I am so fuc*ing sick of the consumer being blamed for the recession!

[Earth_First]

Honestly, I am so pissed off I do not know how to respond. :grr:

[gateley]

1. Here...

:grr::grr: (pretend they're hugging - I'm with you.)

[Kutjara]

2. Of course the consumer is to blame.

After all, our entire economy is based on the principle of transforming precious, non-renewable natural resources into festive cocktail umbrellas. After the capitalists have gone to all the trouble of making the latest and greatest new and improved turnip-twaddler, it is the consumer's sworn duty to buy same, regardless of utility or need. Failure to do so is disloyalty tantamount to treason. Every piece of crap that is produced must be bought. It's the American way.

Honestly, this is so basic. Weren't you paying attention in primary school?

[Earth_First]

3. No. I was too busy being indoctrinated. n/t

[Kutjara]

5. OK, you're forgiven. Now go out and buy something. n/t

[Deja Q]

4. Bought and used; I'm trying to start my own consulting business...

It'll be a while but if the big box stores would stick to selling big boxes, then we could do things too, earn money to spend on our trades, and not have to live in cardboard boxes?

[Skittles]

15. great answer

I think I failed to be converted because I was raised by a depression-era survivor and a WWII bombing survivor who taught me not to want things I did not need

[reggie the dog]

32. That is a great value

My partents taught me that and my kids will learn the same from me.

[ProfessorGAC]

21. Hyperbolic Nonsense

At the granular level all forms of economics work this way. It's not the American way. It's the human social way.

Capitalism, socialism, any-ism. Same graunlar phenomenon. Some people must produce. Others must consume.

That's how it works unless one longs for a return to the 5th century when everyone just produced and consumed their own goods. Then;

you get old and can't produce for yourself anymore. Dead.

If you get hurt and can't produce for yourself anymore. Dead.

If you get killed and your kids are too little to produce for themselves. Dead.

Not exactly a time to for which to long fondly, is it?

But, all systems of exchange work in the same way. This is not a "blame america" issue. We've got enough of those. This isn't one of them. This is merely how humans interact financially and economically in any large social system.
The Professor

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

29. How dare you

turn a perfectly good rant into nothing with the light of reason..

[Kutjara]

35. If you consider empty circular arguments to be "the light of reason..."

...then you truly are a Good American.

[Kutjara]

34. So you assume the inevitability of the system you are seeking...

...to defend, and then assert that assumption as proof of the system's inevitability? Remind me never to sign up for one of your classes, "Professor," unless perhaps you teach rhetoric.

Your argument seems to be that no other systems except ones driven by extreme production and consumption are possible without returning "to the 5th Century when everyone just produced and consumed their own goods." Leaving aside completely the mis-characterization of the 5th Century, suffice to say voracious capitalism or subsistence living are not the only games in town.

What you may have missed in my post was the implied point that we don't just produce what is necessary for a decent national standard of living. We overproduce, constantly churning out gigatons of crap that nobody needs or even wants. To do this, we pollute the environment, deplete precious resources, and push the middle class into penury, all in pursuit of some blandly aspirational "lifestyle" goals. Capitalists pay homage to the "invisible hand" and "competition" as the ultimate mechanisms of efficiency, but these are so skewed by policy, corruption, and monopolistic practices as to be utterly ineffective. There are no brakes on this runaway train, save perhaps the carrying capacity of the planet itself; and that is quickly being reached.

The average American consumes 3 times the energy of the average European and 300 times that of the average "third world" resident. Much of this excess consumption goes into the production of "consumer goods." Worse, our national obsession with consumption has become something for the developing world to aspire to, with often disastrous consequences.

Still think it's "merely how humans interact financially and economically in any large social system?" Funny how we seem to need to do it 3-300 times as much as everyone else. While overproduction and its evil twin, consumer mania, may not be an exclusively American phenomena any more, we are the world's leading exemplar of the malaise.

[ProfessorGAC]

44. Duh!

Yeah. You shouldn't take any of my classes. You don't have the analytical thought process to handle them.

And, by the way: You made up those numbers about consumption. Look at per capita consumption in the EU and tell me where 3 to 300 came from. If the best you can do is to insult other posters and then make things up to support your two dimensional views, don't bother replying. You're irretrievable.

The Professor

[Kutjara]

45. It's a bit rich...

...to be complaining about being insulted when your very first reply was entitled "hyperbolic nonsense." If you can't take the heat, chum...well, you know the rest of the saying.

As for my "made up" numbers, you might want to see if your "school" offers remedial reading classes. The 3x figure was for the EU. 300x was for the developing world. Try reading my first post again, and see if you can understand it better this time. As for supporting evidence, try this:

http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator.cfm?IndicatorID=146&country=US#rowUS

The numbers I originally quoted were from a London Times article I read back in the 90s, so they are slightly out of date. The more recent data in the chart above shows that the gap between the US and the EU has narrowed a bit to about 2-2.5X, but the difference is still stark. If you compare our energy use (about 8,000 kg per capita) with that of Chad (5 kg) or Uganda (25 kg), you can see that the 300X figure quoted for the developing world is not unreasonable.

Even more recent (2006) data from the US Government puts per capita energy consumption in the US at 11.7KWh, compared to 6KWh in the EU and <0.5KWh for the developing world. Again, we are using twice as much energy as the developed world, and tens of times more than the developing world.

The only countries that use more than us are Canada (whose small population makes it a fairly modest energy user overall), some outlying island states with negligible populations (which don't benefit from economies of scale in energy production and have high transportation costs), and two oil-rich principalities that presumably spray the stuff around in lieu of weed-killer.

For another perspective, try looking at the UN Population Fund's website, www.unfpa.org. Their take on the matter:

<snip>

During the 1990s, one U.S. citizen was consuming 30 times what one citizen of India did; developed nations were 20% of the world's population yet used two-thirds of all resources and generated 75% of the world's pollution and waste. (1) World consumption patterns were undermining the environmental resource base.

Yet the 1 billion people living in absolute poverty require increased consumption so as to alleviate their malnutrition, disease and illiteracy.

Consumption disparities are increasingly stark:

- With world population at 6 billion and rising, the richest 20% of humanity consumes 86% of all goods and services used, while the poorest fifth consumes just 1.3%. The wealthy consume 45% of all meat and fish, use 58% of all energy produced and own 87% of the vehicles. (2)
- Meanwhile, 2.6 billion people lack basic sanitation, 1.3 billion have no access to clean water, 1.1 billion lack adequate housing and nearly 900 million have no access to modern health services of any kind.
- According to the United Nations, Americans and Europeans together spend $17 billion a year on pet food, $4 billion more than the estimated yearly additional amount needed to provide everyone in the world with basic health and nutrition.

<snip>

Still think it's all good? Enjoy that Hummer while you can.

[underpants]

26. A turnip-twaddler on every kitchen table!!!!

:bounce:

This reminds me I need to go get some more festive concktail umbrellas. My wife always gets the unfestive type. :grr:

:rofl:

[Fresh_Start]

6. It was my plan ever since 2004

once Bush was reelected (however fraudulently)

I couldn't go on tax protest because I'm a wage slave
But I could stop shopping
At least doubled my savings rate
Because I figured the only thing that would make Bush's journey rocky was to expose the rotten at the core economy for what it was

[LSparkle]

8. Yeah, and now they're saying we need to SPEND those rebates

not pay off debt or save or do something REALLY productive with them ...

[Fresh_Start]

9. we won't get a rebate so thats not a problem for me

but honestly, if you can bank it...save until the Democratic President is in power
let it appear that the Democratic President saved the economy, not that Bush had it under control

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

28. It will be a cold day..

I have a 2yo and a 1yo those rebates are going into either CD's or Bonds...

Thats assuming I will get any rebate at all (Single Earner making 90K)

[jedr]

7. After 7 yrs of rising energy costs ,heath care and insurance,

You ran out of money....how dare you! Their pockets we're just getting full.

[ileus]

11. You forgot food prices....

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. Me too. The rich took all the money and they're not spending it....

... but the rest of the country, who as a result has less money than ever, gets blamed for not spending. What are they going to spend? AIR? The F rich have all the money! Let THEM spend it!

[sutz12]

16. Oh they spend it...those vacations on the Cote d'Azure are expensive. nt

:)

[reggie the dog]

33. yeah they are

Considering one Euro is worth 1.48. But hey, folks like me, that live 30 miles away from the coast along the Cote d'Azur live off of vacationers. Our econmy is already weak here in the Var. The prospects of a world wide recession, while enabling me to get to the beach with less traffic jams, may cost us many tourist jobs as people go to less expensive beaches along the Black sea in Bulgaria and Romania, 2 EU states that are not yet part of the Euro zone. Thats how trickle down works, you have to be cheaper than the others, or the little money that does trickle down trickles elsewhere.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

39. Yep, they just don't spend it here. nt

[moondust]

22. Concentration of wealth

may be good for feudalism but it's an awful thing for a consumer economy. Republicans just haven't figured that out yet.

[Chovexani]

38. They've managed to bring back serfdom

They just call it Wal-Mart now.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

40. Rich Republicans sure have! nt

[Art_from_Ark]

12. Last time I was in the States, I did my part

I spent what, 300 dollars? Maybe 400. But it was almost all for American-made stuff-- books and food. Yay, me.

[KillCapitalism]

13. Hmmm, maybe let some more needed wealth "trickle down" to us consumers.

Real wages have been declining for years for the poor, working, and middle classes, so the result is obvious. If I can figure that out, then anyone can.

[Skittles]

14. stop whining and start shopping, Earth_First

why do you hate Amurka?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

17. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't

If we spend, we don't save and then it's our fault for going into debt and not having a nest egg.

If we save, we get screwed when the market tanks, inflation goes up, and our savings and retirement plans are worthless. And we're not supporting the economy through patriotic consumer spending.

We're always wrong and the rich are always right. Just ask some of the DUers who show up without fail to defend the plutocrats.

[NMMNG]

18. Screw that

Let Chimpy McCokespoon and his rich friends go out and stimulate the economy. They're the ones with all the money. I'm sure their Grand Cayman Islands bank accounts won't suffer any.

[Greyhound]

19. Oh, they're spending alright. They're buying and building production

facilities all over the 3rd world.

Soon, they'll come back and start snatching up all of the foreclosed real estate after we've paid the depreciation on it.

They have already stolen most of the "intellectual properties" we've created.

"Our" government has spent the last 30 years giving away our most valuable infrastructure and resources to them.

The sad fact is that there just isn't that much left for them to take here, so they've turned their sights toward the next "emerging markets" (that are emerging because the American taxpayer paid for the infrastructure), China and India.

[earth mom]

20. Yes-Damn those consumers who aren't buying American made goods!

Better buy MORE of that Chinese made crap! :grr:

[BuelahWitch]

23. How can we spend money on more "stuff"

when it all goes to paying bills? I've been saying for years that sooner or later these outsource lovers will figure out that people who work for $7 or 8 an hour cannot purchase the stuff they're making off shore. So they save money by employing slaves in China, but who's going to buy it? These assholes need to catch a clue...

[earth mom]

24. Let them shop at thrift stores, let them eat cake...

it's already biting them in the a$$. Too bad-NOT! :grr:

[lazyriver]

25. I had a rather intense phone debate with my sister on this

issue last night. We were talking politics and the recession came up...well I brought it up. She says, "This whole thing would be over and everything would turn around in a month or two if everybody would just take $100 per week out of the bank, go to dinner somewhere and buy a few things". Since she is a very intelligent person, I was floored until I remembered to her and her husband, $400/month is no big deal. They probably spend twice that on dining out and movies in a typical month. They live in such a bubble and she honestly didn't realize that most of us don't live the same way. I mentioned the high prices of heating oil, gas, groceries and life's other necessities. She honestly sounded shocked when I told her heating oil is $1.30/gallon over last year and groceries are up at least 20%. She hadn't even noticed. I asked where she thought eveybody would come up with this extra $100/week. Her answer: "Just take it out of their bank accounts. Holding on to all your money is bad for the country right now".

I have much work to do.

[tabasco]

27. Same as those who blame the customers for failing US auto companies.

They roll out crap and expect us to buy it out of "patriotism" and "loyalty" when those companies have done nothing but fight efficiency standards and offshore jobs.

[L. Coyote]

30. Converting to sustainable economics is a good thing! Ending consumerism is a good thing!

Unless you are dependent on advertisers.

[reggie the dog]

31. who can consume like they could a few years ago???

I spend a higher percentage of my wage on lodging, fuel for the cars, energy, and food than I did three years ago. My wage has not gone up to keep up with inflation, so I consume less "extras" than before. Hell I even cut the money for my weed habit by 75% a month.

[mentalsolstice]

36. Buy brown shirts and knee-high boots!

Buy lots of 'em! :sarcasm:

[End Of The Road]

37. Here's how I'm going to respond

When I get that check from the gov't to stimulate the economy, it's going into my IRA. I'm not even going to use it to pay down my credit cards, which was my original intent. Ha! Screw them and all their horses.

[MattSh]

41. I'm fuc*ing sick and tired of Americans being called consumers.

They're citizens, damnit. You're citizens too. Stop this fucking consumer nonsense.

Citizens can change a country. Consumers can only, well, consume.

[bridgit]

42. hahahahahaha = I do = why the hell should I be made to float this phony bologna economy...

by having to be *made* to buy Benetton sweaters, or Levis for that matter; from China @ exorbitant prices based upon bush's tax cuts to the ultra wealthy, and out sourced labor fuck'em!! :thumbsdown:

[yorgatron]

43. i'm going to start a guillotine building business.

somehing we've gone without for far too long.