respect for faith. As Twain said: "Faith is believing things you know aren't so." On the other hand, yes, I do believe people are free to believe and practice their religion, as long as they respect the separation of church and state in the electoral, judicial, and educational systems. In the past two decades, the religious extremists have become emboldened and have broken down those walls. I am thankful for anybody who fights back, like Walter Cronkite:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2744106

[Fridays Child]

44. You're preaching to the choir. Talk about phrasing!

Religious idioms are as pervasive as they are descriptive. :)

[philosophie_en_rose]

33. The Right Wing fundies already know about the LDS church.

No one is more obsessed with the inner workings of other people's business than right wing fundies.

It seems unnecessary to pick at someone for being LDS. The fundies already hate what they hate. Why add something else?

And there is so much about Romney that could be attacked, why his religion?

[Fridays Child]

39. Because he's courting the fundie right and because he put his religion on the table.

Evidently, though, some here, feel that it's improper to address it. :eyes:

[Czolgosz]

41. Do you REALLY find the beliefs of the Mormons more strange that the beliefs of any other Christians?

Sometimes we ridicule other religions: we scoff at the ancient Greek and Roman pantheists for all their "crazy" gods, we mock the Norse "myths," we poke fun at the Mormons, etc.

But in the end, are any of these beliefs any more strange than mainstream middle-American Protestant Christianity? If you want to pick an element of any faith, you can subject it to close scrutiny and make it look foolish.

Ask yourself, why do people tell their kids that there is a "tooth fairy" and go so far as manufacturing phony evidence in the form of coins under a pillow to support that story?

Why do people tell their kids that there is a "Santa Clause" and go so far as manufacturing phony evidence in the form of gifts around a Christmas tree to support that story?

Why do people tell their kids about a baby stork?

People perpetuate a myth about a tooth fairy because losing a tooth can be a slightly bloody and painful event for kids at a young age where that is scary. We tell kids a story to distract them from the pain and the blood and the fear.

People perpetuate a myth about Santa Claus out of a sense of cultural tradition and also because it promotes good behavior to allow the kids to believe that an all seeing being knows whether they are good or bad and will defy the laws of physics to magically reward them for being good.

We tell kids about the baby stork because people naturally have a yearning to know where they have come from and sometimes we don't think they are ready for the graphic truth.

I'm not faulting anyone for any of these practices or beliefs. I put coins under my kids pillows and scatter presents around the Christmas tree and take my kids to church every Sunday. But to pretend that someone's religious faith is a loony cult while promoting another set beliefs based on faith as a respectable religion is just simple prejudice.

[Fridays Child]

42. You have completely missed the point.

I won't reiterate here because my responses in this thread have already more than adequately elucidated my position. Read them, if you're interested.

[Czolgosz]

47. I have read all of your responses, and I'm not so sure who's completely missed to point.

[Fridays Child]

48. Trust me...

...it's you. :eyes:

[Radical Activist]

69. One could talk about the "magic" rosary.

Its easy to make any religion sound bizarre and cultish to those who are unfamiliar with it.

[Fridays Child]

89. Exactly.

That is the point. And if publicizing such facts has the effect of fatally dividing a huge right wing voting bloc--one, I might add, whose political influence threatens the most basic human rights of many Americans--mission accomplished, so to speak.

[Radical Activist]

90. I guess someone who is otherwise progressive

could also get elected by calling black people niggers and demagogue about racial prejudices instead of religious ones. That was common in America for too many decades. It was wrong then, just as what you're doing is wrong now. Stoking prejudices for political gain represents the worst tradition in American politics. Turn back from this ugly path now.

[Fridays Child]

93. How dare you compare me to anyone who calls black people...

..."niggers?" I have maligned no one by stating facts. You, however, have most certainly maligned me. I suggest that you turn back from this ugly path, now.

[WindRavenX]

46. soo...are we ok with Reid then?

NT

[Fridays Child]

52. Are right wing fundies considering voting for Harry Reid because he...

...supports forced childbirth? Is he against the right of the disabled and the chronically ill to benefit from embryonic stem cell research? Does he not support the right of GLBT Americans to enter into marriages, or civil unions, with full benefits? When Harry Reid places the tenets of his religious belief system--whatever it may be--above our constitutional right to a secular democracy, his religion will be a big problem for me.

In the meanwhile, in courting right wing fundie voters, Mitt Romney indicates that his religious beliefs may, indeed, trump the Constitution, Furthermore, he has invited public scrutiny of his religion.

[WindRavenX]

62. You're the one that's using religion as a disqualifying factor

So I find this entire debate to be entirely disingenuous.

The same things said of the Catholic Church were said of JFK.

Bash Romney all you want--he's an asshole and is a symbol of racism, misogyny, homophobia, etc.

But bashing an entire faith is out of line.

[Fridays Child]

103. Hello.

Did it occur to you that his racism, misogyny, and homophobia might all be deeply rooted in his religious beliefs? Further, he has invited the public to learn about his religion. That makes it a fair topic for examination, no matter how much discomfort it causes you.

I have simply stated facts. That you would characterize such as "bashing," proves that you're the disingenuous party to this conversation.

[Radical Activist]

63. Does anything the right wing do

justify you spreading false information and prejudice against ANY religion? I don't think it does.

[Fridays Child]

100. Of course not but you already know that...

...I have not spread any false information.

[ikojo]

49. The baptism of the dead is not BS

The Mormon Church got into trouble with the ADL about a decade or so ago when it was dicovered Mormons were baptizing Jews who died in the Holocaust.

http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html

he Mormon/Jewish Controversy: This web page chronicles the controversy between members of the Jewish faith and of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons have been criticized in recent years for the practice of posthumously baptizing thousands of deceased Jews (among them Holocaust victims) and those of other faiths. In their missionary zeal, Mormons continue their wrongful baptism of Jews, attempting to convince people (dead or alive) from other religions to convert.

In a hundred years who will know the true facts about you and your heritage? Who will know anything about your family? No one. Very possibly no one! Because in a hundred years the record will apparently show that they were allegedly converts without making clear that it was by no act of their own.

Mormons Hijack Dead or Alive Jewish Souls In The Name Of Christ

By Bernard I. Kouchel

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (often referred to as the LDS or Mormons) has spent millions of dollars microfilming, indexing and cataloging nearly every document known to man from every country on earth -- including millions of Jewish records. Church members are encouraged to find the names of ancestors to baptize by proxy, which they believe gives the dead the opportunity to embrace the faith in the afterlife. A hands-on proxy baptism ceremony, called an ordinance, takes place in a Mormon temple, and includes full immersion to wash away sins and commence church membership. It is supposedly performed, commentators say, for people who had believed in Christ, but had not had a chance to be baptized. To be baptized is to publicly acknowledge one's faith in Christ as Savior and Lord. Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously.

[Fridays Child]

53. Yes, this is one reason why Americans of every religion...

...might want to become more well-acquainted with Mormonism.

[demrabble]

68. Yes.. and DId You Know that Others Are Baptized Without Consent?

Did you also know that thousands -- literally thousands -- of people are baptized every year without their consent?

Some denominations -- including Roman Catholics -- baptize infants!!

They actually baptize people without their consent!

It is important to get the word out about all these religions that baptize people without their consent!

[Marrah_G]

76. ummm so?

It's like a stranger trying to will me to like spinach.... just because they want it doesn't make it so. If they want to believe they can make dead people into mormons who does it hurt? Wouldn't it be better to focus on the treatment of women or something that has an actual effect on its victim?

As for Catholics? I was baptized as a Catholic, it makes little difference to me as an adult Wiccan and I hold no ill will to my parents or the church. It wasn't an act malice it was an act of love and tradition on their part, and I can respect that.

[Fridays Child]

99. It probably matters to believers.

More importantly, though, the belief systems of presidential candidates should matter to everyone, if such beliefs threaten American civil liberties, for example. Apparently, however, some, here at DU, think that we should discuss the candidates' religious beliefs, only if we promise not to discuss the specifics.

I frankly don't care what others believe, as long as they don't threaten the rights of me and my fellow Americans who don't share their religious beliefs. But right wing Christian fundamentalists have every intention of destroying our rights, and any legitimate information I can disseminate that will divide them at the ballot box is fair.

[InvisibleTouch]

50. Here's a very interesting book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Ceremonies-Deborah-Laake/dp/0440217806/sr=1-1/qid=1172448060/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-5512430-4778318?ie=UTF8&s=books

Written by a woman who left the Mormon church, but before that point she describes her marriage, the ceremonies and rituals, the culture, the roles of men and women, the nature of the church, etc. - all the things "outsiders" aren't supposed to know. I read it some time ago.

To qualify: I have some good friends who are Mormons, and I don't think the Mormon beliefs and ceremonies are any more crazy than those of most other religions (that is, most of them make no sense to me personally, but it's none of my business what other people want to believe in, as long as they don't force it on me) - but the details sound strange to non-Mormons simply because one doesn't hear about them much. Worth a read, in any case.

[Fridays Child]

55. One of many good books on the topic.

I don't particularly care what people believe, either, until their beliefs threaten the constitutional rights of ANY American. Then, I'm bugged. And, much to the consternation of some here, I will happily point out to right wing fundies that Mitt is not as much like them as he hopes they will believe, when he courts their votes.

[WindRavenX]

67. The same has been said of Catholics

Really, this thread is just ridiculous.

[Fridays Child]

95. If you think...

...it's so ridiculous, why do you keep responding and kicking it to the top?

[Radical Activist]

57. DU shouldn't be a place for religious bigotry.

First, some of your statements about Mormonism are inaccurate. Second, anyone who believes in Jesus Christ has a right to call themselves a Christian, if they believe they are, even if they're different than the dominant Christian churches.

Anti-Mormon hate literature, movies and lecturers are its own small industry, mostly propped up by conservative protestant denominations. They knowingly spread lies and prejudice to counteract the Mormon missionary efforts. That kind of ignorance and bigotry has no place at DU.

[WindRavenX]

64. damn straight

This is sickening.

[Radical Activist]

Hey there

This is my second angry post denouncing someone at DU today...I'm on some kind of roll.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3131699&mesg_id=3133735

[WindRavenX]

66. yeah this site is getting whack

I'll be first to admit that the LDS has a shit ton of bad things, but so do all religions.

If the OP replaced "Mormon" with "Catholic" (or any religion), the thread would be locked.

[Radical Activist]

70. You would think

that people could stick to the truthfully odd things about Mormonism without exaggerating it. There's enough material there. Who knows.

[WindRavenX]

71. LOL for real

I could go on and on about my experiences in Utah and going to a Mormon service--that's real and sticks to the truth.

The underwear thing is real, but they do take it off to shower.

And really, what difference is there between a Mormon wearing underwear that they think is part of their faith and Catholics from carrying rosaries and a crucifix?

[Radical Activist]

73. Pretty much every world religion

has some kind of clothing or garment with religious significance. Mormons are no different. Calling it "magic" is insulting and moronic.

What's with that magic collar protestant ministers wear?

[Radical Activist]

65. dupe

[Fridays Child]

72. You're late. The political correctness brigade has already come and gone.

If you think that any of the statements in my OP are inaccurate, why don't you enumerate those? Maybe you're really more interested in muzzling free expression?

You may want to note that, in the view of agnostics, atheists, and secular humanists, it's Mormon missionaries who spread lies, just as all missionaries of every religion do. And factual information about Mormon practices, or that which you so disingenuously call ignorance and bigotry, absolutely has a place at DU--as long as DU values the Constitution, anyway.

[Radical Activist]

77. I'm with the "tell the damn truth" brigade.

You posted a string of claims about Mormonism, some of which are true, while others are false. Your only sources are a couple links to the front pages of antagonistic anti-Mormon sites. Sorry, you're the one spreading bullshit. YOU cite a credible source.

BTW, you're not an agnostic, atheist or secular humanist because you don't fit my definition of those terms. I can do that because, according to you, people aren't allowed to self-identify what their own belief system is.

[Fridays Child]

94. C'mon. You can do better than that.

I didn't self-identify, at all. And talk to an ex-Mormon. He or she will tell you that what I have stated is, indeed, true. In fact, much of what I've learned is from devout, practicing Mormons. I won't cite their names, however.

[NoodleyAppendage]

110. Please explain why men can only be in the priesthood. Sounds pretty bigoted to me...

Mormonism, like Catholisism, is a paternalistic religion in which the males are given dominion and special status over the females. This is a fact...not bigotry to point out. Sounds like the problem is with the religion and not with those who point out the hypocracy.

J

[demrabble]

59. This Is Important...Why?

The fact that a person believes in "magic underwear" and other things is important....why?

I thought religious intolerance died a long time ago.

Apparently, though, it still thrives.

[Fridays Child]

74. Nah. It's not important...

...as long as you don't care whether the next president nominates judges whose rulings will force women to bear children, prohibit the disabled and chronically ill from benefitting from embryonic stem cell research, and deny basic human and civil rights to GLBT Americans.

Nope, it's not the least bit important to know what belief system guides a candidate who is openly courting voters who are in favor of all of the above.

:nuke:

[WorldResident]

80. I'm wary of calling Mormonism a cult

I'll defend your right to call it that, but IMO it's as defendable as any other mainline religion. In fact, the Mormons do a much better job of taking care of their poor than the Southern Baptists do.

[Fridays Child]

83. Somebody once said that the only real difference between religions and cults...

...lies in the size of their bank accounts.

[Lurking Dem]

84. This OP is bigoted and disgusting.

As a Jew I have all too often faced religious bigotry, especially living as I do in the South.

I am reminded of a young man a few years back who was denied his rightfully earned Fellowship of Christian Athletes award because the FCA deemed that his being a Mormon meant he was not a Christian.

THAT was bigoted and disgusting too.

You don't have to like Mr. Romney and citing a list of his ills would be a fairly easy endeavor.

You don't have to like Mormonism, or any other religion for that matter, and you can likely list the reasons why you FEEL they are wrong.

But to say that people, however they observe, that believe in Jesus and that he died for their sins is not Christian is a horribly prejudiced stance to take.

[Fridays Child]

106. If, in your view, facts are bigoted and disgusting...

...that's your problem.

In the meanwhile, many Christians agree that, based upon what they deem to be relevant factors, Mormons are not practitioners of, or believers in, Christianity.

[Big Pappa]

88. Bullshit

Mainstream Mormons do not practice bigamy. Just like mainstream Baptists do not handle rattlesnakes. This is the biggest crock of shit I have seen all day. Romney has enough problems with all of his flip-flopping. We don"t need to go down this road.

[FreeState]

98. As a Mormon I find this whole thread offensive and bigoted

As a Mormon I find this whole thread offensive and bigoted. The OP is half truths at best. I do not have time or energy to debate this ad nausium, however if the board turns into a Mormon bashing fest I might as well leave, I expect better from so called "progressives".

Also I am a return missionary, guess what I did on my mission with the blessing of the church, took a bath in a tub. I also went swimming in the Mission Presidents swimming pool - mind you this pool is owned by the church.

Fridays Child - please refrain from speaking about others faith when you obviously do not know what you are speaking about.

[Fridays Child]

104. Half-truths...

That's an awfully apparent attempt at spin. And, as a Mormon, you know full well that the proscription regarding missionaries and swimming is a prevalent LDS superstition.

Nevertheless, I really am not concerned with restricting anyone's particular religious superstitions or practices, unless and until they supercede the constitutional rights of Americans. Unfortunately, toward that end, your wish to restrict my speech may yet come true.

[Momgonepostal]

108. Cut the drama

Your right to free speech doesn't mean others don't have the right to call you on the ridiculous and offensive things you say. Free speech does not mean "free pass."

[Fridays Child]

115. If you're offended, that's not my problem.

Deal with your own drama, dear.

[Momgonepostal]

107. thank you, I agree

When I was newer here, I used to jump on these types of thread and correct every incorrect point, but at some point it just became too much work.

Honestly, aren't there enough policy reasons not to vote for Romney? Was it any more relevent to bring up JFK's "magic" communion wafer or whatever?

[NoodleyAppendage]

111. Your religion is bigoted. Men are given special status. Segregated meetings. Etc.

No dice. As someone who knows the religion intimately, I know the facts. The fact is the tenets and practices of the LDS are bigoted towards women. Sure, sure, women are told that they have "special blessing" for being able to bear and care for children, but in truth they are given almost no input into the church hierarchy and NONE can be in the priesthood. This practice is bigoted. If you have a problem, I suggest you take it up with the Elders (all of whom are MALE).

J

[Momgonepostal]

113. Of the three meetings we attend on Sunday

only one is "segregated." The main meeting is not, the second sunday school is not, unless you count age segregation, since children are and teens go to age appropriate classes. The third is divided into men's and women's organizations, and teens and children also go to separate classes. Don't many churches have men's and women's meetings if not on Sunday, then at various times throughout the week? It has never occured to me to think of that as segregation. I don't need to sit next to my husband all day.

Your issue with the male dominated priesthood is also not limited to the LDS church. Again, would it have been relevant to the 1960 election to point out that JFK's church didn't let women hold the priesthood, therefore, he's a bad candidate?

[ToeBot]

112. I suppose this sort of pig-ignorant blather will work to the Dem's advantage

There are probably allot of republican fundamentalists who actually believe this idiocy. I'd like to think that Democrats, while perfectly willing to use it to their advantage, would at least be able to recognize the truth from all the bullshit, but that's probably asking too much. Carry on, just don't kid yourself that you occupy some sort of moral high ground.

[Ediacara]

116. Locking

From the DU Rules:

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view.

Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence.
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