On the november theft... err election

[nadinbrzezinski]

you know I have been truly thinking about it.

The press has done its job. We only have center right candidates running... no matter how you slice it

There is more... McCain -Clinton is the contest the media has wanted for over two years, and they have engineered this (george orwell would be proud). What is even more amazing is how many people don't get it...

What is worst... folks I don't expect "our candidate" to win... I expect the election to be stolen once again. Oh and I also expect "our leaders" to once again seat on their hands, while the new Republican President is inaugurated.

Yep, caging lists have started... as well as other dirty tricks.... so don't expect this to be clean... and I know some of you may want this to go to the dungeon... that I guess, is your right... denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Oh and eight states have determined the candidates, not even enough to even call it 1\4 of the voters nationally.

Nope, I don't expect anything to change, even if the dems will be better for MY pocketbook, but in issues that truly matter (cough, the war in Iraq, cough) their policies are very similar.

That does not mean I will stay home... as tempting as that may be.

I will vote.

The only reason is not love of country or civic duty. Leave that crap for people who believe that. Simply put I will vote to make them steal my vote.

At least I will have the quiet satisfaction that I did not make the election stealing easier by staying home.

But hope is gone

And democracy is a farce

Oh Cicero once wrote about the death of the Roman Republic, and even retired from its politics, realizing that in a new imperial age the nation chose emperors that would follow on the Imperial ideal. Any of the leading candidates will do that. regardless of party.

For many here this is just tinfoil thinking but alas the parallels to Rome (and other states) is too much. I guess we will soon hail Caesar, and forget about the Republic... and that is a sad state... oh and what's on Teevee? After all, we must continue to give the people bread and circuses.

[Glorfindel]

1. Sadly, sadly, I fear you're right

It's not who votes, it's who counts the votes that matters. Maybe it's for the best. At some point there's going to be a SPECTACULAR collapse, worse than the Great Depression. Should the Repukes be in power to take the blame and bear the consequences? I agree with you about voting. I'll be there, spitting into the wind, but voting nonetheless. Voting for a Democratic candidate for president in Mississippi is futile, but I've done it before and I'll do it again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. After the collapse, I believe BOTH parties will collapse

hell, the country might as well... like... Rome or the USSR

[BenDavid]

3. With one big ass smile I say you are wrong. The folks here at

du were crying loud after kerry said he was going to fight for every vote and then the next damn day threw in the towel. Then the folks here on DU said they wanted a fighter. A knife fighter. One that will not give the hell up. Well folks we have that fighter in the candidate as Hillary Rodham Clinton. She is aggressive and will not take chit from any republican nor any chit from any RNC. So you wanted a bear in this election of 08 and we got us a damn GRIZZLEY........

I fear that Obama is too much finesse to be a fighter. He will dazzle folks with his bullshit and baffle folks with his brillance, and we sure as hell do not need someone that is going to blame(if he is the nominee) be hollering race card, race baiting. He will be like the lil boy that hollered WOLF all the time.....You wanna lose in 08, then you stay with the trick pony, but if you really honestly want to win then you best go with HRC.

Hell, you do not have to like HRC. This is no, I would like to have a beer with so and so.The whore media played this game with the gullibles in 2000 and they helped give us bush. The so called liberal press was so far up bushes ass they went after gore with the gusto of a damn hound dog.....

Are we going to allow the whore media to take this election away from us that tells us daily what miracle obama has done or how many years mcCain was in a pow camp(well not exactly a camp but a hotel, w/o maid service) I say hell no not again......

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. When I see it I will believe it

the DLC fight... my ass

Just like they are fighting and following the people's wishes in the US House and Senate... after the 2006 election.

RIght...

If they were even trying to follow up on what we the people want, perhaps I'd be a tad less cynical. Let me correct myself, I'd be far less cynical

I am afraid that just as Cicero I have realized that all of this is bread and circus.

[Faux pas]

12. The media has already taken away my choices. The damage

has already been done. Having the choice of who the media has chosen is not winning.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Bingo and george orwell probably is going, I told you so, damn blokes!

[Faux pas]

26. For surely sure. Prophets' foresight seems to turn out to be

regulars folks' hindsight. Sad.

[Richard Steele]

15. You're living in a dream world. nm

[earth mom]

34. News flash for ya: Hillary is ONE OF THEM. She is a DINO aka a CORPORATIST!

The ONLY people she will be fighting for are corporations and the rich elite who own them! :puke:

[EFerrari]

4. Have you noticed that this time out we have a new category of voters -

the "late breakers"? With this meme, the corporate media can justify any outcome.

Yes, vote caging. Plus massive dumping of legit voter registration. Plus not processing new registrants. Plus a slow down in processing new citizen's paperwork.

If you are a student or in the military or a colorful person, CHECK YOUR REGISTRATION. YOU are being targeted, especially if you're in a swing state.

These bastards know they can't win. They HAVE to try to steal it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Funny you should mention students (or people in that age set)

my brother in law got a call from the California Republican Party. They are targeting his son

[water]

5. Moderate center-right is much better than the Republicans' authoritarian-right.

It's safe to assume that no matter who wins, they won't be able to govern from the left. Do you really think that either health-care proposal will pass? Give me a break! Both will end up like Bill Clinton. Both would be popular center-right politicians, much like Clinton.

However, Republicans would govern as they normally do -- high spending (especially military-spending), while writing regulations and tax codes that favor larger businesses over smaller ones.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Never mind Americans want single payer, national health care

see the problem here?

[water]

9. If most Americans really wanted it, they could get together and set up a voluntary program.

You can't take a far-left sample of people (here) and act like they represent the entire country. DK would be winning the primaries if DU was actually representative of the party, let alone the country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. National polls, look them up

people WANT single payer national health care.

I am not talking about DU, but NATIONAL POLLS... where over fifty five percent, at times all the way to sixty percent want it.

[water]

11. I'd be interested to see those!

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Just a sampling, some old

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/stories/data102003.html

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

http://www.pollingreport.com/health3.htm

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1114

By the way, both Physitians for national health care and Quinnipac have the best point

And reality is, americans are still woefully propagandized about the Canadian system

[water]

18. Those polls show that people hate the current system (pretty much everyone does)...

... it's like saying "Who would you prefer to live under, Bush or Reagan?" and then taking the 60%+ Reagan vote as proof most people want Reagan back.

Those polls also showed that people still feel our system is better than Canada's, which as you pointed as is interesting.

I don't know much about it, but I do know that the UK and France are having big problems with their systems right now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. You can go search for more

there are more out there....

I just gave you a smaple

Suffice it to say... that feeling is NOT a DU feeling

[EFerrari]

17. No. The average poster here is a moderate suburban

middle aged white woman. Not far left where I live. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. You know the DLC likes to tell itself this legend

that DU is far left

We both know it

:-)

[water]

29. How else would you explain the support for DK and JK, two far left candidates?

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. First off you do not know fear left

I do... this country's band of political activism (accepted that is) goes from the far right to the center left in most countries, Yes, DK is center left, not left... let alone radical left. In fact that band of activism is VERY NARROW... because people have been propangadized to be afraid of commies and they don't know the difference between a commie and a socialist

Second the DLC is CENTER RIGHT

And the country has been pushed increasingly to the EXTREME RIGHT by the policies of the RNC, and the DLC...

That is a fact

To the point that moderates to the left are seen by folks like you as radicals

Taking a good course on poli sci would help. Traveling to countries with a healthy far left opposition would help too. I grew up in one with a very heathy real left...

Third off, this place has many folks who are VOCAL who are either modern progressives, or proud classic liberals. I know that is radical for the DLC anyway... after all So are Jefferson and Madison and the rest of the band who were also classic liberals. I'l save you this, they were also lefties by the standards of the age... in fact they were radicals... I mean no king, how much more radical can you get?

[water]

31. You can't use that spectrum.

You have to look at the direction each person wants to take the country, and how quickly.

Using your logic, reformers in Communist countries are center-left, when in reality, you must work with the system.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Once again, TAKE A POLI SCI COURSE

when analyzing countries and how far their political conversation goes THAT is the spectrum used

The US IS A RIGHT WING COUNTRY, going further to the right every administration... and diminishing (in fact silencing) progressive or classic liberal thinking. By the way, that is a hallmark of authoritarian nations with fascistic tendencies... and the DLC is fine with that

Oh and let me add, the course is called comparative government and it is usually offered at most poli sci departments under that tittle in the 100 series

[water]

38. Calm down. :)

Just because it's the most common spectrum used doesn't mean it's the best.

Think about it: why is the absolute position of someone's platform more important than the direction they want to take the country?

If John Edwards were running for office in Eastern Europe, Hong Kong, etc., he wouldn't go around advocating the same platform with the same American-style progressive tax brackets! He would need to take things incrementally. That wouldn't make him any less leftist.

This is the big question: If these people were running in Europe, would that advocate less government and smaller taxes? NOPE! They'd advocate the opposite.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. I am calmed down... I just pointed to a reality

and how political scientists and historians work.

Sorry, professional hazard

Regardless this country is RIGHT WING... with fascistic tendencies.

And yes, if a neoliberal runs in europe they DO advocate less government and smaller taxes, see Zarkozy in France.

DLC is Neoliberal... and the extreme wing of the RNC is fascist

[water]

40. If I agreed that HC, DK, JE, or BO running in Europe would run on the right than I'd agree...

...with your main point.

Here is another way of looking at it: If any of those candidates were elected and somehow got their current platforms enacted, would they stop there? Or would they push for more?

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Denis Kucinich would run in ANY liberal party in Europe

he is left of center and for example in the UK he is a classic for Labor... Hillary Clinton belongs in the party of Thatcher

But you said that in Europe nobody runs on lower taxes and smaller government... I gave you Sarkozy as an example, will give you a second one... the current PM of Germany, she also ran on lower taxes and smaller government

[water]

42. No no no, I know they do!

If Sarkozy ran in the United States, he'd be a Republican, though his platform is to the left of the Democrats.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. No it is not, his platform is to the right of classic liberals

he is a neo liberal, don't get confused by the term.

Go read

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/econ101/neoliberalDefined.html

And this is an excellent compare and contrast

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/neoliberalism.html

By the way, there is a reason why the term is rarely, if evah, used in the US... never mind the Chicago school is where it started under Friedman

[LWolf]

27. Never mind that my votes are reserved for

those who are left of center. A moderate center-left would be a good start. Since there are none left on the ticket, I'll write one in.

[Richard Steele]

16. K&R

[Helga Scow Stern]

21. Super Tuesday won't be what it seems.

The primaries have already been manipulated.

[Kurovski]

22. K&R.

At this point I can only be pleasantly surprised. I have absolutely no capacity left for surprise in the other direction.

[TheWatcher]

23. K&R.

Thank You.

Most simply cannot face it, they don't want to hear it, and they can't allow themselves to believe it.

Today's tinfoil is not Tomorrow's Reality.

It is TODAY'S Reality, and too many of us are in denial about it.

[leftofthedial]

24. that's the only reason to vote

it's what i said in 2006. Make them steal it.

[tavalon]

25. I agree that HRC is the anointed one on "our" side

and McCain on "their" side. I think "our" side will win, though I'm coming to doubt that that makes a good goddam bit of difference.

[LWolf]

28. I agree.

I'll write in a left-of-center candidate for the very reasons you mention.

Meanwhile, hope for POSITIVE change is out the window.

[malaise]

32. Said media said Rethugs would win in 2006

Said media benefits from Rethugs in power. Said media also knows all polls show Americans are fed up of Rethugs. Dems won't lose in November.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Dems should NOT loose, but I am counting on them STEALING the election

prepare for the worst and be surprised and glad when it does not happen

[earth mom]

33. If Orwell were alive, he would change the name of his book to 2008 instead of 1984.

If Edwards is totally out (not so sure yet since people will still vote for him/write him in) then McCain is DONE DEAL folks!

Wake up and smell the corruption! :grr:

[MissDeeds]

35. Exactly

Controlled choices are not choices. Voters need to wake up.

[kineneb]

44. I will be making a protest vote

Edwards is on my ballot, and damnit, I am going to vote for him. Not that he was my first choice, but there it is.

There are propositions on our ballot, which are slightly less prone to fudging, so my vote might be worth something. I will be voting for the casinos and the college students, so I can tinkle in everyone's Wheaties. Might as well screw with "their" minds while I am at it. Break out the monkeywrenches.

We are already screwed. In the big picture, it will not really matter who wins. The Titanic is heading full speed for the iceburg, while we argue about the arrangement of the deck chairs. Like several elections ago: "It is the Economy, stupid."