you know they're going to keep doing this, right?

[ulysses]

By "this" I mean "caving", which deserves it's own set of quotation marks because they're not caving at all - they're only doing what the folks for whom they work tell them to do. And that ain't you or me.

They know you aren't going to do anything about it, too. What can you do? You don't have anywhere else to go.

[wildbilln864]

1. yep! nt

[ulysses]

4. what's funny

is that the party purity crowd will be laying low for a little while, as they always do after the more obvious traitorous displays by elected Dems. They won't ever address this.

[Zodiak]

12. well, I can try to be their surrogate

They will point out that the Dems who do this are mostly red-state Dems and therefore it is totally forgiveable because they are representing their constituency.

The only problem with that argument is that 60% of the country is dead-set against this regardless of location, and their premise has the underlying assumption that a red stater, when they vote for a Democrat, really wants a Republican. I submit that when a person votes for a Democrat, they expect one, but like many people in blue states, as well, they do not do their homework any further than looking at the party and the pretty face. They get hoodwinked into DLCers...and of course, no one really knows anyone's voting record unless they look it up. How many people do that?

In truth, it is the DLC....again. We have to get it into our heads that the DLC is a mole organization designed to do this very thing. The benefits are two-fold, one, the pro-business elites get their way every single time an issue comes up, and two, people tune out of politics because there is no difference between the parties. The DLC makes the Democrats look divided and spineless, and so the country's politics can remain firmly to the right in perpetuity. They take up leadership positions, and then proceed to choke this party to death.

This is probably the 30th major DLC-sponsored capitulation since Bush took office. How much more of this crap can we take?

[jgraz]

16. Look at Obama's success -- people just want leadership

Especially the hard-core Red-Staters. Most of the Rethug voters are SHEEP, pulled in by charismatic or authoritarian leaders. Look at how many of the idiots are flocking to Obama (not saying that's a bad thing, but they're drawn to the show, not the substance).

I've heard many, many hard-core Repugs say they'd have no problem voting for a liberal like Moynihan or Feingold or Wellstone who sticks to their guns (no pun intended). What they hate is weakness. And pandering. And cowardice.

And so do I.

[Zodiak]

17. As do I jgraz

I was raised in the South.....big red area. I shook off the red, but I have not shook off my disdain for cowardice. You stand up for what is right and damn the consequences!

I shames me that my party are a majority of spineless, mewling cowards.

Cowards and greedy assholes....that's what I get to choose from.

[tbyg52]

2. You nailed it

They are doing what they want, for whatever the reason.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Those of us who pay attention...

have known it since last spring.

[Junkdrawer]

5. As long as their bosses count the votes, we're fucked.

Start holding REAL elections and things will change. Not fast, but they will change.

[ulysses]

well, that and us actually

holding them accountable.

[AndyTiedye]

6. Blackmail Always Works

You have to assume they are monitoring every phone call and email going in and out of DC, as well as the Congresscritters' homes and local offices.
That is almost certainly the "other program" that was mentioned in Ashcroft's hospital conversations.

They are being blackmailed.

[ulysses]

7. consider occam's razor.

The simplest explanation for their behavior isn't that they're being blackmailed, but rather that they simply want to behave as they do.

[Zodiak]

15. You do not need to invoke the Razor

We need to stop all of this speculative nonsense. Their motives are meaningless and will forever be unknown to us. It amounts to arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

We can only deal with facts, and the facts are that they are not representing us at all. We have one legal tool as citizens...the vote. We only need to vote them out.

Putting politics into R's and D's is a fools game...it is far more complex than that. People need to get out of identity politics because it ends up making excuses for the inexcusable.

[ulysses]

24. fair point.

I would only add that it's already made excuses where none can be made.

[Arctic Dave]

21. 2 cents

I think the "Blackmail" thing is little too easy of a cop-out. As I have said before, even if it true that NSA is tapping you, at some point you should try to redeem yourself from whatever wrongs that you have committed. The only thing I'm seeing from these guys is pure cowardice.

[Zodiak]

27. Even if it were true, we would still have to vote them out

They are too compromised to represent us.

So it does not matter what is happening in their heads; our course of action is still the same.

[ulysses]

29. how far do we go with that?

Hell, people mounted a real challenge to Lieberman, and yet he remains.

[Zodiak]

39. Full-court press

DFA is doing a great job at nominating progressive Democrats to oust Bush-enabling Democrats. I recommend you join in their efforts, even if rhetorically only. This is an idea that must catch fire fast within the party...people need to be educated, even DUers, beyond identity politics.

Beyond that...we have to understand that electing Democrats is not going to get us there. The DLC will stack the deck....half of the Senate Dems are DLC and control the purse-strings (Schumer's DSCC is notorious for nominating DLCers...because Schumer takes money from them for business trips). As hard as it is for so many DUer to hear, we need to stop voting for them....even if that means a Republican gets the seat.

I know that is heresy to many, but it is for a good reason. The presence of the DLC makes the party look weak, divided, and cowardly...that puts a natural drag on our appeal to the electorate. If we win with DLCers, they will make us look like fools in the eyes of the People....look at what hell they have wrought since we have taken control of Congress! This will only pull the pundulum back to the Republicans again, and quickly. The only way around this is to not play their game...with the DLCers gone, the remains of the party can at least mount a more united defense and build from that. If done effectively with primary opponents, the damage to the party's power stature will be minimal, and,hopefully the less egregious DLCers will get the hint and retire/reform. Without primary challengers, it will be devastating...we will lose the majority, but it must be done, in my opinion.

Otherwise, we will slide into fascism...the game is rigged to only move in one direction.

[tnlefty]

8. Yep, disgusting isn't it, but all we need to do is elect more

democrats. The only thing that I can think of to do right now is discontinue my home phone (AT&T) and use cell phones only through Working Assets, now known as CREDO. I'll have no problem with making the call tomorrow to disconnect my phone and I will tell them that I don't do business with collaborators.

[ulysses]

9. how will more Dems help?

I'm being serious here. I'm all for a greater majority in both houses, but what do we really expect of it?

[tnlefty]

11. Well, isn't the 'elect more democrats' the excuse given for taking

impeachment off the table, for not aggressively going after Bush**Co about Iraq, war crimes, etc.? In other words, let's not make waves so that we can get a dem president in the White House, and the house and senate...so that...so that...?

[ulysses]

13. indeed.

Sorry if your previous post was tongue-in-cheek. :)

[tnlefty]

19. Actually I might refer to it more as 'nail in cheek'...

you know, when something makes one so angry as feeling like biting nails in two?

I'm just getting tired of making the decision about whether I want finishing nails, roofing nails, etc.! :hi:

[ulysses]

23. that's about the level of "choice" we have nowadays.

[Individualist]

10. That's what we heard prior to the '06 elections

Look how well that turned out.

[tnlefty]

14. Please see #11, and I'll add to that the Military Commissions Act

that apparently should've been easily done away with after the majority in '06, but that didn't seem to work out either. :hi:

[KG]

18. i was expecting a nader thread to appear.

always showed up in the past when the dems kneeled before their masters. :hi:

[ulysses]

22. LOL

Just callin' 'em like I sees 'em. :D

[Neo-wobbly]

20. Third Party

I'll throw my vote away before I give it to these clowns.

[Solon]

25. People are under the mistaken impression that the Democratic party is the party of liberals...

or the political left. This couldn't be further from the truth, the Democratic party is center-right, at best, and most of its elected members reflect this. These people didn't cave, they voted their own values, which are NOT the values of the left, period.

[ulysses]

34. no shit.

Time we stopped projecting values they obviously don't want to share upon them?

[Solon]

37. The other day I read the Democratic Party Platform...

Its in PDF format, and is from 2004, the most recent version. After looking through a lot of heavy rhetoric, slams of Bush etc. And actually sifting through to find out what they stand for, I found I agreed with them maybe 10% of the time. I guess I'm far too the left for them, but seriously, "market solutions" seems to be a favorite meme in that document. :wtf:

[ulysses]

40. that's the buzzword, certainly.

The candidate who I nominally support - Obama - seems fond of applying market solutions to education, which 1. is stupid in epic ways and 2. hits me where I live. But I'm going to support Clinton? Or McCain?

It's our fault for being progressive...

[Solon]

41. Heh, that's what sucks about the United States...

At this point in time, I support no Democrat for the primary. Both candidates, as far as I can tell, are practically identical, policy wise, being center-right candidates. I'll vote the Democratic nominee in the GE, but I'll bitch about it. Its just damage control, the Democrats aren't as bad as the Repukes, so I vote Democratic when I can. I hate it, with so much passion, I'm thinking of leaving for saner pastures, but I can't do shit about it right now.

[Mnemosyne]

46. Google branding. Argh! n/t

[leftofthedial]

26. what time is American Idol on?

isn't 24 great?

[ulysses]

42. precisely. n/t

[salin]

28. true, and so, so depressing.

[ulysses]

31. good to see you, my friend.

:loveya: Wish it was in a happier thread.

[salin]

36. likewise... great to see you

and misery loves company... :loveya:

What sucks - is I know that these folks are better than the rightwingrubberstampcongress - but at times like these it seems like... so what? :cry:

[ulysses]

38. yeah, I know.

Sort of like how double pneumonia is better than lung cancer, right?

[salin]

43. nah something more insidious....

something that lies dormant giving minor chronic problems - but is malicious to the body in the long run - compared to a fast moving agonzing form of cancer.

[spanone]

30. congress needs a purging of both houses and both sides of the isle imho

[Prophet 451]

32. Of course

The system is dominated by party politics and money.

But I'm a Brit, I can do even less to impact the situation than Americans.

[ulysses]

35. honestly, I don't know

that you have any less impact than we do.

[Individualist]

33. Until people stop rewarding enablers with votes, nothing will change.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

44. K&R n/t

[scarletwoman]

45. Yes, they'll keep doing this. The question is, will WE keep doing the same thing?

I'll tell you one thing, I refuse to concede that I have nowhere else to go.

I fully intend to go my own way, and bring as many along as I can.

sw

[ulysses]

50. heresy!! strumpet!!

;-)

[scarletwoman]

51. You calling me a heretical strumpet?

I can live with that. :D

:loveya:
sw

[ulysses]

53. it's a term of endearment.

:D :loveya: too!

[scarletwoman]

55. And I accept it proudly!

:hug:

sw

[NuttyFluffers]

47. 2 amusing options (but i'm deeply jaded)

1. vote in as many democrats as possible and watch whether 'the curtain' gets fully pushed aside exposing the wizards underneath -- or not.

2. abstain and let the impending slide into depression go full steam ahead with republicans in charge of the helm. hope they then get as much of the blame as possible, and from the ashes such conservative ideas are banished utterly from having a say in the reconstruction.

either way the destruction must come first. either the destruction of a carefully crafted illusion/perception crashes down, or the destruction of this entire country's framework crashes down. from the ashes something better might arise.

but which is better? suicide of your last remnants of hope? or suicide of your last refuges of infrastructure stability?

tough choice, but maybe it is best to call back Pandora's hand and see whether our hope has any foundation. yes, we've been betrayed time and again, and it would be a display of hope over experience. but pushing for this last democratic victory might finally disillusion enough people into waking up -- or it might be our very own answer to our prayers.

me? i watch the plight of humanity with bemused interest...

[Solly Mack]

48. Yes

I know

[eridani]

49. Yeah we do. Check out Wynn vs Edwards in MD

We can do more of this, you know.

[Swamp Rat]

52. Oh yes, I can go other places.

But for now, I'd rather stay and FIGHT!

[LWolf]

54. `Yes, I know.

I can go independent, which is likely. I can go 3rd party. I can stay home.

None of which will bring the change I wish to see, unless masses are doing the same.

Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that anyone do any of the above.