OUTRAGEOUS! FBI Deputizes businesses to spy on Americans---have permission to “shoot to kill”

[AikidoSoul]

in the event of martial law!

This is beyond outrageous! This administration is becoming like the NAZIS did when they consolidated power. This has to be completely illegal in every way. For Christs sake -- what is happening to our country?!



http://www.progressive.org/mag_rothschild0308

Exclusive! The FBI Deputizes Business
http://www.progressive.org/mag_rothschild0308
By Matthew Rothschild, February 7, 2008

Today, more than 23,000 representatives of private industry are working quietly with the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security. The members of this rapidly growing group, called InfraGard, receive secret warnings of terrorist threats before the public does—and, at least on one occasion, before elected officials. In return, they provide information to the government, which alarms the ACLU. But there may be more to it than that. One business executive, who showed me his InfraGard card, told me they have permission to “shoot to kill” in the event of martial law.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

To join, each person must be sponsored by “an existing InfraGard member, chapter, or partner organization.” The FBI then vets the applicant. On the application form, prospective members are asked which aspect of the critical infrastructure their organization deals with. These include: agriculture, banking and finance, the chemical industry, defense, energy, food, information and telecommunications, law enforcement, public health, and transportation.

FBI Director Robert Mueller addressed an InfraGard convention on August 9, 2005. At that time, the group had less than half as many members as it does today. “To date, there are more than 11,000 members of InfraGard,” he said. “From our perspective that amounts to 11,000 contacts . . . and 11,000 partners in our mission to protect America.” He added a little later, “Those of you in the private sector are the first line of defense.”

He urged InfraGard members to contact the FBI if they “note suspicious activity or an unusual event.” And he said they could sic the FBI on “disgruntled employees who will use knowledge gained on the job against their employers.”


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


The ACLU is not so sanguine.

“There is evidence that InfraGard may be closer to a corporate TIPS program, turning private-sector corporations—some of which may be in a position to observe the activities of millions of individual customers—into surrogate eyes and ears for the FBI,” the ACLU warned in its August 2004 report The Surveillance-Industrial Complex: How the American Government Is Conscripting Businesses and Individuals in the Construction of a Surveillance Society.

InfraGard is not readily accessible to the general public. Its communications with the FBI and Homeland Security are beyond the reach of the Freedom of Information Act under the “trade secrets” exemption, its website says. And any conversation with the public or the media is supposed to be carefully rehearsed.

“The interests of InfraGard must be protected whenever presented to non-InfraGard members,” the website states. “During interviews with members of the press, controlling the image of InfraGard being presented can be difficult. Proper preparation for the interview will minimize the risk of embarrassment. . . . The InfraGard leadership and the local FBI representative should review the submitted questions, agree on the predilection of the answers, and identify the appropriate interviewee. . . . Tailor answers to the expected audience. . . . Questions concerning sensitive information should be avoided.”
One of the advantages of InfraGard, according to its leading members, is that the FBI gives them a heads-up on a secure portal about any threatening information related to infrastructure disruption or terrorism.

The InfraGard website advertises this. In its list of benefits of joining InfraGard, it states: “Gain access to an FBI secure communication network complete with VPN encrypted website, webmail, listservs, message boards, and much more.”

InfraGard members receive “almost daily updates” on threats “emanating from both domestic sources and overseas,” Hershman says.

“We get very easy access to secure information that only goes to InfraGard members,” Schneck says. “People are happy to be in the know.”

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In return for being in the know, InfraGard members cooperate with the FBI and Homeland Security. “InfraGard members have contributed to about 100 FBI cases,” Schneck says. “What InfraGard brings you is reach into the regional and local communities. We are a 22,000-member vetted body of subject-matter experts that reaches across seventeen matrixes. All the different stovepipes can connect with InfraGard.”

Schneck is proud of the relationships the InfraGard Members Alliance has built with the FBI. “If you had to call 1-800-FBI, you probably wouldn’t bother,” she says. “But if you knew Joe from a local meeting you had with him over a donut, you might call them. Either to give or to get. We want everyone to have a little black book.”

This black book may come in handy in times of an emergency. “On the back of each membership card,” Schneck says, “we have all the numbers you’d need: for Homeland Security, for the FBI, for the cyber center. And by calling up as an InfraGard member, you will be listened to.” She also says that members would have an easier time obtaining a “special telecommunications card that will enable your call to go through when others will not.”

This special status concerns the ACLU.

“The FBI should not be creating a privileged class of Americans who get special treatment,” says Jay Stanley, public education director of the ACLU’s technology and liberty program. “There’s no ‘business class’ in law enforcement. If there’s information the FBI can share with 22,000 corporate bigwigs, why don’t they just share it with the public? That’s who their real ‘special relationship’ is supposed to be with. Secrecy is not a party favor to be given out to friends. . . . This bears a disturbing resemblance to the FBI’s handing out ‘goodies’ to corporations in return for folding them into its domestic surveillance machinery.”

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

“In case something happens, everybody is ready,” says Norm Arendt, the head of the Madison, Wisconsin, chapter of InfraGard, and the safety director for the consulting firm Short Elliott Hendrickson, Inc. “There’s been lots of discussions about what happens under an emergency.”

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This business owner says he attended a small InfraGard meeting where agents of the FBI and Homeland Security discussed in astonishing detail what InfraGard members may be called upon to do.

“The meeting started off innocuously enough, with the speakers talking about corporate espionage,” he says. “From there, it just progressed. All of a sudden we were knee deep in what was expected of us when martial law is declared. We were expected to share all our resources, but in return we’d be given specific benefits.” These included, he says, the ability to travel in restricted areas and to get people out.

But that’s not all.

“Then they said when—not if—martial law is declared, it was our responsibility to protect our portion of the infrastructure, and if we had to use deadly force to protect it, we couldn’t be prosecuted,” he says.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[rockymountaindem]

1. Kick n/t

[BadgerKid]

2. It would explain a few things

1. why trained military troops are kept abroad
2. the Republican resistance to background checks
3. increasing secrecy, obscurity, etc.

[AikidoSoul]

6. How do military troops kept abroad explain anything here?

Items 2 and 3 in your post I get... but not no 1.

[TheMadMonk]

15. Because US troops are far too likely to be loyal to the nation...

...and not the government if/when the shitstorm erupts.

[Maccagirl]

3. Be afraid people

Be very afraid. And watch what you post on DU.
No sarcasm is this post. I am beyond sad about this.

[lonestarnot]

5. Very afraid!

[peacetalksforall]

4. I am sick. Is this an acceptable source for DU?

Does anyone else think the ACLU is soft on this? I am extremely disapointed.

Where is this in the Constitution? Where is Congress?

This is a unilateral move in an across the board move against our rights.

They are saying we have no rights.

If I were still a corporate employee, I would stop talking at the proverbial water cooler. Don't talk about anything except shopping, sports, serials, marital gossip, celebrities.

The spy industry that they are trying to instigate is the end of the Constitution.

I think we should start asking for a Martial Law DU Forum so that all of the stuff about martial law that is scattered throughout can be seen in its entirity. Is that something dangerous to ask for? How far is this ownership of up and over us going to go?

Part of this is 98% control over us and 2% fear that this country is going to be retaliated against for our waterboarding, pillaging, and plundering - within our own borders. Well, those who authorized the deaths and torture should be targeted, not us.

America is now all about killing, stealing, lying, and controlling as far as most of our leaders are concerned - and the barons/corporations/societies they report to.

[slackmaster]

10. Relax, higher class, nothing is fucked here

Nobody's getting a blanket license to kill in the event of martial law.

The existence of InfraGard doesn't take anything away from you. The only Constitutional issue is that technically Congress should be handling this under their authority to discipline, arm, and train the militia. It's really not within the Executive branch's authority to do it on their own.

[AikidoSoul]

13. You are assuming what...? The FBI's and DHS's innocent motives to spy on American citizens?

FBI Director Robert Mueller told InfraGard members to contact the FBI if they “note suspicious activity or an unusual event.”

Then he said they could sic the FBI on “disgruntled employees who will use knowledge gained on the job against their employers.”

What does that mean?

What about disgruntled employees who are whistleblowers?

Is this set up for the public good -- or for the corporate good?

IMHO this kind of spying activity is extremely dangerous and opens the door wide, wide, wide for misuse and abuse.

And on a personal level. How many co-workers, employers, neighbors, relatives, etc., do you know are nuts enough, mean enough, or hateful enough to make trouble for some innocent person that they don't like?

Remember -- more than 1/2 of the people in Guantanamo are innocent of any terrorist activities and yet they are there because back in their own communities their neighbors were rewarded with money to rat on "terrorists". That was easy enough. Some of them picked people they didn't like and off they went, never to be heard from again.

You seem very cavalier about his. You apparently don't see the fascist foundation and potential enormous danger of such a program.

And martial law could be declared at any time by Bush whenever he sees fit as he has set it up that way and in advance has established his new authorities if that should occur. BushCo has set up authority to use the military and National Guard to enforce the law against the public (goodbye Posse Comitatus), and will not even have to consult with Governor's of states when ordering the NG to cross state lines.

Allow me to address your second post below this one where you say that article author Matt Rothschild "needs to check the batteries in his Bullshit Detector" when he wrote about the business executive who showed him his InfraGard card and told him that during martial law that InfraGard members have permission to “shoot to kill”. You say that ..."The guy was obviously talking out his ass, just saying something to fuck with Matt. He didn't even bother to try to get a confirmation or denial from an authoritative source."

That is your opinion but please answer this:

If you were the author of the article -- just who would you call to verify the stated authority to shoot civilians in the event of martial law? Where could you find something in writing that established the lawfulness or unlawfulness of that claim? And if someone from InfraGard told you they were assured of their right to shoot without fear of reprisal --- would you ignore that and not include that in your article?

Have you thought about Blackwater and how they are not prosecutable for many of the crimes they commit?

Do you notice any similatities here?

Any patterns perhaps?

Your identity card shows you are from SanDiego and that you collect small arms as a hobby -- and that's cool. It suggests that you like to surround yourself with weapons and protection.

Please remember that many of us think of freedom as being something that means less government power swooping down on you every minute of every f....ing day.

Many of us don't even need guns to feel safe.

Final question. How would you be able to investigate this InfraGard organization except through interviews of InfraGard card holders given the stringent controls of every official word that comes out about their activities?! Their activities are apparently secret -- is that o.k. with you, given that it affects the public and is in effect a policing force? Is it also o.k. with you that you are not allowed to even access information about this program through the Freedom of Information Act?

[slackmaster]

14. It seems to me the best way to "investigate" InfraGard would be to join up

That would enable someone to quickly determine what is really going on, what members are actually being told.

One person can keep a secret. More than one person cannot.

People are already empowered to report suspicious activity to the FBI or other agencies. The only thing that seems special about this InfraGard deal is the vetting process to qualify for access to information that isn't even classified. That's screwy, and Congress should be looking into it rather than sitting on their asses.

If you were the author of the article -- just who would you call to verify the stated authority to shoot civilians in the event of martial law?

I'd start by calling my Congresswoman, Susan Davis. I'd also visit the San Diego chapter - http://www.infragard.net/sandiego.htm - and perhaps apply for membership myself.

And on a personal level. How many co-workers, employers, neighbors, relatives, etc., do you know are nuts enough, mean enough, or hateful enough to make trouble for some innocent person that they don't like?

Lots of them. I recently had a teenager try to make trouble for me by making false reports to a government agency. The existence of InfraGard does not change the potential for that kind of thing happening.

Your identity card shows you are from SanDiego and that you collect small arms as a hobby -- and that's cool. It suggests that you like to surround yourself with weapons and protection.

Bad assumption. My firearms are primarily for investment purposes and amusement. Locked up in my safe at home, they don't provide me with any protection.

[AikidoSoul]

16. What sillies we are, worrying about community spies like that. Surely stuff like that only happens

in comic books

[slackmaster]

21. Please get back to us after you've submitted your application to join InfraGard

Then you can confirm or deny the part about an apparently unlimited license to kill, or you can tell us they rejected your application.

I want to see a picture of your membership card too. (Redacted as needed.)

:hi:

[peacetalksforall]

25. So that's your role - solicit spies who will carry a hidden gun to their job even though if

they work for a mundane company - and before, during, or after the work day - they have access to information on you or me?

[slackmaster]

28. No

That's not right, and I think it's inappropriate for you to post such an unsupported speculation about me on this board. Actually it looks more like a back-handed personal attack than anything else. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and go with it just being a poorly formulated opinion. Or perhaps the result of paranoia.

I've been very open about my positions and motives since I've been posting here.

[slackmaster]

7. Matt Rothschild needs to check the batteries in his Bullshit Detector

...One business executive, who showed me his InfraGard card, told me they have permission to “shoot to kill” in the event of martial law....

The guy was obviously talking out his ass, just saying something to fuck with Matt. He didn't even bother to try to get a confirmation or denial from an authoritative source.

[lpbk2713]

8. Care to join InfraGard?

Apparently they'll take applications from anyone .... Link: http://www.infragard.net/membership/

I got some InfraGard snips from MetaFilter .... Link: http://www.metafilter.com/68943/InfraGard

Do a Google Search on InfraGard. It will turn up some surprising and scary shit.

I'm thinking 1984 was slow in arriving ... but it's here.

Our country is polarizing more with each passing day.

[slackmaster]

9. The Astute Reader will note that enumerated categories include public sector people

Like national parks and icons, law enforcement, government, water, etc. Not just "corporate".

I wonder if they'd accept me as Block Captain of the South Park Neighborhood Watch Society?

As I stated on the other thread for this, the only problem I see with it is the vetting process to get in on the data feed. Since the information is NOT classified, it belongs to the people and should be available to all citizens who aren't incarcerated.

[AikidoSoul]

11. It's not just the secrecy

and the fact that this concept can be sold with what appears to be an innocent wrapping.

Just think about how 23,000 plus freepers would use their power to report on the goings-on in their communities.

There is more than just the secrecy problem than is the problem.

[TheMadMonk]

20. Try reading it again. The "privileged" dataflow is bi-directional.

“On the back of each membership card,” Schneck says, “we have all the numbers you’d need: for Homeland Security, for the FBI, for the cyber center. And by calling up as an InfraGard member, you will be listened to.” She also says that members would have an easier time obtaining a “special telecommunications card that will enable your call to go through when others will not.”

(my emphasis)

In other words identify yourself as a Fingerman/Brownshirt and your uncorroborated word will be given special credence.

And if/when "That Day" comes who gets to sat who did what to whom? You can bet it won't be just the phone lines that get co-opted for national defense.

[slackmaster]

22. I think you should apply for membership too

Please sign up so you can let us know what it's really all about.

I'll tell you this, based on my rather limited experience in law enforcement:

You'll be given the privilege of seeing some raw intel and analysis that is highly speculative, and it will be presented to you as such with all kinds of caveats. Also treated to some hypothetical and even paranoid-sounding analyses of possible threats as well as known ones. Most of what they tell you will turn out to be unfounded, little of any will be of any conceivable use to you. A lot of it will be tedious. And you will be very surprised.

[TheMadMonk]

24. Bit difficult from this side of the Pacific mate..

And if you are trying to be reassuring, I should tell you, that you're not doing a good job of it. Not a good job at all.

The average Joe, a) wouldn't know a caveat if it bit him on the arse, and b) tends to ignore such qualifications, even when they are drummed in with a ball peen hammer between the eyes. He will pick up on the bullet point "conclusions" (hypothetical, paranoid, or fact) and dismiss the rest as something for someone "higher up" to worry about.

Studies have shown that around 60% of ordinary (entirely unindoctrinated) people can be led to do the most horrific (or simply utterly ridiculous) things with considerable ease. You can try it yourself with a friend. Just stand anywhere busy with pedestrians and together stare fixedly at the sky. From a purely behavioural POV the "Nuremberg Defense" IS valid. It doesn't excuse. It doesn't absolve. However it DOES explain. AND IT DOES SOUND A KLAXON WARNING FOR WHAT MIGHT ALL TOO EASILY HAPPEN.

It does not matter how pure the motives behind setting something like this up might be, (and I hold absolutely no illusions in that regard, given the climate in the US and past examples of such "programs" from Tierra Del Fuego to Nova Zemlya) just a handful of individuals can turn the kid next door into a monster and life into hell.

I also note that you failed to address my point about information being fed upwards along the Infraguard chain.

[slackmaster]

29. I have a degree in psychology

I am familiar with the Milgram study and research that flowed from its initially shocking result.

I also note that you failed to address my point about information being fed upwards along the Infraguard chain.

It's quite normal for law enforcement agencies to maintain lists of people whom they consider to be more reliable as sources of information than are random members of the general public.

[TheMadMonk]

49. One hopes you're also aware of the real world example in the...

...McDonalds stripsearch hoaxer.

What of the many jackbooted wannabes who sign up to be private security guards, mall cops, prison guards, bootcamp supervisors, etcetera. This site is replete with reference to them. How often does it turn out that such individuals failed to make it into the police force on stability grounds? How frightening is it, when we realise just how low that bar must be set, given the real cop horror stories that also make it onto these pages with depressing regularity?

Before you go calling me a cop hater, you might like to know that I'm one of the ones around here that often defends the police when these stories crop up. If there is room to give them the benefit of the doubt I argue that it must be given. However there is not much room for that when you watch a woman being forcibly stripped naked, or a quadriplegic being dumped from his wheelchair.

To a large extent Infraguard volunteers are going include those rejected wannabe coppers. If someone gives these people orders which should not be followed, what do you think the chances are that they will actually do the right thing?

If Infraguard was an isolated program, I might not be so worried. However, in the context of Homeland Security, Total Information Awareness (or whatever it's being called this week), the blanket wiretapping of the entire nation, corralling of protesters into "Free Speech Zones", Blackwater and shoot to kill orders on US soil, and innumerable other excesses, the likelihood of Infraguard existing solely for its stated purpose is very very low.



Yes, law enforcement agencies do indeed keep "stables" of informants. They manage them with all sorts of very exacting checks and balances and very careful oversight. AND they still get burnt. They still they make mistakes, Mistakes that kill innocent people.

"Flash your card to be believed" frightens the hell out of me. In ordinary circumstances the FBI might well vet such information just as they would that from any other informant. However the FBI is not going to be the only agency receiving this information. And the circumstances under which Infraguard is intended (at least in part) to operate are anything but ordinary.

Taken as a part of the jackbooted thuggery which has become the norm in the USA, Infraguard all too easily has the terrifying potential to become yet another instrument of fascism in a country which already has far too many such instruments.

[slackmaster]

51. InfraGard doesn't issue "orders" of any kind to its members

In 12 years of operation, it has never done anything of the kind.

See reply #50 for information gotten directly from a long-time member.

[TheMadMonk]

53. So you're also OK with DHS, TSA, TIA, NSA, etc, etc?

In 12 years of operation martial law has not been declared.

Further, statements of purpose may well not be "orders" of the "do this now" variety, but they most certainly are directives, defining how the organsisation and it's members are expected to act in a "national emergency".


OK. I've read your #50. So what? The problem is not what Infraguard is now. The problem is what it could all too easily become under circumstances in the future. And as I've said if you actually read what I wrote, in isolation there is nothing wrong with it. It might even be a positive thing, but taken as a part of the larger tapestry I also mentioned, it has the potential to do great harm to the people of America.

Virtually every so called protection this Administration has enacted has either directly harmed its nation's people or has the potential to harm them. The beneficiaries of these "protections" have almost invariably been the wealthy, corporate entities and governmental bodies who's interests are demonstrably not in the best interest of the people.

"I pointed him to the Rothschild article. He laughed, and told me that at no point has InfraGard ever stated or implied that members would be immune to criminal prosecution for any kind of crime they committed, whether the country under martial law or not."

Carte blanche shoot to kill? No. Kill to defend property, or with a little sophistry, kill to defend persons in the vicinity of said property? Most definitely, in at least some jurisdictions. And in a state of national emergency/martial law, given the leniency with which cops and rent-a-cops are treated right now, all bets will be off.


I repeat. Alone Infraguard is not particularly problematical. In the context of the larger tapestry, it becomes a part of a very terrifying trend.

[slackmaster]

55. Red Herring - InfraGard consists of non-government people unlike TSA, etc.

Soon we will be out of the George W. Bush era, and things are bound to get better.

...Carte blanche shoot to kill? No. Kill to defend property, or with a little sophistry, kill to defend persons in the vicinity of said property? Most definitely, in at least some jurisdictions....

People almost everywhere in my country, including California where I live, already enjoy the right to use deadly force in defense of ourselves and others. As for defense of property, either you have that freedom or you don't depending on where you live. And as I said earlier, InfraGard membership does not convey any kind of special immunity.

The Rothschild article is, as one of the comments to it says, a load of bullcrap.

The problem is not what Infraguard is now. The problem is what it could all too easily become under circumstances in the future. And as I've said if you actually read what I wrote, in isolation there is nothing wrong with it. It might even be a positive thing, but taken as a part of the larger tapestry I also mentioned, it has the potential to do great harm to the people of America.

That potentiality hardly seems like justification for eliminating InfraGard. I'm confident that the checks and balances on power, plus our periodic clean sweeps of who is running the country, will keep it under control.

BTW I am going to submit my application for membership. Since I am now deeply involved in local politics as security officer for a significant campaign, the kind of information InfraGard provides could be very appropriate for my duties. I'm also going to apply for a concealed firearms permit.

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

12. The organizing techniques sound a LOT like the KKK's or the CCC's.

It's fascism. No doubt about it.

[fascisthunter]

52. .

[KatyaR]

17. Trust No One.

That's all you need to know.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

18. K&R

[malaise]

19. The privatizaion of security is on in earnest

Thank Reagan. Soon each corporation with enough money will have its own force.
Be afraid.

[slackmaster]

47. InfraGard was started in 1996

During the Clinton Administration.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

23. K&R n/t

[peacetalksforall]

26. kick, kick again and read between the lines - share with others and

analyze what it means.

Instaed of learning the truth about what our government is doing wrong through the media, they are adding secret operatives who will learn the truth for themselves and their own purposes.

So there - we now know the mettle of Mueller. Traitor of rights.

[slackmaster]

38. Operatives schmoperatives - Why don't you join InfraGard yourself?

Then you can tell us all about it.

[NoodleyAppendage]

27. KICK. OMG! This is scary sh*t. Thanks (sort of) for sharing the info. n/t

J

[lonestarnot]

30. kick

[benEzra]

31. **WHEN** martial law is declared????? WTF?

The meeting started off innocuously enough, with the speakers talking about corporate espionage,” he says. “From there, it just progressed. All of a sudden we were knee deep in what was expected of us when martial law is declared. We were expected to share all our resources, but in return we’d be given specific benefits.” These included, he says, the ability to travel in restricted areas and to get people out.

But that’s not all.

“Then they said when-—not if-—martial law is declared, it was our responsibility to protect our portion of the infrastructure, and if we had to use deadly force to protect it, we couldn’t be prosecuted,” he says.

WTF?

I guess that's why the corporatists consider it so damn important to take guns away from the little people?

[fascisthunter]

32. Hey Moderates.... Still Think We Aren't a Fascist Country? (nt)

[slackmaster]

36. Yes, and I'll tell you what's really scary about this story

How quick some of us are to take the article as factual and accurate without lifting a finger to verify for themselves what it says.

Please read the comments following the original linked article. A few of them are from people who say they are InfraGard members. You'll see mine there as well.

InfraGard doesn't give any special powers to corporate interests, or to individuals. It's a forum for sharing information. There's nothing remotely Fascist about it.

[fascisthunter]

43. Ja, Javul, slackmaster...

Nein danke...

[slackmaster]

44. Another personal attack in response to a contrary opinion?

Sorry, fascisthunter. I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

BTW I am of almost completely German ancestry. Many of my ancestors fled Europe to escape from oppression by fascists and other authoritarians. Your use of the German language in attempt to make me guilty by association says a lot, about you.

[fascisthunter]

45. Sorry... I Don't Buy Your BS Spin

and I don't walk lockstep for corpo America and this government as you would like me too. Does that insult you.... ja.

[slackmaster]

46. What BS spin?

I'm giving my frank and honest opinion about this. If you think I am BSing anyone, kindly hit the Alert button and let the moderators work it out.

Oh well, sometimes it's hard being a one-eyed man in the land of the blind.

BTW have YOU signed up for InfraGard membership yet?

[0007]

33. IOW no one has a chance at free enterprise anymore, 'eh?

Hitler would certainly be proud of junior and his little dick.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

34. EEK!!! Corporate finger-men! How scary is THAT?!!

:scared:

[havocmom]

35. It's fascism. Corporate entities having that kind of power over citizens

Mussolini would have loved it.

[slackmaster]

37. InfraGard doesn't give corporations any kind of special power over citizens

And please consider that a very large portion of us are part of corporations in one way or another. We work for corporations, spending a great deal of our time in their physical spaces. Corporate interests are indeed tied intimately with sensitive and critical aspects of our national infrastructure, because that's how our country is and has long been set up.

And InfraGard membership is NOT RESTRICTED to the private sector. Look at their Web site and membership application.

The Rothchild piece is nothing but yellow journalism. And a lot of DUers are gullible.

[havocmom]

54. ALL of us are under the boot of corporations

Did Blackwater not get permission to be judge, jury, executioner in NOLA?

Are policies and legislation not being written by corporations instead of elected representatives of the people?

Who is gullible?

Being part of a corporation is basically just the way most people earn the daily nut. Darned few are running corporations and making the mega bucks.

Being a cog in a huge, corporate structure is not being a part of a corporation. Cogs are ALL replaceable.

Corporations are buying political puppets who in turn let the corporations make the laws the pols rubber stamp.

Fascism.

[slackmaster]

56. Nice rant but it has nothing to do with InfraGard

You don't have to be a corporate leader, or even affiliated with a corporation, to join.

[slackmaster]

39. LOL! Look at how the Blogosphere has promoted Matthew Rothchild

The FBI has created a private entity, called “InfraGard”, which is authorized to shoot to kill during martial law. Insider, Matthew Rothschild, blows the whistle: “We were assured that if we were forced to kill someone to protect our infrastructure, there would be no repercussions,” the whistle blower says. “It gave me goose bumps. It chilled me to the bone.”...

He went from phony investigative journalist to InfraGard "insider" and "whistle-blower" in one fell swoop!

http://www.redpills.org/?p=854

:rofl:

[slackmaster]

40. Another one: Whistleblower says FBI Granting "Shoot to Kill" Rights to InfraGard

http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/02/whistleblower-says-fbi-granting-shoot.html

:rofl:

To join InfraGard, one must go through an extensive FBI vetting process, including background checks and verification processes as well as being personally recommended by someone within the organization...

Um, no, it's a very minimal background check (less than a few that I have gone through from the looks of the membership application), and the claim of a requirement that members be "personally recommended by someone within the organization" is completely unverified.

[slackmaster]

41. OOOOH! "Shoot to Kill" makes YouTube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1vIYgpCRpg&v3

Same unverified claims repeated over and over and over with no effort to confirm the outrageous ones. Just 15 minutes of fame for Matthew Rothchild.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

42. Oh say can you see,

Buy the corps infra red sights,
What so proudly we see,
Are the brown shirts so tight,

Please feel "free" to add your own verse...

[Kurovski]

48. Kick. (nt)

[slackmaster]

50. UPDATE: I checked with the Security Manager of the company I work for

He is in his sixth year as an InfraGard member. (We are the Private Sector of which many of you seem so disparaging.)

I pointed him to the Rothschild article. He laughed, and told me that at no point has InfraGard ever stated or implied that members would be immune to criminal prosecution for any kind of crime they committed, whether the country under martial law or not.

The information they disseminate at meetings is all about physical security, data security, situational awareness, having effective response plans in place, things like that.

The person who told Matthew Rothschild that members would have some kind of special "shoot to kill" license was either seriously misinformed or, as I suggested, playing games with Mr. Rothschild.

Our Security guy just sent me some samples of the daily reports InfraGard members receive. They are organized by sector (Energy, Chemical Industry, Transportation, etc.), and consist mostly of items from major news organizations like Reuters, AP, and The New York Times.

Please put your tinfoil hats away, folks. Nothing to see here.