All the Shuster hoopla about "misogyny".. two points of contention

[MessiahRp]

I know this will ignite flame wars but someone needed to bring this up.

1. Being "pimped" is not all about women. It is a common term for being used. This has been used in this way for at least a decade and a half. Maybe it's the fact that Hillary and her voters are so old they don't understand the slang but it's been that way for a long time.

2. All this talk about misogyny. A lot of people on here seem to throw that around very fucking loosely.

From Wikipedia: Misogyny (pronounced /mɪˈsɒʤɪni/) is hatred or strong prejudice against women

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Yeah I'm sure David Shuster has a strong hatred or prejudice against women.

Not to mention a lot of people on here take offense to things really quickly. A woman who is in a campaign where she puts herself and her family out there, and her daughter who happens to be 27, very capable of handling herself and is openly campaigning is suddenly off limits.

I feel the same way about Michelle Obama in case you're waiting to throw that cop out line out there.

If you are campaigning you are open to criticism, fair or unfair.

Nobody feels bad when the men who campaign are attacked. Even if it's just a son who isn't running for office themselves.

In fact society as a whole has committed a sort of reverse misogyny with how men are portrayed on TV, in books, on the radio and advertising... we are complete baffoons. Idiots who are always one-upped by the obviously smarter women. Treated by many as ready to sexually assault women on any given notice.

Read Susan Faludi's book "Stiffed".

I don't see any social outcry from men over this treatment. But on every critical comment towards a female there's some underlying ulterior motive to demean all women behind it.

Let's have a little perspective here.

David Shuster didn't call Chelsea a Whore, which BTW is still the demeaning term towards women that it has always been... he said she was being "pimped". He could have said the same thing about Bill and it would have the same meaning either way.

Rp

[papau]

1. Get real

[johnnydrama]

2. explain

Explain the title of "Pimp my Ride" in terms of misogny!

[MessiahRp]

7. Maybe Xzibit hates female cars!!!

Damn those female cars! :)

Rp

[papau]

40. "Pimp my Ride" is giving the finger to women while showing the women that like that attitude - the

groupies may not be whores - but they remind everyone I know of the whore mentality - indeed the flashy car riding pimp has been with us a long time.

[JVS]

44. I don't think pimping the ride has anything to do with prostitutes

It has to do with taking a vehicle and making it ostentatious and bombastic. These characteristics are similar to those of the proverbial overdressed and flashy pimp. Thus pimping a ride is making it reach the same level of garish excess thought to be displayed by a pimp.

[dchill]

10. You first!

[thunder rising]

3. I think the lady doth protest too loudly

[CTyankee]

4. And how many paragraphs have you devoted recently to Romney's "pimping" out of his sons?

Hmm?

I'm waiting for your answer...

[MessiahRp]

8. That's projecting what Shuster said onto me but okay..

1. I think the some parts of the media mocked Romney's sons especially when Romney made the bonehead remark that they were serving their country not by going to Iraq but instead by campaigning for him.

2. Campaigning leaves you open to attack, no matter who you are, what race you are, what gender you are.

If campaigning was fair John Kerry's outstanding service in the military would have been lauded instead of attacked why Captain AWOL got a free pass for running away from duty.

Rp

[CTyankee]

15. Actually, I was referring to your post which I found to be selective outrage.

Perhaps you did make a disparaging remark on DU, several paragraphs long, about Romney's "pimping" out his sons. If so, please post the link.

I await your answer.

[MessiahRp]

28. The irony is I am not the one with "selective outrage", rather I think the outrage is ridiculous.

Plus I don't think I ever considered Romney worth two sentences so I doubt I bothered to write about him or his spoiled brat sons.

Rp

[CTyankee]

32. QED. n/t

[blm]

5. It's become common slang to describe someone who is ON or shining or

decked out - kinda like the way they used the term IT girl not long ago.

It's still inappropriate for a newsman to use it, but the outrage IS overthetop.

[KoKo]

39. What about Rutgers Basketball Team being called "Napi Headed Ho's?"

Should we all talk this way? Common slang in the past decade. Would that be the Bush years and before when hate radio started? It's hate speech calling someone a Pimp or Whore. Remember when Imus called the Rutgers Basketball team...Napi Headed Ho's? Was that just slang and those young women should have laughed it off?

[Bluzmann57]

6. Why is it so unacceptable for Chelsea to campaign

But when Romney's strapping young lads were out touring the USA in an RV, no media said a damn thing about it? Sure seems like a double standard to me.

[earthside]

14. Former President's Daughter

That's why we pay more attention to her than Romney's progeny. Eight years we all spent watching her grow-up (we thought).

It is not unacceptable for Chelsea to campaign for her mom. But she is 27 years old and the Clinton(s) campaign is reacting like she was twelve.

So, either Clinton(s) is trying to play a little more victim politics here for advantage or ... what?

[MessiahRp]

33. Agreed. The outrage might be justified if she was a defenseless child.

She is 27 and can handle herself now. And hell, at 27 she probably understands the slang term meaning better than her 60 year old Mom. Of course Mom needs the publicity and sympathy so....

Rp

[papau]

41. The outrage is justified whenever an asshole calls a women a whore or inplies it

regardless of the womens age

[flyarm]

9. i guess someone forgot to tell the dictionary there was a change in definition

http://reference.aol.com/dictionary?dword=pimp&book=dictionary&suggestwords=no&startindex=0&detail=yes

Main Entry: 1pimp
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'pimp
Etymology: origin unknown
: a man who solicits clients for a prostitute

Pronunciation Key

More Information: Audio

oh but i guess this Edwards campiagner is too old to know how to use a dictionary.

fly

[dchill]

11. I'm sure you're aware...

of the broader usage of the term.

[MessiahRp]

13. From the Urban Dictionary:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pimped

2. pimped
- to have been used and abused

example: "You've been pimped and don't even know it!"

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. The meaning of words changes through use...

language is not a fixed thing that doesn't evolve.

If you were to look nat Samuel Johnson's dictionary, or Noah Webster's, you'd find quite a few words that have acquired additional or changed meanings in the past couple of centuries. And if you look here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pimp , 'to exploit' is given as a definition for 'pimp'(as a verb not a noun').

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. In this case, he used it as a verb.

And clearly he wasn't suggesting that the Clinton campaign was promoting Chelsea's role as a literal pimp.

[DJ13]

12. The Clinton campaign & their supporters missed what Schuster was implying

In this instance Schuster wasnt refering to selling for sex (no, he didnt say she was a "whore"), he was saying the Clintons were sending Chelsea out campaigning on her mothers behalf when its obvious she's not comfortable in that role.

In other words, the Clintons were "using" her.

Using someone is called "being pimped out" in modern slang.

[Sparkly]

20. No, it was quite obvious what he was implying.

Nobody thinks he was saying, literally, that she was having sex for money.

[melody]

16. Don't even try -- it's people in search of a rampage n/t

[Sparkly]

17. But he didn't say it about Bill Clinton.

He didn't say it about the Romney boys.

He said it about a young woman.

It's obvious he didn't mean it literally, and nobody is claiming he "called her a whore." It was a very insulting analogy nonetheless, and it was an analogy about her parents making her into a whore.

When a MAN is said to be "pimped out" by his parents, I'll take your concerns about "reverse misogyny" seriously.

[MessiahRp]

25. I think there was critical coverage of the Romney boys... thanks to their idiot father

His comments about them serving their country by campaigning for him rather than going to Iraq got a ton of criticism.

People say "pimped out" in relation to men all the time. This one made the news but it's ignorant to act as if nobody ever says such a thing about men being used by campaigns to gain support. (I knew people that thought Obama was pimping Ted Kennedy out to try to steal Massachussetts this past week)

The outrage is ridiculous and its obvious at this point with Hillary scraping for money that this is an opportunity to get some free, sympathetic media time.

If it's not she should go after her buddy McCain for the ugly comment or pretty much anything Limbaugh, FOX NEWS or any Republican pundits have said about her and her family.

Rp

[Sparkly]

26. Did someone say that, on television?

That Obama was "pimping out" Ted Kennedy??!?

I'd like to see that.

I thought it was outrageous when I first heard about it, which was not on DU.

[MessiahRp]

29. I don't know someone that works on TV

So obviously that's not where I got it from but I have a lot of political friends and some don't like Obama and it was one way to describe it. I think of Ted Kennedy as a political hero and it didn't offend me one bit.

Rp

[Sparkly]

34. So nobody said it on television.

Somebody said it about Senator Kennedy, and that didn't offend you. That's nice.

This is about a network commentator (on a network with many commentators who've made sexist remarks recently) saying a 27-year-old woman was "pimped out," by her parents. A very poor analogy that did offend people -- including their family.

It's not up to you, and your response to someone you can't even remember talking about two senators, to determine whether or not this is or ought to be offensive to others.

[MessiahRp]

35. Hmmm, I never said someone I can't remember...

Although I don't give up my friends' names when paraphrasing their discussions to people they don't know.

I doubt heavily it offended Chelsea (who was the target of the comment) as so much as it was an opportunity for free sympathetic media from Hillary who is struggling with money and needs all the free press she can get.

Rp

[Sparkly]

37. I thought you did -- but it's beside the point.

You don't know whether or not it offended Chelsea. It would have offended me! Moreover, her parents were also the targets of the comment, as they were likened to their daughter's pimp.

There's no evidence for your opinion. That might not change your opinion, but at least I hope you can recognize that you're simply guessing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. Misandry is the word for "reverse misogyny"

At least, this is how I interpret your meaning.

I think this is faux outrage. It's politics, and effective politics at that.

[Chovexani]

22. Interesting

I hear the same bullshit justifications from people (usually straight men) who cling to using the word "gay" to describe something stupid, no matter how many times LGBT tell them it's offensive.

The fact that you had to bring a horseshit "reverse sexism" argument into it tells me all I need to know about your sincerity.

[DinahMoeHum]

23. Sorry, but the word "pimp" is a lot like the N-word. . .

People can try to put a lot of spin on it, but at the end of the day, it is still a derogatory term, and especially if one applies it to women. And it's not even funny.

:thumbsdown:

[lonestarnot]

30. Wha? Now race?

:dilemma:

[hlthe2b]

24. Don't ya just love when males preach at women as to what they

should and should not find misogynistic and therefore offensive? :eyes:

Do you also deign to determine what is racist or disrespectful to those of other ethnic or racial minorities?

[Sparkly]

27. Thank you!!

[MessiahRp]

31. Sort of like when women say men should not be offended by how they are portrayed in culture either.

As it stands everyone is oversensitive and undersensitive at the same time.

Rp

[madrchsod]

36. if someone said that about me pimping out my daughter

i`d ..well i`m to old to kick anyones ass but her two 6`5 brothers would have a stern talk to whoever. i`m with you i just don`t get why they don`t see it. hell i have a hard time getting my 22 yr old daughter to understand she`s making the right decisions.

[Skittles]

43. yup

and they don't even realize they have no fucking clue

[Booster]

38. Nice try, but he could have used the word "used" instead.

[orleans]

42. so if someone said

"doesn't it seem as if your mom is sort of being pimped out in some weird sort of way?"

you wouldn't find that offensive?

an acquaintance comes over to your house and sees an exchange between your parents where your mother tells your father she just spent an hour making his dinner. and this acquaintance looks at you and says "doesn't it seem as if your mom is sort of being pimped out in some weird sort of way?"

not offensive? doesn't bother you?

or your acquaintance hears your wife telling you she picked up your shirts at the dry cleaners and says to you: "doesn't it seem as if your wife is sort of being pimped out in some weird sort of way?"

still not offensive?

how about in reference to your sister?
your sister keeps giving some guy a ride to school and your friend says to you: "doesn't it seem as if your sister is sort of being pimped out in some weird sort of way?"

not offensive?

what would you think if your friend said that about your brother who keeps giving his best friend (a male) a ride to school? "doesn't it seem as if your brother is sort of being pimped out in some weird sort of way?"

would you think he simply meant your brother was being used? or would you think there was some other type of reference going on there? and the same with your sister, or your wife, or your mother--is it only a reference to being used? or does it conjure up some sort of sexual tie-in?



(i'm assuming you don't have a daughter--but if you did, you wouldn't find that offensive if someone said that about your daughter?)

you and your neighbor are having a conversation on the sidewalk. your beautiful 17 year old daughter comes out of the house and heads to her car parked in the driveway. "bye, dad. i'm going to pick up joey."
you say: "bye honey. be careful."
you and your neighbor watch her drive off.
your neighbor says to you: "doesn't it seem as if your daughter is sort of being pimped out in some weird sort of way?"

do you say: "no, joey's a nice kid, he just doesn't have a car."
or do you say: "what the fuck are you talking about?"



does it even occur to you to say something like that about a male?

my 19 year old daughter understands the term as another word for "used" (as do we all) however, she also believes the only reason it occurred to shuster to use the expression "pimped out" was because he was using it in reference to a female. that, my friend, is sexist.

my daughter also thought it was very unprofessional of him to use such an expression.

[StarryNite]

45. Well said.

His implication was that her mother was using her. That was very unprofessional of him to say that. I'm quite sure Chelsea is helping her mother because she wants to. She is not being used.

[Ichingcarpenter]

46. Great point... however what I object to is that the use of the word

which makes anything " just an object'' which in itself is dehumanizing,
and makes that the object of the ''pimping'' expression


Sexist, for sure, dehumanizing yes,
I've even heard the term use on my garden, myself and animate
and inanimate objects which limits the experience
into a lack of expression of conscious absorption.


I hear it used by some neighbors who are the new MTV generation and I explain
to them what it really means.

He was wrong, he apologized, he thought it was hip
and he's not.

To me, the story is over.

[orleans]

47. how long was he suspended for? i haven't heard. do you know?

p.s. sorry about your neighbors...

[Ichingcarpenter]

51. My understanding was when all the apologies were completed

Keith apologized Friday, for his show, NBC, MSNBC to each of the Clintons by name.
I suspect he might be on next week but I haven't read anything solid on that.

My neighbors are just fine, they don't use that term around me anymore. They still
use Jonezing, which they can't really define, when I ask them what it means.

[MessiahRp]

50. It isn't that offensive at all... but I understand the slang and that's probably why.

Plus in some of those examples you used "pimped" in ways that really didn't make a lot of sense. The context is there but the way you used the term didn't fit how they were being pimped (according to the slang - urban dictionary).

Rp

[VotesForWomen]

48. FYI, men produce/write most of the shows with male 'bafoons.' nt

[MessiahRp]

49. Yeah because women, who consume sitcoms in large numbers, demand it

Shows with strong males will fail in the ratings and be cancelled.

Rp