I'm incredibly ignorant about McCain. How evil is he?

[baby_mouse]

Is he Reagan-style economic society-stripping monster, or Bush style plain stupid selfish moron or what?

I know that there are a lot of threads out there about what he's done comparing him to Joe Leiberman, bit I'm having real difficulty establishing what sort of right wing ideologist he is. He doesn't seem to be anything. People say hes a hawk, but I've heard nothing about actual wars with actual people he actually wants. He has said, it seems; "People, there wil be more wars". Well, so have people on this very website. (The apparent equivalance extractable from that last comment could well be based on my pure ignorance, be assured, please, that I suspect it is.)

Could people, should they feel motivated so to do, gather some "McCain-as-Republican" rather than "McCain-as-Lieberman-of-the-Right" observations in this thread? I would be most grateful, as I have no clear picture of the guy at *all*.

(I realise many of you will flame me, this is fine. If you aren't able to say WHY you think McCain's problematic and are only able to make unconstructive assumptions about what *I* am, it's actually no skin off my nose, Ill just put you straight on ignore.)

[lvx35]

1. Well, have you ever heard that quote about the BANALITY of evil?

That's McCain. There's nothing sexy, nothing revolting, nothing outstanding, just the wrong person at the really wrong time. The simple fact is that he's not enough of ANYTHING to significantly change course, at a time when when America knows a firm change of course its what's needed.

EDIT: More thoughts: There is a certain muscle to our candidates right now. McCain is in this middle place, acknowledging the reality of global warming, but also saying the corporations contributing to it need less regulation and less taxes. This makes him in my mind, weak: He is Cassandra, able to make predictions about the effects of our actions but not to convince people, to act on them.


The bottom line is that the problem with McCain is a "big picture" problem, not some little issue that can be reduced to a sound byte. But we've got a smart and aware electorate this time around who I think can see these things.

[baby_mouse]

4. ....

It worries me that you say that.

Not because I don't buy into the idea, I do, definitely, but just that if it's true it leaves the Dem nominee with a problem, it can be hard to fight against a candidate perceived to represent banality or the status quo, even if its a banality or status quo that's damaging, particularly after a very turbulent period, and Bush has been turbulent. This is a bit of a generalisation, but people rarely vote for change, and even more rarely vote for change for the better, there has to be a nation-wide ground-swell across all dynamics before people vote in a proper paradigm shifting leader. People usually vote for *more of the same*. It may be that Bush has sufficiently covered his tracks to pave the way for cuddly-looking John, we all know what Bush is like, but both we and the freaks on the other side forget the blithely middle that does all the actual voting, usually based on nice hair or teeth, all they know about Bush, really, is that he's the president, maybe along with one or two other "factoids". John could very easily slip in under their radar and start doing hideous things.

My worry is that I don't know what those hideous things are.

[lvx35]

10. What, do you want me to say McCain is strong?

McCain is strong. He is. We have to take him seriously. But on the surface, you have whiteness and militancy. This is a bad combination, that makes us yawn. But its a superficial level.

As far as deeper analysis, well the holy Qabalah states that there are two kinds of evil, active and passive. Active evils sets out to make bad things happen, passive evil is the complacency that LETS bad things happen. I think McCain is the latter. He's been standing around in DC for years, letting things happen, letting them slide by. I think as president he would continue this trend.

Perhaps the strongest argument against McCain at this moment is that he would be a bleachers president, a bench president, a cheerleader for the evil that's gone down in the past.

[Bongo Prophet]

2. Very.

He is a very bad combination of the worst of all of these traits, and with a "cover" as a straight talker.

I hope others give you links to help in your search for details, to dig through the fluff and get to the important parts.
I don't have time right now, but have seen him over the long haul - from keeting five to covering his ass in Abramoff hearings, his kneejerk militarism or racism (hating all "gooks" for his treatment in the camp)

Military familt, father was an admiral - and he rained death on a sovereign nation quite easily, which made him a "hero" - actually shows how he can easily "dehumanize" and objectify "the bad guys"...even though he complains about torture, he then caves, just like Spector does.

Oh I could go on, but you have a thematic start.

You should go and do some research, bring it back and share - it seems you have the motivation to do so.
that would be great, as it is likely that the media will be rooting for Mr. straight talk.


Oh, and PS:
"Bomb bomb, Iran. Heh heh"

[baby_mouse]

5. Well, yeah, that all sounds pretty bad, but what does he want to do?

I've looked all over the place, honestly, and I still have no idea what he wants to DO.

[lurky]

3. Economically, he's like Reagan.

Militarily, he's like Bush. He's socially conservative, although he's not a complete freaking evangeloid like Huckabee.

The real reason R establishment hates him, IMO, is because he has worked on campaign finance reform. This is a threat both to the industries that use corruption to get whatever they want and to the Republican players who get fat at the corporate trough. The first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club. McCain talked about Fight Club.

[baby_mouse]

6. Ugh, but also....wuh?

campaign finance reform is... uhh.... pretty significant.

I mean, that's a really pretty important thing for the Right.

Um.

[Liberal In Texas]

7. Pretty EVIL. He wants to occupy Iraq for the next century.

Not only evil, but stupid.

You weren't planning on voting for him, were you?

[baby_mouse]

9. No! I can't, anyway.

But aren't Hillary and Obama also planning on staying in Iraq?

Still, if it's not for as long I suppose that's good, it's just that if McCain's to be the enemy I don't think I know enough about him. I'm beginning to think that WE don't know enough about him.

[Liberal In Texas]

13. He's the enemy. One of many. Make no mistake.

He is a poison snake in the grass.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. No. What is wrong with you?

Both Clinton and Obama have clearly indicated that they intend to get us out of Iraq. Neither has committed to a specific timetable, as Edwards did, and both have left some wiggle room about what 'out' means. McCain is a total Hawk - he intends to have 'victory', without of course any specific definition of what that is, claims that the surge is working, and has announced that we will stay in Iraq for 1,000 years if that is what is required. McCain has voted for every Iraq occupation funding bill and against all attempts to limit our presence there. McCain is quite clear that he intends to force Iran and Syria to submit to our unilateral authority as well. For McCain the lesson of Iraq is quite clear: lets have more.

[baby_mouse]

23. Well, there we are, then.

Thank you.

[Hissyspit]

8. He got some people killed in Iraq after one of his propaganda trips there

last year to a market. Can't look for a link right now - maybe someone else can?

[Liberal In Texas]

12. Who needs a link?

This is like saying I need a link to prove that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

Not only was he escorted by ground troops on his little walk, but helicopter gunships. Then, the next day the people in the market that dealt with the Americans were slaughtered.

Nice place to tour. Or live. (Maybe.)

[radfringe]

11. think - bush with a brain n/t

[DLnyc]

14. McCain is a not particularly sharp air force pilot who got elected by

being shot down in Vietnam. As a sort of 'outsider' he once had some credibility as a reformer within the rethugnican party, but made an amazing ass of himself kowtowing to the shrub administration. It seems clear now, as other posters have pointed out, that he is pretty much of a weakling who will be led by whatever powerful forces want to push him this way and that. Sort of like shrub, sadly, in this way: he is just a face to mask the bloody actors behind him. His transformation from 'maverick' to yes-boy for the shrub administration convinces me that he is dangerously weak and manipulatible.

[Liberal In Texas]

15. He's a todie. A syncophant. He blows with the wind.

As a US President, he would be a disaster. Like Little Boots.

[Disturbed]

16. McCain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_John_McCain

[DLnyc]

25. Great link. Lots of solid info on McCain. Thank you.

My summary after reading it:
1. McCain is all over the place on a number of issues, often going from complete support to complete opposition, or visa versa.
2. In many areas he is a hardline traditional rethug: a longtime hawk, supports death penalty, supports 'war on drugs'
3. Possibly because he needs hispanic vote in Arizona to stay in the Senate, he has angered other conservatives by being somewhat moderate on immigration.
4. In the past, he has been a republican who was willing to stand up and oppose the BushCo madness--but he seems to have abandoned that stance in order to run for president.
5. His caving in on the torture issue (after being a POW himself) is outright nauseating, in my opinion:
-------
McCain, whose six years of captivity and torture in Vietnam made him a national celebrity, negotiated (in September 2006) a compromise in the Senate for the Military Commissions Act of 2006, suspending habeas corpus provisions for anyone deemed by the Executive Branch an "unlawful combatant" and barring them from challenging their detentions in court. Coming on the heels of a Supreme Court decision adverse to the White House, McCain's compromise gave a retroactive, nine-year immunity to U.S. officials who authorized, ordered, or committed acts of torture and abuse, and permitted the use of statements obtained through torture to be used in military tribunals so long as the abuse took place by December 30, 2005.<22> McCain's compromise permitted the President to establish permissible interrogation techniques and to "interpret the meaning and application" of international Geneva Convention standards, so long as the coercion fell short of "serious" bodily or psychological injury.<23> Widely dubbed McCain's "torture compromise", the bill was signed into law by George W. Bush on October 17, 2006, shortly before the 2006 midterm elections.
----------

All in all: Though not as rabid as the Bush-Cheney neocon types, McCain is conservative in several dangerous ways. His various 'maverick' positions make him look moderate, but when push comes to shove he does the wrong thing almost always.

[Thothmes]

20. McCain was not in the air force. He was a naval pilot

[DLnyc]

24. Yes, sorry, my bad. He was a Navy pilot.

Interesting, from Wikipedia, his father and grandfather were also Navy. Not much innovation in that family, I would say:

John S. McCain, Sr. (1884-1945), United States Navy vice admiral
John S. McCain, Jr. (1911-1981), United States Navy four-star admiral, son of John S. McCain, Sr.
John McCain (born 1936), American Senator, 2000 and 2008 Presidential candidate, former Navy Fighter Pilot, Vietnam POW, son of John S. McCain, Jr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCain

[TexasObserver]

17. A Maverick in the Republican party votes wrong only 90% of time

See, it only takes a guy voting sanely about 10% of the time before he's labeled a "Maverick" by Republicans.

He's crossed the aisle on a handful of issues, and that's it. He's already betrayed his commitment to immigration and completely backtracked on that.

The biggest problem with McCain is his absolute certainty that he is right about everything. The last thing we need is one more term of that. The second biggest problem with McCain is he thinks he is some kind of Military genius, when he's not. Like George HW Bush, he didn't learn that pilots who get shot down probably aren't the best pilots. I know that is harsh, but it's true.

He's not moderate. He's dangerous.

[Vinca]

19. I don't think he's so much evil as dim witted.

After the slurs of the 2000 election in which Bushco accused his black daughter of being the product of an extramarital affair (as opposed to the pathetic kid from a poor country in need of cleft palate surgery that she was), McCain turned into a Bush sycophant, most famously shown giving the War Criminal-In-Chief a giant bear hug. Now he's latched on to the war meme, kind of a day late and a dollar short since the vast majority of Americans want us out of there. Maybe the dim wittedness I'm observing is the beginnings of senile dementia, but if I hear "my friends" one more time my television screen will be in peril.

[B Calm]

21. He’s an amazingly dumb shit! Look at the way he pandered to

the religious right.

[L. Coyote]

22. If he gets the nomination, that secret will be prompltly revealed

If it gets out now, he will not get either nod. :rofl: